https://youtu.be/cBmY8vma_wg?si=NJ3WD2iIwH34YB-7

The first 2 minutes of this video contains statements by folks serving life sentences talking about how they are not the person they were 20 something years ago. They point out why would you hold someone to the worst decision they ever made while they were in ignorance.

This same line of reasoning is why I am convinced that God, who is love, will not condemn his own creation to eternal torment. God will save all of the creation.

Yesterday I saw a YouTube video of the German theologian Markus Voss (who is an infernalist) in which he showed some arguments against post-mortal redemption. One of them was about the second epistle of Clement (an Apostolic father) who seemed to be a student of Saint Peter. In the 8. chapter there is stated that people cannot be redempted after the death. How do Universalists respond to that?

Has anyone here navigated going public on social media with their Christian Universalism theology who also have connections with a lot of teens? Their parents are very likely to freak the hell out when their kids start talking to them about what we are saying. There's issues here of 1) jeopardizing long-term trust with families 2) creating doubt in kids whose brains aren't developed enough for the rabbit holes this kind of deconstruction will lead them to 3) potentially losing relationships with family and friends.

My current job is a job that people expect me to fully support the normal Evangelical statement of faith but I will soon be leaving that job and coming out of the closet. Just trying to prepare myself for the backlash, fear and disappointment. But I genuinely want to be a part of leading young adults to a better theology

I've made the mistake of scrolling through anti-universalist comments, and now I'm feeling pretty awful about myself. I wish I knew how to not let those things get to me. Does anyone have any wisdom on this? How can I combat the goblins inside my head when I see or hear about ECT and how people expect me to believe in it?

(I apologize if I am not making sense, I'm really tired lol and wanted to get this written)

Something I've seen infernalists bring up against universalism is that god only forgives those who ask for it, and that those in hell are either unable to ask or do not wish to ask for forgiveness. Same goes for people of other faith. Because they never repented to jesus, they go to hell for the same reason.

Obviously, universalists don't believe this. But what are some strong arguments other than bible verses could we use to prove that christ sacrifice extends to all? And do you think those in hell get a chance to repent?

So, I came across a comment from anothet sub that stated that Jesus was a made of up character born from something called "syncretism."

Here's the comment in question:

"There's a simple reason to believe that they did make him up, though not from scratch. King Harod loved Greek culture, and he basically forced it onto everyone in that region who he ruled over.

Greeks loved their demigods. Jews loved their "still not here yet" Messiah.

What do you get when you put a demigod (born of a god + a human woman) together with a messiah?

Jesus.

Crossover fanfiction.

Look into "syncretism": the amalgamation or attempted amalgamation of different religions, cultures, or schools of thought. "interfaith dialogue can easily slip into syncretism"

That's how Jesus came about; there was no "cult leader" needed to syncretically bring forth a demigod/ messiah crossover."

What can I say to debunk this? Is there any evidence that we have that could help me refute this claim

Just curious among y'all. Full disclosure, I think 5 is where I am. Smack-dab in the middle.

I know that's Strong Concordance and associated sources are still very popular here, and as used by other universalists.

Yesterday, someone posted what they said was the entry for the Greek word basanos as found in Strong's Concordance. Finding the source of their quotation on BibleHub.com, I noticed that the site has made significant changes to their entries for each Greek or Hebrew word since the last time I visited. If I had to guess, the entries are now 5 to 10 times longer than they were previously, despite still being listed under "Strong's Lexicon."

Reading a few of them, I immediately realized something was very wrong. Not only was a lot of the new information simply incorrect in both subtle and overt ways, but it seems unmistakably AI-generated.

I tried to find the source of this material elsewhere online or on Google Books, but searching for the exact text yielded no results whatsoever, other than the entries on BibleHub.com itself. I then looked up the same Greek words in the most relevant and extensive published book associated with Strong's, The New Strong's Expanded Dictionary of Bible Words. Not only do its definitions originate from a different lexicon entirely, but again they don't match what appears on BibleHub at all.

BibleHub gives utterly no indication that these definitions and analysis don't come from a Strong's source, much less that they're AI-generated. But this seems to already be misleading people, and who knows how long it's been like this.

One thing that just came to my mind - understanding God's nature through universalism is a great gift, but it almost feels like I've spoiled the great surprise at the end of life through my own introspection and curiosity. It's like God let me in on his big reveal early, just a third (hopefully lol) into my life. Now great, I feel like everything in life makes sense, I value the right things and what not, but in some ways it distances me from God, spending less time being introspective as much as I used to. It's as if life is solved, there is no real need to ponder on spirituality anymore. I have relearned (I say that because I believe we are all born pure and knowing God is love - hatred is learned) how God thinks through study and reflection; I try to act as he would if he was here in the flesh. It's not a rational thing I'm always weighing up, I just know what the right thing to do is through feeling (leaning toward self sacrifice is the key, golden rule); when I mess up or get it wrong, that's just a lesson I needed to learn to calibrate my heart more like God's, with everything happening for a reason as a lesson or simply a blessing, no coincidences. Usually it's a case of lack of emotional control or ego, which can then be traced back to past bad actions or expectations. It's like I've been hard reset to factory settings through that period of introspection I had. Now I'm just living life out on those new settings, as I did before I understood this, yet with such a stark difference in my daily joy and peace, even when I'm messing up badly. The fruits of the spirit grow within me (more generous, humble, kind, patient, nonjudgemental etc). My life went from athiest, to deep introspective reflection most days over a period of years, to now never really praying or spending time with God alone for more than a few minutes. I don't feel the need to.

Well basically, anyone else spending less time being introspective after understanding universalism? Do you feel like it's the summit of spirituality? What is next to understand? I feel like the only logical next step is actually living out what we understand, turning reason to actions that will positively affect the world. In that there is no study really, as real life experiences has become the new best teacher. It becomes a case of living it out, rather than thinking it out (my risk adverse self would say it's better to think it out first). I'm not saying I know everything, certainly far from it, but I do believe that we have received the most important revelation one could have about our existence here. I would say universalism (and so through it learning about God's true nature) is the greatest gift to your mind you could ever receive. Following from those points, it feels like life is solved - I know what is expected, it's just a matter of living it out now, which is mostly a blessing, but it does feel like I've ruined the surprise at the end.

I follow my imperfect heart. letting real life experience be the teacher and guide, healing it toward perfection. I think that's the best you can expect. Through universalism, you understand the work God is doing inside your soul, it appears to me you just need to be a willing and cheerful partner to God as much as you can.

It's been a few weeks since I asked my last question as I study.

Matthew 26:23-24 ESV [23] He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. [24] The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.26.23-24.ESV

If Judas Iscariot will one day be in Heaven with Jesus then why did Jesus make this statement about it being better had Judas never been born? Thanks

Saw a recent crosspost by u/GoldenRedditUser on this sub that links to this argument:

Link

"But simply human actions have eternal effect. Our actions affect a lot more than we realize. If a person kills a person, a human judge only sees that person who was killed and maybe gives the person 20 or 30 years in jail as punishment for their crime. But that human judge doesn't see the full effect of that person's actions. The human judge can't see the daily tears that person's family and friends cried, the pain they suffered for years because their loved one was needlessly taken away, the ways the lives of so many people were altered off course because of that murder, the future spouse that person was supposed to marry, the kids they were to have, so many things. Our actions affect all of history. That is the same case for how we alter people's lives with bullying or any other selfish sin that we commit when we disobey God's commandments and choose to go against His infinite wisdom about what is right and proper for order in the universe. God sees the full effect of all of our actions far beyond what affect we can see. God isn't punishing eternally because our sins have small effect. It is because our sins have far greater and more serious effects than we realize. We will see and understand the full effect of our actions in the day of judgment when our lives are reviewed. We will see the full affect and pain that our greatest moments of pleasure in sin caused at the expense of others and we will truly regret it. Everyone is going to see that God is just and that if we are sentenced to hell it is indeed our own fault and we deserved it. No one will come out the judgement saying or believing God was unfair. We are going to give an account to Him of our actions. Back and forth dialogue where He will question us and our motives and show us the full effect of our deeds and why we were so wrong to not trust Him and do what is right."

I actually find this to be really convincing for ECT than any other arguments I've read. The premise is that our sins, while finite, have infinite consequences. That eventually our sins will lead to us denying eternal life for someone, thus we deserve eternal punishment. The commenter also says God's sense of 'justice' isn't rehabilition or correction, but instead involves making the sinner feel the pain and suffering they have brought upon others. And because our sins in that argument has infinite consequences, the pain and suffering we will suffer is infinite.

For obvious reasons I find this to be totally horrid, but I can't shake the feeling that this argument operates really well on logic.

Edit: Format

Algeria in the 90s had a civil war involving militant fundamentalism. Though it hadn't been a French colony for a while, there were still many French people living in Algeria, whom the government encouraged to leave Algeria for their own safety. There was a Trappist monastery near a Muslim village where some monks decided to remain despite the danger, because it was their home and they were very close with their cherished neighbors (who loved them too).

Ultimately, seven of these monks were kidnapped and killed violently (I won't share the details here out of respect for those who may be sensitive to such things). The monastery's superior was among them, Father Christian de Chergé. He had sent a letter to his family to be read if he died, shared here without further comment:

If it should happen one day—and it could be today—that I become a victim of the terrorism which now seems ready to encompass all the foreigners living in Algeria, I would like my community, my Church, my family, to remember that my life was given to God and to this country. I ask them to accept that the One Master of all life was not a stranger to this brutal departure. I ask them to pray for me: for how could I be found worthy of such an offering? I ask them to be able to associate such a death with the many other deaths that were just as violent, but forgotten through indifference and anonymity.

My life has no more value than any other. Nor any less value. In any case, it has not the innocence of childhood. I have lived long enough to know that I share in the evil which seems, alas, to prevail in the world, even in that which would strike me blindly. I should like, when the time comes, to have a clear space which would allow me to beg forgiveness of God and of all my fellow human beings, and at the same time to forgive with all my heart the one who would strike me down.

I could not desire such a death. It seems to me important to state this. I do not see, in fact, how I could rejoice if this people I love were to be accused indiscriminately of my murder. It would be to pay too dearly for what will, perhaps, be called “the grace of martyrdom,” to owe it to an Algerian, whoever he may be, especially if he says he is acting in fidelity to what he believes to be Islam. I know the scorn with which Algerians as a whole can be regarded. I know also the caricature of Islam which a certain kind of Islamism encourages. It is too easy to give oneself a good conscience by identifying this religious way with the fundamentalist ideologies of the extremists. For me, Algeria and Islam are something different; they are a body and a soul. I have proclaimed this often enough, I believe, in the sure knowledge of what I have received in Algeria, in the respect of believing Muslims—finding there so often that true strand of the Gospel I learned at my mother’s knee, my very first Church.

My death, clearly, will appear to justify those who hastily judged me naive or idealistic: “Let him tell us now what he thinks of it!” But these people must realize that my most avid curiosity will then be satisfied. This is what I shall be able to do, if God wills—immerse my gaze in that of the Father, to contemplate with him his children of Islam just as he sees them, all shining with the glory of Christ, the fruit of his Passion, filled with the Gift of the Spirit, whose secret joy will always be to establish communion and to refashion the likeness, delighting in the differences.

For this life given up, totally mine and totally theirs, I thank God who seems to have wished it entirely for the sake of that joy in everything and in spite of everything. In this “thank you,” which is said for everything in my life from now on, I certainly include you, friends of yesterday and today, and you my friends of this place, along with my mother and father, my brothers and sisters and their families—the hundredfold granted as was promised!

And you also, the friend of my final moment, who would not be aware of what you were doing. Yes, for you also I wish this “thank you”—and this *adieu—*to commend you to the God whose face I see in yours.

And may we find each other, happy “good thieves,” in Paradise, if it pleases God, the Father of us both. Amen.

Final note: If you're interested, there is a book about this monastery and these events called Monks of the Tibhirine: Faith, Love, and Terror in Algeria.

The accuser (Satan) spreading the lie that hell is eternal damnation and separation from god as a tactic to alienate people who would believe otherwise if hell didn’t exist? Or plant fear into hearts of scrupulous believers? Or even to plant seeds of judgement in believers, judging other people for sexual orientation or sins and mistakes they’ve committed in life? Idk my experience with god is he will take extreme measures to show people the truth and actually rather than forcing them to change, let them come to the truth that they are living in sin separated from god in this life? Idk just speaking from experience, when I fully believed I was going to hell I lost hope, but climbed onto god harder than ever before but at the same time was convinced he was an uncaring alienated god who really didn’t care for us, as I was a kid when I committed my worst sin of doing drugs and almost dying. But god showed me the truth as to how depressed I was, how dark my mind was, and what I was capable of. I believe god changes all the way he changed me. Sorry I know this post is a jumble but I’m on break at work TLDR the accuser (Satan) planted the lie of hell being eternal separation of god to make humans associate themselves with demons and fallen angels rather than saints, angels, and Christ

I am not Christian (though I used to be Catholic), but I recently learned that according to Catholicism, the state people die in is the state they remain in for eternity, and it really scares me. What frightens me isn't so much the possibility of going to hell, but the idea of going to heaven and never being able to make decisions or grow—only stagnating. People change throughout their entire lives. I am different now than I was as a child, different than I was as a teenager, and I will be different as I grow older. I am sure I would continue to change if I didn't die. The thought of being cut off from change and free will in heaven feels terrifying to me.

I understand that, according to Universalism, people are changed before going to heaven (for example, through refining fires), or in purgatory according to Catholicism. But after that, are they just the same, unchanging beings forever?

I realize this might just be the Catholic perspective, and I don't know how many traditions share this view. I am simply curious.

John 16:11

and of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Matthew 8:29

And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

One of my best friend's birthday is coming up in December, he's an amazing guy and Christian but unfortunately he's a staunch infernalist. I don't expect I'll fully "convert" him as it were, but I'd like to give him some food for thought. Unfortunately I haven't the time to read both of these books and I can't afford multiple copies, so could someone please tell me which you like better and what would be more convincing for him? Thanks in advance.

As oxymoronic as it may seem, the belief that God will benevolently bring all people to repentance and obedience to his loving purpose eschatologically, fits naturally with the view that nations should submit to God’s law and govern in accordance with the principles of Christ here and now.

It should be kept in mind that Christian universalism is nothing like the watered-down message of soft sentimentalism that some presume it to be. In reality, it’s the declaration of God’s total divine victory; the assurance that Christ’s total retaking of the world will be ultimately successful. As the benevolent King and risen Lord, Christ effectively defeats sin and death, relentlessly reclaiming all that is rightfully his, restoring all the nations in so doing (see Matt. 28:19-20, Rom. 11:25-26, Rev. 5:9, 21:24-26).

All of this comports perfectly with the goal of reinstating Christendom (i.e. Christian nationalism), bringing heaven to earth to the best of our ability, in our respective cultures, institutions, and daily lives.

But of course this whole discussion depends on how the term “nationalism” (as well as “universalism”) is being defined, and thus there’s plenty of room for debate.

Would love to hear any thoughts on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDILzK4wzoY

Sam Shamoun said Universalism and Annihilationism weren’t even present in the early churches.

He seems to really know his stuff. He’s Assyrian, a former Calvinist, and is currently a Catholic.

Thoughts, anyone?

Pretty much I’m just thinking about why God wanted the Canaanite children and women killed, and all of the other situations in the Old Testament like that. I’m just wondering… why would he do that? Did he see something down the line in their lineage that he needed to put a stop to, so he had them killed and ultimately reconciled to him in heaven? Idk, any help would be awesome

So, I've been something of a Christian Universalist for about a year now, and I recently stumbled this comment and was wondering how a good Universalist should respond?

Just a good article I thought I would share.

https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/the-severity-of-universal-salvation/

So I’m Orthodox. I’ve been a proud Easterner for years, and I love so much about it.

One thing I really love is that of all the denominations universalism has legitimate validity in Orthodoxy. The Church - even infernalists - doesn’t believe in standard hellfire and brimstone. It because heaven and hell are the exact same place, just people experience them differently.

As I listen to my priest and my former priest talk, I realise how close they are to “putting the dots together.” Bout universalism.

Almost every devout orthodox I know seems just a hairs breath away from figuring it out. But they don’t. It’s not even I think they are truly opposed to it on principle either.

I find ETC being the “default” seems to affect a lot of clergy and laity. Has anyone else run into this issue?

Like it’s less a strictly theological issue, and more a “that’s what everyone believes. It’s mainstream so therefore true.”

Like my old priest helped talk me into universalism by trying to talk me out of it lol

Has anyone else experienced this struggle, where it’s not about convincing people that the theology is right. But that they just need to stop going default?

Hi Everyone,

I've thought this a few times, and wanted to put it out there . . .

There's a small part of me that's starting to feel like having concerns about the afterlife is straight up juvenile. I can't quite but my finger on it, but it almost seems like it's just extreme immaturity (on my part). Meaning . . . I didn't have any control over whether or not I came into existence, so what makes me think I have any control over what happens to me or where I go after I die. Moreover, who am I to question God about what should or shouldn't happen to me after I die. It seems like He's the most capable to make that decision.

I write this as someone who from a very young age has had anxiety about going to hell, or having committed the unforgivable sin.

Any comments or perspective is welcome.

Does anyone have any good sermons, messages or channels they'd like to share? Specifically about Jesus if possible, thanks.

Any help with this verse? I’m overthinking it a lot and I’m not sure how it ties into Universal Salvation