/r/Permaculture

Photograph via snooOG

A community for likeminded individuals to discuss permaculture and sustainable living. Permaculture (Permanent Culture) is an ecological design system coined in Australia by David Holmgren and Bill Mollison and based on Aboriginal Tasmanian belief systems.

Permaculture (Permanent-Culture): A practical design philosophy intended to help us live and prosper in an environment, while working with nature in a positive way, using solutions based on careful observation of natural ecosystems and common sense. This can include food and energy production, shelter, resource management, nature conservation and community living.


You can find our wiki here


Please Read Before Posting:

It's pretty often that we see questions along the lines of, "I want to do X--what are the species/structures to get it done?" This isn't a bad question but there's not enough information to give a decent answer. When submitting a question, there is some information that ought to be included, such as:

  • Climate/Latitude/Elevation
  • What's already growing on the land in question
  • Topography--mountain, rolling hills, plains...
  • Water features--average rainfall, streams/ponds, etc.
  • Legal restrictions
  • Solar orientation
  • Soil conditions
  • Site history

This is the kind of stuff a permaculture consultant wants to know before doing a site visit/design/recommendation. And while no one is going to get a professional job done over reddit, better questions will lead to better answers.


Related Subreddits:

/r/Permaculture

285,420 Subscribers

53

Reuters, Snopes and others have debunked the “myth” that brown corrugated shipping cardboard contains toxic chemicals like dioxin.

It’s garden prep season, and yet again, the debunked myths about brown corrugated cardboard containing toxins and being bad for soil are cycling around.

These myths have been investigated by Snopes, Reuters, and others and found to be false. And it’s worth mentioning that both outlets often award “partially true” and “misleading” conclusions, but in this case, both just call the claims straight false.

Snopes: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/amazon-spray-boxes-chemicals/?fbclid=IwAR35YoenePXfxbCsj3ey-5oAcP7oO-69GyMGYsdH-BF69jvzeCdWbGbwDlQ_aem_AWWeg7WmPqLWsrwlTt9jtNqIXE2ZmoF1nbZkOZ4f4T8Z4aZRTlMRUhWU0Lfmjbdf0RMmsOMGWfREgLPuQp0ifIt-

Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1N2RP23R/?fbclid=IwAR1AbdpzYpfdyFl1_ifTNzi_o4fojWbrZaLbJScAGAj6rBHctwxGdaaQu6s_aem_AWUhzvINbvDCSUbsumbP_2vyFY9QwhHnwJcg8yaN8AVbqcqw1NU49lq6HJJugHUGWdD8lctVsPCCXMdZgrAjO9UL

Many shipping manufacturers also weigh in, promoting the recycling and use of their boxes as safe, and say the boxes contain nothing harmful to soil or organisms: https://www.hammondpaper.com/blog/post/hp-the-role-of-paperboard-in-agriculture

So, what’s in brown, corrugated cardboard shipping boxes?

According to Reuters, Snopes, etc.: Wood pulp and plant starches, usually from corn or root vegetables. “That’s it.”

As the article points out, cardboard boxes have a variety of post-life end-uses, and so they are kept free from toxins and chemicals for that reason. The inks are soy based and do not contain heavy metals. Remove tape, though many modern shipping tapes like those used by amazon are also biodegradable now.

A wide variety of news, science, and myth-busting outfits including Snopes have investigated the myth that these boxes contain dangerous chemicals like dioxin and PCBs and found the claim to be false.

They’re specifically asking people to stop spreading these myths.

A large number of sustainability scientists, sustainable farming organizations and farmers, including those involved doing research for SARE and those promoting organic agriculture all promote the use of this material as safe for farming.

THIS IS VERY, VERY GOOD as it reduces our dependence on ACTUALLY dangerous materials. WE WANT THIS.

Real people with real lives and real farms are using this to increase the healthfulness of their food, and communicating this to their customers, so unless there’s some new REALLY GOOD EVIDENCE that all these fact-checkers, manufacturers, and scientists got it wrong, please stop spreading this debunked myth. Considering real people’s lives and real sustainability research is involved, spreading this myth is very irresponsible.

Why do some people think brown, corrugated shipping cardboard contains dioxin and other dangerous chemicals?

Like anything, myths get started and die hard.

Some have used a study on a chicken bedding material that included generic ”shredded cardboard” as evidence that brown cardboard shipping boxes contain dioxin and PCBs. That study did not claim that brown cardboard shipping boxes contained those chemicals. They tested a material that included shredded food packaging boxes, and plasticized materials. The pictures show prices of plastic in the bedding. Of course, that material contains plastic contaminants and chemicals. The authors obviously do not claim those chemicals are in all cardboard, and using their study to make that claim is misleading. It would be exactly like claiming that all carrots contain high levels of lead, then using a study of carrots grown in lead-contaminated soil to back that claim. Just because plasticized, shiny colored cardboard coated in plastic contains plastic does not mean that ALL cardboard contains those chemicals.

Is Cardboard bad for soil?

Some have even made the shocking claim that cardboard has no place ever touching soil! Well, such an extraordinary claim should require some extraordinary evidence.

Contrary to that, we have quite a few studies showing that cardboard sheet mulch has many positive benefits, including reducing weeds, increasing soil life, increasing soil carbon and nutrient budgets, and water holding capacity of soil. All had POSITIVE findings on sheet mulching with cardboard, and none found any negative impacts on soil health or crop growth. Many reported increased observation of earthworms. Here are just a few, there are quite a few more:

https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/fne10-677/

https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/fne23-054/

https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fnc19-1181/

Yet, this claim that sheet mulching harms soil health rests on one lab study looking at just one factor of soil health: Air flow into soil being blocked by an existing cardboard layer. It’s worth noting that commonly used landscape fabric performed WORSE that cardboard did in this lab test, and leaf litter layers in natural ecosystems would ALSO restrict airflow into soil, yet forest soils are plenty healthy.

It’s also important to note that the SARE studies reported that the cardboard layer rapidly broke down, leaving only a mulch layer and no cardboard to impede airflow. I myself have used the method on many dozens of sites and have always observed that in 100% of the cases, the cardboard quickly breaks down. This is also what Ruth Stout, Toby Hemenway, and Geoff Lawton have claimed they observed. I have posted videos on Youtube showing the cardboard layer broken down after just about 1 month.

Even cardboard box manufacturers state that cardboard breaks down within 3 months of soil contact. Therefore, at absolute worst, the effects of the cardboard layer on airflow would be a very temporary problem. https://www.hammondpaper.com/blog/post/hp-the-role-of-paperboard-in-agriculture

So, it appears that one lab study that tested cardboard and not sheet mulch, is not relevant to the real world conditions of a sheet mulch.

So there’s really no reason to avoid cardboard shipping boxes in sheet mulching. There’s no evidence that supports the claim that there’s any health risk. And there’s no negative scientific study testing a prepared sheet-mulch that demonstrates anything other than a positive outcome for soil health.

I for one am going to keep using and promoting it.

20 Comments
2024/03/27
18:27 UTC

1

Experience with Allegheny Spurge (Pachysandra procumbens) as a food forest ground cover [PA]?

Anybody have experience using Allegheny Spurge (Pachysandra procumbens) in a PA (USA) food forest as ground cover?

A friend suggested this as a native option for making green mulch in shadier areas, but I’ve never planted it. Would it work? Is there anything else you like to use in the same role?

Thanks!

1 Comment
2024/03/27
18:04 UTC

2

Why do worms LOVE cardboard?!?!

“Why do worms love CARDBOARD?”

If you’ve ever done a sheet-mulch with cardboard — an entirely safe and effective practice — then you’ve probably noticed that earthworms seem to LOVE the stuff! It’s one of the most common observations.

And well, this observation has been documented in a lot of the SARE research demonstrating the effectiveness of sheet-mulching with cardboard. One project looked at this specifically and demonstrated far higher worm populations than in mulch alone, continuing MONTHs after the cardboard had broken down!
https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/fne10-677/

This could be why research by SARE and others have found that sheet-mulching with cardboard improves soil health, plant productivity, water retention in soil, and dramatically reduces weeding .

Even vermicomposting professionals have observed and documented that worm populations boom under cardboard! This article discusses the possibility that it’s the glues (which are made from vegetable starches that bacteria love.)https://www.redwormcomposting.com/.../why-do-red-worms.../

4 Comments
2024/03/27
16:04 UTC

2

Controlling ants in my Southern Oregon greenhouse

Last year ants completely invaded my seed starters and I forgot about that this year, until yesterday. The ants are once again gathering and I fear for when I go out there today. In my home I use a poison they bring back to their nest and I'm hesitant to use poison near my gardens and wondering if there's a more natural/permaculture control that I can be using.

I know can create a mote around my starter trays but that would take a lot of water and the motes would be rather large.
Would creating a barrier using diatomaceous earth be a good idea?

Does anyone have any other ideas or suggestions for me?

4 Comments
2024/03/27
15:35 UTC

4

Stupid newbie Hügelkultur questions

I'm interested in trying out Hügelkultur, and I think I have the land to do a little bit. But I'm trying to figure out two things:

  1. I have the logs, and i have the land. How do I get the logs to the land? What's the best way to move tree trunks (or parts thereof) from wooded point A to farmland point B?
  2. Does the health of the trees used for logs matter? Obviously they'll be decomposing, but do I need to worry about whether they have any kind of disease that might spread to my garden?

Thanks!

3 Comments
2024/03/26
22:14 UTC

6

Planting Blackberries next to Raspberries?

I have a cemented bed that I have raspberries planted in. There is space leftover and I want to black my black berries there too, the variety is Prime Ark Traveler, Thornless. Has anyone done this? It seems online its not recommended. Can it be done? Will illness spread between them? Will one outcompete the other?

9 Comments
2024/03/26
19:54 UTC

16

What are some things you wish you knew when you got started?

I'm trying to plany first long term, sustainable gardens and would like to know those things you learned from hard experience and mistakes. Of course I've been doing a lot of reading and practicing of plant care but there's always a nugget or two of wisdom that is missing from any instructions. TIA 😊

13 Comments
2024/03/26
19:39 UTC

6

Good plants/herbs to plant with alliums.

I am using an old family farm to set up a garden to grow most of my own produce. My dilemma is that it is sort of far away from me. The area is rife with groundhogs, deer, and moles, so growing anything they like to eat seems like a lost cause.

My current plan for this area is to pack it full of onions and garlic. I would also like to plant some plants or herbs that grow well with alliums to keep weeds at bay without spraying anything nasty. What are your recommendations?

5 Comments
2024/03/26
19:23 UTC

9

Book recommendations?

If you had to recommend your “permaculture bible” which book would it be and why? Looking to purchase 1-2 books but would like some lived-feedback on where to start.

Thank you!

13 Comments
2024/03/26
16:20 UTC

6

Starting a new garden area….will use straw mulch

Howdy folks….I sure could use some advice.

I have an area that i am going to start a garden. The space I have is about 70ft x 35ft.

I have 25 dry bales of straw (Rexade and Sphaerex treated mid season). I looked these two chemicals up and they say they breakdown quickly.

I was planning on doing a heavy layer mulch garden. Should I condition the straw to get it breaking down before I spread it out, or should I just leave it and spread it as soon as the snow is off of the area? I have the bales piled up in 3 big piles now…

Thanks

4 Comments
2024/03/26
14:06 UTC

3

Irrigation & sensors

I have a drip line in my veggie garden, and it has a three pronged moisture sensor that's meant to prevent the irrigation from running if the soil is already wet. But, I don't know what 'soil humidity' percentage to set the Cutoff at. Does anyone have any ideas?

3 Comments
2024/03/25
23:55 UTC

0

Paid a land too much, I need a bit of emotional support from permaculture friends

Hi, me and my family bought a land a year ago. This land is 3.3 hectares and we bought it too quickly. I am not sure why we wanted to buy that so quickly and why we were rushing. Actually I know why, one of us was putting pressure because thought that we had to do everything quickly. SO we followed and got carried away with it.

We paid 180k with taxes for 3.3 hectares, now we also wanted to build on top of it and that's going to cost even more money. It seemed like the cost was because we had the possibility to build which is not too common, also the rules says that with 3.3 hectares we would be able to build houses for everyone and we wanted to be all close together. It's also 10 mins from the seaside, so it looked appealing.

It's true that we could use some room for b&b and get some money back, but still...

Also many people around us now they are telling we overpaid that but looking at website it's always these kind of prices.... I am not sure why these people say our price was crazy when the websites don't say those prices they state.

I feel so emotionally sad we did this invstment. I love the land we bought and I want to do a permaculture project but that felt like a huge waste of money. I know in other countries you would buy much more land with that.....

38 Comments
2024/03/25
21:54 UTC

5

Weeping Mulberry Tree

Hi everyone!! I’m a new gardener that is starting my food forest. I bought a Weeping Mulberry Tree and am finding conflicting info about it online. Many sources mentioned that the roots of Mulberry Trees can be invasive, damage concrete/plumbling and can span 30-50 feet from the tree. Is this true with the Weeping variety? If anyone is growing this variety, what has been your experience? How far should it be planted from my home and structures?

25 Comments
2024/03/25
18:38 UTC

2

Beating Late Frosts: Protecting Grapevines with Sprinkler Irrigation

0 Comments
2024/03/25
18:07 UTC

3

Dissertation research on community gardens

Hi, my name is Daisy Worthington and I am a student currently studying geography and environmental science. I am completing a dissertation investigating the role that community gardens play in addressing unequal access to green space. As part of this research, I have created a short survey which aims to understand the lived experiences of those involved in community gardens. I have attached the survey to this post and would be extremely grateful if anyone could complete it. Taking part will allow you to contribute to research concerning community gardens. sharing your experiences and insights will help develop an understanding of the impact of community gardening on local communities. Thank you for taking the time to read this post!

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeHNUiBtfcn9xKMkoJh44ThtFIdXkUan1NPbX31IrQbCfZg3Q/viewform?usp=sf_link

1 Comment
2024/03/25
15:40 UTC

12

Half of my garden was ruined after construction. Help.

Hi there, still a newbie. Been learning and experimenting with permaculture for a couple of years now. I just finished construction that was inevitible and half of my garden is ruined. The ground is completely bare. I had to move my trees out of the way, all of the herbs and native plants are gone for this season I guess :(. What fast growing ground covering crops can you suggest? 1000sq meters, zone 7, low rain, slope. The trees will be returned in the autumn I guess as half of them already have leaves (apples, cherries, apricots, peaches,mullberry) ? Any advice would be great. ✌️🐝 Wood chips is impossible to find in big quantities out here, the only mulch I could get my hands on would be straw. Thank you all in advance and merry spring to all :)

18 Comments
2024/03/25
15:01 UTC

3

Share me pics of your compost

Natural compost ideas pls

0 Comments
2024/03/25
12:59 UTC

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