/r/OpenChristian
This is a community for progressive Christians and friends to discuss our faith, support each other, and share inspiration for our spiritual journeys. We seek God's message of Peace, Love, and Grace through following the Spirit of Christ.
This is a community for progressive Christians and friends to discuss our faith, support each other, and share inspiration for our spiritual journeys. We seek God's message of Peace, Love, and Grace through following the Spirit of Christ.
We welcome those of any ethnicity, nationality, gender expression and identity, or sexual orientation. OpenChristian is pro-feminist, pro-queer, anti-racist and anti-oppression. This space is Open and Affirming, but we welcome Christians who have chosen celibacy. If you are a ‘Side B’ Christian, please respect Rule 1, but know that you belong here and we want you to participate.
If you have questions about progressive Christianity or Christian affirmation of LGBTQ+ people please see our FAQ.
Please note that as a progressive Christian sub, we are explicitly followers of Christ, as well as LGBTQ+ affirming, anti-racist, feminist, and egalitarian. Friends are very welcome to participate, no matter what you believe. But this is not the place for questioning or debating these positions (it’s not wrong to ask questions but there are many other subs that are overflowing with such posts already).
Do not post or comment about how you believe homosexuality is a sin. We have heard this a thousand times, and you have nothing new to contribute to the conversation. If you do this, you will be banned.
If you see a post or comment that violates one of the rules below, please help us out by reporting it!
1. No bigotry or oppressive rhetoric. All misogyny, racism, antisemitism, LGBTQ+phobia, etc. will result in removal and a permanent ban. This includes commenting that LGBTQ+ love or relationships are sinful. Be aware that using “Pharisee” as a negative slur is considered anti-Semitic.
1b. Side B folks are welcome, but follow Rule 1. This space is Open and Affirming, but we welcome Christians who have chosen celibacy. If you are a Side B Christian, please respect Rule 1 above, but know that you belong here and we want you to participate.
2. Do not promote oppressive/harmful ideology. This includes all attempts to promote or normalise hate, shame, or fear within Christianity (e.g. purity culture, scaremongering against gender-transitioning, “complementarianism”, or “demonic” attacks).
3. No sectarianism. Legitimate criticism of other Christians/faiths is allowed but refrain from prejudice against entire denominations/groups, and against other religions (e.g. Islamophobia).
4. No disparaging Christianity. This is primarily a supportive space for anyone who identifies as Christian. While everyone is welcome to participate we ask that no one disparages Christianity.
5. Be respectful and polite. No personal attacks or accusations, harassment, misrepresentation of others, or insults. This also includes forcing debate, gatekeeping, and denying the validity of another’s faith.
6. Don’t be a troll or a jerk. Don't concern troll, play devil's advocate, or pretend to be confused when you really just want to start a debate. This Rule will be interpreted at the moderators’ discretion.
7. No spamming or proselytizing. Don't post here if you're mass posting to other subreddits. Don't post here for self-promotion unless it's particularly relevant to this subreddit. This is not your soapbox, and we are not here for you to preach at us. If you want to promote your media please ask permission from the mods.
8. Be sensitive about linking to triggering content. Because we want this space to be as safe as possible, we discourage posting images or links to oppressive rhetoric from others. However, we do understand that venting is important sometimes. If you must post something potentially triggering, mark it nsfw or use spoiler tags, and censor any identifying information.
9. Discussion of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict is temporarily prohibited. This topic has proven to be too divisive to discuss without consistently violating this subreddit’s rules. In order to maintain peace and to continue supporting one another, content regarding the ongoing Israel-Palestinian conflict is not permitted at this time.
For other subreddits about Christianity and religion, please see the Index maintained on the wiki.
To chat with other OpenChristians, join one of the following discord communities (note we have no control over their content or direct affiliation):
/r/OpenChristian
Do we have any Christian Agnostics here? I was curious about this label, if anyone here identifies as such and feels like sharing about how they came to their position about Jesus and Christianity in general.
Ofc I will celebrate Christmas and as the lords birthday but ever since I found out we don't exactly know when he was born and Jesus was bealived to be born near the spring more it feels a little off to me. Idk maybe it's cause My mind is paranoid and running on 8 hours of sleep the past three nights. But is it bad that I't throws me
Like I think it is kinda dumb the idea that the earth is only 6,000 years old like no scientist believes that and it is kinda dumb to throw out logic and what we know because of our ability to think and reason. but if the bible says that I don't think I can trust that idk
Growing up as a fundamentalist, I was a very creative child. I was always creating things, stories, painting, drawing, and I became a musician.
My parents, especially my father, seemed to have a strange problem with this. They raised me in a straitjacket of conformity.
I see this "creativity is dangerous" type of behavior so often. I have 37 cousins, and the two musicians, myself and let's call him Andy, have basically left the family because we got no support from them.
Is creativity at odds with Christianity?
We can ground an agapic, progressive Christianity in the social Trinity.
The open, vulnerable relations between the three persons of the Trinity provide a ground for Christian progressivism, because they model egalitarian relations that challenge our unjust social structures. As such, the Trinity provides a powerful analytical method by which we can transform society in the image of our loving God.
We find a tripersonal (based in three persons) experience of salvation in the New Testament, which is where we’ll begin our exploration. Within the Christian tradition, the most consequential speculation on the nature of God occurs in the unrecorded period between the resurrection of Christ and the writing of the New Testament. We have no writings from this period, although we do have writings about this period, such as Acts. But with regard to the Trinity, we have no description of the origins of Trinitarian worship or thought. Although the earliest followers of the Way (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; etc.) were Jewish worshipers of one God, their experience of salvation was tripersonal. That is, they experienced one salvation through three persons, whom they called the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
They expressed this tripersonal salvation in their liturgy (their language of worship), which the authors of the New Testament then incorporated into their writings. For instance, Paul provides a Trinitarian benediction, probably drawing on preexisting liturgical language: “May the grace of our savior Jesus Christ and the love of God and the friendship of the Holy Spirit be with you all!” (2 Corinthians 13:14). The earliest Gospel, Mark, describes the baptism of Jesus in a Trinitarian manner, referring to Jesus himself, the descent of the Spirit upon him in the form of a dove, and a voice from heaven declaring Jesus the Beloved Child of God (Mark 1:11). In the Gospel of John, Jesus declares, “Abba and I are one” (John 10:30) and promises to send a Counselor (the Holy Spirit) to the new community of disciples (John 14:16). So transformative was the community’s experience of tripersonal salvation that the rite of entry into the church became a rite of entry into Trinitarian life: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of Abba God, and of the Only Begotten, and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19 The Inclusive Bible).
Since no historian recorded the transition from Jewish monotheism to early Christian Trinitarianism, we cannot know exactly how or why it happened. But given the vigor of the young church, we can infer that the liturgical expressions recorded in the earliest Christian scriptures were generated within the Christian community and resonated with that community’s experience. In worship, they preached, prayed, and sang the healing that they had received, a healing which came through three persons but led congregants into one body.
In other words, the early Christian community’s experience of salvation was Trinitarian—one salvation through three persons as one God. To assert that their experience was Trinitarian is not to assert that their theology was Trinitarian. The earliest Christians did not think the same way about God that later Christians would think. They felt that their lives had been transformed by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whom they worshiped as one. (Please note: when discussing historical theology, we will use the traditional, gender-specific terminology of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As the series of blogs progresses, we will substitute our own, gender-inclusive terminology.)
The early Christians’ liturgy expressed their experience and laid the foundations for tripersonal (three person) theology on the experience of tripersonal salvation. By the time the church wrote its new scriptures, it could not talk about the Creator without talking about Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Euclideans needed three lines to draw a triangle; Christians needed three persons to talk about God. So John writes: “There are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one” (1 John 5:7 DRA).
How did a monotheistic Jewish justice movement become Trinitarian Christianity?
As mentioned above, Jesus and his first followers practiced Judaism, a religion replete with commandments to worship God alone: “I am YHWH, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Do not worship any gods except me!” (Exodus 20:2–3). Jesus’s favored prophet, Isaiah, reiterates the exclusive status of the one God: “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god” (Isaiah 44:6 NRSV).
Jesus himself affirms Jewish monotheism. In Mark, the earliest gospel written, when a scribe approaches Jesus and asks him which commandment is the greatest of all, Jesus responds by quoting (and embellishing) the Jews’ beloved Shema: “This is the foremost: ‘Hear, O Israel, God, our God, is one. You must love the Most High God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength’” (paraphrasing Deuteronomy 6:4–5). Jesus then couples love of God to love of neighbor by quoting Leviticus 19b: “The second is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these” (Mark 12:29–31).
So, when asserting the greatest commandment in Mark, Jesus offers the preamble of Deuteronomy 6:4 (“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one”). Deuteronomy refers to God with the proper name of YHWH. For the Deuteronomist, God is one deity with one personality bearing one name. But in Matthew 22:35–40 and Luke 10:25–28, which were written after Mark, the greatest commandment conspicuously lacks the monotheistic preamble: “One of them, an expert on the Law, attempted to trick Jesus with this question: ‘Teacher, which commandment of the Law is the greatest?’ Jesus answered: ‘You must love the Most High God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ That is the greatest and first commandment. The second is like it: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law is based—and the Prophets as well” (Matthew 22:35–39).
Both Matthew and Luke were written fifteen to twenty years after Mark. Was the early Christian community already shying away from pure monotheism? This historical development may seem to come out of nowhere, but it has some precedents in Hebrew thought. Prior to the rise of Christianity, and presaging the Trinitarian inclination, Judaism had a “rich tradition of speculation about heavenly intermediaries.” These celestial beings could be the angel of the Lord (Zechariah 1:12), or personified Wisdom (Proverbs 8:22–36), or the sons of God (Genesis 6:2–7), or Satan the accuser (Job 1:6), all of whom fulfilled roles within the heavenly court. For this reason, the earliest preachers of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, all of whom were Jews, could have initially identified Jesus and the Spirit as figures in the heavenly court, then seen their status increase over time.
In his analysis of John’s Prologue (John 1:1–14), Jewish scholar Daniel Boyarin quotes this passage from Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic (Greek speaking) Jew who wrote before the birth of Jesus:
To His Word [Greek: Logos], His chief messenger [Greek: Archangelos], highest in age and honor, the Father [Greek: Patēr] of all has given the special prerogative, to stand on the border and separate the creature from the Creator. This same [Logos] both pleads with the immortal as suppliant for afflicted mortality and acts as ambassador of the ruler to the subject. He glories in this prerogative and proudly proclaims, “And I stood between the Lord and you” [Deuteronomy 5:5].
This passage presages the early Christians’ experience of Jesus as an advocate for humankind to the Father, and as a revelation from the Father to humankind. Further, in his speculative work On Dreams, Philo goes on to offer language anticipatory of the Trinity itself: “The Divine Word [Theios Logos] descends from the fountain of wisdom [Sophia] like a river. . . . [The psalmist] represents the Divine Word as full of the stream of wisdom [Sophia].”
Remarkably, Philo is working with an explicitly tripartite spiritual experience: of a Sustaining God who provides a Mediator to humankind, that Mediator being full of Wisdom. If read in a Christian context, then Philo’s Logos anticipates Christ and Philo’s Sophia anticipates the Holy Spirit. While we cannot know the exact genesis of his thought, Philo’s theology may represent a widespread, pre-existing notion among Hellenized Jews. If so, then for some this expectation was fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth, then ratified by the appearance of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
The social Trinity exemplifies agape—the universal, unconditional love of God.
Whatever the historical source of Trinitarian thought, these first Jewish-Christians sensed the love of the Parent, salvation through the Child, and inhabitation by the Spirit. They sensed that three persons were producing one salvation. They sensed the Trinity. In keeping with their monotheistic tradition, they also sensed a unifying quality of those three persons: love.
Whenever Jesus speaks of God, Jesus speaks of love—love of God, love of neighbor, and love of self (Matthew 22:37–40). This law of love admits neither exception nor compromise: Jesus teaches his followers that outsiders will recognize them by their love (John 13:35) and commands them to love their enemies (Luke 6:35). Indeed, Jesus so deeply associates God with love that John later declares, “God is love” (1 John 4:8).
Love cannot be abstract; love needs a beloved. All love is love of; hence all love implies relation. If God is love then God must be love between persons: biblically, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The early American theologian Jonathan Edwards writes: “God is Love shews that there are more persons than one in the deity, for it shews Love to be essential & necessary to the deity so that his nature consists in it, & this supposes that there is an Eternal & necessary object, because all Love respects another that is the beloved.”
So, according to Edwards, when John asserts that God is love, he necessarily asserts that God is internally related. Indeed, if he asserts that God in Godself is love, then he asserts that God in Godself is interpersonal—inherently more than one. Love is not the Godhead beyond God, a singular, pure abstraction. Instead, love is the self-forming activity of the triune God, the most salient quality of each divine person, and the disposition of each person toward the other—and toward creation.
Paradoxically, Christianity has inherited an experience of God as one and many, singular and plural. The tradition has articulated this experience by adopting a both/and epistemology, a way of knowing that preserves creative tensions rather than resolving them into a simplistic absolute. God is both three and one; God is tri-unity; God is Trinity. This concept of God presents Christianity with its greatest challenge and its greatest opportunity: to think, act, and feel as many who are becoming one. (adapted from Jon Paul Sydnor, The Great Open Dance: A Progressive Christian Theology, pages 42-47)
*****
For further reading, please see:
Boff, Leonardo. Trinity and Society. Oregon: Wipf & Stock, 2005.
Boyarin, Daniel. “John’s Prologue as Midrash.” In The Jewish Annotated New Testament, 2^(nd) ed, edited by Amy-Jill Levine and Marc Zvi Brettler. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2017.
Gerstner, John H. Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1980.
Juel, Donald. “The Trinity and the New Testament.” Theology Today 54 no. 3 (October 1997) 314–24. DOI: 10.1177/004057369705400303.
Keating, Daniel A. “Trinity and Salvation: Christian Life as an Existence in the Trinity.” In The Oxford Handbook of the Trinity, edited by Gilles Emery and Matthew Levering, 442–53. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012. Oxford Academic Online. Accessed 14 Nov. 2022.
Moltmann, Jurgen. The Trinity and the Kingdom: The Doctrine of God. San Francisco: Harper and Row, 1981.
I just don't want to be part of a group of people who are so willfully ignorant of other peoples opinions and I just don't want to be part of a group with people like that
Like when I see a new earther like you don't have to throw out your critical thinking abilities to be a christian. And it just annoys me so much when I see people like that it is so ignorant and if anybody else has a different opinion they are teaching false doctrine and are going to hell for sin.
It's pretty clear from a starting point that Jesus does not participate in violence in the Bible, telling Peter to put down his sword and obviously all the love your enemy turn the other cheek verses. But honestly forgive me if it's me being a sinner but I've never been able to be on board with full radical pacifism in response to systematic oppression and i was hoping for arguments or insight or something
I think martyrship is a valuable thing obviously in the realm of dying for sticking to your religion, but I am incredibly conflicted on the idea of (functionally) martyring other people. There's that commonly used example of "if someone wanted to you renounce your faith at gunpoint or they'd kill your family what would you do" where the Christian consensus is (bafflingly to me) that you should let your family die martyring them. I think that example applies to war although on a different scale. Non violence was tried in Nazi Germany and obviously didn't work, with the holocaust only ending after ww2. I can't bring myself to see how it would be the greater evil to fight than to let evil people commit atrocities unopposed. If non violence doesn't work because of the abhorrent beliefs of a system then I just don't understand what the ethics are
I would appreciate insight cause it's kind of giving me a faith crisis
I saw a post from another user here earlier wondering if they would still have autism and ADHD in heaven and it got me thinking.
Wasn’t sure what to flair this, I hovered over “lgbtq issues” for a long time, but for some reason now I’m thinking theology fits better, not really sure why. Just a last minute feeling I had.
I’m a trans woman, I have been on HRT for 2 years and I’m starting to “pass” kind of ok as a woman like half the time. We all know our bodies are corrupt and impure and that our spirits are pure and not corrupt, which is the main basis for the argument that being trans isn’t inherently “against God”.
But that got me wondering how does God see me? REALLY see me? I know some people will say that God doesn’t see me as a gender, or that it shouldn’t matter to me what gender he sees me as, but it does, for some reason.
Was I always a woman to him? And if I was, will I have a woman’s body in heaven or a man’s? The Bible says we will get new glorified bodies in heaven. Or will we all have some kind of unified ungendered bodies that all look more or less the same?
I understand this is little more than an exercise of independent theology as the Bible isn’t really explicit on this matter, or on a lot of other issues regarding heaven and how it will look and be.
I am currently working with my UMC trying to get rebaptized because when I initially was it was under my deadname and before I came out. The episcopal church wouldn’t do it when I was going there because they said they believe in one baptism, and that Victoria was baptized that day even if I didn’t even know I was Victoria yet, because my spirit was always that of Victoria, and it was my spirit not my name or body that was baptized. That explanation helped, but I still kind of want to actually be baptized again now that I’m on the other side of most of it. And be baptized as the real me.
And then that begs the question have I really always been Victoria in Gods eye? I know the Bible says God changes peoples names sometimes, and even the eunuch prophecy in Isiah mentions eunuchs who were outcast from the church being given new eternal names by God and being brought back into the church to rule it, because of the sins of those against us outcasting us they would be put under us in Gods version of justice.
These are things I spend way too much time thinking about. I think I just want to be seen accurately by God the way I see myself. As we want for everyone important in our lives who we love and care for. For most of my life, God was the only father figure I had until a few years ago, and so I do care very much of his opinion and what he thinks of me.
I know that being trans is more or less a birth defect, having one gender of brain being born into the opposite sex of body that doesn’t match that brain. And the brain, I would think is the true self. And the Bible and Jesus seem to agree with most of that premise as well. So that would mean if my brain is that of a female, then to God I’ve always been female even before I knew I was, right? Would I still look like myself in heaven? If I have a female body in heaven, would it be the way my body started to look naturally after years of being on estrogen therapy? Or would it be something else?
I am aware I will get a lot of advice telling me to pray and just be alone with God, I have but he doesn’t seem to be giving me an answer one way or the other on it. I just keep feeling peace and him telling me he loves me. And the “you” when he says “I love you” is always incredibly emphasized, like almost physically audible. It’s hard to explain.
Sorry for such a convoluted mess of a question, really didn’t know the best way to word most of it.
I feel a connection to Jesus but I am having a hard time with the label of Christian. I don't really resonate with the bible and I have a hard time believing that Jesus was born from a virgin birth or came back from the dead. I don't believe in sin or hell. I also view god in more of a pantheistic sense (god is the universe) and personify god as a female deity. I believe Jesus was very connected to god and spiritually gifted. He meant that we are all children of god, not just him. I think most of the bible is just made up and not really what Jesus intended to teach. I believe in the Holy trinity but as a creator, spirit, and child. I know my beliefs are a little confusing so feel free to ask questions to clarify.
Is there any group or religion that I would fit into? Even loosely? Does anyone else feel this way?
Hi, I’m curious if I will have my autism and adhd in heaven. I’m unsure because my disorders aren’t “bad” or anything so I’m a bit confused. Thanks!
I've grown up my whole life in a Southern Baptist family, and my dad is a pastor of a small church. Over the past few years, I've slowly shifted my position on LGBT issues (to no surprise, my parents are anti-) and realized that I'm transgender myself. I considered transitioning in secret, but I don't think that's a wise decision honestly. The Bible says to love our neighbors, and honor our parents, and to not deceive or lie to others. I love my family to death, and I know they love me back, and I want to maintain that bond. I've decided then that the best way to do that is to come out before I transition, and be very open about what I'm doing with my family.
Unfortunately, I can't see that conversation going well. I know my parents' stances on these issues - they interpret the Bible as being anti-LGBT. Even if I personally disagree, I'm certainly less-read on these subjects than my dad especially. That being said, I think there's perhaps some hope that they change their mind - I believe the Spirit can work in people and soften their hearts, and my parents tend to be on the more progressive end of conservative Christians in that they aren't conspiracy nutjobs, and generally hold pretty left-wing views in a lot of aspects. My dad in particular is honestly more of a centrist, and he's harshly criticized the culture war the right has been engaging in, even if he generally agrees with the sentiment. I have some faint hope he might be more understanding to my struggles.
Some things I know I want to mention:
- I am still a Christian, and have no plans to leave the church or stop following Jesus
- I have prayed about my gender dysphoria for over two years now, and God has only increased my certainty that transitioning is the decision I should make
- I find that the Scriptural argument against transgender people is extremely flimsy and unsubstantiated (this doesn't work as well if the conversation swings towards homosexuality since I think that's harder to refute from a Scriptural standpoint, but the Bible is really the sticking point here)
- I am not making this decision to transition out of a desire to conform to society or appease the world - I will be losing a lot and making my life significantly harder in many ways by making this choice, including possibly losing my entire Christian community at home and at my college
All that to say... how should I even begin to approach this conversation? What are some things I should say and do? If you've had to go through this yourself, what should I expect? Any advice would be immensely appreciated.
Why has god made me this way? i am chronically Ill and the point of my illness is to mentally suffer. and its uncurable.
Why would god make me with an illness thats bound to make me suffer greatly, when do I find out where it gets better? I wanted the opinion of certainly better christians than me because I am lost
Hi. I’m struggling with my faith at the moment. I believe in God but I just find it so hard.
I see people talk about heaven, and they say it’s an eternity of worshipping and praising God. I don’t really.. like to? I’m sorry if that sounds bad or sacrilegious. I don’t like singing worship songs, I just.. don’t. I feel bad. I just don’t feel it the way other people do. It just feels like singing a boring song over and over. I’ve also seen things on this sub that say people don’t actually go to heaven, and now I’m confused and my fear of death is flaring up. What happens then?
I feel like God and Jesus are mad at me for not liking to worship. Is that the case? I just can’t enjoy it. When good things happen, I thank God, but I’ve never felt the absolute need to just get down on my knees and sing ‘God is good’ at the top of my lungs. Is that bad??
Yesterday was...rough. First Thanksgiving after losing everything in Hurricane Helene and it was just...somber? No big dinner or anything, really just me reflecting on what's happened and being thankful that I do at least have shelter now. Considering it's 30 degrees outside here right now, that's a VERY good thing! Even though there was really no dinner for Thanksgiving (I did have a bit of rice, though), I'm hoping Christmas will be different. A local church did take signups for a Christmas Dinner, so I have my name down for that. I won't get more food assistance until mid-December ish, so I'll be waiting and watching for food pantries in the area to open/receive donations so I can at least get a little. I still feel stuck and just every kind of tired, but I'm doing what I can to hold my head high. Keeping an eye out for any Christmas related giveaways in my area too, I think a little tree or some decor would be nice, but food and necessities have to come first right now. I'm hoping that I'll be able to find some strength and happiness again this season, too. I'm trying my best! I hope you'll all keep praying for me, I have no doubt that prayers have helped SO much so far <3
As rediscover my faith I have been somewhat resetting to how I was I was regularly practicing. I feel like how I have been living my life has made me a mess. Rhe foundations on which my entire life were built on were conservative. Now they weren't extreme, so I've never held any particularly controversial beliefs due to this, however given the circles I live in, simply being so is controversial. So my question is, is there any place for conservatism, do I need to be progressive, some balance of the two?
I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory and I accept that. I also realize this is not really a Christian post but this is my normal group.
It just seems that the extremism we are seeing, that I think is somewhat unprecedented, feels like a move to push away progressive thinkers so that the extreme right has power well into the future.
Is it just me feeling this push?
Hello :) I am a bisexual girl. I came from a Catholic family, my parents and brother are very Catholic. I used to go to the Church every Sunday but I don't do it anymore. I find it hard to find religious people who accept lgbt people. I would like an advice how to meet religious accepting people.
People in east claims that pre marital sex hampers traditional marriage and hurts the child.It is also bad to be promiscuous. It is also bad to have sex with others without marriage.what will happen with the child?How the child will be raised?what will happen with the inheritence?How will all the things will be helpful from christian viewpoint? Please enlighten me......
There is a frustrating paradox I keep running into. Over my many discussions, I keep running into the phrase "God loves you unconditionally", or how "God loves you as you are", and many other variations.
Thing is, religion, especially as presented in the various holy texts, is literally about conditions. In fact, there are few things I can imagine are more conditional than religions. For the purposes of this post, I will stick with the Bible. However, bear in mind that the other faiths are not immune to this; in fact, some are far more conditional in their approach (viewing religious texts as a list of rules with permissibility and denial).
Examining the different denominations of Christianity, most of them claim a certain dogma. Things as simple as "you need to be baptized to be Christian" to greater extremes such as "you need to be baptized to go to Heaven"/"you will go to hell/purgatory for being unbaptized". I could go on, but the Bible, while not intended to be used as a checklist, very much contains a giant checklist of "things to do to be saved/have the love of God". Verses will say that God's love is "unconditional", and then a few pages later, list all the conditions needed to earn it.
This is the frustrating wall that I've run into with religion, and why it feels impossible for me to "take a break" or "step away". People can say that "God loves me no matter what", but the actual checklist of things says otherwise. Regardless of what I do, the "truth", or "God" will persist outside of my actiosn, unchanging and immutable, until I conform to it and do all these things correctly.
This further fuels the sentiment that faith and God is a multiple choice exam, and the first step is to pick the correct exam sheet to fill out for a good grade (starting with the big branches like Judaism/Christianity/Islam, followed by the correct form, so Orthodox Jewish/Catholic/Sunni, etc).
Unless I have completely misunderstood the point of religion, I find myself constantly trying to throw myself into this thing I very much view as a meat grinder: a mould that will carve from me the unnecessary things and make me into something else, whether I want to or not. And thus, comparatively, it is meaningfless then to "do good" outside of this structure, because this mould is what gives "good" its meaning. In other words, donating money to someone is only "good" because it is "Christian", and would therefore be a meaningless act outside of this structure, because it is what gives it intent.
But I can't seem to make myself fit. I have learned and read and gone to churches, and whenever someone tells me the conclusion that "God is so much greater than these boundaries" or "it doesn't matter" (including by clergy), I have a hard time accepting those words, because clearly, as it is lived, the "structure" of religion very much matters.
What do I do? How do I reconcile this paradox of an unconditional God and His conditional faiths??
For those who don’t know, the milk jug analogy is a way of saying prayer is meaningless and doesn’t actually affect anything, and they do it by comparing God to a milk jug. It’s basically this:
“If you pray to God for a thing, the only 3 possible answers are yes, no, or nothing. For example, if you pray for God to make it rain today, it might, but it also might not. I could do the same thing with a jug of milk. I could say hey Mr milk jug, I’d really like it to rain today. It might not, but it also might. If it does, that still doesn’t prove the milk jug is God. You can produce exactly the same results whether praying to God or a milk jug. The possible answers are yes no or nothing, no matter which one you pray to”
I do believe prayer works and our petitions can move God, but obviously that doesn’t move them.
I should also add that this is for civil debate purposes, I am a member of several debate forums where such conversations take place at. I do not purposefully go into atheist spaces to troll them lol.
All I can really offer in response is anecdotes, which don’t really count in formal debate and doesn’t really defeat their argument anyway.
Another one I have trouble with is what happens when people’s prayer requests are directly in conflict with one another. For example the election. A lot of people prayed for trump to win. But a lot of people also prayed for Harris to win. Obviously both of those couldn’t happen and be made reality.
A sort of funny take on this is in Bruce Almighty when he organizes the “prayers” into a sort of email database, but then gets tired of answering them one at a time and just does “yes to all” and the world almost immediately descends into absolute chaos.
“I won the lottery last night. But so did like a million other people so I only won like 17 dollars”.
It's so easy to fall into the legalist mindset that everything which can be questioned as not holy is a sin but it feels like this mindset rather puts us down than helps to serve God and people. Idk what to do.