Content Warning: this post discusses suicide towards the end.

If you’ve played OoT, you’ll know that there is an item in the trading sequence called the Poacher’s Saw.

But have you ever wondered why it’s called that?

I hadn’t until I recently watched a video highlighting references in EoW to previous Zelda games. It said that the Poacher’s Saw is a ryoba. A Japanese carpentry tool.

Out of curiosity, I checked the Japanese text dump for OoT, and found that the item was called 密猟者のノコギリ, Poacher’s Saw, just like the English version. It wasn’t called a ryoba which it clearly was. A google search confirmed that the Japanese phrase for Poacher’s Saw is only connected with OoT, nothing else.

I had always assumed that a poacher’s saw was just some type of carpentry tool I had never seen or heard of before. But now I realised that “Poacher’s Saw” isn’t a description of a type of saw. It’s a description of the saw’s owner.

So who is the poacher who owned this saw?

The answer is tied to the family in OoT who are the backbone for the trading sequence in the game.

This family is made up of the father, the Master Craftsman who is the boss of the carpenters. The mother, who owns the potion shop in Kakariko Village. Their daughter, the Cucco Lady. And their son, which the Japanese makes clear is the older brother.

Before continuing, let me just confirm that the potion lady is the mother and not the grandmother (like she is in MM). There is some confusion because the Master Carpenter calls her “my old lady”. In Japanese, the phrase used is a rude way to refer to a mature woman. But the Master Craftsman is not a young man himself, and it’s not uncommon for a husband and wife to refer to each other in that way. They also have adult children, not little kids. Furthermore, looking at some Japanese theories that I will refer to later, it seems that native speakers view her as the mother.

Looking at this family, it’s not immediately obvious who the poacher is. The saw was left behind by the son in the Lost Woods, but it belonged to the father, who left it behind with his wife.

You returned the Odd Potion and got the Poacher's Saw! The young punk guy must have left this behind. -Item description

Hey, that saw! It's mine! But... I thought I left that saw with my old lady... Oh well... -Master Craftsman

More importantly, it’s not immediately obvious which of them could be accurately described as a poacher.

A breakthrough happened when someone on Discord shared a Japanese theory with me. You can read it for yourself by using Google Translate on the webpage. While I disagreed with its conclusion, this theory pointed out something I hadn’t noticed before about this family. It’s connection with tigers.

The mother has a pet tiger cub, and the father and son wear tiger printed clothing. Here was now a lead for the possible identity of the poacher. After all, the common definition of a poacher today is someone who captures or kills wild animals.

Was the tiger cub the mother owned illegally obtained? Was the clothing of the father and son actually made out of the skins of adult tigers that they killed?

In the real world, the illegal killing of tigers for parts to be used in traditional medicine is a real problem. In OoT the mother, who is the owner of the potion shop, is called a student of the scientist at Lake Hylia.

Hello there, son. I'm researching the process of making medicine by mixing Lake Hylia's water with various unusual compounds. Perhaps you've met that old lady from the potion shop...she is like a student of mine... Ho ho ho! -Lake Scientist

”Granny's Potion Shop Closed. Gone for Field Study. Please come again! --Granny” -Shop sign (note that in Japanese the phrase for granny can also mean old lady)

I heard that our boss's house is just behind this house. He doesn't want any of us to know, though. -Carpenter

The Lake scientist keeps a wild shark captive in his laboratory, and he makes medicines from the body parts of animals. In fact, this is used as part of the same trading sequence involving the family.

The mother goes on field trips, obviously to collect ingredients for her potions. Does this involve poaching? And why does the father try to keep his wife’s shop a secret from his workers? Is he just embarrassed about his wife, or is he trying to keep their illicit activities secret?

Incidentally, his wife isn’t the only student of the Lake Scientist in the family.

They say that the Chicken Lady goes to the Lakeside Laboratory to study how to breed pocket-sized Cuccos. -Gossip Stone

It’s the Cucco Lady’s Pocket Egg that begins the whole trading sequence.

Thinking about this further, can you see the old potion lady killing a wild adult tiger by herself, or any other large animal? Wouldn’t it make sense for her husband to help her?

My Biggoron tool broke, so I was going to Goron City to get it repaired. Your coming here is great timing. Will you give me my saw? -Master Craftsman

The Master Craftsman gives you the broken Biggoron’s Sword for his saw. The Poacher’s Saw. Why would a carpenter have such a massive sword? He calls it a tool, but a sword is not a carpentry tool. It is a weapon. No master carpenter hacks at wood with a massive sword in order to make things.

Isn’t it more likely that he has such a large weapon in order to use it against dangerous animals? Such as wild tigers?

I could see the father and mother fitting the description of a poacher, but I found it hard to believe that the son was one as well.

But young men these days don't have any ambition... Do you know what I mean, kid? Even my own son doesn't have a job, and he just wanders around all day! -Master Craftsman

People are disgusting. My own father and mother are disgusting. You must be disgusting, too! -Son

While on the surface the father might just be complaining about his son being lazy and unmotivated, what type of ambition is he really referring to? The ambition to join in the family business, and not necessarily the carpentry side of things? His daughter has her own business breeding Cuccos, but his son is clearly a disappointment. The Japanese version of his speech has quotation marks around the word son, highlighting his dissatisfaction.

As for the son, while he also wears tiger printed clothing like his father, he clearly despises his parents and wants nothing to do with them. The only thing he seems to love is, Cojiro, his Cucco. An animal. Would an animal lover like poachers, even if they were family? Would an animal lover also be a poacher themselves? It seems unlikely, though if his clothing really is made from tiger skins that would be hard to explain. Either way, he doesn’t have a good relationship with his parents.

The son doesn’t mention his sister, the Cucco Lady. But perhaps her association with the Lake Scientist, just like their mother, causes a rift between them as well.

As Child Link, you find him at night in Kakariko Village. But as Adult Link, the son is found in the Lost Woods. And analysing this encounter makes the identity of the poacher surprisingly more uncertain. And more tragic.

?? No response. He's sleeping. -Navi

Cojiro? Why? Normally only a nice guy like me can tame you... Which means... You… You must be a nice guy! Must be! You must be!! Please Mr. Nice Guy! Please! Deliver this stuff to the old hag in the potion shop in Kakariko Village! -Son

The son is seemingly sleeping in the Lost Woods and only Cojiro, his only friend, can wake him up. I don’t believe he was just sleeping. I think the curse on the Lost Woods was already beginning to work on him.

For so long, the Kokiri Forest, the source of life, has stood as a barrier, deterring outsiders and maintaining the order of the world... -Great Deku Tree

That guy isn't here anymore. Anybody who comes into the forest will be lost. Everybody will become a Stalfos. Everybody, Stalfos. So, he's not here anymore. Only his saw is left. Hee hee. That medicine is made of forest mushrooms. Give it back! -Fado

The forest is a sacred place. It deters outsiders and protects itself with a curse. Any adult who gets lost within will become a Stalfos (Children become Skull Kids). I believe this is what is starting to happen to the son when Link finds him asleep.

In a previous post, I highlighted excerpts of an interview with the developers of OoT, in one of the answers, Koizumi confirms what happens to the son:

Fado, the Kokiri girl who is waiting for you, is saying a meaningful message. "They all become Stalfos.” That's right, everyone who wanders into the Lost Forest becomes a Stalfos and lives in the Forest Temple.

Stalfos are the ghosts of people who die in the Lost Woods from the curse. (Check out the rest of that post to see what Koizumi confirms about the Graveyard Boy.)

Did you also notice what Fado, the Kokiri forest spirit, says at the end?

That medicine is made of forest mushrooms. Give it back!

She is angry that the medicine was made from mushrooms taken from the forest and wants it back. When you do so, then she gives you the Poacher’s Saw.

A second definition of a poacher is someone who trespasses or steals.

From Fado the forest spirit’s point of view, who is the poacher?

It’s the son.

Why was the son trespassing in the forest anyway?

My brother must have been very lonely... -Cucco Lady

This is what his sister says when she finds out what happens to him. Her brother hated everyone except his pet bird. He was clearly depressed. I have to give a warning again for the following content.

In Japan, there is a famous forest called Aokigahara, or the Sea of Trees, near Mount Fuji. The forest is historically known as the home of yūrei, ghosts of the dead. I’m sure you can see the similarities with the Lost Woods. In recent history, the forest has become famous for being one of the most used sites for suicide. “Because of this, signs at the head of some trails urge suicidal visitors to think of their families and contact a suicide prevention association.”

I believe the story of the son in OoT might be mirroring this famous place in Japan.

Why did the son, who was depressed, go to the forest full of the ghosts of dead people? What was it that finally woke him up? His only friend in the world, Cojiro. And what does he say when he sees that Cojiro is with Link?

Normally only a nice guy like me can tame you... Which means... You… You must be a nice guy! Must be! You must be!!

Do you see how excited the son sounds? He has finally found another nice person in the world apart from himself. He has found someone who could potentially be his friend. Not an animal, but another person. What does he say when he realises he is no longer alone?

Please Mr. Nice Guy! Please! Deliver this stuff to the old hag in the potion shop in Kakariko Village!

He begs Link to deliver the Odd Mushroom from the forest for his mother to make a potion in order to save him from the curse that is already working on him. In a tragic twist, he must turn to the mother he despises to save his life.

That bum! He had to go into the forest... ..... I see. If you see that fool, give this to him. It is the strongest medicine I have ever produced. However, this potion will not work on a monster... They say that there is no medicine that can cure a fool... I guess that's true... -Potion Lady

The mother realises how dangerous it is to go into the forest, something we know she has never done herself.

I heard that the Lost Woods, where fairies live, is a strange place with many mysterious smells. I wish I could just once make medicine with some of the strange things I might find there...

Using the Odd Mushroom taken from the forest, the mother is able to make the strongest medicine she has ever produced. But she warns that it will only work on a human. Sadly, Link does not reach the son in time with the Odd Potion.

It is a tragic irony that the son who hated his parents, probably because they were poachers, was himself judged a poacher by the Forest. It is sad that his mother was able to make her greatest medicine using a mushroom stolen from the forest, but it was unable to save her son’s life. It is even sadder that the son lost his life just when he had finally found something worth living for, a friend.

Next time you play OoT and start the trading sequence, I hope you will appreciate even more this small family drama that plays out within the game.

So, Ganondorf

We have three of them. The regular one, the one from FSA and the one from TotK. I feel like the reveal of a Ganondorf who existed during Hyrule's founding might shed some light on all of this. This is a theory others have made independently, so i'm not claiming i made it. I just came up with it like others did

In the cutscene where Ganondorf bows to King Rauru and Queen Sonia, two gerudo an be seen alongside him that raise some eyebrows: younger versions of Koume and Kotake, the Twinrova Witches. They were introduced as Ganondorf's surrogate mothers in OoT

What i am proposing is: OoT Ganondorf was raised by Twinrova to be a successor to TotK Ganondorf

I can't say i know how OoT Ganondorf was born, but i believe it involved TotK Ganondorf's malice and soul. Millennia after being sealed by King Rauru, TotKDorf looks like a corpse, acts like a corpse and probably smells like a corpse too. I think it's safe to say he is in some kind of death state

From the Oracle Games, we know Twinrova are able to resurrect Ganon, as they try to do that. A resurrection is to reanimate a body with a soul. Reincarnation is to place a soul on a new body instead. If they are able to manipulate Ganon's soul like that, maybe they were able to place TotKdorf's soul on a newborn gerudo baby made out of his malice. Ganondorf II. The one we know and love. Since they commanded the gerudo tribe from the shadows, it was easy to pretend the baby had a natural birth and he became king

After being revived and defeated countless times in an unknown timeline branch (it's the Downfall Timeline), Ganondorf II eventually became Calamity Ganon. Totkdorf's pure malice incarnate. And after he was defeated at the end of BotW, his soul finally returned to TotkDorf

I think it's interesting to mention in this theory that, while Koume and Kotake died in both the Downfall and Adult branches, their fate on the Child Branch is not known. It's possible they are still alive. And the Child Branch is the only one where a new Ganondorf appears after Ganondorf II's death in FSA. Maybe he is a second attempt at creating an heir to the Demon King of old

I understand some might not like the implications of OoT Ganondorf being made as a successor to TotK Ganondorf, but i think this only expands on his story. We always knew that he was raised by Twinrova. Now we might now why

In The Wind Waker, Link has to fight Puppet Ganon, a puppet that represents him in OoT. I think it might also represent the fact he was raised as Twinrova's "puppet". Now, however, he was no longer bound by the strings of fate. He would do things on his own accord.

Well, this is what i think, at least. I commented about this weeks ago on another post, but i thought it would be fun to make a proper post to this theory :)

ie; Link being the main character instead of the Satellaview mascot, and being able to complete the game the same way as the original. Maybe I'm asking too much?

Yes, Ganon was not introduced in ALttP. He was the villain of the original game. But it was ALttP that introduced Ganondorf's backstory as the (presumably human) thief who invaded the Sacred Realm (which would later be used as the basis of OoT). The Dark World is a twisted version of the Sacred Realm born after Ganondorf was sealed with the Triforce

The Dark World changes the appearance of whoever enters it to match their heart, as stated in-game

"Oh? Who are you, Mr. Bunny? This world is like the real world, but evil has twisted it. The Golden Power is what changed your shape to reflect what is in your heart and mind. I am always changing my mind, so I turned into a ball"

So... was the original intention for Ganon to be a "curse" of sorts that transformed Ganondorf into a reflection of his heart? A pig, the symbol of greed

If that's the case, i really like this idea. Ganon kinda became a power-up of sorts that could be activated and deactivated at will in the later games (OoT, TP) and you didn't even needed the Triforce to transform, other things could do the trick (like the trident in FSA). I don't hate the power-up angle by any means, but there is a lot of appeal in Ganon as a cursed that came to be due to Ganondorf's own greed. Something he kinda has to deal with and learn to live like that instead of him being able to transform willingly

Let me preface with a few things: I've 100%ed the game so I've experienced all of the game's content, I overall had a fun time with the game and would give it a solid 6/10 for Zelda standards, and this is just a problem that I had and am curious if anyone else felt the same because I don't really see it brought up in other discussions.

All that being said, I've boiled nearly all my disappointments with the game down to the fact that this game is so. darn. braindead. easy.

Like, there are certainly a handful of moments where that call for some more brain power or dexterity than normal, but looking back on my time with the game, I went through the whole thing spamming the same 10 echoes to easily kill all enemies / maneuver around the world, I don't think I spent longer than 20 minutes in ANY of the dungeons, half the sidequests I would start and finish in a matter of seconds because it usually ended up being a case of whipping out a certain echo... I think I've gotten my point across. I feel like the ceiling of puzzle and combat creativity was some of the highest in the series due to the echo and bind systems, but the game barely capitalized on it. For most of the game, while I was entertained enough to keep playing, I really just felt like I was running on autopilot.

It's been a long time since I've played skyward sword, but after watching a few lore videos, I couldn't quite remember the reason why it's always wisdom zelda, link courage, ganon power. I know Demise cursed their spirit/soul whatever for an eternal cycle of hate, giving the rise to Ganondorf every time, but I don't remember WHY it's always the triforce of power.

Is it because wisdom always defaults to the blood of the goddess and courage is always seeking out the courageous spirit of the hero, and thus the reincarnation just by default always goes for power? Is there a lore reason why we'll never get, like, a ganondorf that has the wisdom portion or some silliness like that? He's just to greedy and power hungry just simply always attracts the triforce of power every single time?

This game makes almost everyone’s list as the greatest game ever made, including critically acclaimed companies.

I first picked this game up in 1999 on N64 when I was 4 years old. I still remember the iconic gold cartridge. It was played everyday by my brothers and I, as well as Goldeneye 007, Banjo Kazooie, Super Mario 64 and Mario Party 3.

As elite as those other games are in their own right, Ocarina of Time has created this invisible benchmark for games, which just seems to get further and further away to achieve as time passes. I find this ironic. The game had so many beautiful teachings and advice when it came to ‘time’, now it’s here in our world getting better and better over time.

Composer Koji Kondo had completely mastered the soundtrack/score for Ocarina of Time in EVERY single track.

I just wanted to emphasize how much of an impact this game has had on my life and will continue to do so for the rest of my days.

Thank you for pulling me out of my darkest days with each melody that was perfectly fitted for me to help acknowledge and understand the different emotions I was going through.

To the Greatest Game of all Time; you have saved me more times than I can count. Thank you, truly.

• A 28yr old single father still clinging onto the hope that the world will be as good as it used to be.

Don’t get me wrong, the others are great, but ALttP’s just looks, for me at least, like an actual legendary sword, no just something you’d see in Zelda but in real life. Kinda reminds me of the swords in Tolkien’s works.

In my previous post, I mentioned Soul Sacrifice to a comment, a game on the PSV that I played for hundreds of hours years ago. I later also bought Delta when it first released, and replying to that comment brought back memories of the game. Looking back, I realize that the story structure of BotW and TotK is actually quite similar to Soul Sacrifice, but Soul Sacrifice handled the 'uncover the myth and fight the final boss' narrative in a much better way. Here’s a comparison:

• Can you fight the final boss at any time?
  • Check. But in Soul Sacrifice, there are REAL different endings depending on whether you’ve completed the story or not.
• Is the main story about uncovering events from the past and getting stronger for the final fight?
  • Check. But in Soul Sacrifice, you actually experience those past events as the player. I really wish TotK had let us control Zelda in the past, which could have provided a more linear storyline section without conflicting with the overall open-world formula.
• Has someone fought the final boss for many years until the protagonist finishes it off?
  • Check. But there's a twist: >!Merlin (the final boss in the untranslated Japanese version) is both the hero and the villain, making him a fascinating and complex character—almost a combination of Ganondorf and Zelda (and even Link)!<. This complexity is deepened in the Delta arc, where the Merlin >!this time is likely the player from the previous arc!<, and your choice to either rescue or sacrifice him leads to different endings. While I’m not suggesting Zelda should go that dark route, I do wish the player played a more pivotal role in the story.

In TotK, for example, your first and >!last mission !<is to 'find Princess Zelda.' Instead of >!automatically achieving this once Ganondorf is defeated!<, why not hide the outcome behind a secret, requiring a specific method during the final battle that can only be uncovered by completing all story missions? Otherwise, the end cutscene could show Zelda still missing. The current final sequence, where >!the dive after Zelda turns back into a human!<, is exciting but lacks a reasonable explanation for how it happened. If Mr. Fujibayashi wants us to solve the mystery of finding Zelda, why not let the player figure out how to rescue her themselves?

There’s so much potential in the BotW/TotK story structure, but it feels like EPD3 squandered it, especially in TotK. I’m not sure if anyone on the team has played Soul Sacrifice, but I really hope they do and see how that game implemented this type of narrative structure more effectively.

Just both beat the final boss and 100% completed EoW this morning, and wanted to write my thoughts (and vent a little).

+ Overall I enjoyed the game. The Echoes were fun to use, and I enjoyed the direction of the dungeons (though they could be even more challenging yet). The characters and locations were fun, exploring the map was great.

+ Loved the abundance of side scrolling sections.

- The soundtrack did not do anything for me, especially compared to ALBW and the LA Remake. There were maybe two songs that stuck out, Eternal Forest and Snow Cave (which is more ambience than anything) but the rest was forgettable.

And the thing I want to vent about:

- Really really disappointed at the final section of the game. I was shocked they didn't let you play as Link. You spend the entire game levelling up your sword, bombs & arrows only to not be able to use it at the end. SUCH a missed opportunity for a fun final dungeon (of which there wasn't) and final boss where you can toggle between controlling Link & Zelda. So the final boss fight is super boring since you just stand there and spawn echoes.

Also the Deku Tree seemed like an afterthought thrown in there at the end ?

Again I had a fun time with the game, but doesn't leave me daydreaming about it. Happy to complete it move on.

This is a theory made solely with the Animation Magic games (Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon) in mind. Zelda's Adventure was made by different people and has a totally different feeling, so i consider it its own part of the larger Zelda universe, separate from those two

Well, i believe that the order those two games take place in is The Wand of Gamelon -> The Faces of Evil

At the end of The Wand of Gamelon, when Ganon is being defeated, he says the following: "The chains! No! You haven't seen the last of me!"

And when you defeat Ganon in The Faces of Evil, Gwonam says: "Well done, Link! Ganon is once again imprisoned."

Together, those two dialogues imply a WoG > FoE order, with Ganon escaping and wrecking havok in Koridai before being defeated for good

Another piece of evidence is Gwonam's prophecy in FoE, which claims that only Link can defeat Ganon. That's possibly why he returned after WoG, as Zelda was the protagonist of that game, and why his defeat in FoE was definitive

As a classically trained pianist, one downside is that I tend to pick up on every note and voice when listening to music, even if I don’t want to. This often diminishes the emotional impact, even for music that’s meant to evoke nostalgia. That said, the TotK soundtrack is surprisingly good. The Switch, being a relatively weak console, blurs a lot of details—though it still has the best sound design on the platform—but we generally don't notice the music during gameplay unless the scenario is easy and the music is prominent. However, after listening to the official soundtrack, I realized how groundbreaking the TotK OST is for the series.

With even basic music knowledge and composition experience, it’s clear how much harder it is to compose using unique instruments and irregular rhythms/tempos than traditional orchestration. In BotW, they only explored certain aspects and chords that didn’t appear in earlier games. But TotK is filled with folk instruments, custom-designed sounds, and irregular rhythms—even the percussion is more intricate, even when it sticks to regular rhythms. I imagine rehearsals were a challenge! In my view, Colgera’s theme is on par with Queen Gibdo’s (both are fantastic), but the best tracks are all Ganondorf-related, especially Gloom’s Approach (that smooth build-up and transition in such relatively complex piece!) and the first-phase Ganondorf fight (amazing percussion and Shamisen work). Overall, the music engineering is also a significant step forward from BotW. This finally feels like a soundtrack from the 21st century, comparable to some modern classical pieces in terms of orchestration and complexity.

Well done to the composers! I'm looking forward for the future OSTs.

Idk how other people feel about this, but after replaying both botw ad totk recently I really dislike how busy the deigns can get for some of the better weapons in these games. All of the "normal" looking weapons are the lower level ones, like traveler's, soldier's, and knight's weapons. I really like the simple designs for these, as they go really well with basically any "normal" clothes.

But once I get further in the game, most of my inventory ends up being filled with royal and lynel weapons. On one hand, I think the designs look cool in a vacuum. The royal stuff looks very ornate and expensive, and the lynel gear looks like it was made to be as painful as possible. But at the same time, they're so large and bulky that I think they end up looking pretty ridiculous. (The hylian shield and master sword are exceptions, but they're pre-existing iconic designs so it makes sense.)

Its even worse in totk with the fuse system. monster horns start out looking like simple blades or hammer heads, but once you get to the higher level enemies they all just look outlandishly huge and impractical (some of them are so huge that the fused horn actually has to shrink down when you sheathe your weapon, and it often still clips through the ground anyway). The only exception I can think of is the silver lynel saber horn, which has a very sleek design that I really appreciate. But the rest just look kind of stupid in my opinion. And don't even get me started on how dumb most fused shields look.

Idk, I just really like the simple aesthetic of early game gear. One of my favorite parts of a new playthrough is just being able to use the better looking gear again. I adore all of the wooden shields (wooden, hunter's, fisherman's, emblazoned), the shield of mind's eye, the wooden bow, and the rest of the simpler looking gear.

Just beat the game.

I give it a 7.9/10.

I hate the smoothie system.

I found the echoes-based combat to be unengaging most of the time and very clunky.

The dungeons are way too simple and easy.

The final section and boss were underwhelming.

Exploration outside of the dungeon and still world levels was fun, but the rewards were only worth it half the time.

Bosses were mostly fun. I hate the fish boss.

I didn't see the point in buying anything from shops besides the occasional red/blue potion, but the smoothie system made that pointless after a while.

Overall I found the game to be very so, so. What are your thoughts?

This post is detailing my predictions (as someone not affiliated with Nintendo, just a fan who loves Zelda) on what is next in store for the Zelda franchise on the Switch 2. This post is quite long, so I'll keep this introduction brief and say that there are minor Echoes of Wisdom spoilers regarding when the rifts began appearing, but most of what I detail is a hypothetical concept for a prequel to Echoes of Wisdom further explaining where the rifts came from. I just put Gerudo Sanctum in the title to be safe.

With the intro out of the way, here are my year-by-year predictions on what the next generation of Zelda could look like, including the later years of Switch 1, most of Switch 2, and the Zelda movie:

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2025

Switch: The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD (Tantalus)

Switch 2: Cross-Gen Upscale Program

As Nintendo is ramping up for the Switch 2 to replace the Switch 1, they will continue to release more and more remakes to fill out the release schedule for Switch 1 until it gets discontinued in 2027, 2 years after its successor’s launch just like the 3DS. While some may be expecting Nintendo to release Wind Waker and Twilight Princess simultaneously in one package, they will instead drip-feed us both games and sell them individually as they see each one as its own full product. Twilight Princess will release for Switch 1 early in 2026 before the big 40^(th) anniversary direct in February.

The first year of Switch 2 will be fairly uneventful for the Zelda franchise. Since both a major 3D and 2D title just released within the past 2 years, the only thing Nintendo will have on offer is the start of the Cross-Gen Upscale Program, which will include Breath of the Wild upon launch and will slowly introduce more and more Switch games as time goes on. Nintendo Switch Online + Expansion Pack members will receive these upscales for free, while non-members will have to pay $10.00US for each individual game to be upscaled.

____________________________________________________________________________________

2026 (40th Anniversary)

Switch: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess HD (Tantalus)

Switch 2: Hyrule Warriors: Time Under Siege (Koei Tecmo)

Multi-Media: The Legend of Zelda: A Hero’s Beginnings Movie (Ocarina of Time Part 1: Child Link)

With Twilight Princess out of the way, the anniversary direct will feature some big announcements for the next generation of Zelda. First off will be the third entry in the Hyrule Warriors franchise, Time Under Siege, continuing the trend of having a new entry every six years since its initial release in 2014. The story will focus on the Downfall timeline split, starting with the death of this incarnation of Link forcing Zelda to pick up the pieces along with the other 6 sages in defeating both Ganon and the conniving Twinrova. To the disappointment of some, this is the Ocarina of Time related project Aonuma has been teasing recently, and there is no FF7-style Ocarina of Time remake in the works.

The long-awaited Zelda movie will get its first trailer in this direct. It will be an adaptation of Ocarina of Time’s story, and all of the marketing will focus on the Child Link portion of the story barring a couple monologues by Ganondorf implying Link has grown up. When it releases in theaters, general audiences will be blown away by the ending, as the movie ends with a pan over the destroyed Hyrule 7 years in the future with Ganondorf sitting on the throne of Hyrule Castle, providing an Infinity War-style ending where the villain outsmarts the hero and ultimately wins. Fans will unfortunately have to wait 3-4 years to see the conclusion to this story.

The direct will end with a teaser for the next open-air Zelda game, although it will just be a concept art image with a blurb that says the next open-air Zelda is now in development for Switch 2. It will eventually get its first trailer in late 2027 with the promise of a 2028 release, but will be delayed to 2029.

____________________________________________________________________________________

2027

Switch: The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds HD + Triforce Heroes (Shiver Entertainment, recently acquired in 2024)

Switch 2: The Legend of Xenoblade (Working Title) (The Legend of Zelda x Xenoblade by Monolith Soft)

Ending the slew of remakes in the Switch 1’s final years would be a dual pack release for A Link Between Worlds and Triforce Heroes, similar to how the original Four Swords was packed into a remake of A Link to the Past all the way back on the GBA. Nintendo will justify this as a dual pack and not WW/TP because they won’t see Triforce Heroes as its own full game, and it will be advertised as a side mode for A Link Between Worlds.

Definitely my most curve ball pick is a crossover game between Zelda and Xenoblade, but there is actually a bit of evidence to support this idea. Monolith Soft is no stranger to having characters from other franchises cameo in their own games, as a couple characters from Square Enix cameoed in Xenogears, and several of their games in the past have dealt with the concept of the Multiple Worlds Theory, so it wouldn’t be impossible for a game to be made with a world that contains elements from both Zelda and Xenoblade.

Plus, there was some concept art of a new IP released by Monolith in 2017 that had some Zelda-like imagery taking place in a medieval setting, and there have been comments by the director of Xenoblade recently stating that a “New RPG” is in the works facing unique challenges that the company has never faced before, both of which I have linked below. This is definitely my wildcard pick for this list, but it would be a dream come true if it came to fruition.

New Monolith IP Concept Art:

https://latam.ign.com/company/41278/gallery/new-monolith-soft-game-concept-art?p=2

Xenoblade Director’s Comments on Seemingly New IP:

https://metro.co.uk/2024/08/05/xenoblade-chronicles-dev-confirms-new-rpg-studio-takes-new-challenges-21361706/?ico=more_text_links#:~:text=In%20a%20message%20on%20the%20studio%E2%80%99s%20website%2C%20Monolith,many%20new%20challenges%E2%80%99%20compared%20to%20its%20previous%20titles.

____________________________________________________________________________________

2028

*ECHOES OF WISDOM SPOILERS IN THIS SECTION*

Switch 2: The Legend of Zelda: Shades of Power (2D Echoes of Wisdom prequel by Grezzo)

After the release of Echoes of Wisdom and the extra freedom they had during development, Grezzo will likely want to immediately jump onto making the next new 2D Zelda game rather than make a remake of a pre-existing Zelda game. Since they already know they’re creating a new game and likely won’t toy with the idea of a level editor again yet, it makes sense that this game would only take 4 years to develop rather than the 5 that Echoes of Wisdom took.

The story is centered around Zelda’s new companion, Forca, Tri's sister who has the ability to transform Zelda into various monsters she encounters along her journey with their powers to manipulate life force. They end up going on the run with Zelda after a set of young twin witches calling themselves Twinrova catch wind of their power through a magical accident involving a rift that led both of them to permanently lose their clairvoyant abilities. It is then up to Zelda to use her new Shades of Power that Forca grants her to stop them. This leads to them going on an adventure further exploring many aspects of lore established in previous games, including why only one male Gerudo is born every century, how Twinrova came to be so obsessed with attaining power, and why the rifts were never previously mentioned in any other Zelda games, despite being present for centuries in Echoes of Wisdom.

____________________________________________________________________________________

2029

Switch 2: The Legend of Zelda: Epoch of Steam (Next Open-Air 3D title by Main Zelda Team)

After over 6 years of waiting in the new longest span between 3D games, Epoch of Steam will finally release in mid 2029. This adventure will take place a few centuries after the events of Spirit Tracks in the Adult timeline, in an era where New Hyrule is at its most advanced yet, having made use of steampunk-style technology to make their lives more convenient. However, this technology has upset the balance that the citizens of New Hyrule have with nature, and the game’s story will explore the consequences of the use of this technology, as well as flesh out the lives of the NPCs with the introduction of a 7-day time-loop, enforced by the main antagonist of the game. While the world will be slightly smaller than the one seen in Breath of the Wild, it will feel much more alive thanks to time sensitive quests spanning across different towns and cities that must be completed with the help of Hyrule’s train system, which has many NPCs travelling between settlements over the course of the 7-day time cycle, and various businesses being open only on specific days of the week, applying the multiplicative gameplay philosophy to even the NPCs!

____________________________________________________________________________________

2030

Multi Media: The Legend of Zelda: Hero of Time Movie (Ocarina of Time Part 2: Adult Link)

The epic conclusion to the Zelda film duology will begin with the scene of Twinrova capturing Nabooru in the past, showing that even those who are closest to Ganondorf don’t stand a chance against his tyranny. The story will then play out mostly the same as it does in the game, as Link must undergo 4 trials set up by Ganondorf and meet up with the 5 remaining sages after Rauru gives the Master Sword the first of six blessings (changed from the Sage Medallions for the sake of being easier to understand for general audiences.)

Cutting out the Shadow Temple portion by having Link run into Impa in Kakariko on his way to Death Mountain, who warns Link of the Hyrule family’s bloody past before giving him her own blessing, Link must undergo the following 4 trials:

1.      Go to the Fire Temple and calm Volvagia, Darunia’s former pet that he met as a child to prove his loyalty by not killing his old friend.

2.      Face his childhood by going to the Forest Temple and defeating Phantom Ganon, saving Saria and learning that he isn’t actually a Kokiri, gaining wisdom by acknowledging his true heritage.

3.      Reflect on the information he was just given in the Water Temple and confronting his fears head-on by fighting Dark Link, who replaces Morpha as the “boss” of the dungeon to prove he has the courage of a hero.

4.      Proving he has the true spirit of a hero by confronting Twinrova in the Spirit Temple, and learning more about Ganondorf’s past, acknowledging that the Gerudo were dealt a pretty bad hand by the Royal Family.

This would all culminate in the finale, which plays out practically the same as it does in the base game, ending with Zelda sending Link back in time to live out his childhood days in peace, knowing that Ganondorf will be sealed away before he can do any harm to Hyrule.

____________________________________________________________________________________

2031 (45th Anniversary)

Switch 2: The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons + Ages Remake (Grezzo)

With the engine already in place thanks to Shades of Power’s release three years prior, Grezzo will be able to make a quick turnaround in remaking these two Game Boy Color classics. Like with A Link Between Worlds and Triforce Heroes, Nintendo will see these games as inextricably connected, and will release them as one package rather than as separate products, and codes between games will now be shared by one user rather than needing an entire second system/game to input them. Ironically, this would be the fourth major product to release this generation to feature Twinrova, this time showing how they developed in the timeline several centuries after the hero was defeated by Ganon. This would also be Grezzo’s last game of the generation, as they will want to focus game development on the Switch 2’s successor, meaning they will not opt to revitalize the concept of the scrapped third Oracle game.

____________________________________________________________________________________

2032

Switch 2: The Legend of Xenoblade 2 (Working Title) (Legend of Zelda x Xenoblade sequel by Monolith Soft)

The sequel to the crossover between Zelda and Xenoblade will release five years after its predecessor, having a similar turnaround to the wait between Xenoblade 2 and 3. Speaking of Xenoblade, the big question some may have with my reasoning of there being two spinoff games releasing this generation might be when Xenoblade 4 would release. I think with how the director of Xenoblade has been talking about the “new RPG” that they have in the works, they will want to focus on that new franchise at the start of the Switch 2 generation, as they have experimented with different IP in the past in their shifts from Xenogears to Xenosaga to Xenoblade in the 2000s. Xenoblade won’t be gone forever, and they will keep the franchise alive by releasing a Definitive Edition of Xenoblade Chronicles X and possibly a Xenoblade Warriors game after Time Under Siege comes out. Under these circumstances, Xenoblade 4 will become the Metroid Prime 4 of the Switch 2 generation, being hyped up for years until it finally arrives around 2034, over a decade after the release of Xenoblade 3.

____________________________________________________________________________________

2033

No Major Releases

After an eventful 7 years, Nintendo will finally be out of major releases for Zelda games on Switch 2, and will be focusing on making games for the Switch 2’s successor. Grezzo will be aiming to release another new game within the first two years of the system, and the fourth open-air Zelda will likely coincide with the 50^(th) anniversary of the Zelda franchise, 7 years after the release of Epoch of Steam in 2036.

____________________________________________________________________________________

That's it for my predictions. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on how accurate you think they might be!

Note: this post is more about the series as a whole than anything particular to EoW, but does discuss the fact that >!it has "traditional" dungeons!<.

______

After I finished Echoes of Wisdom, I started playing Breath of the Wild again with my kid, and got thinking about the Great Plateau. What is it? From a game design perspective I mean.

It's not a dungeon. It's not enclosed. But it does have a very strong and intentionally-designed structure. Here are some elements of that structure:

• A wide, bounded area with a central hub
• Four (or five) "spoke" objectives that can be completed in any order
• Sequential scripting that activates as you complete objectives, regardless of order

That scripting on the Plateau is the behavior of the Old Man. He always appears outside a shrine you finish, and he gradually reveals the game's backstory and setup, culminating in the big revelation at the Temple of Time.

The Great Plateau is not the only place that has this structure. It's the same structure as every so-called "dungeon" in both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, the divine beasts, the temples, and the construct factory. In those areas, the consecutive scripting is simpler text-wise ("just three more terminals to go, Link!") but takes on another important form: the music, which morphs dynamically to become more and more dramatic as you activate the terminals.

But this structure isn't limited to dungeons. You see it again on Eventide Island. And in Tears of the Kingdom, you see it in at least three places: the Great Sky Island, and once again on both the Great Plateau and Eventide Island. A bounded place, three to five objectives, and scripting as you complete them in any order.

I'm trying to think of examples of this level design structure from earlier games, and the only one that comes to mind is the Gerudo Fortress in Ocarina of Time, where you can free the carpenters in any order. Although the scripting—which I think is a pretty important element of this design—there is quite minimal, if it exists at all.

Obviously this structure is not a "traditional dungeon," but perhaps it is useful to think of it as a level? And what other kinds of level designs are there in Zelda games?

"Traditional Dungeon" Level Design

So-called "traditional dungeons" return in Echoes of Wisdom, which have a very familiar structure:

• An enclosed area segmented by rooms
• Locks that must be opened in order with explicit keys, switches, or items that function as keys
• A big key that unlocks the final door and boss

The dungeons in Zelda 1—which were called "levels" in the game—had a kind of embryonic version of this structure. A Link to the Past really formalized it (nearly, its big keys worked a little different), and this structure served as pretty much the only game in town up through Skyward Sword. It feels very different from a Plateau-style level. Even dungeons that superficially resemble the Plateau with "four spokes," like the Forest Temple with its four colored poes in Ocarina of Time, are still structured as linear lock-and-key progressions—the spokes are really just more keys in a sequence.

While the progression structure is quite different, sometimes there is something like what I've described as "sequential scripting." One cool example that comes to mind is Blind in LttP's Dark World Kakariko dungeon. Another example is Stone Tower Temple in Majora's Mask, where progression changes the whole dungeon's structure and its music shifts to become more eerie.

Other Zelda Level Designs

Tears of the Kingdom has several structured experiences that don't fit into the mold of either "traditional dungeon" or "Great Plateau-like level." They are:

• The ascent up the Rising Island Chain
• Going through the Lanayru Ancient Waterworks
• Descending into the Forgotten Foundation

All three areas are highly linear gauntlets with strong boundaries and few branching paths. In terms of gameplay structures, they remind me of the path to Zora's Domain in Breath of the Wild, with the rainy cliffs serving as boundaries. The linear overworld regions of Skyward Sword also sort of fit the bill, and Thunderhead Isles in Tears of the Kingdom is also loosely similar.

But these three areas really stand out for their music. Not only do they have their own "level music," the music has dynamic progression, just like the divine beasts, temples, and construct factory. As you get higher, further, or lower, the music changes, builds and becomes more dramatic. In previous Zelda games, you do see this kind of "building music" progression but (I believe) only in the final dungeons of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, as you ascend up the stairs to fight Ganon. And possibly also the last level in Link Between Worlds.

And then there is Hyrule Castle in the new games. In BotW, it's a mountain that you scale with a single objective. In TotK, it's a wild goose chase with a string of objectives. The physical structure of the castle creates natural boundaries as you progress, but (unlike traditional dungeons) these boundaries can be circumvented in countless ways. The castle's music is also unique. It doesn't build up progressively like the beasts, temples, and linear gauntlets above. But it is unusually dynamic—each version of the castle has two musical tracks that seamlessly switch into one another. In BotW, the switch happens if you enter or exit the castle interior. In TotK, the music switches when you get into combat.

Finally, there's the menagerie of "little levels" introduced in the new games. Shrines are the most obvious—self-contained puzzle rooms, often classed as "mini-dungeons" (although they serve other purposes as well). The three labyrinths are hard to classify but feel quite level-like—they're not really puzzle rooms, but they're not really part of the overworld either. Tears of the Kingdom introduces several other kinds of little levels: caves, which are surprisingly diverse in their structures despite always "ending" with a bubblefrog, and sky island crystal puzzles, where an archipelago serves as a setting and boundary for hauling a shrine crystal from one place to another. However, you could argue that none of these things really rises to the level of a "level" (ha)—they're perhaps more like "rooms."

The Importance of Diverse Level Design

A big part of what made the Great Plateau feel so magical when BotW came out was its novelty. It was a game design structure we had not seen in the series, either in its scale or its progression structure.

The lack of novelty—the transparent re-use of this structure for all the divine beasts and all the TotK temples—also helps explain the negative reaction to aspects of the new games. There's a sense of seeing the wizard behind the curtain. "Oh, those water jugs are just divine beast terminals again."

That said, the same could be said about traditional dungeons. I loved Echoes of Wisdom, but I was disappointed with the dungeons. After playing Zelda levels with this exact structure for 30+ years, they felt rote and pretty boring. "Oh, there's the switch to unlock this door, there's the boss key."

I also think Tears of the Kingdom is underappreciated for its diverse level design, in particular how it explores linear level designs with its caves and the three "escalating" areas I mentioned earlier.

In the end, for all Zelda fans talk about "dungeons," they are just a kind of level, and a level is just a kind of cohesive experience in a videogame, bounded to a place. Here's hoping the next game continues to experiment with new kinds of level design.

I have major thalassophobia/ submechanophobia, and to me Great Bay Temple is the stuff of nightmares. In the center of the temple is this giant turbine with tunnels beneath it that suck you into them. There's creepy sea creatures on the way, but at the very end of it all is a terrifying sea monster that you have to fight underwater. I think the janky animations of the N64 version look a lot creepier. IMO they made Gyorg look too cartoonish and expressive in the 3DS version. I also don't like that they brightened the battlefield, as it ruins the atmosphere of the fight.

I love Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time, but i think that he really shines the most in both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. In their own way, each one developed the character under different circunstances, with rather different results. It makes for a fascinating character study on how different actions can put your life on very different paths

Ganondorf in Wind Waker has experienced the bitter taste of defeat and spent centuries learning from his mistakes. He became a pragmatic mastermind who only got out of control at the last moment, when he knew there was no chance for him to win

Ganondorf in Twilight Princess, on the other hand, not only was never defeated by the Hero of Time, but he also managed to escape execution and get a piece of the Triforce by what he thought was pure luck. He developed even more of an ego than he had in OoT. No longer satisfied with the idea of being a king, he wanted to be a god and fell due to his carelessness

Truly, he is the villain with a thousand faces

Hypothesis: Lorulean Loftwing equivalents lack feet.

Evidence: the Hyrulean Royal Crest features a Loftwing with feet, but the Lorulean Royal Crest features a Loftwing equivalent without feet.

Counterevidence: the Hyrulean Goddess Crest, the symbol of Hylia that likely predates the symbol of the Loftwing, does not have feet, so the Lorulean Royal Crest could have simply adapted the symbol of Lorule's Hylia equivalent directly and never added the feet from its Loftwing equivalent. Lorule might not even have Loftwing equivalents.

People have discussed this over on Zelda Universe. They speculated Lorule's Loftwing equivalents are more like bats, but even bats have feet.

Discuss!

I cannot find a single clear timeline that's up to date with Echoes let alone BoTW and it's frustrating. I wanna info dump about Zelda to my wife but I can't without an outline of a history in front of me to learn!

Can someone help

Playing SoH version for the first time and, by using Rabbit mask buffs and Longer normal hook, i've managed to reach a state in which the only two chests missing were longshot one and the small key at the end of the cave past longshot chest. So since i needed that key to get that key, i really really definitely managed to get stuck. The only alternative I found was to enable "hook everything" cheat and then access the key from Water serpent room.

This got me wondering, what if people used obscure ways to get and use keys in an unnatural order and gave birth to this mith for not telling all the truth? Anyway, here's the report ages late.

BONUS: since I killed the boss prior to reaching shadow link, i've managed to reach him with fire arrows in hands, to discover its heuristic sticks when you aim fire arrows, making him croush and shield static, leaving room for you to get around and back shoot him.

I think people are worrying too much about >!the whole "Prime Energy" thing. It's not like this is the first time the Triforce gets a new name. Golden Power, Power of the Gods, Ultimate Power, i feel like people are worrying too much about this, to be honest!<

Yesterday I beat Echoes of Wisdom, my latest journey through the Zelda series. My mild expectations met with an experience increasingly engaging. I never had any nostalgia about Zelda, since I was introduced to the franchise as recently as 2021 with BotW, and then I beat every single 3D Zelda game and a few topdown Zelda titles, my favorite of which was The Minish Cap.

And I dare to say that, even though I have no nostalgic feelings about Zelda, if there is any game which I could see transporting me to those classic Zelda's golden days, it's called Echoes of Wisdom without a shadow of doubt.

Needless to say, I like EoW a lot better than TotK. To me, EoW is a resolute game that knows quite well what it wants, not divided between being a technical marvel or being a new Zelda game. What is more, it knew how to take advantage of linearity as a distinctive trait in the franchise while at the same time didn't discard the broad freedom which defines the new design philosophy. It's not without its own issues but I believe this is - finally - the step needed toward a balance between the current and the classic formula.

Without spoiling anything (I haven't started Echoes of Wisdom yet, but I am going to play it soon), why doesn't Zelda just pick up a sword from somewhere? I mean, there's a form that gives her a sword, so obviously she knows how to use a sword. So why doesn't she carry a sword around?

She lives in Hyrule Castle, no? There's gotta be tons of spare weapons lying around for the guards. Or does Hyrule Castle just not have a barracks?

Couldn't she defeat a Moblin, and then steal its sword while it's knocked out? I mean, that's a thing you can do in Breath and Tears. Why not this game?

I'm well aware of the gameplay reason (the devs didn't want Zelda to be a carbon copy of Link), but from a strictly in-universe standpoint, I don't understand why Zelda wouldn't grab something to defend herself with.

Again, please don't spoil anything. If the game gives out an in-universe explanation, you can just say the game explains it.

Of all the timeline revelations in HH, the most polarising was the concept of the DT, a third branch from OoT. While the CT and AT are strongly supported by the ending of OoT, the DT cannot be gleaned as a potential ending by playing the game. It also opens up the rest of the series to a can of annoying 'what-if' worms.

The DT substantially altered Zelda discourse. It also encouraged fans to interrogate why such a split was necessary rather than---and this seemed to be the general consensus before the release of HH---putting ALttP and the games that follow it on the CT after TP.

Nintendo's reasons, simply put, are as follows:

• The HH timeline was formulated with priority given to developer quotes/interviews ("hunting through stacks of ancient documents" https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/29/3890158/nintendo-legend-of-zelda-history-book), over in-game evidence.
• OoT, based on developer quotes, was developed as a prequel to ALttP, intending to depict the events of the Imprisoning War (IW). However, the developers played extremely fast and loose with the stated details of the IW. The finished product of OoT resembles, but does not line up with the backstory of ALttP.
• Nintendo releases MM, TWW, and TP, and issues statements to clarify their positions on the timeline. TWW follow OoT on the AT, while MM and TP follow OoT on the CT.
• OoT now appears to have three distant sequels, TWW, TP, and ALttP.

Nintendo's quandary when formulating the timeline for HH was where to place ALttP (and all the games to follow it). ALttP cannot go after TWW or TP without severing the connection with OoT stated by the developers. Based on the events of either game, there is also no room to place ALttP between before them on either timeline. As a result, many fans argue that the release of either one or both of TWW and TP necessitated a new timeline where Link is defeated.

This is evidently not the case. The reason was that while the developers set out to release OoT as a prequel to ALttP, OoT's ending in both the child and adult timelines do not line up with the events of ALttP anyway. In 1998 when OoT released, the DT was already necessary to 'correct' the events of OoT so that they lead into ALttP.

To prove this, let's examine the ending of OoT on the AT, to see how ALttP's backstory does not line up:

• In ALttP it was "completely by chance/accident" that Ganondorf's band of thieves found the Triforce. In the AT, Ganondorf manipulated Link and Zelda to obtain it, already aware of its whereabouts.
• In ALttP Ganondorf slew his followers to take the (whole) Triforce for himself. In OoT/the AT, there is no mention of him killing his followers, and the Triforce split into three because his heart was not in balance. He then set out to retake the other two pieces from Link and Zelda.
• The ALttP manual describes him first as a man who was then "born" as the King of Evil Ganon. Based on what we know about the Dark World in ALttP, it is inferred that Ganondorf transformed into a beast here. On the AT, Ganondorf only ever transformed into a beast briefly for his final battle with Link, using just the Triforce of Power rather than the whole Triforce.
• This is the part in ALttP where Ganon wished upon the Triforce, causing his evil to spread through Hyrule. Greedy people were consumed by his power and disappeared, black clouds covered the sky, and other sinister events occurred. In the AT, this broadly occurred during the seven years Link was asleep, but the inciting event of Ganondorf's wish never happened.
• In ALttP there was no time for the sages to find a hero to wield the Master Sword. Without the Hero, the Knights of Hyrule battled Ganon to give the Sages time to cast a Seal on Ganon. This is blatantly contradicted by the AT, where Link and the Master Sword were defining parts of the conflict.
• In ALttP beast Ganon was sealed into the Dark World with the whole Triforce. In the AT he was only sealed with the Triforce of Power, and as a Gerudo. The Triforce of Wisdom is with Zelda and the royal family, while the exact whereabouts of the Triforce of Courage is unknown after Zelda sends Link back in time. This key event cannot be chalked up to historical innacuracy and is the biggest reason ALttP cannot follow OoT on the AT.

So even before the release of TWW, OoT (AT) -> ALttP did not make sense.

However, it certainly made more sense than positioning ALttP on the CT. In the CT, Link travels back in time and prevents Ganondorf from touching the Triforce. As such, the events that resemble the IW do not even happen.

For ALttP to follow OoT on the CT, the events described in the ALttP backstory essentially have to occur again, which does not seem likely. How will this Ganondorf obtain the Triforce behind the numerous safeguards in the Temple of Time when Link has now warned Zelda and the royal family? Further:

• Again, in ALttP it was "completely by chance/accident" that Ganondorf's band of thieves found the Triforce. In the beginning of OoT, Ganondorf was already scheming to obtain the Triforce. He cursed the Deku Tree when he was unable to obtain the Spiritual Stone, suggesting he was already aware of its whereabouts. And if he does indeed go on to obtain the Triforce by chance/accident in the CT, this goes against a lot of what we know of the Triforce's protections in OoT.
• As Ganondorf's heart was not in balance when he touched the Triforce in the AT, it is highly unlikely that this incarnation would have been able to claim the Triforce in the same way as ALttP.

To put ALttP on the CT is therefore unsupported conjecture. It goes against the quotes made by the developers that they were "dealing with the Imprisoning War" of ALttP's backstory by removing much of what resembled it. There is no point in putting ALttP on the CT.

Keeping all of this in mind, the releases of TWW and TP are something of a red herring, with respect to how they affected the timeline placement of ALttP. This is because, despite it being the developers' intention, they failed to write a story in OoT that led correctly into ALttP in either the AT or CT.

The only way to rectify OoT's ending is in fact to create a third timeline where Link is defeated, and contextualise the events of OoT as only the beginning of the IW. For many reasons, this is an extremely flawed solution due to some details still not lining up, and to interject with my opinion, I detest the DT. But it does get OoT's ending to a place where ALttP's backstory could happen if you squint, and it is the solution Nintendo landed on.

So, BlueBarossa, where would you put ALttP?

That's easy. The reason for all the aforementioned nonsense is the insistence on positioning ALttP as a sequel to OoT. If you decide that the ALttP's backstory is separate and not shown in any other game, with Ganon being a new incarnation, you immediately eliminate a lot of this complexity. Remember that with the release of FSA, it's canon that Ganondorf can and does reincarnate. This removes the necessity for a third timeline, as long as we can place it on one of the existing two.

If we're opening this up to other timeline theories, where in-game evidence is prioritised over developer quotes, I would scrap the DT and place ALttP on the CT, in an era following TP.

After TP, (1) Ganondorf died and (2) the Master Sword was returned to a pedestal in the woods. After Ganon’s defeat, Zelda was (3) likely able to regroup the Triforce and seal it away in the Sacred Realm, which was where it was to start with in OoT. These three key variables can set up for ALttP's backstory without outright contradiction.

For a closer look, let’s re-examine the facts of the Imprisoning War and compare them with what we can extrapolate from the ending of TP.

• Ganondorf is born again as a leader of a band of thieves. He is not necessarily the King of the Gerudo anymore. I think this makes sense, given Ganondorf I was evil---and so this Ganondorf only leads a faction of the Gerudo.
• Ganondorf accidentally finds the Sacred Realm and claims the Triforce at once. Again, since this is a different Ganon, it is entirely possible that he could do so; we don’t know that his heart was not in balance.
• The sages attempted to find a true hero to wield the Master Sword. Given its location at the end of TP they may possibly have been unable to find it.

TLDR: Because the ending of OoT on the AT and CT both cannot lead into ALttP, the DT was already necessary when OoT released in 1998, if they were intending to uphold OoT as a prequel to that game. Ignoring that intention, putting ALttP on the CT sometime after TP is sensible, with the IW being a separate event.

The one thing that draws me back to the Zelda series time and time again is the music and the way it is handled. For me, no other games can perfectly capture a mood in a tune, masterfully incorporate past games' themes, or pay off on the motifs within each individual game. These traits, especially the latter, usually manifest best in the end as the credits roll (or more likely fade in and out). I thought it'd be fun to walk through some of the staff rolls over the years and discuss what may or may not make a satisfying conclusion.

I wonder, too, what everyone's favorite and/or least favorite credits theme is. If you do read it all, perhaps listen to all of the themes as you read along.

The Legend of Zelda: A lot of times when people talk about the original, the only good things they can come up with to talk about it is that it's influential or it holds up very well for an NES game. While both are true, I also think specific strengths exist and I like to hear them sometimes. One such strength is this theme, that not only holds up well against many of the later staff rolls, but stands strong against them. While it may not be as grandiose or emotional as some others that follow, I'm a sucker for it. It obviously builds off of a song that you will probably hear a lot, adding a twist that still excites me every time I finish the game. The game-over theme isn't very complex. Its evenly spaced notes and catchy melody allow for a lot of expansion. And expand they do! A bass channel comes in, bouncing along with the melody and preparing you for the transition. It seamlessly switches to a new melody and if you couldn't notice before, you will now almost certainly see that the song is now very reminiscent of ragtime. In fact, it has even caught the attention of a renowned ragtime pianist named Tom Brier. If you haven't seen it, I encourage you to do so. https://youtu.be/vhRBGCS8mlc The theme repeats until the credits are over and it gives a fitting send-off for the first adventure. As there were already two variations of the then-new main theme in this five-song soundtrack (excluding the ending), I understand why Koji Kondo chose to reprise this one for the credits. Besides, I always found it clever that on one side of the coin is a reflective game-over theme and on the other, a triumphant, celebratory dance that the game.. is over.

The Adventure of Link: This game's ending theme emanates a much more-for lack of a better word- fantasy-like feeling. This is consistent with the game. The original felt more like a blank slate for you to project your adventure on; while there was a backstory and objective, they felt tertiary to the exploration and gameplay. You might still say that applies to most Zelda games. However, the story seemed a bit more in focus, being a sequel and all. Ganon seems more like an imminent threat (even though he's dead), there are towns with various speaking npcs, and just more structure overall for what is going on at any time. Because of this, fantasy elements seem to be easier to specifically pinpoint compared to the original, or even following games. One oft-cited example for this are the various spells Link can learn. You may also argue that the fact that it's a side-scroller allows for more details, thus creating a deeper atmosphere. But I think the music plays a huge role in building this high fantasy world. With a town theme, a battle theme, and even a theme that plays inside houses, there is a clear difference in how the world is presented. The land is expansive and there are actually people to save! The dungeon themes are a good way to express what I think specifically relating to fantasy though because it's more of a feeling and if you're not sure what I mean, that's alright. The LOZ dungeon theme is an eerie, mazelike melody that makes you feel just as lost as Link is in them. This may be fantasy-esque for some people, but as I said earlier, the open-endedness of the 8-bit labyrinths can also allow for any interpretation and for me, AoL's dungeons just feel more like that stereotypical "knights and castles'' fantasy. LOZ also feels like fantasy but I'm not sure if there's a word to differentiate this thin genre line I'm thinking about. It's kind of like LOZ is implied to be fantasy with its opening and concept art but you won't mistake AoL as anything but fantasy. Anyways, that was a tangent and my point is that LOZ's dungeons sound and play like an intricate labyrinth and AOL's sound and play like a knight fighting his way through a dangerous dungeon of a palace. I'm not breaking any ground or anything: I think this is what was intended. I'm sorry if I'm just making surface-level observations here, I'm just trying to express myself. This "fantasy feeling" is noticeable in the credits and, again, is pretty abstract but I just feel like rather than an implied "fantasy feeling," we actually feel a sense of a quest being complete with AOL's ending theme. Hard to know if I conveyed that correctly. Either way, a fantastic ending to what I believe to be a fantastic soundtrack.

A Link to the Past: This is where Zelda games started to really branch out on everything. A Link to the Past made a standard not yet known for the way dungeons would be designed, the way the story would play out, and how the music would be used. While the first two games hold a special place in my heart, LttP and onwards are all on a different level that I have found difficult to reach in any other series or medium. I said I believe this is mainly because of the music and this game is the transcendence point for me. Whether it's the existential, haunting cries of the Sanctuary, or the magnificent, blaring horns of Hyrule's castle, I always felt that the music had a way of making such a small environment feel so important and real. I remember when I was a kid and I was camping with my family, we had set up a hammock and everyone was relaxing as it was a hot afternoon. I had brought my gameboy and while I wouldn't get farther than the first couple of dungeons in the dark world for a few years, I always felt so connected to the Dark World theme and I remember on that day I laid it on my chest and I just soaked in everything it made me feel. The complexity that my little console could pump through its speaker moved me and I'm constantly trying to replicate that feeling. When I did actually finish the game I was greeted with one of the most sentimental ending themes in the series. After a long journey and a climactic duel with Ganon, Link comes into contact with the Triforce and wishes for peace on all of Hyrule. Then, well, the wish comes true. This is an emotional choice and something that is kind of cinematic, even though. While the subtitles can be kind of funny (it seems to be half acknowledging all of the good that came from the wish and half showing all of the important characters, like a curtain call), it's one of the best instances of a "What happened to everyone?" montage epilogue. The balance between narrative payoff like "Your Uncle Recovers" or "Flute Boy Plays Again" with more trivial things like "Flippers for Sale" is really well done and may have you laughing and crying in the same five minutes. This is a common theme in Zelda games, and really a lot of media, but Zelda does it especially well. During the montage, the music is jubilant, as is to be expected at this point. The largest adventure yet and we have triumphed. We’ve felled Ganon and all is right in the world again. And then the actual credits start rolling. A slower, more pensive piece starts as the camera pans over both Hyrule and the Golden Realm. The song slowly builds up before it reveals itself as none other than the Main Theme. And what a reveal it is! Sure, now it’s commonplace to seamlessly weave themes together in the finale, especially such prominent ones, but this was exciting, especially after two original themes in a row. And to be connected so wonderfully to the latter, only revealing itself when it so desires- it’s nothing short of extraordinary. It starts with just the melody, with remnants of the past theme still charging it forward. After one loop, an echoing trumpet and drums join in, as well as strings and bass. They all play for one loop before one final loop, back to its former glory and, more notably, former triumph. The Master Sword sleeps, the adventure is over as we know it, and Hyrule is back to how we once knew it.

Link’s Awakening: The Ballad of the Windfish. There are so few melodies out there written so flawlessly for the purpose they were meant. I can’t imagine hearing anything as beautifully fitting coming out of Marin’s voice. She taught us this song in a land that feels so distant now. It feels like she should be here, but it’s all fading now. How fast it fades, too. They all felt so familiar and real and now, with the rising sun, it’s all gone. Who knows if the day will wash our memories of them, too. Our memory is feeble, but it’s all we can rely on for such people and experiences. Then, triumph. Right? That’s what the end of a journey entails. Still, that song is stuck in my head. The Ballad of the Windfish. It returns, ever so briefly, throughout the staff roll. But mostly triumph, right? That’s what this is… We’ve awoken the Windfish and saved… someone, maybe. We vanquished the nightmares and have escaped the illusory reality. Because it was real- it had to be. The theme is mostly a reimagining of the Main Theme, but it doesn’t feel right. Something is off and the repetition really drives it home. We keep telling ourselves that this is how it’s supposed to be, that this is the right way, but it keeps coming back to that Ballad. The land is washed away by the waves, but she still seems to pierce through every once in a while and remind us of what used to be. The theme never seems sure in itself, always questioning whether this end is truly what we should have striven for. This is especially true in the remake. The theme lingers for almost twice the duration as the original (which makes sense as there were certainly more involved in making it). With this duration, like many songs in the game, it takes advantage of the loops. Instead of letting the same instrument keep trying its hand at the tune, it passes it around and repeatedly tests whether this is the right conclusion. Violin, flute, chiptune- they all ponder the melody and their place in it, as Link and us do the same.

I don't quite understand how it works. People exist in the world of light and in the twilight are only ghosts, something like hollograms live streaming what's happening in the light realm. Link is not only invisible to them but cannot touch or talk to them either. And yet he can affect objects that belong to the light world, such as mentioned warehouse. How does it work then? What's the difference between people and objects?

In the past years, there has been a growing theory in the Zelda fanbase started by some people like LoruleanHistorian (no offense to him personally, i just disagree with his theory) which postulates that the Downfall Timeline splits from The Minish Cap, not Ocarina of Time

According to it, when Link fails to kill Vaati in TMC, the villain is merely sealed in the Four Sword, which leads to FS, FSA, ALttP, OoX, LA, ALBW, TFH, TLoZ, and TAoL. The timeline where Link kills him leads to OoT and then to MM, TP, BotW and TotK on the Child Side and TWW, PH and ST on the Adult Side

This theory naturally postulates that FSA Ganondorf is not a reincarnation, but the same Ganondorf from OoT on another timeline. After he is sealed in the Four Sword at the end of FSA, the sword is hidden in the Sacred Realm. Ganon breaks free, gets the Triforce, is unable to return to the Light World and then the Imprisoning War happens, which leads to ALttP

In theory, this seems a valid alternative to the official timeline, but there is a very big problem often overlooked by supporters of it: FSA Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf in this theory. And we all know what happened when Ganondorf got the Triforce in OoT

He didn't. Due to his unbalanced heart, the Triforce splits into 3 pieces and Ganondorf gets only the Triforce of Power

Are you seeing where i'm getting at? If FSA Ganondorf is OoT Ganondorf, just on another timeline, his heart is also unbalanced. If he got stuck in the Sacred Realm and touched the Triforce, the other pieces would go to FSA Link and Zelda anyway, and he would be permanently stuck in the Sacred Realm only with the Triforce of Power

It may be hard to reconcile OoT and ALttP, but the TMC Downfall theory makes it outright impossible for ALttP to happen after FSA

I'd like to hear thoughts about it from supporters of this theory

...is when a game gives you different routes to obtain a helpful/necessary item. In BotW, I loved how you could obtain the Warm Doublet in multiple ways as a reward for different behaviors:

1. By reading the Old Man's journal in the tutorial area, thinking about how to acquire the necessary cooking ingredients, and cooking a dish
2. By finding your way to a prominent landmark by learning how to survive in an inhospitable environment, or
3. Exploring enough off the plateau to find a shop that offers it.

Each path is quite different and rewards different sets of behaviors with the common overlap of thinking on a macro level. Whether you read the journal and cooked or found a way to make it through the cold, you needed to think more broadly about how the games systems mesh together and come to some logical conclusions. The reward is something that's useful, yet not a silver bullet. I think this is why the Warm Doublet has always stood out to me - it's a symbol of feeling you accomplished something, but not that you've peaked.

To my knowledge, BotW only used this sort of design MO a couple more times - on Death Mountain for the heat-resistant armor most notably. TotK really didn't utilize it at all (from my recollection). OoT did - for the Hylian shield, Goron tunic, and Zora tunic.

What are some other times in the series that you've seen this design MO? Where would you like it used more?

Just beat Echoes last night. Assuming it is the last mainline Zelda before the Zelda movie releases, did anyone else find it funny/interesting/too much of a coincidence that the ending is the clearest example of Link speaking in the series? My reaction was “huh, they really wanted to be able to defend the decision to have link talk in the movie by pointing to games.”

I’m aware link talks in almost every game, but the ending cutscene was so explicit about him speaking that I couldn’t help but wonder if that was to prepare people for Link also speaking in the movie. Just seems like too much of a coincidence to have the last game before the movie put more of an emphasis on Link’s speech than any game before lol