Is Jesus eternal God same as God the Father, as Protestantism teaches or he just shared some of the divinity of God the Father and had to achive Goodhood the same as other gods before him?

When I do proxy baptisms at the temple, I usually get briefs under my one-piece under my jumpsuit. Well, they did away with the Hanes or Fruit of the Loom briefs. Now, they have white, slick flyless boxer briefs. I am thinking they are unisex. Can anyone confirm?

I feel like a lot of Christ's mission and purpose was about giving "glory to the father."

And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. John 8:50-51

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.John 6:38

And we're taught that there were 2 plans: One where Satan was the savior and got the glory, and another where Christ was the savior and gave the glory to God.

1. Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. - Moses 4

It makes sense why the rest of the Christian world would worship Jesus Christ, they believe that he and God are one person. But we don't believe that

So why do we put so much focus on Christ? If his entire mission and purpose is to give the glory to the father, why do we worship Christ and name ourselves after Christ and try to be like Christ? I rarely ever hear about God as a separate entity unless it is in the context of Christ being there as well, is there a reason that this changed?

https://www.reddit.com/r/A24Heretic

I’m not a religious guy I’ll admit. But I’m interested in the prepping and homesteading aspects that I see some mormons practicing.

In my country there aren’t any preppers except for Mormons.

Would it be weird to try to make some mormon friends as someone who believes in God but not in any formal religion? Or would I be rejected?

I am personally not religious, but I like to study religions. Especially new religious movements, including Christian restorationist sects. I find it very interesting that Mormons/LDS testify that they KNOW their religion is true, that they KNOW Joseph Smith is a true prophet, and that they KNOW the Book of Mormon is true. This is unique among Christian sects, where most say they BELIEVE. When and why did this tradition become entrenched in Mormonism? How do members feel about this? Or do they not notice this difference? Thanks for your answers!

I saw quote on Reddit before that was financial advice maybe from the 1980s? It was talking about not worrying about investments like stocks, but to worry about food storage or something like that. I know that’s rather vague, but I’m hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

1984 quote The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.'' And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed--if all records told the same tale--then the lie passed into history and became truth.''

Why do so many members of the church go long with the constant gaslighting by the LDS regime leaders?

The church's own manuals and canon (Joseph Smith History) don't match what is taught from the pulpit or on YouTube videos.

The YouTube video of president Nelson explaining the rock in the hat narrative is in direct contradiction to what is said in the Joseph Smith translation in the pearl of great price.

But you can't say this out loud to an active member and not get blank looks or some complicated mental-twisting explanation.

I love my fellow members but they can't be taken seriously when they speak about important things if they won't be honest with themselves and demand better of their leaders.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean or cruel...just meet me halfway. Good relationships are built on honesty.

And did your experience in the Mormon church meet that objective?

Hello,

Non-Mormon here looking for some clarification. As I understand Joseph Smith allegedly translated the BOM through a hat with something called seer stones. What is meant by seer stones? Also, I remember seeing some Mormon literature a few decades ago about gold plates. Was Joseph Smith looking at the plates through the hat and stones? It is a little confusing. Thanks in advance for any answers.

I’ve always wondered this. Is it bad to wear a jacket or blazer if you’re mormon?

I've noticed as I've gone "church shopping" that people say Holy Spirit a lot more than Holy Ghost or even "the Spirit". Why do you think that is? Could it have been a personal Joseph Smith or Brigham Young thing?

Hi, we are not Mormon and we do not plan to convert. My spouse however has been welcoming missionaries into our home every other week to chat/discuss. I’m sure they are hopeful they will convert us but we are firm in our beliefs. How do we let them know? Or should we just continue to host them since it’s not bothering us?

Hello! Has anyone heard any updates about the Victoria BC temple?

Let me start with a background. I'm from a calvinist reformed background. I have an MDiv from a fancy seminary and I am very much a devout Presbyteryian. All this to say, I'm pretty smart and well versed in history, religion, and ancient biblical languages.

I've never been part of the mormon religion but I've always been fond of LDS members. I had friends in high school and college and i just liked them as people. Also, I find the historic and cultural impacts of the church to be facinating.

Honestly, no bad blood at all over here towards the LDS. At the same time, 0% chance of me converting. Then I go an read the book. And now I have thoughts and opinions and like no one in real life that cares. It wasn't so much a spiritual experience for me as an interesting dive into the mind of Joseph Smith. This was like big brained fantasy writing well before lord of the rings and I kinda liked it?

Like this is a question for ONLY mormons. Do you guys say bad words/swear or think of them? Like I know most people do it, but do yo do it?

Hi, i'm a former mormon, not here to create any controversy or anything but I'm really curious what this symbol means! I saw it on a old book listed on facebook and I can't find the meaning

https://preview.redd.it/8u1mrrs9cdyd1.png?width=266&format=png&auto=webp&s=2e47fdbe32345307654e67211a6b37dd0df839e4

The Economy of Human Life,Translated from an Indian Manuscript, Written by an Ancient Bramin. To which is Prefixed, an Account of the Manner in which the Said Manuscript was Discovered: in a Letter from an English Gentleman, Residing in China, to the Earl of *******. With Thirty-two Elegant Cuts by A. Anderson

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Economy_of_Human_Life/8NkMAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

Single men ages 40 and older now allowed to serve full-time missions; roles for single women 40 and older increased

https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2024/11/01/expanded-senior-full-time-missionaries-men-women-age-40-older/

I'm glad for this policy change.

Feeling down today after ending my relationship with my Mormon boyfriend, whom I truly love. I’ve recently become a Christian after a journey from atheism. My boyfriend introduced me to Mormonism at this time as well, I was also studying the Bible on my own. I was open to learning, but over time, I felt a stronger conviction in my Christian beliefs.

He has strong goals within his faith, like getting married in a Mormon temple and eventually going on a mission, and he hoped I’d consider becoming Mormon one day. As much as I care about him, I realized I can’t support those goals and stay true to my own beliefs. It’s especially hard because I could see he was struggling with his faith, not following the church's commandments even though he was attending services and institute classes. I got the sense he might be feeling lost and maybe even hurting, but I’m not sure if he realized it.

I made the decision to end things, thinking it might help him be open to finding his own path and also protect my own faith journey. I pray every day that he’ll find peace and clarity.

Has anyone been in a similar situation, or does anyone have advice on navigating this? Or insight into how he may be feeling or understanding my decision? And if anyone has insight into why it can be so hard for Mormons to leave even when they have doubts, I’d really appreciate it.

So I'm a non mormon and I asked out one of the missionaries the other day and idk if it just went over her head or if she just really politely turned me down lol but like is there a specific thing I'm missing? Not hating or pouty just curious because we'll I'm not mormon lol

Earlier this week I asked for advice on how to tell my in-laws that I'm PIMO (Physically-In, Mentally-Out). Y'all recommended I shouldn't, and then after that only share what I need to. I can't get into too many details of the conversation, but I will say this:

Y'all were right, but not for the reasons I expected. They picked up quickly in the conversation that I might be PIMO, and before I even brought it up fully said it was my choice to stay or leave the LDS church, and that they don't want to put any pressure on that choice. I need to figure out what works for me. All they asked was to just tell them first before going public only so that they can be ready if anyone asks them questions.

We're going to talk more later, but honestly the fact that they led with that without hesitation was a godsend. And... y'all were right. People in healthy relationships don't necessarily need the details. They just need to know how to support you, and need your unconditional support back. I'm so happy I got lucky here.

Is anyone aware of when the earliest persecution of Joseph and/or the church started showing up in the historical record?

Joseph Smith-History indicates that persecution started with his alleged retelling of the First Vision immediately after it supposedly happened. Just like there is no reference to the alleged First Vision until 12+ years later, I'm having trouble finding any references to persecution in the 1820s that don't rely on Joseph's late 1838 history. Even Lucy Mack Smith's history draft didn't mention it (so far as I could find).

I've found "persecution" related to his treasure digging (which I wouldn't consider persecution, but rather disdain for fraudulent, illegal activity), but when did the true religious persecution show up in records? Was it around the time the saints moved to Ohio?

Reference to the order of creation as outlined in the temple and LDS materials: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/friend/2007/02/for-little-friends/the-creation?lang=eng

I've heard people say that God used events and phenomena such as the Big Bang and evolution to create the world, and that 7 days are really just 7 long periods of perhaps millions of years of creation. But that still doesn't work, because evolution is a process of mutational change that favors passing on genes that are favorable to the environmental pressures a species faces.

Day 3: God creates the water and plants. Exactly how is God using evolution as a tool to create the vast diversity of plants we see in the world today, without the pressures of the sun (day 4), birds to disperse seeds (day 5), and other animal life such as insects that feed on and pollinate plant life (day 6)?

Let's suppose plants are given 50 million years for God to tinker with through evolution before He introduces the sun. Um, how? Plants require the sun's rays. And then after introducing the sun, he finally introduces pollinators? Again, only someone with a complete ignorance of evolution could possibly see evolution in isolation - evolution requires comingling - plants and animals evolve together.

Just take the third day's description as an example of its ignorance of evolution:

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Each type of plant has seeds? I suppose all of them were wind-pollinated, since other pollination types were impossible? Well, what is fruit doing here? How would fruit exist through evolution when the primary reason for fruit to exist is to propogate genetics through enticement of animals that would eat and store said fruit? Without squirrels or blue jays, how would plants evolve to have acorns? Notice how God didn't use this period to create a single-celled plant organism, and then move on to the next period. No. Before the sun even enters the earth's atmosphere or animal life comes onto the scene, God has trees and various types of grasses (which didn't thrive on the earth until after several eras of evolutionary animal pressures).

Ben Spackman (contributor to FAIR) really tries to comprehensively cover the church's position and reconcile science and scripture, but he does so by simply sidestepping any interpretation (literal or otherwise) of any of the creation account except that Adam and Eve existed as people.

TL;DR: Apologists try to circumvent a young earth claim made in scriptures like D&C 77 and Genesis, by saying that the creation "days" could have represented creation "periods" of millions of years, asserting that evolution and religious stories of creation are wholly compatible. But apologists have to also consider the order of the periods and reconcile them with empirical evidence about how we have come to the vast diversity of life we see on earth today. The mere separating of tasks into periods in a timeline is incompatible with evolution, since plants, animals, light, water, etc., all factors of a grand co-evolutionary process that results in what we have today.

*This got a little long, so feel free to just read the headings and conclusions if you don't want all the details

Old Testament (Hebrew Bible): implicit approval of polygamy with a few clear exceptions. Does not command polygamy.

The lds gospel topics essay on Joseph's polygamy claims that "[i]n biblical times, the Lord commanded some of His people to practice plural marriage..." While many (about 30) of the Old Testament prophets or characters were polygamists, I will consider here those who were mentioned explicitly in the gospel topics essay (Abraham, David, Solomon, and Moses) in addition to verses that address polygamy directly:

Abraham (Abram):

• Abraham was told by the Lord that he would "make [his] seed as the dust of the earth..." (Genesis 13:16). This promise--reiterated to him and his wife Sarah (Sarai) by the Lord many times--obviously started to weigh on Sarah as she continued to age without bearing any children, because she told Abraham to "...go in unto [her] maid; it may be that [she] obtain[s] children by her" and Sarah "... gave [Hagar] to her husband Abraham to be his wife." (Genesis 16: 1-3). Abraham did so and fathered Ishmael with Hagar. Even though he had a child with Hagar, Abraham did not refer to her as his wife (calling her "maid" instead) and never mentioned a marriage ceremony of any sort. (Genesis 16:6).
• When Abraham was nearly 100, he was visited by the Lord and again promised he would be the father of nations and that Sarah, who was 90, would bear him a son. (Genesis 17). About 15 years after Sarah had told Abraham to have a child with Hagar, she was pregnant with Isaac, fulfilling the Lord's promises. (Genesis 21).
• After Sarah died, Abraham married his last wife, Keturah. (Genesis 25:1).

While it is unclear if Abraham was ever actually married to Hagar, it is clear that it was Sarah who told him to initiate sexual relations with her. God maintained--despite Sarah and Abraham's incredulity--that it was Sarah who would be pregnant, but he also did not condemn Abraham's relations with Hagar. Abraham's marriage with Ketubah had no overlap with his marriage with Sarah.

David:

• David had ten wives or concubines outside of Bathsheba and Michal. (2 Sam. 5:13; 1 Chron. 3:1–9; 14:3). The prophet Nathan explained that some of these wives were given to David by the Lord when he said "And I [the Lord] gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom..." (2 Sam. 12:7-8). Nathan went on to condemn David for what he did to Uriah and his wife Bathsheba, saying "Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon." (2 Sam. 12:9).

God gave David the prior wives of Saul. There was no command for David to enter into polygamy, but it does seem like God was involved. God condemned David's act of sending Uriah off to war to die while taking his wife Bathsheba as his own as evil.

Solomon:

• Solomon had over 700 wives and 300 concubines. (1 Kings 3:1; 7:8; 11:1–7). These wives "turned away his heart after other Gods" and the Lord eventually threatened to "rend the kingdom from [Solomon}..." (1 Kings 11:1-11).

Solomon's many wives and concubines led him to sin (turning his heart from God), but his relationships with them were not explicitly denounced as sin.

Moses:

While the gospel topics essay refers to Moses as a polygamist--relying on the language in D&C 132--it is unclear if Moses was married to anyone other than his first wife Zipporah. (Exodus 2).

Other polygamists:

The Old Testament shows, of the over 30 other polygamists mentioned in it, a general trend of disapproval of polygamous relationships because all of them end in conflict of some sort. This can be seen with Abraham and the conflict between Sarah and Hagar, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and the conflict between the sisters Rachel and Leah and their servants and the conflict between the brothers and Joseph, Elkinah and the conflict between Hannah and Peninnah, David and his multiple marriages which led to conflict with Saul, with his own advisors and soldiers, and conflict between his children including rape and murder, which would be magnified by his son and eventually led to the split of his kingdom. As an object lesson, these stories show that polygamy does not lead to peace or success.

General Old Testament teachings on polygamy:

• The norm God implicitly established through the creation is a man cleaving to a woman as one flesh (Genesis 2:24).
• God gives implicit approval for a man to take another wife if he does not diminish "her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage." (Exodus 21:10).
• God explicitly commands that men do not have intimate relations with their daughter-in-law, with both a woman and her daughter, with sisters, or with their "neighbors wife." (Leviticus 18:15-20; 20:10-12).
  • "if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire..." (Leviticus 20:14).
• God commanded that his followers should not "multiply wives to [themselves], that [their] heart[s] turn not away..." (Deuteronomy 17:17).
• God gives implicit approval for a man to have two wives by saying "If a man have two wives..." (Deuteronomy 21:15).
• Explicit requirement for a brother to marry his dead brother's wife after he dies. (Deuteronomy 25:6). Done away with in 1 Cor. 7:39).

What does the Old Testament tell us about polygamy:

1. In general, it has bad results, but is not condemned by God.
2. God has given wives to at least one prophet.
3. All the polygamists took more wives of their own accord, meaning God did not command any of them to practice polygamy.
4. Nobody should marry their daughter-in-law, a mother-daughter pair, sisters, or another's wife.

New Testament: implicit disapproval of polygamy with a few denunciations. Does not command polygamy.

The New Testament has no clear polygamists.

General New Testament teachings on polygamy:

• If a woman is married to another man while her husband is still alive, she is an adulteress. (Romans 7:3).
• A man should cleave to his wife and be one flesh. (Mark 10:8; Matthew 19:5; Ephesians 5:31).
• While it is best "[f]or a man not to touch a woman," "to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband." (1 Corinthians 7:1-2).
• An elder must be "[f]aithful to his wife..." (1 Titus 1:6).
• A bishop should be "the husband of one wife" (1 Timothy 3:2).

What does the New Testament tell us about polygamy:

1. It is sin for a married woman to marry another man.
2. Religious men should be faithful to and/or have and cleave to only one wife.

Book of Mormon: explicit disapproval of polygamy with a single exception. Does not command polygamy.

The Book of Mormon has no clear polygamists.

General Book of Mormon teachings on polygamy:

• David and Solomon having many wives and concubines is "abominable" to God, and he will not suffer his people to do what David and Solomon did in the past. (Jacob 2:24-26).
• Explicitly commands that men have only one wife and no concubines except when God commands his people to do so to raise up seed (Jacob 2:27-30).

What does the Book of Mormon tell us about polygamy:

1. God finds polygamy to be abominable.
2. Polygamy can only be practiced by direct commandment and for the purpose of having children.

Doctrine and Covenants: explicit disapproval AND explicit approval of polygamy, subject to exceptions.

Many polygamists in the early church. Only Joseph Smith's polygamy will be covered in detail below.

General Doctrine and Covenants teachings on polygamy:

• Men should cleave unto their wives "and none else." (D&C 42:22).
• The church declared "that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is as liberty to marry again." (D&C 101:4)
  • this passage was in the D&C from 1835 to 1876 and subsequently removed.
• After Joseph "inquired of [God's] hand" to know of polygamy, he was told that God had commanded Abraham, David, Solomon, and Moses to practice polygamy and that "in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of [God]." (D&C 132:1, 34-38).
• Joseph was commanded to "receive and obey" the doctrines and principles of polygamy as they were revealed to him and was told that, if he did not obey, he would be damned. (D&C 132:3-4, 33).
• God commanded Sarah to give give Hagar to Abraham as his wife, and--because the Lord commanded it--he did not condemn Abraham for it. (D&C 132: 34).
• David only sinned in sending Uriah to die and taking Bathsheba as his wife." (D&C 132:39).
• A woman who is with a man while she is married to another is an adulteress and will be destroyed (D&C 132:41-43, 63).
• Emma must be destroyed if she has relations with anyone other than Joseph. (D&C 132:54).
• According to "the law of the priesthood," if a man marries a virgin, he can marry another woman and not be adulterous as long as she is a virgin, she is not married to another man, and the first wife gives her consent. However, if the first wife does not give her consent, "she then becomes the transgressor" and the man no longer needs her permission to marry another. (D&C 132:61, 65).
• Women who are taught about the law of polygamy by their husbands and do not "believe and administer unto [them]" will be destroyed. (D&C 132:64).

What do the Doctrine and Covenants tell us about polygamy:

1. Conflicting views on whether a man should have one wife or several.
2. Conflicting views on whether a man or woman should remarry only in the case of death.
3. God COMMANDED Joseph to enter into polygamy by threatening damnation, as he did Abraham, David, Solomon, and Moses (Conflicts with Old Testament teachings).
4. Those prophets who entered into polygamy did not sin in it, because they were commanded by God. (Conflicts with Old Testament and Book of Mormon).
5. It is a sin to send a husband away and marry his wife while they are still married.
6. A woman engages in adultery and will be destroyed if she has relations with a man while she is married to another.
7. Law of Sarah - A married man can marry another woman without it being adulterous if (1) she is a virgin, (2) she is not married, and (3) the first wife gives her consent. (Conflicts with New Testament and Book of Mormon)
   1. However, if the first wife does not give her consent, she is sinning, and the husband can go forward without her permission to be married to another woman.
8. Married women who are taught about the law of polygamy by their husbands but do not believe and follow it will be destroyed.

Is Joseph's polygamy justified by these scriptural teachings?

No, it is not. With just the following two details, Joseph's polygamy practices violated scriptural polygamy requirements from all four sources:

1. Out of his (at least) 33 wives, 11 of them were already married (In Sacred Loneliness p. 15).
2. Joseph did not have ANY children from him polygamous relationships that have been confirmed.

Although those two facts are all that is needed to show there is no scriptural justification for Joseph's polygamy, his practices violated many additional scriptural and moral standards:

• He claims God commanded him to enter into polygamy (god sends an angel with a flaming sword to threaten Joseph with destruction if he does not live the law of polygamy "fully")
• He married a mother-daughter pair (ex. Patty Bartlett Sessions and Sylvia Sessions Lyon, In Sacred Loneliness p. 4-8).
• He married several sister pairs (ex. Huntingtons, Partridges, Johnsons, Lawrences, In Sacred Loneliness p. 4-8).
• He sent at least one man away on a mission while he married his wife (ex. Orson and Marinda Hyde), and sent another man away while he married his daughter (ex. Lucy Walker).
• Joseph did not follow the Law of Sarah as laid out in D&C 132 because he was married to approximately 25 women (married 11 in 1842 and 14 during the first half of 1843) before Emma ever knew or could have given approval (Joseph did not confront her about polygamy until the second half of 1843 even though be began "experimenting" in the 1830s), and most of those women were not virgins as about half of them were married while marrying Joseph. (In Sacred Loneliness p. 4-8). 4 of his wives were also widows. Not only had Joseph married women without Emma's approval, but he had gotten sealed to them before he was ever sealed to Emma.
• The revelation he received in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants (even just within the Doctrine and Covenants) is contradictory. In the Book of Mormon, God says that polygamy and the actions of David and Solomon are abominable, but that changes in the Doctrine and Covenants to make them without sin. In the Doctrine and Covenants, it teaches that man should have one wife, and then later that man should have several.
• He had a habit of asking the women or girls to marry him after they had moved into his home. In some cases, he would even introduce them as his daughters before asking them to marry him (ex. Joseph introduced Lucy Walker as his daughter after he sent her father away (Lyman Omer Littlefield, Reminiscences of Latter-day Saints, p. 43–44)).
• He married girls as young as 14 (ex. Helen Mar Kimball)
• Joseph consistently lied about polygamy until he died by denying that that he was practicing it. In 1844 (after he was married to more than 25 women) he said "What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.” (Joseph Smith - LDS History of the Church 6:411). More denials here or here.
• Joseph promised EXALTATION to the families of his polygamous wives if the prospective wife would accept his proposal, and threatened that the "gates will be forever closed" if she were to reject him.
  • This is exchanging the celestial kingdom for sex, circumventing the necessity of the atonement, and incredibly manipulative in its threatening nature.

Conclusion

No scripture in any way supports the practice of polygamy as Joseph did it. His polygamy was manipulative, immoral, and without foundation even when looking at his own revelations. I see no way to justify or accept these awful practices as anything that could come from a loving God who cares for his daughters on the earth.

The thing is that in my country of residence, there are very few Mormons and I can't say anything about them, but in the media, they seem like very positive and kind guys who spend a lot of time with their families. How close to the truth is that?

Assume for a moment the church is not true, many of you probably already believe this. Joseph Smith was not a prophet. The Book of Mormon is not an ancient record. Priesthood restoration is not real.

If you were the one to choose if Mormonism were true, would you? That means the apologetic arguments are valid, we have priesthood authority here on earth, and God’s true church is the one headquartered in Salt Lake City.

What is your decision? Why or why not? What would you change or alter?