The TNIL (version 4) lexicon document contains certain reduplicative roots, which have caused some inconvenience and confusion among learners. To address this issue, I have proposed an initiative to replace these roots, as discussed in detail in the Lexicon-JSON GitHub repository. We invite you to participate in this important conversation on the topic of replacing all reduplicative roots. Your suggestions and insights are highly valued, and we encourage you to contribute to the discussion by following the link provided: Replacing all reduplicative roots. Thank you for your attention and participation.

Context: as a lover of Ithkuil, I'm currently coding a tiny web-app to help with building formatives. As you can imagine, it requires a careful reading and understanding of every information available on ithkuil.net

Given the complexity of the language, it is inevitable that a few mistakes sneak in. There is one, particularly, that is driving me nuts. You can find it in a table found in section 3.10, regarding "shortcut" forms. Specifically, look at the last column of the first row: it mentions "PRX Perspective". That's the problem. the abbreviation PRX refers to Extension, while Perspective refers to either M, G, N, or A abbreviations.

With the hope to make things visually clearer, I created a variant of the table found in 3.10, which you will find bellow.

https://preview.redd.it/99ia1du0av2e1.png?width=2246&format=png&auto=webp&s=8c8918a7a927b89db61fc444900ed1dbc7e668c4

I would be delighted if someone could help me resolve this apparent ambiguity.

In advance, thank you!

I'm currently working on reading through Ithkuil.net but I was wondering if there are any other resources out there I can use to learn Ithkuil v4.

hey all!

i made a utility kit for ithkuil text. it supports glossing words, viewing them in calligraphic and handwritting script, and searching for roots and affixes, all in a single interface. check it out!

https://v8.zsnout.com/ithkuil/kit

a long word glossed and scriptified

most everything from the script generator is supported, but registers will not work completely as expected. works best on desktop.

the tl;dr of how to use it is:

• type an ithkuil word to get a gloss and script version of it
• type a gloss-like thing to turn it into a word
  • separate gloss items with hyphens -
  • put a word in double quotes to search for a root
  • put a word in single quotes to search for an affix
  • you can also use three-letter abbreviations for affixes
  • join Ca segments with dots (MSS.PRX.G)
  • for a shortcut formative, put the Ca before the root

several words created using the \"unglossing\" feature

for more help on writing "unglosses", see https://github.com/zsakowitz/umpharesemsa?tab=readme-ov-file#generating-words. only read "Generating Words"; the rest of the page is intended to be used with a now-extinct discord bot. it does not cover root & affix searching.

more help text is included in the sidebar.

enjoy!

For those who don't know, the CSTC is a list of 218 sample sentences which serve to describe the grammar of any language ever, this includes both morphology and syntax.

Now, Ithkuil is as we know utterly infernal, so I sincerely won't expect anyone here to acheive this (neither am I capable), but if you consider yourself an Ithkuil pro, here are the 218 sample sentences It would be awesome if you provided interlineal glosses to each sentence, but anyway it'll suffice

Has anyone created a stack or series in some learning app for Ithkuil Script elements? I became curious because it seems better to plug in Examples displayed in the New Ithkuil grammar book. John Q often does not list ALL the grammar elements in an example word or sentence. its helpful to get the more complete picture.

Maybe he is thinking this is a way for people to investigate ithkuil further. Maybe not so well thought out, but I found it might make it a bit 'easier' to understand ithkuil in its associated script.

But that leaves one to understand the script and what grammar or letters it represents. I thought of creating a quiz on some app, but if someone already has done that, its all the better, why duplicate what has been done?

A simple example of a verb is:

zval
"dog"-OBS

Ithkuil docs say that "OBS" is meant as "I see / I perceive / I know", but it's not clear to me that "I" is literal here. What does "zval" mean as a sentence, or is it maybe not even a valid sentence? Would it be "there is a dog (a statement made by the speaker of the sentence based on their own perceptions)", or is it literally "I see a dog", or something else?

As it stands, there is a prohibition on machine generated Ithkuil content on this sub, and an exception for human glossed ML content. I believe there is broad agreement that this rule and exception prevents low-effort and low-quality posts, while allowing machine generated content that has been vetted by a competent person.

That rule and exception will remain in place for the foreseeable future.

However, a surprising number of posts in this sub are purely AI hype and speculation. I personally think that there are other subs more suited to that kind of content. Furthermore these posts are repetitive and for the most part exhibit a poor understanding of both Ithkuil and machine learning.

My inclination is to forbid hype-posting altogether, with an analogous exception to the ML content rule. That is, AI hype-posts would be permitted only if they contain a demonstration of an LLM that has been trained, prompted, or fine-tuned to produce well-formed Ithkuil.

View Poll

I’ve been thinking, what if LLM didn’t rely on human languages like English, but instead used *Ithkuil* as its native "thought" language?

Ithkuil is so detailed that it’s nearly impossible for humans to learn, but an AI wouldn’t have that problem. Imagine AI systems using Ithkuil to process and refine ideas with a depth that natural languages just can’t offer!

• Precision: Ithkuil can convey extremely nuanced meaning, which would help AI make more accurate decisions.

• Efficiency: AIs could communicate with each other faster and more clearly using a language built for logic and clarity.

But the problems are..

• **Translation**: Turning Ithkuil thoughts into "human" languages might bring back some of the ambiguity we’re trying to avoid.

• **Complexity**: The level of detail might slow things down for simpler tasks.

What do you think? Could Ithkuil help AI become more advanced, or is this idea too far-fetched?

Got it done this summer (mid-August), on my left forearm. I plan to do a lot more (all in Ithkuil). To start easily, it's just a phonetic transliteration. Next ones will be "real" Ithkuil sentences. What do you think? Do you spot any mistakes? (Not giving you the intended meaning on purpose).

https://preview.redd.it/oadh0duqndtd1.jpg?width=1388&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9908d2a30122cc0aed5813b774bd8fa140c83987

There are so many things I don't understand about Ithkuil. What is to be a name mean? Nothing can actually be a name, as that is a word to describe something.

Is this referencing a Name? or the word name... like this object is called x....or its too abstract for me.

https://www.ithkuil.net/newithkuil_02_morpho-phonology.htm#Sec2_4_3

So how would one construct a few examples like, "a streetcar named Desire"

would it be "to be the name" desire? would 'desire' be modified 'to be a name"?

Or the line "some folks call this a sling blade"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEmvNshtpXc&t=103s

"They called me 'Andy"

(from Tales of the City, where Ms. madrigal starts to tell the story of her transformation from "Andy" to 'madrigal". )

"Don't call me that"

Or "You can call me.....x, or you can call me x1, x2,x3,x4, ( I replaced x's with all the names given in this sequence. " its in the video clip....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCqh5ROtQRg

What about taxonomy? and various levels of classification?

The taxonomy of the reishi mushroom, also known as Ganoderma lucidum, is as follows:

• Kingdom: Fungi
• Phylum: Basidiomycota
• Class: Agaricomycetes
• Order: Polyporales
• Family: Polyporaceae
• Genus: Ganoderma
• Species: Ganoderma lucidum

Thanks maybe If I saw some more concrete examples, it might make more sense fo me.

I don't understand if "to be a name" would that be applied to each taxononic class? or be applied to only the actual name? or both? How about the difference between actually describing the name, verses actually using the name? Say describing the reishi species, vs just talking about Reishi using the species name, or even its common name.

This is reishi....

Reishi is amazing.

this is called reishi.

Have fun translating!: "As I, a clown with my knees on the black office chair and leaning over the back, spin myself by pushing off of two other chairs around me with my hand, I hear the whirring of the bathroom fan in the adjacent room oscillating between my left and right ears."

Illustration:

https://preview.redd.it/zqce6mh3u7qd1.png?width=263&format=png&auto=webp&s=dff81132234ae3fd504dbb60701e857a66b50d2d

A huge issue with ithkuil is that you need a lot of information to form a minimum viable word. If you are in a scenario where you have incomplete information to form a word this makes ithkuil unspeakable. I propose the idea of the universal unspecified morpheme to overcome this issue. If you are unsure what morpheme you need to use in a situation then you use the universal unspecified morpheme in it's place within the standard slot sequence. I propose a consonant click would best fit this function sound-wise.

For example:

ujrarfga ('a developing transportation system') could become ujrarf!a (a transport system of unknown perspective) if a person was unsure of the perspective being discussed.

Could this concept work in it's own version of ithkuil?

I've been having some trouble with stems, how do I know which affix to add for which stem of which root? (I'm trying to translate "toe".) Thanks for any answers!

Hello! I'm looking for #help for a sacred mission: I want to give a significant gift to Lucifer with a #translation of Her Greek #Meaning as 'The Bearer of the Light', plus my personal insights, into #Ithkuil.

Please, save your religious judgements as well your criticism to my English Writing. I will pray for blessings to the person who can help us! lml #conlang

I've checked both the lexicon and writing system sections on the new ithkuil website, but can't quite figure it out. Thanks for any answers!

The quick answer is hwekthalía-ufthala, but read on as we explore the process so we can understand why.

Although New Ithkuil lacks a specific root for "fog," we can employ various related roots to construct a formative that precisely conveys this concept. To begin our translation, let's identify and narrow down the roots that could potentially be used to represent "fog."

When searching for specific roots in the most up-to-date lexicon available on this website, you can press CTRL+F and enter any known root consonant cluster enclosed between two dashes, like -XX-. If your search yields no results, do not be alarmed; this may be due to a typographical inconsistency, which I will explain. Many roots in the lexicon contain hidden spaces between letters. Unfortunately, to locate these roots using the search function, you must know where these spaces occur. I will point these out as they arise, but you can also experiment by inserting spaces between letters, as the possibilities are limited.

The root -FŠL- (lexicon page 293) in Stem 1 pertains to general weather conditions—be they adverse, favorable, or neutral. Essentially, we are not specifying the nature of the weather. If the weather condition is adverse, it corresponds to Stem 3 of the -FŠL- root. Conversely, Stem 2 represents favorable weather conditions.

Beginners might find the Effect category (05 Verb Morphology | Yuorb) of morphemes confusing. This category can be added to our formative, in addition to stem choices, to indicate whether the weather is beneficial or detrimental in some way. Don't worry; this feature enhances specificity, allowing us to express that adverse weather could be beneficial to someone, or that good weather might have a negative effect. This nuanced expression is one of the beauties of New Ithkuil, enabling us to convey complex meanings with precision. While the Effect category is optional, we must explicitly specify which stem our roots employ.

The root -MŢR- (lexicon page 294) denotes water-based meteorological phenomena such as rain, snow, or hail. Note that -MŢR- is among the roots with a hidden space; to locate it in the lexicon, you must enter -M ŢR-, inserting a space between M and Ţ.

The root -ŢH- (lexicon page 263) in Stem 2 is defined as “(to be) a plume or cloud of steam or water vapor,” but "cloud (of the sky)" is likely a more fitting choice for translating "fog," as fog is essentially a cloud at ground level. The root -FTH- (lexicon page 293) in Stem 3 means “(to be) the state, act, or process of a cloud's presence in the sky.”

A note in the lexicon (one on page 293 and another on the next page 294) left by JQ offers a valuable clue for translating "fog." It states, "For ‘fog’ or ‘to be foggy,’ concatenate Stem 2 of -KTH- (‘ground/surface of Earth’) in LOCATIVE format with Stem 3 of the -FTH- root (‘cloud’)." The root -KTH- in Stem 2 refers to "the Earth’s natural land surface" in a literal sense—whether dirt, grass, rock, or other terrain types.

This process of concatenation allows us to merge two formatives—-KTH- and -FTH-—into a single unit with its own unified meaning. Many languages, including English, perform similar processes when combining distinct concepts into a single verb, a phenomenon known as conflation. Typically, verb conflation occurs unpredictably, often as a “short-cut” that pairs an implicit primary verb sense (e.g., movement, transformation) with an overt secondary sense (e.g., manner, location).

In contrast, New Ithkuil systematically organizes this process into a productive framework. Here, any formative, known as the concatenated formative, can be concatenated directly with another, known as the "parent" formative. Notably, when two formatives are combined in this way, the term Format replaces the term Case in the concatenated formative to emphasize the specific semantic relationship between the concatenated formative and the parent formative, rather than a broader case relationship to the rest of the sentence. (10 Special Constructions | Yuorb)

So, the lexicon (i.e., JQ) suggests that we concatenate a formative based on the root for "land" in Stem 2 with a formative for "cloud", using the root for atmospheric phenomenon in Stem 3, which serves as the parent formative. In doing so, we will use type-2 concatenation, as we are creating a new lexico-semantic gestalt—unlike type-1 concatenation, which implies only a circumstantial relationship between the concatenated formative and the parent.

This concatenation should result in a meaning that conveys "a cloud defined by its location on the ground." The "ground" element will be placed in the Locative (LOC) format (04 Case Morphology | Yuorb). In this context, we use the term Format rather than Case because the locative case applies to the concatenated formative rather than to the parent formative or some standalone one (which isn't part of a concatenated pair).

You might assume that the concatenated formative in the Locative format would appear as hwekthali'a, with the familiar Locative ending -i'a. However, in concatenated formatives, the glottal stop (represented as an apostrophe, similar to the Hawaiian ʻokina ʻOkina - Wikipedia) is not permitted. Instead, New Ithkuil applies stress to one of the vowels within the format morpheme, eliminating the glottal stop, resulting in hwekthalía.

The parent formative in this construction will be ufthala, with its case determined by the specific syntactic context of the sentence in which it is used. For this example, we will use the default Thematic (THM) case, as is standard practice in New Ithkuil educational materials when no specific case is required. When combined with the concatenated formative, the expression conveys the idea of "a cloud-like entity situated on the surface of the land." The resulting concatenation would be hwekthalía-ufthala.

If New Ithkuil had a specific root for "fog," it would likely be defined as a weather phenomenon. In that case, it would be more appropriate to place the formative in the Constitutive (CSV) Specification when translating a fog that can move, engulf and encircle as a large single entity, opposed to a general state of weather.

In New Ithkuil, weather phenomena defined under the Basic (BSC) Specification—a default that combines both the Contential (CTE) and Constitutive (CSV) specifications—is "(to be) a weather condition; to be the weather (conditions)." This conveys a general notion of weather. However, when translating "fog" as something tangible, capable of moving and enveloping its surroundings, the Constitutive (CSV) Specification is preferable. CSV specifies the physical manifestation of a particular weather condition—whether it be rain, fog, sunshine, or wind—emphasizing its concrete form.

For comparison, the BSC definition for the root "cloud" differs slightly: "(to be) the state/act/process of there being a cloud in the sky; to be a cloud". fog, as a specific manifestation of weather aligns with the CSV Specification for "weather", while the BSC Specification is more salient while using the root for "cloud".

To clarify the distinction between specifications for broader usage: the Constitutive (CSV) Specification focuses on the form—whether physical or non-physical—by which an entity, state, or process expresses itself, while the Contential (CTE) Specification addresses its essence or purposeful function. The Basic (BSC) Specification, as a combination of the two, encompasses both the form and the content of the phenomenon (02 Morpho-Phonology | Yuorb). Fog would be a weather phenomenon, but more than a cloud phenomenon.

The phrase hwekthalía-ufthala in New Ithkuil translates roughly into English as "a cloud (of the sky) located on the land’s surface" or "a land surface cloud (of the sky)." Let's break down each morpheme in detail to understand how this expression is constructed.

1. "hw": This is a variation of the formative parsing morpheme (Slot I) that performs two functions. First, it indicates the start of a new word. Second, it tells us that the word is a concatenated pair using type-2 concatenation. This type of concatenation signals that the two formatives form a new lexico-semantic gestalt, with a strong relationship between them, not merely a circumstantial one.
2. "ekth": This is the root for "land" in stem 2, specifically meaning "land surface." Stems in New Ithkuil alter the meaning of roots depending on their vowel, and in this situation, stem 2 refers to the natural surface of the Earth, whether it be dirt, grass, rock, etc.
3. "al": The phonemes of these two slots together can pack a lot of information, specifically the CA Complex (03 Basic Morphology | Yuorb). There's too much to delve into, but here they have default values for all categories. I won't explain everything that is being expressed, but I'll give you a little bit of information. First, the "a" denotes the Basic (BSC) Specification, which means the formative represents both the form and content (CSV+CTE) of the entity or concept. Second, the "l" indicates that the formative refers to a single instance of the concept—in this case, a single instance of "land surface."
4. "ía": This morpheme represents the Locative (LOC) format. It indicates that the land surface is being referred to in terms of location, specifically as a place where the cloud is situated. In concatenated formatives, it’s crucial to note that stress is used instead of glottal stops when marking cases like this, making "ía" carry the Locative meaning instead of "i'a".
5. Parent Formative: After the concatenated formative, we encounter the parent formative, which is signaled by its position directly following the concatenated formative. When a new formative begins, and it's not part of a concatenated pair, a glottal stop precedes it to mark this transition. In shortcuts it will either be w- or y-. This is also true for a parent formative. A glottal stop appears at the beginning of ufthala, separating it as the second part of the concatenated pair.
6. "uft": The root is in stem 3, which gives the meaning "cloud of the sky"
7. "al": As with the concatenated formative, the "al" here again provides default information. The "a" denotes the BSC Specification, and the "l" specifies that it refers to a single instance of a cloud.
8. "a": Finally, the "a" at the end of ufthala marks the formative in the default Thematic (THM) case.

TLDR: hwekthalía-ufthala is a great way of expressing "fog", literally translating to "a cloud located on the land’s surface". New Ithkuil does this by using type-2 concatenation (hwekthalía) combining the notion of "land surface" in the Locative format with the parent formative (ufthala), which refers to a single instance of a "cloud of the sky".

With the rise of AI, we have several chat bots like ChatGPT 3.5 / 4.0, Poe, etc. the list goes on, we see how AI is meant to be significantly smarter (than what I would say: is more than 95% [of the collective human population]), smarter than most individuals. So my question is why can't some AI like GPT use this to learn Ithkuil, do you think they could do so?

Just a remainder to everyone here that you will be banned from the Ithkuil Discord if you attempt to contact John Quijada, our founder. I am doing this because one of our fellow Redditors is potentially attempting to impersonate JQ. I have responded to them in a genuine way as if they were JQ, but these rules will have no potential to change unless on the off chance it is proven that JQ truly commented to Necessary_Squash5267's post. Even then, I doubt it will be allowed, even with his consent. Thank you all for following the rules and stay safe.

https://preview.redd.it/kz78qjs3i4nd1.png?width=2529&format=png&auto=webp&s=9447ebbb73f158ef5ab51e1587e0322411dc7e82

I joined the server and read convos about the language and noticed that I'm no longer a member and cannot join via the invite link, it was pretty helpful in learning and I don't understand why I was banned I never even said anything

Hello Dear readers, I starter a translation of an old Fable by Asop. Its about the miller, his son, and a donkey. So far I am looking up roots. The lexicon gives a number of possible choices BSC, etc.... some of the descriptions seem so sound so similiar or exactly the same. How is one to choose which is the most appropriate?

THe original story is not my own, so at certain points I have to decide what I think the person meant. I find it interesting, but at times kind of confusing, as John Q as interesting as he is, is at times difficult to understand what he means.

If anyone has some general idea of what he means by particular grammar constructions lwet me know. I have a feeling I will have to re read mush of ithkuil grammar.

I figure that until I actually USE some ithkuil , that is when I will start to understand ithkuil. But believe me....there is a LOT of things to get wrong...or not understand.

This is hopefully how I will name my magic system