Hat jmd. Erfahrung mit denen? Lihnt sich ein Genossenschaftsanteil?

in kCHF/year

Hello, M43 here, this is my prudent portfolio (almost 100k) across neon and yuh. Don't like to risk much... Any tips? IBKR?, no thanks.

Vanguard Global Aggregate Bond ETF - 25%

Vanguard USD Treasury Bond ETF - 15%

iShares Core MSCI Emerging Markets IMI UCITS ETF (Acc) - 10%

Invesco FTSE All-World UCITS ETF - 25%

Invesco Global High Yield Corporate Bond ESG UCITS ETF Acc - 5%

Leonteq USD Overnight Return Index - 10%

WisdomTree Enhanced Commodities UCITS ETF - 5%

Gold ETC - 5%

Considering buying a small investment property in Zurich canton. There are quite a few new developments on the go, where one can buy off plan i.e. before the property is built.

My question is: Is the listed purchase price for these off-plan developments typically fixed, or is it also normal (as per 2nd hand property) to negotiate the purchase price?

More generally, if anybody’s got any tips/advice for purchasing off-plan, would appreciate it. Read some stories about developers going bankrupt after taking everyone’s deposits etc, so would obviously like to mitigate my risk as much as practically possible.

Thanks!

Grüezi Everyone,

I would like to invest ~5% of my portfolio into a metal ETF and found the ZKB Gold ETF to be quite interesting.

However, After googling for a while now I could not figure out how the dividend is calculated - according to the ETFs description, it is distributed every january, however there are no dividends to be expected due to the fact that this ETF mirrors the Gold price without actually being invested into anything.

My question now would be if any of you have experience with this ETF and in relation to it's TER. What kind of transaction could I expect in january, especially with a TER of 0.50% which is a bit high IMO. Wouldn't it make sense to sell the ETF right before the TER deduction date, and then buy into it again right afterwards with a minimal loss in order to avoid it, or am I misunderstanding how this works in the ETFs' case?

Thanks in advance to anyone with the experience to answer!

What happens if someone goes in early retirement and start getting their LPP pension and then decide to get back to work again?

I’m looking for a credit card and would appreciate some recommendations. There are free credit cards with cashback options, but also those with higher annual fees that include extensive insurance benefits. Which credit card would you recommend, and which one have you personally had good experiences ?

Hey there, this is my 4th year living in SW. KZH the 2th, I emigrated here from a preatty shitty country where nobody has money, my parents never tought me how to save, and I thought that I knew but it isnt. Its really difficult to find "fix incomes and fair incomes arround here" I wanna study in the university but... yeah, I need money and living with a month by month lifestyle is just depressing for me, I'd appreciate any tip <3

Hi there, so I know I've been procrastinating to the max and I extended the deadline to file taxes to the latest possible date of Nov. 30th, and I had several meetings with my accountant this week in order to finalize the tax return and send it. As he tried to submit it just this Friday, there was apparently some technical problem so as of now it's still not yet submitted.

Since Monday / next working day is after the deadline, would you know if it's still possible to submit the tax return then? Or would the option just not be there anymore, and it would lead to complications? I read that further extension would be only possible in case of serious/provable event (illness, death in family...). In which case it'd be better that I redo the return from scratch by myself and submit it today? (I got a spare access key)

If anyone here would know what's the best course of action - many thanks in advance for your help!

PS: Please kindly don't judge me too much harshly on my last minute doing, I know I should have dealt with this way earlier.. thanks 🙏

Hello,

I live in Switzerland and have recently opened a bank account with WillBe in Liechtenstein. I'm seeking clarification on how to handle the tax declaration for the interest earned from my savings account and fixed-term deposits.

Do I need to declare these interests in both Switzerland and Liechtenstein (i.e., file a tax declaration in Liechtenstein as well)?

If anyone has experience with tax declarations for WillBe accounts or similar cases, I’d greatly appreciate your insights.

Thank you!

I got a 95 CHF fee in my monthly Sunrise bill coming from Sunrise Pay. Apparently, I bought something from Apple iTunes... Weird, I can't remember any purchase.. so I go check my recent purchases and subscriptions: NOTHING.

I check with Sunrise, they can't tell me what it is because it was purchased through Apple.

So I go check with Apple: the first worker keeps repeating the same excuses, that he can't get access and there's nothing he can do.

Then I insist, and I manage to get the supervisor. She tells me they can't reveal what was purchased or who purchased it, and they can't pay me back either.

What the hell is going on???

I am curious about the long-term prospects of investments like ETFs and the stock market in general. The stock market generates gains for investors primarily due to the growth of the global economy. However, doesn’t this imply that we need continuous, perhaps even infinite, growth to sustain long-term returns? Most investors operate with time horizons spanning decades, but infinite growth seems unrealistic given the planet’s finite resources. Current trends suggest that we need to focus on reducing growth, prioritizing sustainability, and lowering consumption. If this shift occurs, wouldn’t it negatively impact the stock market’s performance? Could this lead to diminishing returns over the years or even a potential market crash?

Given these concerns, I wonder whether alternative investments, like precious metals such as gold, might be a better option for the long term. With increasing geopolitical conflicts and the ongoing rise in global money supply, gold and similar assets could potentially provide greater stability.

Right now, I have a significant amount of uninvested money because I don’t know where to allocate it for the long term without constantly worrying. Additionally, the new U.S. president’s policies, including tariffs, do not inspire much confidence in growth prospects. What do you think? How do you approach long-term investing in such uncertain times, and what would you suggest I do?

I'm buying an apartment soon and want to move away from S&P500 volatility for 2-3 months before I need to make the downpayment.

What are my options to keep the park the cash somewhere in the meantime?

I am leaning towards SGOV ETF (US treasuries) offers around 5%p.a., but I may be exposed to currency risk as the security is traded in USD - something which I probably can't do much about.

Any thoughts? Thank you!

In multiple forums, I read, 3a insurances are bad products. However, since many questions come on this subredit about same topic, I was wondering if the differences between 3a insurances & 3a investment accounts are clear. Just sharing my thoughts and looking for any insights that others might have

Note -: I am not trying to convince anyone to invest in 3a insurance products. But I think there is a space to discuss about them because many Swiss residents use these products & they should not always assume that they have made a mistake.

Note 2-: Sorry for mathematical nature of this post. I just like to break things down for my own understanding.

So first, what are different options for 3a

• 3a savings account. Simple to understand. You put money and then it gains some interest (small).
• 3a investment account -: many banks / providers offer this including traditional banks & fintech like Finpension, Truewealth, VIAC, FRANKLY etc. Here the money is deposited and it get invested into selected strategies (which uses Stocks. Bonds, Real estate, commodities etc). This type of account also comes with Custody fees / management fees.
• 3a insurance cum investment products which typically include Insurance & investment combined together. Normally they have a long term contract & cancelling in middle can lead to realized losses.
• perhaps there is something else too that I do not know about

3a insurance cum investment would seem like best of both worlds but they are often most misunderstood products. So the first question we should ask is "what am i looking for" ?

• If investor is looking for maximum returns & do not need insurance, then there is not much value in investing in 3a insurance cum investment product.
• This leaves investors who actually want a combo product because they need both things.

Lets focus on investors who want insurance & investment. What should be clarified is following

1. We can assume annual deposit is D
2. What are the commissions that are deducted from 3a deposits before they even get to the 3a provider. This would be broker commissions , lets say X. So (D-X) goes to next step.
3. Post that a portion of deposit would be used for insurance. Lets say this value is Z.
4. (D-X-Z) would now be used for investment purposes
   • Issuing commissions (if any) , lets say M.
   • So (D-X-Z-M) is invested into a product which would incur following costs & generate returns
     • Annual TER% of the products used as investment options (t%)
     • Annual custody charges / management fees (if any) (c%)
     • Lets assume that annual return (r%) is generated using the investment product
   • if we assume contract period of N years. We should expect final value of investment product as follows
     • Final value (FV) = (D-X-Z-M) * (1 + r% - t% - c%)^N

So in summary, investor should expect following

• Insurance premium of Z CHF per year & whatever insurance cover that comes with it PLUS
• FV CHF in their investment account at end of contract

Hence, while comparing 3a insurance cum investment product , investors should think about

1. What kind of insurance cover they are achieving by paying Z CHF premiums. And how does that compare with traditional insurance ONLY products
2. What kind of FV* they can achieve if they would have invested the money (D minus Z) in 3a Fintech account like Finpension , VIAC, Frankly etc. And how does FV* compares with FV
   • FV* = (D - Z)*(1+ rf%- tf%)^N
     • where rf% = expected return in Fintech 3a product
     • where tf% = expected annual cost for fintech 3a product
   • As a reminder FV = (D-X-Z-M) * (1 + r% - t% - c%)^N

I looked into this multiple times & for me 3a insurance cum investment products were not interesting because

• I do not need additional insurance as 2nd pillar covers well
• I do not like to have annual commitment for a very long period
• Expected values of (rf% - tf%) are generally higher than (r% - t% - c%) for most products i know about

If someone is reviewing their offers, I really recommend to break down these elements and understand what you are getting into. It is not necessary that such products are not good. But I have seen that mostly the breakdown is not clarified to investors.

Ideally, X, M, t% and c% should be as low as possible. And r% should be as high as possible.

Hi all,

I used to pay taxes by the source in ZH but now I have to do the tax declaration for 2023 and I want to declare my crypto holdings.

From what I’ve read, to declare crypto, I should use its value as of Dec 31, 2023, convert it into CHF, then this amount to btc and then include it as Kryptowährung in the Wertschriften- und Guthabenverzeichnis alongside my other assets. I followed this process and added my Bitcoin (e.g., 0.5 BTC) in that section.

However, while the amount of BTC is displayed, I don’t see its value in CHF. Additionally, no value is being added to the Steuerwert column, where the total worth of my assets is shown. I’m unsure if this is correct or if I’ve missed a step.

Has anyone experienced this or knows how to handle it?

Thank you in advance!

Hi everyone!

I've been trying to unlock permission for leveraged / complex products on IBKR for days but I get systematically refused.

I'm maxing everything I can, putting in absurd amounts of salary and net worth but it doesn't work.

I wonder if it is linked to the fact that I'm based in Switzerland. Do any of you based in Switzerland have access to leveraged products? If so, how did you do it?

Thank you in advance !

https://preview.redd.it/30pra9gv3t3e1.png?width=1145&format=png&auto=webp&s=05e4bd39e8dd7ecdde1df5a6fe4c795168cd506f

As the title suggests , I have been trying to open a second account for my son ( 3yo ) where I plan to invest and at some point in his life transfer this funds to him , or use it in the future for college , etc.. . Here is what I am looking for:

1. To have it under the same account I have our family funds , but of course separately.

2. Whenever I decide to transfer this funds I would like to avoid paying taxes withdrawing.

I already tried opening an additional account but it doesn’t allow me to do so with my phone number and email account ( because they are taken for my family account ) .

Any advice on how to do it best ?

Thanks

Second try (first version had errors): I finally took some time to visualize what I’ve been doing in Excel for years.

Housing and groceries are shared equally with my partner, so its 3400 rent in total.

Daily expenses cover a lot of things, like eating out, drinks, clothing, haircuts, and so on.

I have a fairly large „free amount“ that I don’t allocate to anything specific. Sometimes I use it to buy gifts, cover unexpected bills like healthcare costs, or treat myself to something nice. To be honest, though, I end up investing most of it (60–80%) in ETF by the end of the year anyway. I just like having some flexibility throughout the year.

I also built an emergency fund to cover my expenses for a good amount of time and feel secure, but I don’t need to add to it anymore.

Would love to hear your thoughts on it. Cheers!

Hi!

We are in the process of buying an apartment and after a lot of analysis I have come to the conclusion that direct amortization is better for us and a I think a lot of people like us.

However, I would like to share my reasoning and will be great to see if I am making some obvious mistake.

1. I think the main benefit of indirect amortization would be if one doesn't have enough cash flow to pay the amortization and 3a contribution at the same time. If that's not the case, I think the relative advantage of the tax savings is highly diminished.

2. assuming if one can pay in both 3 pillar and amortization, the payments into 3rd pillar outside vs through indirect amortization are vastly different.

Not only the 3a products through amortization are significantly worse (higher TER or insurances), in addition, the fact that the amount from 3rd pillar needs to be taken out at a specific period significantly increases the risk profile of investments in equities.

Depending on the age, for example, I will have a comfortable 30 year horizon for 3A directly vs only between 10-15 years through indirect amortization.

3. 3 pillars through indirect amortization make it harder to switch banks later and also apparently it's more difficult to stop making amortization payments if the house value appreciates in case of indirect 3a.

So overall, while in the assumption of the best scenario of a strong equity market increase or when one doesn't have enough money to pay 3a after amortization, it would make sense to do indirect amortization.

But from a risk reward perspective for folks with significant cash flow, the minor win in taxes doesn't feel worth the risk, as the indirect 3a is very different from direct 3a in terms of quality and freedom of investments.

Based on my numbers, indirect would save around 15k CHF over 10 years for a 1.8m house at 1.3% mortgage interest rate assuming a 3% equity market increase. This doesn't seem worth the risk vs reward ratio. I can share my calculations sheet if needed.

Please let me know if I am making some obvious mistake.

I've been using Yuh for about a year now and happy to share some thoughts.

Of course nothing motivates you to write a review as strong as a bad experience, this review is no exception.

There are multiple UX issues that makes it really annoying to use:

1. Pending transactions

You want to transfer CHF100 to a friend and get an error message, that you cannot do it, you "balance is CHF300 which is too low to transfer CHF100". Whaaaaat?

Right, because you have pending transactions. You have to keep it in mind. It is especially annoying, guess when? Right, when you pay actively with Yuh, then you generate a lot of pending transactions! And you have to sum it in your head and subtract from what you have in your "Pay" account. Otherwise you don't know how much you have left to spend. And these are usually in pending state for a day or so.

What I want: pending transactions are always considered in my current balance automatically, like in ANY other bank.

2. Rejected transactions

My card payments are randomly rejected with the reason "not enough funds" on the terminal. While I'm aware about pending transactions and always compute amounts of funds available to me and can certify that I have enough funds. Also an hour later a similar amount would work on another terminal, then an hour later rejected again, then work again... Good I have another card, which just works all the time.

What I want: card payments work every time.

3. Transaction document.

When you do IBAN transfer you can download the "Transaction notification" pdf with this transaction alone. But not when you pay with the card! I want to refund some payment transactions with my employer, there is no way to extract it from the app easily. There is no pdf. I cannot screenshot the screen with the transaction, Yuh app does not allow that! I really have only 2 options: 1) ask someone to take a photo of my phone with the transaction screen and send me the photo. 2) wait until the month ends, download the monthly statement, mark all the transactions except the one I need to share.

What I want: any transaction can be extracted (see "Download Statement" in Revolut), or at least allow me to take a screenshot on my own phone.

4. Commission display

When you pay in USD on the transaction screen it shows you your CHF converted to USD with interbank exchange rate and commission equals 0. Then a couple of days later it sends you a new transaction which is a sum of ALL conversions for the period and aggregated commission on transaction screen, but not on transaction notification pdf. Again making it very inconvenient to refund transaction by transaction. 

What I want: every transaction displaying commission already included into the final conversion amount, see how Revolut does it.

5. Chat bot

Not much to say, that's an absolutely useless waste of my time, like any other chat bot. There is human chat and phone support as well, but both work 8-19 on weekdays. Which is ok, I totally respect that. Still it might not work the best, when I'm on the other side of the globe, or I have a problem during a weekend, or maybe I just have my own life 8-19.

What I want: being able to explain my problem in chat or email when it works best for me, and you can reply when it works best for you. But I know, maybe it's a bit too much to ask for already, only neo-banks do that.

I have other moments that I would like to see improved, but these 5 already give me energy to go write this review and consider another bank migration process. Unfortunately there are no clear candidates, maybe I will try ZKB next. I have also used Neon and Revolut for over a year now. Not that annoying, but they have their own problems. To Yuh I migrated from UBS and am still happy about it.

For example if I have the down payment for a small mortgage to buy a place in need of repairs, can I take that mortgage out and then also take out another mortgage for renovation? - assuming the combined monthly payments are in the allowed range for my salary.

It would be a way to effectively borrow more than just 80% of the purchase price so it seems to be a bit of a loophole to that rule..

I called ubs to ask and the person I spoke to didn’t want to give me a straight answer and I didn’t want to make an appointment with a mortgage adviser for something purely hypothetical.

Hallo

ich wollte mich nur erkundigen was so gute Lebensversicherungsangebote sind die Leute hier kennen.

Ich bin 37 Jahre und habe eine Frau und bald ein Kind. Die Versicherung soll vor allem meine Frau unterstützen, da sie sich hauptsächlich nur um Kind und Haushalt kümmert wird.

Bei meinem Todesfall wäre es hilfreich für die Familie noch neben meinem Ersparten eine zusätzliche finanzielle Unterstützung zu haben.

Also der Betrag muss auch nicht extrem hoch sein hatte an 200 000 oder 300 000 CHF gedacht.

So my girlfriend opened a 3b for her little sister at swiss life, the product is called: „Swiss Life Dynamic Elements Junior Plan“. However, since I read here that 3b is not a good product, I checked with my GF and she would lose around 900.- CHF. So my question is: Is it advisable to remove the money from SwissLife and put it on a „Fondskonto“ at a Bank? Why is it better to cut the losses asap?

Married with a 13 month baby. Im ok c permit, my partner is Swiss, I have been here for 5 years and would like to start contributing to pillar 3.

My salary is more then double then my partner. I’d like to know if it makes sense to contribute to the pillar 3 twice (one for me and one for my partner)? Or as a couple you can only contribute once?

Tax wise, is it more interesting to go in which direction? Thanks a lot!

Hello, I spend a lot of time finding the best ETFs. What is your advice about these three ETFs?

• VT - Vanguard Total World Stock ETF
• CSPX - iShares Core S&P 500
• IWDA - iShares Core MSCI World

I think they would be great for a Swiss investor for the long term, but I’m not 100% sure 😌

EDIT: solved! see the comments

I have a portion of my portfolio allocated to SMH.

I thought, since it's available at SIX in CHF (under the ticker SMHV), that it made more sense to buy it there and save the forex conversion fees because I receive my income in CHF.

However, I noticed that recently, SMHV is performing significantly worse than SMH, which I don't understand because my understanding is that is exactly the same stock. It's not like SMHV is hedged in CHF. They have the same ISIN (IE00BMC38736).

For instance, yesterday, SMH was down 1%, but SMHV was down 3.5%. My first thought was that the USD got stronger or the CHF got weaker on that day. But when I checked the USD/CHF exchange rate, it was not the case.

So on TradingView, I decided to graph the SMHV/SMH ratio overlaid with the USD/CHF ratio. You would expect that the two would be almost identical. But I was surprised to see that actually, SMHV/SMH has diverged significantly since 2024.

https://i.imgur.com/NglIW0S.png

USD/CHF is at -0.94%, while SMHV/SMH is at -11.25%

What am I missing here? Shouldn't arbitrage keep them close together?

Is it possible to change my ownership of the shares from SIX to NYSE NASDAQ?

Hey all!

Considering the recent announcements on this topic and my gradual loss of trust in our government's having our best interests in mind, I'm really reconsidering contributing to the 3rd pillar in the future.

I was curious what you guys are thinking and what you plan on doing. Will you contribute/keep contributing to the 3rd pillar and what's the reasoning behind your decision?

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts and insights!

Hi Guys - I have a 3a with a traditional bank and want to open a new one (?future tax benefit at payout but also because my bank doesnt offer many equity etc options). I travel for the next weeeeeks ans wonder where I can open an "easy" equity 3a to pay in before EOY? I cannot get home for letter etc. next weeks ...

As I understand, I can open multiple 3a's and other providers offer more equity driven products?

Anything I can open purely online and pay in before EOY ... I am not sure when I will be in CH before EOY

cheers

-a

Hi all,

I know we all praise VT & chill but after learning more about the stock market, particularly the Wheel Strategy and r/thetagang strategies, I believe they are a good way to generate more income. So I'd like to know more about the tax implications of these strategies in Switzerland and if it is worth it.

• How is selling CSPs/CCs or buying LEAPS taxed ? Is the premium income from selling CSPs/CCs or the profit made by a LEAPS considered capital gains or is it treated as ordinary income for tax purposes?
• Would it be better to sell these options yearly or monthly and for LEAPS would it be worth buying it knowing that there is a high chance of selling it before having held it for a whole year ?

I would really appreciate insights from anyone who trades options in CH.

From a tax perspective, is it better to stick with VT? Will taxes eat into my profits if I make a low two-figure profits per year?

Thanks a lot!

P.S. : No use of margin obviously, cash account. / Is there a high chance of being considered a professional investor ?

I am a Zurich resident with a B permit, my yearly gross income is 109.000 CHF and my taxes are deducted at source from my employer.

I am wondering if it makes sense to deposit 7056CHF in a pillar 3a and start doing the tax declaration in order to use the Pillar 3a tax deduction. In the VIAC page it's written:

'Although deductions can be claimed within the framework of the tax assessment, e.g. for the payment into the 3rd pillar, the tax rates of the municipality of residence can be higher than the withholding tax rate, which can consequently lead to an additional tax burden despite tax deductions.'

How can I be sure that it make sense for my situation to do this tax declaration switch?