Hello everyone. I'm still researching about hell and all, looking at arguments from both sides (infernalists and universalists), and my friend, who disagrees with universalism, came up with these arguments: First, if someone didn't want to love god on Earth, there's no reason they would love him after death. Second, if someone regretted their actions while in hell, it is due to their suffering, and not because of their love for God.

Can someone refute these claims? Thanks

jansenism

Note: the link is to the archived page of "pope boniface X" who is either a calvinist troll (as per an investigation of his email addresses I saw on a blog) and\or a cult leader on discord. BUT I checked his quotes, all I could, double-checked them with different AI chats. His reports of the teaching of "infant damnation" , strictest use of EENS is -tragically, if I may- consistent.

So I want to ask two questions: I think hell is impossible to be true due to reductio ad absurdum. For sure; a hell-er may accuse me of the fallacy of "appeal to consequences" -but I won't say the consequences are BAD (for argument's sake), so that rebuttal is null. The logical extension of saying unbaptized babies are damned is to advocate for, for example, paramilitary gangs of catholics snatching babies or toddlers from non-catholics ,baptizing them and then giving them back. This is BAD, it's evil--but the historically honest supporter of Hell doctrine is forced to ask: WHY is it bad? I'm following the theology to it's maximum possible extent. if he sincerely believes his theology, he must concede my (evil, in reality) idea is in fact good. Otherwise, he is inconsistent within his hell-theology logic.

And also; it seems several saints said universalism is heresy, but have it happened the other way around? st isaac the syrian MAY -if what I read is true- have said eternal, suffering hell is "blasphemy". I can be happy with a Church allowing both options--I am saddened by them allowing hell-theologians to say universalists are heretics, but forbidding universalists from stating the other camp is heretical. If they use this double-standard, they are NOT allowing both opinions. they are using sophism and tautology to maintain and assert hell, still.

I want to believe.

The digital age has fostered a reading culture often characterized by speed, skimming and superficial, fragmented, and, often, chaotic consumption.

The sacred reading style of Lectio Divina, with its emphasis on slow, meditative, contemplative reading approach, in which you allow a text to “speak” to you, offers a stark contrast to these trends.

Madeleine L’Engle has said that "[t]here is nothing so secular that it cannot be sacred, and that is one of the deepest messages of the Incarnation."

With this in mind, while traditionally associated with sacred texts, could the practice and application of the principles of Lectio Divina, with its focus on personal reflection, meditation, and deeper connection and meaning, be extended to all kinds of texts, regardless of the text's original content or intent?

This might include texts that originally might not have had any explicitly religious or spiritual focus, such as secular fiction, historical documents, fairy tales, political manifestos, prose, poems, or philosophical treatises.

If you have had an experience of trying to implement the sacred, contemplative reading approach in relation to "secular" texts, how did it go?

How might changing the way we approach and interpret all kinds of texts reveal deeper, hidden or even originally unintended layers of meaning and personal resonance that might be missed with a more conventional reading approach?

I would have accepted christianity until I found that god ordered the massacre and I cannot accept it.Please anyone can explain it to me any interpretation of it?Almost always I thought that was hyperbole until in reddit community people telling me it happened literally.....

Parable of Rich Man and Lazarus informs that there are no second chances given,as father Abraham says that there is a great chasm between them,How can this be explained if all souls are reconciled to God

I hope this is the right subreddit for this question. I honestly don’t have much trust in the advice of Christians who believe in the mainstream teaching on hell, so this is my safe space for the time being.

For context- I grew up Baptist, but I spent the last 4 years steeped in reformed theology. This was a knee jerk reaction after getting into hyper charismatic theology and then realizing I don’t believe half of the things they do like speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit or holy laughter.

However, I have many close relatives who are charismatic and they always seem to be hearing from God. They’re always having dreams where God is supposedly telling them things, and those things end up happening or being true. I don’t want to follow their theology in order to hear from God the way they do because I don’t agree with a lot of it. I don’t want to be prayed over in “tongues” or attend their church services.

I’m in the process of deconstructing. I’m deconstructing from my reformed beliefs mostly. Especially ECT. I still believe in God, and I still believe in the Gospel of Jesus. But I feel like I don’t know how to even hear Him anymore. I keep asking for dreams or confirmations but I don’t think He’s speaking to me. Also I’m sure I could post this on the deconstruction subreddit, but I think a lot of people there deconstructed out of the faith so I don’t know if their answers would be helpful to me.

Sorry if this isn't the right subreddit for this. I've heard people say that hell isn't fire and brimstone, rather just separation from god. What do you think?

How the heck do you keep faith? My faith is all over the place constantly. The state of the world, the hate, judgmental nature and Christians acting completely un Christ like.

How do you do it my friends?

Brennan Manning once said that "the number one cause of atheism in the world today are Christians who confess Jesus with their mouth and walk out the door, and deny him by their lifestyle."

What do you personally believe is the number one reason people abandon Christianity? Have you experienced any contrasting examples to the aforementioned negative pattern? Would it change anything if more Christians demonstrated genuine love and compassion, instead of hypocrisy, judgment and condemnation?

https://youtu.be/42pNfgx5qLg?si=KV8RAMuUn10WSab0

Hopefully this is the right category. Since the speaker is a believer in ultimate reconciliation. Though he doesn't consider himself a Christian. Actually he has a pretty low opinion of the whole Christian religion.

But he said that he predicted a trump victory, and that God really wanted him in office. But he said some stuff about Trump being slain and being taken over bodily by the Antichrist within the next two years, I think.

What do you think of this report?

I was in some pentecostal groups online and i learned about the refiners fire/fiery trial/dark night of the soul and I felt that process started for me or else im going insane.

I felt God wanted to make me a pastor and remove my hedonistic side and in order to do that he needed to break me down and build me up like a wild horse that needs to be tamed quoting one pastors word.

I feel that he uses alot of anxiety in my life, and its brutal.

Thoughts? Is this a refiners fire trial or am i going insane? Have you got any experience of this?

Title

Sorry but I'm struggling to find anything in the OT that specifically states that hell is eternal damnation or eternal punishment, can anyone help me with some verses please? It seems to be very strong in the NT but not OT?

Hello everyone,

I would really like to hear the counter-arguments against this because every time I come back to it, I become more and more convinced that Yeshua and his disciples believed in reincarnation.

According to the Gospel of John 9:1–12, Jesus saw a man who had been blind since birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus replied: "Neither this man nor his parents sinned ... but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him."

For his disciples to ask him whether his blindness was a result of his sin, this would suggest that they must have had a belief in reincarnation because if he had been blind since birth, the sin must have been committed before birth. This strongly implies a belief in reincarnation.

If they didn't have a belief in reincarnation then the question makes little-to-no sense. Why would they posit a question that implied a belief in reincarnation if they had no belief in it? It could be argued this would be like a group of atheists asking an atheist if a man was going to go to hell for murder, it doesn't seem to make sense.

What are your opinions on this please?

I have been questioning my faith for about a year and a half now, maybe two. I have come to realize some things I believed growing up in southern Baptist churches aren’t true. I was lied to by my old denomination. I don’t know what denomination I am currently though. I am having a problem where the more I research the Bible and the history behind it the more I question things. Like I think I am a universalist but worry about hell. I am questioning so much. Even the existence of God and heaven. Idk if this is the right sub for this, but the amount I am questioning is giving me a lot of stress and worry. Does anyone have any advice?

When I really think about the fact that the Lord has allowed the few of us to have the scales fall from our eyes, it becomes apparent how important it is that we share the good news with the world.

The churches are not teaching this. It's up to us. In kindness, in love, never forcing but instead calling those forward that the Lord intends to hear, to continue the message.

I hear people that talk about Gods grace time is our earthly lives. Is there any real merit to that? if one passes away without faith will they be doomed? I can’t get fully behind that. Does that have support in the bible? I know aionios means age and not everlasting. life is full of deception and unanswered questions I feel scared for the individuals who won’t get the message here on earth, or have an honest rejection like they don’t know who Christ really is. starting to become more universalist as I’m learning though, just wanted to throw that question out, because that’s huge, like Protestantism now is pretty much like Arminianism like God desires all to be saved, but it’s up to us here to have faith. I can’t get behind that. I have close friends who are Jewish and at this point of time I won’t be able to confidently evangelize people, I have friends who are agnostic, It’s not even about my friends who I know, it’s a worry about everybody. Universal reconciliation is legitimately the good news. I know the early early church was very cheerful until Augustine.

Like Cliffe Knechtle, he’s non denominational very avid follower of Christ and the bible. He says we choose to live with Christ on earth, we choose to spend eternity with him. we choose the opposite on earth, we choose to spend eternity away from him. I think that is a very broad statement to make. It isn’t so simple. I think Cliffe is brilliant though. But those comments mess with me.

What Christian denomination do you being to? Is the denomination you are in now the same one you grew up in? After becoming a Universalist, did you change denominations?

Thought you guys would appreciate this icon of that crazy ‘heretic’ Origen.

Particularly the fire part in 10:27, I’m really scared that means god DOES burn his enemies and those who sin…

I've come to the conclusion that universalism is true, but ever since its like I rely on universalism instead of Jesus first. It's like I rely on hell being temporary instead of Jesus first.

My biggest issue is, I think if I were to be convinced universalism is false and ECT is true, I don't think I'd believe in God anymore.

I'm especially worried about when I die, what if ECT is true? Like how would I react toward God? I personally think I'd be really confused how that's just and have a bunch of questions, or be furious at God if his arguments don't make sense.

I know there are a lot of hypotheticals on this post, so I'll return back to my main question...

How do I trust in Jesus over my trust for universalism?

I've gone through Matthew for the first time after becoming a universalist and figured I'd share what I found. If you have anything to add, please do so.

Matthew 5:26 NKJV [26] Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Indicating those in hell will one day get out

Matthew 5:35 NKJV [35] nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

The Earth is his footstool

Matthew 12:11 NKJV [11] Then He said to them, “What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?

Possibly indicating a saving from hell or 'the pit'

Matthew 18:14 NKJV [14] Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Does God get what he wants?

Matthew 18:23-34 NKJV [23] Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. [24] And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. [25] But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. [26] The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ [27] Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. [28] “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ [29] So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ [30] And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. [31] So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. [32] Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. [33] Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ [34] And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

This parable supports Universalism

Matthew 19:23-26 NKJV [23] Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [24] And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” [25] When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” [26] But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

All things are possible through God, so would saving a rich man also be possible? I think yes

Matthew 25:41 NKJV [41] “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The first verse in all of Matthew to say hell is eternal, though we know from past context that its infact not eternal

Matthew 25:46 NKJV [46] And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Second and last verse about ECT

# of Verses for/against Universalism:

Universalism: 20

ECT: 2

First off, I see rule 1 and I'm hoping that "may be removed" means it might be given a chance. 🤞🏻

I figured a poll would be the least dicey way to ask this since people can just anonymously click an answer. I know that since it isn't a denomination there isn't one "official" answer but based on the website it seems like it would lean toward affirming, so I'm curious.

Please please PLEASE be civil. I even made an option for the ones who don't want to be. 😂

View Poll

Historically, the dominant view was that animals were created solely to serve human needs or for human benefit. But as our understanding of the natural world grows, this anthropocentric view seems increasingly outdated.

With scientific discoveries like evolution that emphasize the interconnectedness of all life, it is also increasingly difficult to reconcile this view with our evolving understanding of the natural world.

The sheer scale and diversity of the animal kingdom, with countless species existing independent of any direct relationship with humanity, further complicates the perspective that they were created solely for our benefit.

Additionally, the idea of an all-loving God creating a world teeming with creatures destined for suffering and ultimately, oblivion, strikes as a bit odd. If God’s love extends to all of creation, wouldn't it stand to reason that His plan for redemption would include more than just humanity?

Could it be that the purpose of the animal world lies not in its utility to humans, but in its intrinsic value as part of God's good creation?

This idea, though appealing, still leaves us with the problem of widespread gratuitous pain and suffering in the animal kingdom.

One possible solution could be the redemptive power of God's new creation. If God is truly creating something "new," could this new creation involve a radical transformation of the entire natural order, one that eliminates gratuitous suffering and establishes harmony among all creatures?

Some theologians even speculate about the possibility of animal salvation, suggesting that God's love may extend beyond humanity to encompass the redemption of the entire created order and a new era of peace and harmony for all creatures.

I would be interested in hearing your personal thoughts regarding the purpose of the animal world within God's creation, and whether you believe the non-human world might be saved as well along with humanity.

I freely admit I don't know much about it, but I want to look into it. However, I don't really know the details of seminary school or if "seminary" is actually a specific denomination and there's something else? Can anyone break it down for me or point me to some sources? Thanks!