This is a little theory I had regarding potential connections between Demise and Null. In particular, it gives an explanation as to why and how the Demon Tribe came into existence at the end of the Era of Hylia, as well as their hatred for the Gods and creation, despite having been hiding underground up until then. It also tries to reconcile the fact that both Null and Demise represent something of an origin of evil in the Zelda universe.

Zelda: Origin of Demons:

“This eternal being has conquered time itself. It is the source of all monsters.” - Fi, about Demise.

In Echoes of Wisdom, there is only one eternal being we see existing in the void before the Gods made the world, before time began. One who snuffed out all other life trying to form in the void. One who is imprisoned by the Golden Goddesses; meta-physically by time (an order that is the antithesis of the chaos this being represents); and also physically, deep in the core of the Earth, the planet where Hyrule would one day be born. Null.

“One dark, fateful day, the earth cracked wide and malevolent forces rushed forth from the fissure. They mounted a brutal assault upon the surface people, driving the land into deep despair…”

My theory is that the origin of Demons is Malice, created by Null. Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom shows us that even when an exceptionally powerful being is sealed, they can still disrupt the world as their latent hatred takes form and leaks out of their prison. In BotW it is given the name Malice. 

In Skyward Sword, the earliest game in the timeline, capital-M Malice isn’t mentioned, but there are some very similar substances. The Evil Crystal, which is described as "pure, crystallised monster malice," looks pretty close to the Malice of BotW. Koloktos, the boss of the Ancient Cistern, is animated by a similar, dark energy, not unlike the ‘Blight Ganons’, which seem to be Sheikah technology fused with Malice.

And under the Ancient Cistern, below the earth, are strange depths filled with pools of purple liquid that are harmful to the touch for humans, but reanimate dead monsters, very much like Malice.

While not explicitly stated, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the purpose of the Ancient Cistern for the humans in the Era of Hylia, was to purify water from Lake Floria, likely an important freshwater source to warrant such an elaborate cistern. I think the purple sludge that gets dumped in the underground areas is Malice that had been seeping through the rock and polluting the lake. Little did the humans know, that filtering it out of the water, and leaving it to pool and condense underground would only make its effects intensify.

But whose Malice? Not Demise’s, because he was sealed right at the end of the Era of Hylia, when the remaining humans on the surface had already been raised into the sky. So by the time he had been sealed long enough to start leaking Malice, there would be no one to build the Ancient Cistern. I believe what we are seeing here is Null’s Malice, its hatred for the Gods and their creation, seeping through miles of rock from the planet core over the millennia, to finally begin insidiously infecting the living beings of the surface.

So far, so good, but that doesn’t explain how Demise and his followers came about.

Well let’s look at the Demons that we do know the origin of; ones we actually see at the moment they become a Demon. There’s Vaati, and then all three versions of Ganondorf, each with their own Demon origin story. All four of these people were once mortals, sorcerers, who become a Demon by using or absorbing something of great power. Vaati absorbed the Light Force from Zelda in Minish Cap. Ocarina of Time Ganondorf uses the Triforce of Power. Four-Swords Adventures - the Trident, and Tears of the Kingdom - a Zonai Secret Stone.

We also have a case of a Demon transforming into a human, in the shape of Skyward Sword’s Batreaux, showing that perhaps the differences between the two tribes are not so vast.

It’s interesting that Demons are referred to as a tribe, in a similar way to the other races of Hyrule. Monsters and other evil beings are not usually given that distinction (the Bokoblins or Lizalfos are never called a tribe despite displaying intelligence.)

It is my belief that all Demons, except perhaps ones that are specifically magical creations of Demon Kings, were once mortal beings, distinguishing them from monsters, and that Demise himself, the origin of evil, was at one time just a man.

He explicitly wants to obtain and use the Triforce, so it is unlikely that he is divine in origin, since Hylia cannot use the Triforce in her immortal form.

Monsters are corrupted versions of Farore’s creations, the flora and fauna of Hyrule; with no will except their masters. But Demon’s are possessed of far more intelligence, cunning and purpose. They are all the dark things hiding in human hearts; greed, lust, envy. They are the dark counterpart to the humans, Hylia’s chosen people, just as their leader Demise is the opposite of Hylia herself.

This is where we have to ramp up the speculation a bit, because it wouldn’t be a Zelda theory without a bit of ass-pulling.

I believe Demise was a man who lived near the end of the Era of Hylia. Perhaps he was the first in the long line of humans who would covet the Triforce. Perhaps he was only seeking power in any form, and his grand ambitions didn’t emerge until his transformation.

Magic and magic wielders seem to have been more prominent in the Era of Hylia so perhaps Demise was a sorcerer, who chose to break away from Hylia’s teachings, and search for other sources of power, becoming one of the first black magicians.

My very headcanon-y idea is that he was the King of the Eldin region, ruler of the civilisation that built the Earth Temple and the Fire Sanctuary. Obviously as worshippers of Din, they valued Power over all other things. Perhaps he became jealous of the Faron and Lanayru regions for their Gates of Time, or for their favour with Hylia. But to stand against a god, he needed the power of Null. And so he led his most loyal followers to the Ancient Cisterns' depths.

Whatever the reason, I believe he caught wind of stories about the strange substance with magical properties discovered in Lake Floria, and went to investigate. When he found the Malice of Null in the subterranean labyrinth below Faron, and realised the eldritch power it originated from, he performed a dark ritual to absorb some of Null’s power for himself, transforming into the first Demon King, in a similar manner to many of his future incarnations.

From the depths he used his new powers to amass an army of Demons and monsters by corrupting captured humans and animals with Null’s Malice. As the human civilizations thrived on the surface, the Demon Tribes ranks swelled, unseen below them, before eventually bursting through the earth (much like Null would wish to do) and assaulting the peaceful world.

So Demise is the origin of all evil, Demons and monsters, but only by using Null’s latent power, contained in the Malice seeping out from the Earth’s core, to transform himself into the progenitor of the Demon Tribe. You could argue that means Null should be the source of evil, but Null seems beyond things like Good and Evil, being more like an elemental force, with a singular goal; the destruction of the Golden Goddesses and everything they created. So while Null is the source of Demise’s power, the once-human Demise is the source of evil.

Once transformed, he acts as an arbiter for Null in the same way that Hylia does for Din, Nayru and Farore. Demise and the Demons probably wouldn’t worship Null like the Hylians worship their Gods, but through the Malice they are connected, like a perversion of the Hylian’s “magic-infused blood” and “ability to hear special messages from the Gods.” One example of Null’s will influencing a Demon could be Majora, whose only stated goal is to “consume everything”, a goal shared by Null. It crashing the moon into the Earth could even be viewed as an attempt to free Null from its prison, though it is unclear if Null exists in Termina.

When Fi says Demise is an “eternal being” who has “conquered time”, she might really be referring to the source of “Demise, the Demon King’s” power; the eternal Null, who has managed to defy the gods and influence events outside its physical and metaphysical prison. I acknowledge this is a bit of a stretch but to be fair this description is said by Fi when facing Demise in the climactic battle. It wouldn’t be very logical for her to say “Oh by the way, this guy's only borrowing power from something way scarier” to Link right before the fight of his life.

And while Null is not necessarily a force of evil in the world while it is sealed away, it is the spring that feeds all the dark magic in Hyrule - in the same way that the Triforce and by extension, the Golden Goddesses, are the source of light magic - as it seeks to exert its will fully on the world, up until Null is destroyed in Echoes of Wisdom.

reupload due to OG post having broken links

According to archives, in 1996 there was an official collaberative story created by Nintendo known as "a Hyrulean Adventure" (and/or a Hyrulean Adventure: a Link to the future)? as detailed in this Zelda wiki article (https://zeldawiki.wiki/wiki/A\_Hyrulean\_Adventure:\_A\_Link\_to\_the\_Future) the story featured an unknown island on hyrule, and new species known as Kani and Shigrami. There was also a mysterious empire known as the Sirius Empire.

Nintendo power ran a similar story earlier in that year, about Metroid, known as Blood of the Chozo (https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Blood\_of\_the\_Chozo) one that had a lot of lore created by Nintendo. unfortunately, that story is barely archived, and in the case of Hyrulean Adventure, it isn't archived at all.

So, i figured i'd ask on here- does anyone have any info, or more unlikely, memories, about this event, or any parts of the story (specifically parts created by nintendo power, but really any info would be helpful)? i've been working on archiving it on the wiki, so i figured i'd ask here.

more info, to potentially jog memories:

\-it featured people being shipwrecked on an island and building a city

\-it was on nintendo power's AOL chatrooms

\-an empire known as the Sirius Empire emerged from the wastelands of the island.

I remember growing up and reading on internet chat forums where most Zelda fans really hated this game. I heard criticisms along the lines of how the art style is too childish looking or how the sailing too boring. Nowadays, I see that there are fans who now have a special fondness and nostalgia for this game. The question I have is, how old school fans of the series feel about Wind Waker now?

1. Majoras Mask
2. Ocarina of Time
3. Skyward Sword
4. The Wind Waker
5. Twilight Princess
6. Tears of the Kingdom
7. A Link to the Past
8. Breath of the Wild
9. A Link Between Worlds
10. Links Awakening
11. The Minish Cap
12. Echoes of Wisdom
13. Phantom Hourglass
14. Oracle of Seasons
15. Spirit Tracks
16. Oracle of Ages
17. The Legend of Zelda
18. Four Swords
19. Links Adventure

So, the Downfall Timeline. Everyone loves the Downfall Timeline, right guys?

... right guys?

Okay, i think this will be a rather long post. I've wanted to write this for a long time, and while i considered scrapping it, i've decided against this because i have done so much research on this

I am not interested in the in-universe origin of the Downfall Timeline. I have my own ideas for it. I am, however, very interested in how they came up with it and, perhaps, how it could relate to another very sensitive point in the official timeline: the placement of Four Swords Adventures

So, quick recap here on the timeline up to 1998:

A Link to the Past was made as a distant prequel to the NES games. This was first confirmed in an interview with Miyamoto for The Legend of Zelda Perfect Fan Book, which was translated by @makgameadv on Twitter

This was also supported by both the japanese and american boxes, as well as the official A Link to the Past guide

Quote from the ALttP japanese box: "This time, the stage is set a long time before Link's adventures, in an era when Hyrule was still one country."

Quote from the ALttP american box: "The predecessors of Link and Zelda face monsters on the march when a menacing magician takes over the kingdom."

Quote from official ALttP guide (Zelda 1 section): "Although The Legend of Zelda appeared first in the series of Zelda adventures, it actually takes place many years after the third game. In this time, Hyrule had declined, becoming a rustic land with few remaining signs of its earlier glory. The land was overrun, and Ganon was to blame. At the heart of the conflict lay a missing piece of the Triforce Princess Zelda."

Quote from official ALttP guide (ALttP section): "Back in the mists of time, before the era of The Legend of Zelda and The Adventure of Link, Hyrule was a land of fabulous palaces and magic. It was also a troubled land, and the divisions of light and dark were tearing it apart. The origins of this conflict lay even deeper in the shadows of time, with the coming of the Triforce and the greed of Ganondorf, King of Thieves."

Besides, the game itself ends with Link recovering the Triforce from Ganon, which could reasonably lead to the Golden Era, mentioned in The Adventure of Link. The Silver Arrows, which debuted in Zelda 1, are also made in ALttP.

Then comes Ocarina of Time, and both the character designer and script director of the N64 game said it was supposed to be the Imprisoning War, mentioned in the manual of ALttP. The conflict where the thief Ganondorf claimed the Triforce, became Ganon and was sealed in the Golden Land by Seven Sages. In fact, the script director even said that the Sages were named after some of the towns from TAoL to imply that the towns were named after them in-universe.

According to Satoru Takizawa, the character designer of OoT: "This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda."

According to Toru Osawa, the script director of OoT: "Though in this game Zelda is now included in the Seven Sages, the other six have the names of the town names from the Disk System edition "The Adventure of Link." In the SNES edition game, the story "Long ago, there was a war called the Imprisoning War" was passed along. A name in the Imprisoning War era is the name of a Town later."

Before we continue, i will give an overview on the Imprisoning War using multiple dialogues from the GBA version of ALttP:

"The Triforce will grant the wishes of whoever touches it, as long as that person lives... That is why it was hidden in the Golden Land. Only a select few were told of its location, but at some point that knowledge was lost... The one who rediscovered the Golden Land was an evil thief named Ganondorf. Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World...

(...)

Ganon's wish was to conquer the world. That wish changed the Golden Land into the Dark World. After building up his power, Ganon planned to go on to the Light World to fulfill his wish.

(...)

As the sages sealed the way to the Dark World, the Knights of Hyrule defended them from the attacks of evil monsters. I heard that the Knights of Hyrule were nearly wiped out in that battle..."

OoT and the Imprisoning War had inconsistencies, yes (the Knights of Hyrule being absent from OoT is a very noticeable one), but most of them could be chalked up to "the story of the Imprisoning War in ALttP is a legend based on OoT, which is the true event, that's why there are some differences". There was a big one, though, that couldn't be easily explained: the Triforce. Ganondorf was sealed at the end of OoT with the Triforce of Power, but in ALttP he had the full Triforce. This couldn't be a retcon (OoT retroactively stablishing that Ganon only had the ToP in ALttP) because the whole plot of ALttP lies on Ganon having the Triforce. In fact, we see that he was guarding the Triforce at the end!

Despite this, though, it was pretty clear the intention was for OoT to be the Imprisoning War. North Castle, the oldest Zelda site still online, was made in 1997 and in 1998 a page about the chronology of the series was made, which stated the following: "Another point of interest is the number of Links and Zeldas. I have put numbers next to them when each generation is born. Link and Zelda I are from The Ocarina of Time on the Nintendo 64. Link and Zelda II are from A Link to the Past on the SNES and Link's Awakening on the Gameboy. Zelda III is mentioned in Zelda II, as a Princess put to sleep generations ago. Finally Link III and Zelda IV are from the original The Legend of Zelda games on the NES, The Legend of Zelda and Link's Adventure."

Majora's Mask was released in 2000 as a sidestory to OoT and the Oracle Games came in 2001 as interquels, set between ALttP and LA. We also had Four Sword in 2002, and Aonuma later said in 2004 that it was the earliest game at the time.

So the timeline by 2002 was FS > OoT (with MM as a sidestory) > ALttP > OoS/OoA > LA > TLoZ/TAoL. That's fine... Until The Wind Waker came in and took ALttP's place as the sequel to OoT. The Split Timeline was also confirmed by Eiji Aonuma in 2002, and 4 years later we saw the Child sequel to OoT in Twilight Princess. This left ALttP (and, by proxy, all of the older 2D games) apparently out of the timeline, as its relationship to OoT had been severed.

I think that i have tracked all of the Zelda team's movements trying to include the older 2D games again in the timeline after TWW was released, and i will explain my reasoning with evidences here

Nothing that i will show here is new, but i've never seen all of this in the same page. I've also never seen someone trying to point an exact timeframe for when the Downfall Timeline was officialized, as i plan on doing.

My first idea is that, after TWW was released, ALttP and the other games were moved to the Child Timeline, after MM. Basically the master document on the timeline, mentioned by Miyamoto in 2002, would have been this:

..............TWW

............../

FS - OoT

..............\

..............MM - ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA - TLoZ/TAoL

However it wouldn't be as simple as saying that Ganondorf tried to bruteforce his way into the Sacred Realm and the Imprisoning War would've happened. The Child ending of OoT heavily implied Link now had the Triforce of Courage, which means that the Triforce was no longer complete in the Sacred Realm. I think that there was a very big gap between MM and ALttP where a lot of unseen things happened, like the Triforce being reunited and a new Ganondorf being born to become the Ganon from the 2D games, not OoT Ganondorf. Basically a gap like the one we have between the timeline and BotW, where a lot of things happened and it's not very clear what exactly happened. In the same 2004 interview where he confirmed FS as the oldest game, Aonuma said this: "To me storyline is important, and as producer, I am going to be going through, and trying to bring all of these stories together, and kind of make them a little bit more clear. Unfortunately, we just haven’t done that yet."

To me, this implies that there were still unclear things to be answered in order to fully connect all games. We know he couldn't be talking about FS, OoT, MM and TWW, so he had to be talking about ALttP and its sequels in relation to the newer games. In other words, at the time of TWW, the Zelda team didn't exactly knew how the Child Timeline would lead into ALttP, they only knew that it had to lead into ALttP. And the first step, i believe, was supposed to be Four Swords Adventures.

This is an old story in the theorizing community by now, but there are some evidences that, at some point, FSA was supposed to be a new Imprisoning War, replacing OoT and introducing a new Ganon, Ganondorf II. Benjamin Lamoreux wrote an article for Zelda Dungeon about it, so i'll link it so everyone can read and get a quick explanation on the theory that FSA was going to be a new prequel to ALttP

If this is accurate, and i believe it was, the timeline by 2004, with FSA and The Minish Cap, would've looked like this:

........................TWW

......................../

TMC - FS - OoT

........................\

........................MM - FSA - ALttP/OoS/OoA/LA - TLoZ/TAoL

However, FSA wasn't released as planned. The story was heavily altered, to the point that the actual game could no longer be the Imprisoning War. Not only that, but "what happened to Ganondorf I?" was still a question with no official answer. Or at least it had no official answer until Twilight Princess was released two years later. Aonuma confirmed in an interview in february 2007 that Twilight Princess as a sequel to OoT in the Child Timeline. It revealed that the whole Triforce had split when OoT Link came back in time, and also showed the death of Ganondorf I. TP showed the Master Sword on the Sacred Grove, like in ALttP, and stablished that there was an all-Hylian group of Sages on the CT. it was clear, however, that there had been some changes in the plot during development.

It's interesting that Ganondorf I had a cut monologue that said that another of his blood would appear in the next time that a hero and a princess appeared: "When the chosen ones appear... They are always born into this world in perfect balance. That is the destiny of the chosen. That is the fate decreed by your gods, the only path for those who bear their crests. When this world brings forth another marked as you are... Know too, that it shall also be visited by one of my blood."

It is important to note, however, that this is just Nintendo of America's translation. The original japanese version seems to be more vague, but it still mentions the "anthithesis" to the hero and the princess and an upcoming era of bloodshed, which i believe were supposed to foreshadow Ganon II and the Imprisoning War: "When one appears bearing the chosen power, so shall their antithesis invariably come into being. That is the destiny of those who bear the crests granted by the gods in which you believe. Each time a crest-bearer appears in this world, an era of bloodshed ever shall follow."

This seems a stretch at first, but both FSA and TP were made roughly at the same time and, more importantly, had the same writer, Aya Kyogoku, the current director of the Animal Crossing games. It would be reasonable for her to want to connect both of the games that she worked in, with TP killing off Ganondorf I and FSA introducing Ganondorf II

Once again, however, things eventually changed. I don't know why, exactly, but after TP was released Aonuma finally created the Downfall Timeline to place ALttP, OoS/OoA, LA, TLoZ and TAoL. FSA, no longer being able to be placed between OoT and ALttP, was vestigially kept after TP. The main reason for me to believe the Downfall Timeline was made around here is the cancelled Retro Studio Sheikah game, which can be seen here

According to the artist who did the concept arts, this project was being developed around 2005-2008 and would take place after the "bad ending of Ocarina of Time". More specifically, i have reasons to believe it was being developed between 2007 and 2008

The description for OoT on the Wii Virtual Console, in february 27th, 2007, included this passage, translated with Google Translate: "The names of the characters in the game are the same as the names of towns that appear in the Disk System software "The Adventure of Link", and there are plot elements that are similar to the old tales told in "A Link to the Past", so there are some gimmicks that will entertain those who have played the previous games."

This is relevant because it was the first time in almost 10 years where the connection between OoT and the older games was officially acknowledged. I believe this was because even the Zelda team was unsure of how exactly ALttP connected to OoT in a post-TWW world and it was tentatively moved to the end of the Child Timeline. FSA and TP were meant to connect MM and ALttP, but ultimately the final releases didn't worked as originally intended, so Aonuma felt it would be better to make a third branch to reconnect OoT and ALttP and explain the Triforce plothole that i mentioned above

Both Aonuma's interview confirming TP's placement and the existence of only two branches in the timeline and this description implying OoT was the Imprisoning War are from february 2007, so i believe the Downfall Timeline was made between those two events, somewhere in february 2007. Two years later, in 2009, Aonuma once again affirmed the connection between OoT and the older games: "Each of the races has a character fated to become on the sages later on. We named them after towns in The Adventure of Link so it would appear that the towns had been named after them. (In the world of Zelda, the events of Ocarina of Time occur before the events of The Adventure of Link.)"

So this is my whole essay on the development of the Downfall Timeline, and how ALttP went from a sequel to OoT on the Adult Timeline (despite the Triforce issue) to a sequel to OoT on the Child Timeline and then to a sequel to OoT on the newly made Downfall Timeline. In short, this is how i think things happened:

-1998: Ocarina of Time is released as a prequel to A Link to the Past

-2002: The Wind Waker is released as OoT's sequel, ALttP and the other games are moved to the end of the Child Timeline

-2004-2006: FSA and TP are released, originally intended to bridge MM and ALttP but failing

-Mid february 2007: The Downfall Timeline is finally made

- 2011: Hyrule Historia is released, finally revealing to the public the existence of the Downfall Timeline

Well, this is it. Thanks everyone for reading it. I hope this has shed a new light on how i think we ended up with the Downfall Timeline and why FSA is on the Child Timeline

I recently completed echoes of wisdom and while I loved it, a part of me was wondering all throughout if the switch to Zelda as the central protagonist affected much in the story. Of course this is 2D Zelda so I shouldn't expect as much story content as, say, Skyward Sword, but there were times I thought to myself "would anything change if link was still the protagonist?" In terms of the story that is.

I think the usage of Zelda shined the most with the plot points regarding hyrule castle as we see a bit of her relationship with the king and impa, but outside of that, she's basically unknown by most other NPCs not related to the castle/Castle Town so nothing much would've changed if link was the hero.

Honestly this isn't much of an issue though I wish we could have seen Zelda's role as princess affect how others treated her or, as consolation to her being a silent protagonist, have link actually speak.

I always wondered about that, because in the first games he is always that pig-like beast and suddenly in Ocarina of Time he had his real "human" form (Ganondorf). Is there any information about that? And if not, why do you think it was changed by Nintendo like that?

Btw random but did you ever noticed how Ganondorf and Bowser both have redish longer hair? It's like if it's Miyamotos thing to do to his villains lol

I have an interesting theory in regards to a hard, definitive timeline placement of the Wild era games, but I wanted to make sure I was considering all the evidence I possibly could before I posted it somewhere. I also hadn't seen much timeline discussion as it relates to any new evidence that appeared in Tears of the Kingdom, so I wanted to just have a centralized place for all of the potential evidence. 

Anything at all is welcome. If you have your own theory, leave it here. Want to expand on a point that's already been mentioned? Say it. Random detail you aren't sure fits? Leave it anyway. Nothing is too crazy. 

Here's what I remember, I'll update if I think of anything else myself: 

- The Rito's presence 

- The Zora's presence alongside the Rito 

- Koroks 

- Rock Salt's description, could be Lanayru from Skyward Sword or Wind Waker's Great Sea 

- The Hyrule Warriors theory, either Child Timeline because it's only timeline specific game reference was Twilight Princess before DLC, or Unified Timeline because of the DLC and the time powers that would make a unified timeline possible in the first place 

- Arbiter's Grounds present in Breath of the Wild 

- The springs of power and courage being the same as they were in Skyward Sword 

- The Forgotten Temple 

- Lon Lon Ranch's ruins 

- "Whether skyward bound, adrift in time, or steeped in the glowing embers of twilight..." also happens to be the same three games that make up Hyrule Warriors before the DLC got involved 

- Referring to the Divine Beasts as divine beasts, similar to Midna's comment about a blue-eyed divine beast 

- Majora's Mask DLC item 

- Ruto is mentioned on the Zora's stone tablets 

- Basically all the location names 

- Fi's chiming 

- Hyrule being sick of Ganon reincarnating so much, possibly evidence for the downfall timeline 

- The Downfall Timeline only features the Ganon form, not the Ganondorf one, although with Tears of the Kingdom this might invalidate this evidence being in favor of the Downfall Timeline (Side Note: Is Calamity Ganon a projection of Tears of the Kingdom's Ganondorf? How can there be incarnations of Ganon when one is sealed, that's not how it's worked in the past unless it's an Agahnim situation, but with the power Calamity Ganon is shown to have I find myself skeptical) 

- Temple of Time and Ocarina of Time's Castle Town ruins on the Great Plateau 

- Wolf Link 

- Ooccaa may have evolved into the Rito instead of being the same Rito as the Adult Timeline, although the stone relief in TP's Castle Town I usually see in association with this has the Ooccaa in a different panel 

- The Fokka from Adventure of Link, which are bipedial birdmen warriors 

- Hyrule Castle's architecture from Breath of the Wild and Twilight Princess is the most similar to each other 

- Breath of the Wild's map is very close geographically with A Link to the Past 

- Spectacle Rock is only in the Downfall Timeline 

- Lynels are also only in the Downfall Timeline, depending on where Echoes of Wisdom falls 

- "He has given up on reincarnation and assumed his pure, enraged form." I heard somewhere this was mistranslated into meaning the opposite, meaning he decided it was better to reincarnate faster(?) but it's a confusing comment to me either way. 

- The yellow band present on the Cap of the Wild is present on every game from the Downfall Timeline and the Downfall Timeline only, again, depending on the Echoes of Wisdom placement 

- Fragmented Monument quest 

- Eventide Island referencing Link's Awakening 

- River Zora vs. Sea Zora, friendly Zora are only present in the Central and Child Timelines, Rito in the Adult Timeline, and turn into River Zora and become enemies in the Downfall Timeline 

- Manhandla's appear in the Downfall Timeline and Four Swords Adventures, which is in the Child Timeline 

- Valley of Seers lining up with the Spring of Power in Breath of the Wild 

- Blue being a symbol of respect of the Royal Family in the Champion's Tunic description, Hyrule Warriors is the most obvious culprit but the Ocarina of Time is also blue, something only the Royal Family is supposed to have access to, or the Hylian Shield's blue 

- Ganondorf's five chain crown piece from Twilight Princess, consistent with his Hyrule Warriors appearance, and Calamity Ganon has a similar piece made of Shiekah technology 

- Ganon is mostly bipedal, quadrupedal in Twilight Princess, Hyrule Warriors, and Dark Beast Ganon, tusks also match 

- Vah Medoh is named after Medli, while the others are named after Ocarina of Time's Ruto, Darunia, and Nabooru 

Over the years, I've noticed that some fans of BotW don't hesitate to name it among the most "influental" games of the current gaming landscape. But frankly, I don't see it? To me it feels like people jump to that conclusion because they see its huge sales numbers and because gaming outlets often rank BotW very highly in their top game lists.

But where is the influence in actual game design? Ironically, while I'm not the biggest BotW fan, I truly WISH it had big influence. Because it irritates me to no end that exploration in action adventure games has been dying for a while now. More and more developers follow the Ubisoft formula of guiding you through an entire campaign with glowing breadcrumbs, artificial GPS systems and map icons that completely destroy player agency. BotW should have been the antidote for this and prove to publishers that their audiences can handle action adventures with free exploration.

Yet the reality is, almost no one does exploration like BotW - everything's still leaning towards Ubi-maps and handholding. It's like 30 million copies sold never happened or other developers didn't understand the appeal. Because some games copied the graphical style of BotW, but not the actual game approach. When I think of influential games of the past years, I'd point to Resident Evil 2 Remake. It singlehandedly reinvented 3rd person survival horror and we simply wouldn't have gotten Silent Hill 2 Remake, Alan Wake 2, an Alone in the Dark Reboot, Dead Space Remake, etc. without its big success. The closest connection to BotW's game design I can find is Elden Ring, but one could argue that FROM Software was always heading towards this kind of game.

So I played and beat oracle of ages first. I got the noble sword and beat that game, and then linked the game to seasons. In seasons, I used the king zora secret to get the noble sword again (and therefore the master sword in ages.) in order to get the master sword in Seasons, I’ve been told that I need to talk to the old lady by the seed tree in Lynna Village.

My problem is, she’s not there? The game is definitely beaten and my game is linked. I don’t know how to make her appear. Any suggestions?

For clarity’s sake: I have the master sword in Ages (my first game.) I have the noble sword in Seasons (my linked game.)

The Dark Realm in Spirit Tracks and the Oracle games have demons, or malevolent beings with evil intent originating from, or being summoned from them. In spirit tracks, the final battle takes place in an arena that looks strikingly similar to Hyrule, specifically around the area at the beginning of the game where Cole and Alfonzo fight.

In Four Swords Adventures magicians of evil intent seem to originate here as well, along with other monsters having a strong connection to the Dark World. The World also features a parallel world practically identical to Hyrule. I'm wondering if these two places are the same place, and if it's all essentially a hell where demons originate.

To be clear before i start, this is NOT timeline related. Not directly, at least. You can read it as such if you want, but my focus here are the games individually

Every once in a while, an article pops out in Nintendo-related groups where Aonuma says that the Zelda team prioritizes gameplay and then build the story around it, and somehow a lot of people mistakenly interpret that he is saying story does not matter. This is not true at all

Having gameplay as a priority, i'd say, is the right thing to do. A game with a simple/nonexistent story but with good gameplay is always better than a game with an amazing story and complex characters but with a boring gameplay. I wouldn't play the latter, i would just watch the cutscenes on YouTube. Frankly, doing that might even help them making the gameplay flow with the story better, as the story is built around the gameplay

Like, if the Zelda team did not cared about doing good stories for the games, they could easily just take the easy route and make every game with the simple story from Zelda 1, but with different gameplay styles each time. No Zelda game has the same exact story. There are parallels, sometimes deliberate parallels, but they are all unique when it comes to what's going on with their narrative.

In fact, one of the first things Aonuma said when he became the main producer of the series was this: "To me storyline is important, and as producer, I am going to be going through, and trying to bring all of these stories together, and kind of make them a little bit more clear."

Even Miyamoto, infamously and wrongly known to some as "Mr. I Hate Storylines", said that stories are important. He just doesn't want them to become so convoluted people won't understand

"The most important thing for me, is that the player get sucked into the game. I want the games to be easy to understand, and that the people appreciate the games content, its core. I will never deny the importance of a great story, but the plot should never get that important that it becomes unclear."

Those kinds of statements aren't as nearly as shared as the ones where they say gameplay is their priority

So yeah, i think some people fail to realize that this is not exclusive to Zelda. I'd say most games are made with the gameplay first because that's their nature as interactive media. Even games with more complex stories than Zelda are made like that. That doesn't mean they do not care about putting a good story in the game and anyone who plays Zelda can see they always try to do something different when it comes to the plot, just like they do for the gameplay

Yes, that also does not means Zelda has the deepest narratives out there. But, sometimes, it is better not to. A lot of game franchises are being meme'd on the internet due to their stories being so complex they become confusing and borderline unable to be understood without a 3-hour youtube video. At the end of the day, Zelda games do not have extremely deep and Oscar-winning stories, but they do not have nonenxistent stories either. Like Miyamoto said, they are just... good stories. And sometimes that's more than enough

Thanks for your attention

Back at it again with a new "Roll for..." Challenge Playthrough. I've made a few of these (most recently posted about Skyward Sword), but to summarize: the basic idea is you roll on a table of categories to determine what limits you put on yourself for each section of the game. Each section is a little different that way, and you have to continually adapt as you progress. Here's a link to the dropbox that has the template sheet in it.

If anyone gives it a shot let me know how it goes! I'd love to hear feedback as this isn't this first "Roll for..." challenge I've made.

Sorry if this has already been answered but i'm making a Zelda powerpoint for my powerpoint night where i'm going to be explaining the basics of Zelda and this includes the timeline. I thought I understood how the timeline split works between the child and adult timelines but i'm confused as to why the adult timeline exists at all.

So when we get sent back in time at the end of OOT and then warn the kingdom to stop Ganondorf from taking over then why does he still exist for the adult timeline to exist? Due to basics of time travel then theoretically he shouldn't even exist for the adult timeline because we prevented that future from coming to fruition, then again neither should Zelda.

Can someone please explain to me how this is possible that he can exist in both realities?

I wrote this thing a couple of days ago

So, quick recap: we know from many, many, many sources that ALttP was seen as a prequel to the NES games, the infamous Miyamoto order notwithstanding. We also know from both the character designer and script director of OoT that OoT was made as an adaptation of the Sealing War, the backstory of ALttP. So by 1998 the order was OoT > ALttP/LA > TLoZ/TAoL

There are problems with every other theory. The Extended Adult Timeline (OoT > TWW/PH > ST > Downfall Games) was, from what i can see, the most popular hypothesis pre-Historia. The problem is that Old Hyrule and the Master Sword no longer existed after TWW. The Extended Child Timeline (OoT/MM > TP > FSA > Downfall Games) also has problems because the Sages that sealed Ganon can't be the ones from OoT, and we know they must be because of the towns named after them in TAoL. Heck, Ganon himself can't be the one from OoT

I've made an entire thread on the problems i see with the Minish Cap split theory, feel free to look up on my profile

The only sensible solution to place those games is to separate ALttP/LA from TLoZ/TAoL and place each duo in a different timeline. OoT/MM > TP > FSA > ALttP/LA accounts for the Master Sword and Old Hyrule and without TAoL there is no need to assume the ALttP Sages are the ones from OoT. OoT > TWW/PH > ST > TLoZ/TAoL accounts for the towns named after the Sages and as a bonus also accounts for the lack of the Master Sword in the NES games and allows the sleeping Zelda to actually be Zelda I of New Hyrule. It seems like a perfect solution!

But, if the official timeline did this, they would be ignoring the original intent for... all of the first five games, really. ALttP is no longer a prequel to the NES games and OoT is no longer a direct prequel to ALttP. You might not like the DT and/or think other theories "make more sense", but i think that keeping the original intent intact is a very important thing

The ECT, the EAT, splitting the games between both timelines and the Minish Cap Split all have the same problem: if the Zelda team did this, they would be doing exactly what a lot of people wrongly accuse the timeline of being: an after-the-fact made-up thing that connects games which were not originally supposed to be connected. The justification for the DT is a retcon, yes, but the order itself is what was always intended

Also all alternatives take away all the potential the other two branches have. The AT is a brand new Ganondorf-less Hyrule with infinite potential really and the CT has a Ganon with a fully-functional brain still alive and just waiting the right moment to escape from the Four Sword

Another criticism of the DT is that we don't get to see Ganon getting the Triforce after defeating Link, but the most popular alternative (FSA > ALttP) has the same problem. I'd say it's even worse because we have to assume that Ganon escaped from the Four Sword, formed a band of thieves, found the Sacred Realm, claimed the Triforce (mind you, we also have to assume the Triforce was reunited offscreen after TP and returned to the SR) and then the Sealing War happened. Possible? Yes, but it has unarguably more assumptions than the DT, and there is no clear connection between FSA and ALttP like we have with OoT and ALttP. The ALttP trident doesn't even seems to be the FSA trident upon closer inspection. At this point you might as well just use Ganon's origin in ALttP and place FSA elsewhere. FSA is completely inconsequential to the ECT, despite the FSA/ALttP connection being one of its marketing points since FSA was originally made as a prequel to ALttP. Or was it?

We have no confirmation about FSA originally being a new prequel to ALttP. We have evidence and theories, yes, but no solid proof. Meanwhile, OoT as a prequel to ALttP has been confirmed multiple times throughout the years, with the connection between both games being mentioned as late as 2007, before HH

Also, i think i should address the idea of OoT Link being defeated. There is undeniably a good amount of nostalgic bias against the DT. Clearly, the hero being defeated, by itself, is not a problem to everyone who dislikes the DT as the Minish Cap split is always being thrown around as an alternative. The problem to a lot of people lies at the fact that the Hero of Time specifically is defeated. Some say this renders his journey pointless, which is why the ECT is better. But i'd argue that the ECT is what actually makes the Hero of Time's journey pointless

Cool, he saved future Hyrule. But it was flooded and destroyed. So he went to the past and ended up causing a butterfly effect that leads to the Sealing War, Ganon ends up with the full Triforce instead of only the Triforce of Power and Hyrule becomes a wasteland by the end of the timeline while people in the AT eventually recover and build new thriving lives. Good job, Hero of Time, you managed to create a WORSE future somehow

To finish this rant, another criticism: "oh, if Link can be defeated in any game why don't we have infinite Downfall Timelines?"

This one has always baffled me because the answer is, quite frankly, blatantly obvious: there might be other Downfall Timelines, we just don't see them because there are no other games in them. Besides, in all other occasions where Link loses (including TMC) the world is doomed. If Link dies in Zelda 1, Hyrule is doomed. If Link dies in ALttP, the Light World is doomed. Even in OoT, if Link dies at the Deku Tree dungeon, the world is doomed. HH goes out of its way to specify the DT branches off from the final battle of OoT because this is the single point where Link being defeated does not automatically condemns the world, as the Sages were awakened and could contain Ganon if needed. OoT was, after all, based on a story about Seven Sages sealing Ganon without a hero

I hope this text was good

TLDR: not only the Downfall Timeline keeps the original intent of the first 5 games somewhat intact instead of ignoring it, it also allows for CT Hyrule to have a better future, which would otherwise make the Hero of Time going back to the past a stupid idea

Just picking up the key points:

About the Reveal

Series producer Aonuma acknowledges "a lot of the focus of the topic of conversation was going to be on Zelda being the main protagonist".

But, he says, a bigger concern for him was "whether or not the unique gameplay of the echoes was going to be conveyed properly and understood properly by the viewers".

It's a feeling shared by directors Terada and Sano.

"Whether or not the Zelda fans would accept these new elements was something I was watching over nervously," says Terada, chief of third-party co-developer Grezzo.

Sano says she was "relieved to see that it was being accepted positively, and was really watching closely over my smartphone to see people's reactions the following day as well".

Getting used to the new systems

Aonuma, who says he completed Echoes of Wisdom eight times during its development, admits that he had similar feelings on his first playthrough.

"From the second time through I sort of realised that there's various ways and methods of overcoming these puzzles and overcoming the challenges," he says.

Aonuma says experimenting with different methods helped him to change his experience.

"And so I think that realisation that you can do various things and there are various ways to overcome and solve these puzzles is sort of a turning point of whether you become used to using the echoes in the new game system."

Watching the videos of what the players do

Terada says that the team spent a lot of time testing Echoes of Wisdom's various combinations, but even they were surprised once people got their hands on it.

"Seeing how players are using it, I was really amazed at people's imaginations," he says.

The developers admit they were impressed by one trick that's been widely shared, of players combining a bed with a tornado to propel Zelda into the air.

"That was one that we hadn't thought of," Terada admits.

Sano adds: "Players were using the tornado and the bed to actually climb and go over mountains.

"And this was something that I was amazed by, something that I probably wouldn't be able to do."

Game Criticisms

Many players said the game's frame rate - which governs the smoothness of on-screen animations - was unstable.

Sano confirmed that Echoes of Wisdom uses a variable frame rate, and that the developers felt this was the "best option" available.

Players and reviewers also had complaints about the menu system used to select echoes during the game.

By the end it's possible to have gathered a total of 127, and the main method of selecting them involves scrolling sideways through a very long row of icons.

It can be filtered using options including most used and newest, but many still felt that it could have been more streamlined.

Terada tells Newsbeat the developers wanted to encourage players to experiment.

"One of the essences of this game is being able to figure out different ways of using each of these echoes," he says.

"And so in that sense we wanted players to fall upon and see the echoes that they may not have noticed or have been using while they're sorting through all the echoes that they have."

He also pointed out that there's an alternative notebook method which enables players to access the echoes they've gathered more quickly.

This was all BBC interview but there's also an interview with famitsu:

Link was originally going to speak

In an interview with Famitsu, grezzo director Satoshi Terada and producer Eiji Aonuma revealed that they originally wanted Link to have written dialogue in the game.

The pair explained that throughout the history of The Legend of Zelda series, the idea has always been that the protagonist doesn’t speak. Because the protagonist has always been Link, that essentially meant Link never spoke (other than occasional dialogue options for the player)

However, because Zelda is the protagonist in Echoes of Wisdom, the idea was originally that she would be the only character with no dialogue, allowing Link to have lines for the first time.

“Actually, Link was speaking at first,” Aonuma confirmed.

“I had Link talk a little bit,” Terada agreed, adding: “No matter what I made him say, it just didn’t feel right.”

“Link would never speak like that,” Aonuma explained. “It felt really strange. Nobody knew what Link would say – that’s only natural, because he’s never spoken before.

“So we had to come up with a setting where he couldn’t speak, and that’s how we came up with part of the story.”

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/link-was-going-to-speak-in-zelda-echoes-of-wisdom-but-nintendo-thought-it-didnt-feel-right/

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr7nm2g9n9ro

We know little or nothing about Link's parents in all Zelda games, besides that they are most likely dead, however, I think that the few clues we have about the family of most Links (BOTW/TOTK, AlttP, OoT/MM, as well as comics) point to their fathers being a knights.

BOTW/TOTK - Pretty sure his father was officially a knight.

AlttP - While we don't actually know anything about his father, we could assume that his father was a knight just like his uncle, who could be his father's brother.

OoT/MM - We know nothing about his father but we know his mother died in a war, Link's father probably died fighting in that same war (?).

I have found that much of Zelda's lore is related to japanese mythology in some way, so, I'm wondering if there's some sort of myth about a heroe born from the seed of an unknown soldier. Is my idea baseless and too stupid? Or could there be something interesting here?

I've recently started my LoZ revival (grew up playing Alttp, OoT, MM and MC, but never finished other games) and having a blast after playing WW, BotW, EoW and AlbW for the first time.

When Tears launched, I've mostly seen people complinentint the game, but since it was long before I played any Zelda game I didn't have much contact with general players, only content creators. Now that I've been more into discussions about the franchise again, the general feeling I get is that people are disappointed with Tears and this made my hype go downhill to the point I didn't go right to it after finishing BotW even though I already owned the game.

It's important to say that I know basically nothing about Tears. There are some small things I know but a friend of mine told me they didn't even scratch the surface. This means that I didn't read any detailed reviews that could give more in depth details about content or quality of the game - and which may have made my vision of it all change.

The reason I'm making this post is just to know how you guys feel about Tears. I'm a bit sad that I was really hyped to play it when the game launched (even though there was no sign I'd own a Switch in the future) and now I feel like delaying it until it's the only game left. You guys may argue that expecting nothing may make the experience feel better but to me it's usually the opposite: I prefer to start a game hyped, even more if it's from a franchise I like a lot.

So, how do you see it? Should I really not expect much from it or was my vision of it too biased on spoiler-free opinions?

While most, if not all, possessed the spirit of the hero and held the Triforce of Courage, the many heroes that held the name/title of Link aren't all related to each other, with some having no connection with the others than their shared appearance and name. But I do know that some Links are at least implied to be related to others so I want to know which Links are actually related to another Link?

I do know that at least Twilight Princess Link is implied to be the descendant of OoT/MM Link aka the Hero's shade. Is there any others?

An excerpt from a new interview segment, hosted by Nintendo Dream, reveals EoW was originally what a fair amount of people initially suspected during the "prerelease" buildup of the game: A follow-up sequel to LA.

It details that the base setting of Hyrule being modeled after ALttP, is a surviving vestige of what was originally envisioned:

Google translated excerpt:

Regarding the play field where you traverse the difference in elevation, why did you decide to base the map on "A Link to the Past" (hereafter referred to as "A Link to the Past")?

Terada　Originally, development began as a sequel to Link's Awakening. If Link from Link's Awakening returns to Hyrule, the setting will be Hyrule, so the terrain from Mythra will be the base, considering the historical background.

So initially you had the image of Link from Link's Awakening returning to Hyrule?

Terada　It was still in the early stages, though. The maps were made under those circumstances, so they are remnants of that.

Other interesting tidbits in this interview reveals that the developers contemplated on whether Link should have spoken dialog or not.

Full transcript/interview:

https://www.ndw.jp/eow-interview-241111/

I recently played and loved OoT. I'm at the beginning at Snowhead right now, but I got so confused as to what to do in Snowhead that I just bit my pride and searched up a guide, which I try to avoid doing but whatever.

I noticed that pretty much every guide I saw had players with masks and equipment and stuff that I've literally never seen before, on top of having like double my max health.

Am I playing the game too fast or something? After doing Woodfall, I basically just instantly went to mountains, and I don't feel like exploring much because of the time limit and everything getting reset. I didn't rlly have this problem in OoT, so what do I do? 😭

We all know that fandom is ruining its wikis, and that their wikis' quality is getting worse and worse. Fortunately, the Zelda wiki team managed to fork from Fandom and to have their own, clean wiki on https://zeldawiki.wiki .

Unfortunately, links from zelda.fandom are much better referenced in search engines like Google than zeldawiki links. You have to scroll through the results to find the actual result you look for. And this is why I am going to tell here how to have your browser to automatically redirect fandom links the the Zelda wiki.

1. Install the "Redirector" extension. For Firefox and For Chrome (and most Chromium browsers)

2. Download this or copy-paste it in a .json file

3. Click on the extension icon then click on "Edit Redirects"

4. Click "Import" and select the JSON file you just downloaded/created.

Now all links to zelda.fandom.com articles will be redirected to the zeldawiki.wiki counterpart.

I wonder how many wikis that forked from fandom I could add to this redirect list, I may maintain it for all to use. Or for a way to collectively update this list. I also have redirects for the Jojo wiki.

Just tried playing Majora’s Mask on NSO and it’s probably the hardest Zelda for me other than the first 2 games. Did the Woodfall dungeon but so far the time limit has kept me way too anxious to think for myself so I resorted to a guide for Snowhead. Gave up because I like to discover things for myself and couldn’t do that in this one. Did anyone have similar experiences in other games?

Edit: I’m very thankful for the tips y’all are giving in the replies, I’ll definitely give MM another chance in the future

Reaching a point where I've nearly cleared out the franchise, and I started to get curious which games people generally haven't gotten around to and of those do you plan to play them or are you content to just leave them by the side and why? Are your reasons the reputation, a lack of interest because of gameplay or type of game, the game's age, that you started it and hated it, etc?

My own to play list is:

• Four Swords GBA
• Tri-Force Heroes
• Cadence of Hyrule (currently playing)
• Hyrule Warriors (planning to just do the Definitive Edition instead of playing the WiiU and 3DS ones)
• Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity
• Zelda II
• The Tingle games

So I've mostly got spin-offs left. Other than the Tingle games I do definitely plan to get through all those, the Tingles are a maybe. Probably at least the first Tingle game since I bought it at the and time just never got around to it, the others are a bit more involved to seek out.

I guess I also count Zelda 1 as a game I've still to do since I did it years ago and I save stated for the final dungeon which left a bit of a bad taste and I don't really feel like I beat the game because of that.

EDIT: Forgot I've not done the CD-i games, but probably won't because, I'm sure it's not a hot take to say, I really don't count those.

Hey Gamers,

After seeing that the movie is planned to release 2025 - 2029 I was wondering what you all think about the cast announcement day and the game the movie will be based on.

Also, honestly I was also expecting it to be animated but I also find the idea of getting a live action movie very exciting!

The Triforce can:

1. exist as a singular entity

2. Be split into three pieces

3. Be further split

Fujibayashi prefers the Triforce remain singular as in SS and BotW, or be replaced by a different MacGuffin, as in MC and TotK. Most other games feature a split Triforce, especially those with a human Ganondorf who tries to reassemble it.

The Mario movie had a singular Power Star. The second Sonic movie had the Chaos Emeralds be forged into a singular Master Emerald.

I am leaning 1 as the most likely outcome, but 2 is also possible, since three MacGuffins is not a large number for a two-hour movie, and Link, Zelda, and Ganon are the expected wielders who are otherwise still important to the plot.

Would you want or expect the Triforce to split in the movie?

I know the title might sound weird, but i just needed a place to vent a little and discuss about the series

So, i've been a Zelda fan for 13 years now. My first game was A Link to the Past, and i still love it. It's my favorite Zelda game up to this day. The NES games, the Game Boy Color games, OoT, MM, TWW, TP, the Four Sword Trilogy, BotW... I love all of them

I've always been the kind of fan that likes to theorize and to interpret a work as much as i love to experience the work. "What does that means? If it has no official meaning, what could it mean to me? Why character A acts like that?"

Zelda has always been a "full plate", as we say around here, to me in this regard. But, ever since i started to interact more with the online fandom, i've become a lot less encouraged to do that stuff

Every post you make trying to create an interesting discussion, every video you watch, there is always someone just shouting that none of this matter (as if anything in Zelda mattered. If you don't like things that 'don't matter', why are you playing games in the first place?) and being condescending or, on the worse occasions, just outright treating you like you are stupid for engaging with the series differently. That's just how my brain has always worked

I know this might sound like i'm exaggerating, but reading those mean (and frankly boring) comments for months kinda killed my love for the franchise. I can't play any Zelda game without thinking about that comments and genuinely feeling bad for thinking about the wider universe of the franchise. I've been called idiot/insane twice this week just for liking to write theories and to speculate about the characters, so why would i want to keep doing that? A lab monkey knows how to avoid doing things that might hurt them, and i'm at least smarter than a lab monkey

Even if i didn't felt that way, a theory that you can't share with other people is worthless in my view. I'm not going to keep doing them just to hide it from everyone instead of posting on the internet and starting discussions

I'm truly sorry for bothering you guys with my rant, but this is one of the few Zelda online communities where i know most people know how i feel about the series and what it used to mean to me in the past. Not anymore, though, i'm afraid

Hey, i guess that's for the better. I doubt Aonuma, Fujibayashi and everyone else involved in this franchise would want a fan that likes to theorize about stuff, considering their behavior

Just remember that it's not only the theorizing that doesn't matter. None of this matter. You are not suddenly changing the world just for playing the games without thinking about the lore. If you don't like to see people doing things that "don't matter", you shouldn't even be playing games in the first place

Ganon usually has two origin stories:

1. Trying to conquer Hyrule, getting sealed, ideally in a distant past, and then escaping

2. Betraying the King of Hyrule as his servant, ideally in the recent past or the present

There is the issue of chronological order but also the issue of Ganon being recognizable if he escaped normally without disguising himself and if Hyrule did not forget Ganon.

ALttP does 1 then 2 while disguising Ganon.

TotK does 2 then 1, but this means 2 has to be in the distant past or the same era as the seal, which is somewhat mitigated by using Zelda's time travel PoV.

It seems impractical to establish both 1 and 2 in a two-hour movie, but I am happy to be proven wrong.

The live-action format may suggest a human Ganondorf and likely 2. The series lore likes to have an ancient conflict to make the history grander, but I am unsure how this would be compatible with 1.

Which one would you prefer or expect for future media?

Can you think of other ways to make the two compatible?

So we pick up with me having just received Farore’s Pearl after completing Forbidden Woods, and at this point I have a short laundry list of things I want to do. I discover that I can, in fact, sail wherever I want now, so I set sail for Tingle Island.

I don’t get there, however, because there’s an angry wind god floating around the island due east of it. Cyclos picks me up and dumps me at Dragon Roost. As far as I can tell, there’s no way to escape him once you’re in a fight with him.

I start heading back in that direction, but realize that he’s still there, so I head up to Windfall instead. I start by going back in Tingle’s jail cell, where I discover that you can move the box at the back wall to reveal a tunnel.

After crawling fruitlessly around the maze for a few minutes, I give up and look up a map. I could be wandering around for ages in there. Following the map, I do manage to pick up the Picto Box.

Upon showing it to the shop owner, he allows me upstairs. I didn’t examine all the pictures he had on display, as the few I did try didn’t tell me anything interesting. I did, however, see a chest behind a wall. As best as I can tell, the door leads out to an isolated balcony, which begs the question of how the shop owner gets to it. I, for my part, plan to jump over from the windmill.

I don’t do that yet, though, and instead continue the schoolteacher’s quest by rounding up the street gang. Chasing them was surprisingly annoying—since the button to roll is the same button you use to talk to NPCs, I kept getting yanked into a conversation mid-chase.

Upon catching them all, I was able to give the schoolteacher my first Joy Pendant, and learn that she wants 20 more. I do not have 20 more. I decide to leave Windfall for now and head north to the island Tingle marked with a fairy on his chart.

I don’t check the chart before sailing out, and consequently misremember where the island is. I think it’s the one directly north of Windfall, so I sail there, only to find an island with a powerful gust of wind blocking my way. At this point I check the map, and discover that I am one tile too far east. I sail west, find the Fairy Fountain, and—joy!—receive a bigger wallet.

Finally, I decide to go to Tingle Island, approaching from a different direction this time. I get there, and he is… surprisingly unhelpful. He tells me he can translate charts, but I don’t have any for him to translate. I guess this becomes important later.

Anyway, I have one more thing I want to do before heading to the actual next objective. I head back to Windfall to get the windmill going. It takes me a lot of trial and error, but I do find the correct wind direction eventually. Were you just supposed to guess the direction, or does something tell you?

I can’t seem to do anything at the platform at the top, but that wasn’t the main reason I did this. Now that the windmill is moving, I can jump over to that balcony I mentioned earlier and get the chest, which I do.

I’m now finally ready to head to the next objective, so I sail there, and find… a completely ruined island. Wow. I was not expecting that. The postman shows up, and tells me about the spirit Jabun, who has the pearl I need. He’s locked away behind a strong wall, and the pirates from the beginning of the game are trying to get in.

I’m not thrilled that the pirates are back in the game—I didn’t much like them the first time around. I’m even less thrilled when I find out that they’re back on Windfall, and that I need to follow them there.

So it’s back to Windfall for the third time since completing the last dungeon, and on the way, I notice that it seems to be a permanent rainy night. Interesting. I’m sure that doesn’t mean anything. I’m also getting attacked by a lot more sea creatures, though that might just be because I happened to sail by Cyclops Reef on the way.

Once on Windfall, I… get SO STUCK. I’m told I need to find out what the pirates are up to, so I go on the ship and try to go belowdecks. I’m asked “What do pirates love more than the sea?” I try to guess, thinking it might be “Treasure.” No dice. I assume that there’s somewhere I can go to find the password, so I start exploring the island, and find nothing. I’m not proud of this one, but I eventually cave and look it up.

So tell me: Was there a hint to tell me to go in the bomb shop secret entrance? I knew it was there, I discovered it on my first trip to Windfall, but I didn’t think of it this time. Was there a hint I missed, or are you just supposed to blunder around until you find it?

Anyway, I watch the long cutscene of the pirates loading bombs. At the end, Tetra notices me eavesdropping… and WINKS at me?! What the hell?! She’s been nothing but rude to me this whole game! What is her deal?!?!

I also learn the password, and it’s… Treasure. I actually guessed it on my first try, but I guess the game doesn’t let you enter the ship without seeing this cutscene. I finally enter the ship, do the obstacle course, and get bombs. That’s where I’ve stopped for now. Next stop: Outset Island. I’m also excited to go there for another reason: It’s the other map tile marked with a fairy on Tingle’s chart. Massive wallet, here I come!

No joke! Took me 815 hours across 5 months, but I 100%'d the map without looking up anything!

Man, what an experience that was. Definitely the craziest thing I've ever done in any video game, hands-down! Really happy I stuck through it to the end, though, because it made for an absolutely unforgettable adventure. This game is just magical, and I can't even begin to describe how much I love it!!

BTW, if you're curious as to how, exactly, I did that, I recently made a video documenting the story.

Gotta ask: has anyone else here thought to try this? I ran across at least one other person in r/TOTK who pulled it off in like 600 hours, but that's about it.