Just wondering if anyone out there can point me to where the church gets the teaching that Adam (Michael) was involved with Christ (Jehovah) as a creator of the Earth/universe? Obviously this is presented in the temple and has been talked about openly in various church articles, but I'm struggling to find any actual reference either historical or canonical.

Thanks!

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Thank you!

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Hi everyone. So some of you have asked about the book and about me. I suggest you watch an interview of me by Steven Pynakker of Mormon Book Reviews. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b0N6NQn8bs&t=1055s

For those who have read my new book, I would really appreciate a review on Amazon. Thanks a million!

My new book is still available for free on Kindle only today. For those who have read (at least some of) it, I would appreciate your writing a review on Amazon if you can find the time. Tx

My new book, "Obscure Mormon Doctrine," is now available for free in Kindle version on Amazon. I'd love to hear your feedback. It will be free for 2-3 more days.

​

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak you in light: and what you hear in the ear, that preach you on the housetops. (Matthew 10:26-27 – American King James Version).

​

In verse 26, Jesus exhorted his disciples not to fear those who were against them. What was covered/hid was the truth. In other words, there was no covered/hid truth that was not to be revealed/known.

​

In verse 27 we can see that Jesus specifies what has been said in verse 26, and the verse makes it clear that in verse 26 the truth is being spoken of. In verse 27 the darkness and the light form the contraposition of what is covered/hid and revealed/known; what is heard in the ear and preached on the housetops. Darkness is about what makes covered/hid, since when there is darkness, it cannot be seen. Whereas light is about what makes revealed/know, since light illuminates what was hid in darkness. So in verse 27 Jesus wants to say in other words: "The truth that I tell you in darkness, speak it in light". The last sentence basically says the same thing. What is spoken in the ear is spoken in secret, and in contrast, what is preached on the housetops is spoken in the open. The housetops are a relatively high point from where what is preached is well in the open, because the one preaching is on the "stage".

New sub dedicated to evidence in favor of the restored gospel r/mormonevidence

Are any Mormon prophecy fulfilled? https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracytheories/comments/jiqx2d/end_times_prophecies_collected_in_a_list_please/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb

I know that the scriptures teach that we will all stand before the judgement bar of the Lord at the last day, but we are also taught that the Twelve ancient apostles will judge the twelve tribes.

Where did the teaching originate that we will each have a one-on-one interview with Jesus at some point in the future? I hear things like this in General Conference, but I don’t know where it is in the scriptures.

Also, along a similar vein, where is the authoritative teaching that we made premortal covenants with God before coming to this earth? It makes sense, but it seems to be more of a logical conclusion than a definitive doctrinal statement.

I believe these things are true, and I’m curious to see the scriptural or prophetic basis for them.

I see many people confused and as a faithful member of the Church who seeks truth above all else and here is the truth. I see many people trying to completely ignore these verses and make their own doctrine. Sexual Immorality is wrong and should not be justified, I love people but when one of your brothers are being led astray you should help them out which I am trying to do.

Genesis 1:27–28

Old Testament

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 2:18, 24

Old Testament

18 ¶ And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Leviticus 18:22

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

Leviticus 20:13

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Matthew 19:5

New Testament

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Matthew 19:5

New Testament

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Romans 1:26-27

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1 Corinthians 11:11

New Testament

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

Ephesians 5:31

New Testament

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:2

Doctrine and Covenants

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

Docrine and Covenants 132

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.

43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a vow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.

44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.

46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.

47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will curse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.

48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father.

50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundred-fold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory.

58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.

59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.

66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

Moses 2:27–28

Pearl of Great Price

27 And I, God, created man in mine own image, in the image of mine Only Begotten created I him; male and female created I them.

28 And I, God, blessed them, and said unto them: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Moses 3:18, 21–24

Pearl of Great Price

18 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten, that it was not good that the man should be alone; wherefore, I will make an help meet for him.

21 And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof;

22 And the rib which I, the Lord God, had taken from man, made I a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one flesh.

Abraham 5:18

Pearl of Great Price

18 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

So, I was permanently banned from r/ latterdaysaints for daring to categorize "Saints" as historic fiction, despite the fact that the book's genre is literally such. "Saints" was brought up in a comment on a post asking for suggestions for serious historical research starting points. I responded to the comment, informing the author that a work of historical fiction is not the best source for research and was promptly banned.

When I inquired as to why, I was muted for 72 hours. After the 72 hour mute was up, I politely asked about my ban again. One of the mods responded to me, linking the following article, and saying that "common sense would indicate" that I deserved a ban.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/09/04/mormon-church-publishes/

When I pointed out the following quote from the article, I was muted once again.

"“Saints” is not for scholars or even sophisticated Mormons, said Patrick Mason, chair of Mormon studies at Claremont Graduate University. “This is for the person who has never picked up a book of church history or a volume of the Joseph Smith Papers Project — and is never going to."

Honestly, I find this kind of behavior from fellow members of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be outright appalling. Any thoughts?

I believe that he was declared as such around the time that the church was organized. But there were also claims to the patriarchal priesthood based on the contention that Joseph Smith was a literal descendent of Joseph sold into Egypt. So it's unclear to me I guess, when Joseph was made a prophet (from the believing perspective). Was this before the 1st vision? After the first vision? When he and Oliver baptized each other? When the church was organized? Other?

Sorry, not my area of expertise: Can someone please remind me where Christ is supposed to come per LDS theology? I remember a war in Jerusalem and Jesus coming there, but I also have a recollection that he was supposed to come to Missouri - that that was why the gathering was there (in the 1830s). Is there a correct answer, or are there teachings/prophecies for both?

Who would like to see the policy of the Second Manifesto revoked?

Has anyone used Slack before? I’ve created a new Slack group to discuss the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you’re interested, click on the link below to join! Since face-to-face contact is being limited in most areas because of corona virus, I thought this would be a fun way to discuss and share uplifting things that we’re studying and learning.

https://latter-day-saints.slack.com/join/shared_invite/zt-cmqyz4bn-EogDeKhf5WYnVUjvDFvxUg

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ezdknt/1984_doublespeak_in_2020_1830_bom_data_on_skin/

My seminary book mark says the world/Adam is 6,000 years old, it is very clear

The gospel topic essay say Native Americans are from east Asia over ten thousand years ago.

Which is doctrine and which is false?

No one talks about it but the people haven’t changed at church.

In this day when all around us men in positions of power and influence are being made to account for their cowardly abuse and harassment of women, I think it altogether appropriate to raise the issue of Joseph Smith’s proclivity in this regard.

In the last few years Comedians Bill Cosby and Louis C.K., as well as actors Jeremy Piven, and Kevin Spacey have been accused as well as producer Harvey Weinstein, NBC anchor Matt Lauer and the man who currently sits in the Oval Office.

Sexual harassment is hardly a new phenomenon, but the deluge of disturbing allegations of sexual assault and harassment by powerful, high-profile men has prompted an increasing number of brave women to come forward with their harrowing tales of sexual abuse and harassment declaring, "me too!"

We are all familiar with Lord Acton’s dictum that, “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” The one thing all of those above have in common is power. The power of their position, the power of their wealth, the power of their celebrity.

We have reports of Joseph Smith freely and openly bragged about his use of women. “He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this"

("Interview with William Law. March 30, 1887,"
Daily Tribune: Salt Lake City, July 31, 1887).

In 1827, Levi Lewis accused Smith of trying to seduce sixteen-year-old Eliza Winters and reports hearing Smith and Martin Harris say that, “adultery was no crime.”

In 1832, we find Eli Johnson “furious because he suspected Joseph of being intimate with his sister Nancy Marinda Johnson.” It was this issue that led to the tarring and feathering of Smith and his near castration.

A year later in 1833, Mrs. Alexander quoted Polly Beswick as saying: “It was commonly reported, Jo Smith said he had a revelation to lie with Vienna Jacques, who lived in his family. Polly told me, that Emma, Joseph’s wife told her that Joseph would get up in the middle of the night and go to Vienna’s bed. Polly said Emma would get out of humor, fret and scold and flounce in the harness. Jo would shut himself up in a room and pray for a revelation. When he came out, he would claim he had received one and state it to her and bring her around all right.”

“Mrs. Warner [sic] Alexander, Statement [1886], original in Stanley A. Kimball Papers,
Southern Illinois University; typescript in Linda King Newell Collection,
MS 447, Special Collections, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah.”

In that same year, 1833 Miss Hill, a servant in the Smith household claimed that Smith made indecent proposals to her, “which created quite a talk amongst the people,” and which Smith supposedly admitted to Martin Harris.

In 1933, Smith’s legal wife Emma witnessed Joseph ‘sealing’ the family’s 16-year-old maid in the barn. William E. McLellin tells us that Emma witnessed their actual copulation through a crack in the barn.

William McLellin,
Letter to Joseph Smith III, July 1872,
Community of Christ Archives

At some time before 1886, Sarah Pratt said that “Lucinda Harris who was a married lady, a very good friend of mine. When Joseph had made his dastardly attempt on me, I went to Mrs. Harris to unbosom my grief to her. To my utter astonishment, she said, laughing heartily:"

“How foolish you are! I don’t see anything so horrible in it. Why I am his mistress since four years!”

W[ilhem] Wyl [pseud. for Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal], Mormon Portraits:
A Study Based on Fact and Documents (Salt Lake City:
Tribune Printing and Publishing, 1886). 60.

Sarah Pratt. Sometime in late 1840 or early 1841 John C. Bennett, Joseph's friend reported that he told him that, “he was smitten by the "amiable and accomplished" Sarah Pratt and wanted her for one of his spiritual wives.” Sarah was at the time married to another man.

Smith told Sarah, "Sister Pratt, the Lord has given you to me as one of my spiritual wives. I have the blessings of Jacob granted me, as God granted holy men of old, and as I have long looked upon you with favor, and an earnest desire of connubial bliss, I hope you will not repulse or deny me."

To which Sarah replied, "And is that the great secret that I am not to utter, am I called upon to break the marriage covenant, and prove recreant to my lawful husband! I never will.” She added, "I care not for the blessings of Jacob. I have one good husband, and that is enough for me."

To which Smith replied, "Sister Pratt, I hope you will not expose me, for if I suffer, all must suffer; so do not expose me. Will you promise me that you will not do it?”

"I will ruin your reputation, remember that" (Bennett 1842a, 228-31)

In the fall of 1841, Melissa Schindle was staying with the widow Fuller, who had recently been married to a Mr. Warren, in the city of Nauvoo, tells us under oath that Joseph Smith came into the room where she was sleeping at about 10 o’clock at night, and after making a few remarks came to her bedside, and asked her if he could have the privilege of sleeping with her.

John C. Bennett, letter dated 27 June 1842, “Bennett’s Second and Third Letters,”
Sangamo Journal, Springfield, Ill., 15 July 1842.
Reproduced in Bennett’s History of the Saints: or, An Exposé of Joe Smith and Mormonism
(Boston: Leland & Whiting, 1842), 253–54.

In 1841 Catherine Fuller Warren also swears under oath that Smith got into bed with her without her invitation.

Ibid, p.14

Joseph secretly “slept” with young Emily Partridge according to her own testimony under oath and certainly, without Emma’s knowledge or consent, Emily testified that she “roomed” with Joseph while Emma was somewhere else in the house on the night of their ‘marriage.’

Mormon Enigma, p. 144

As well, according to Benjamin F. Johnson, living in Ramus, Illinois, on May 16, 1843, Joseph shared a room with Eliza, the “daughter of the late Bishop Partridge. “Again, without the knowledge or consent of Emma.

Mormon Enigma, p. 145

Emma discovered that sixteen‐year‐old Flora Woodworth was carrying a gold watch that Joseph had given her in August of 1843. Realizing the implications, Emma demanded that Flora give the watch back. Smith reprimanded her, but Emma refused to be quiet on the carriage ride home. William Clayton, Joseph’s secretary, that he had to employ “harsh measures” to stop her complaining. This raises the question, did Joseph physically abuse Emma.

An Intimate Chronicle, p. 118

While there could be more, we now know of a surety that he had at least ten teenage brides, two just 14 years-of-age:

Fanny Alger, 16
Sarah Ann Whitney, 17
Lucy Walker, 17
Flora Ann Woodworth, 16
Emily Dow Partridge, 19
Sarah Lawrence, 17
Maria Lawrence, 19
Helen Mar Kimball, 14
Melissa Lott, 19
Nancy M. Winchester, 14?

Did he have sex with these young girls?

Here’s what Helen Mar Kimball, just 14 confided to a close friend in Nauvoo about her marriage to Joseph Smith:

“I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.”

Any reasonable person knows that Helen meant it was sexual. As Jeremy Runnells puts it, “This is Warren Jeffs territory,” and had Joseph Smith conducted himself in this manner today, he would have rightfully been imprisoned as Jeffs has been.

The sexual nature of Joseph Smith’s polygamous relationships must be acknowledged as the LDS scripture repeatedly stress it:

“… for they are given unto him to multiply a replenish the earth and to bear the souls of men.”

FairMormon in trying to justify Smith's sexual relationships with 14-year-olds says, “Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages to young women may seem difficult to understand or explain today, but in his own time such age differences were not typically an obstacle to marriage.”

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy

FairMormon; please. ‘… Difficult to understand and explain today.’ Look at Warren Jeffs, the jury that put him away for life had little difficulty ‘understanding’ why, like Joseph Smith, Jeffs married very young girls. As the prosecution ‘explained,’ convincingly, it was all about SEX.

I am sorry but a 37-year-old man ‘marrying’ a 14-year-old girl was very rare and certainly viewed with a jaundiced eye in Illinois in the 1830s and 1840s and the church’s attempt to make it sound like young girls barely out of puberty marrying middle-aged men was commonplace is deceitfulness.

And let’s not forget it was also illegal.

The notion that it was common in 19th-century America for girls 12 to14-year-old girls to marry is a myth. Just go to your town hall and ask to see the marriage records of the 1800s and you will see how unusual it was. So unusual was it for a 37-year-old man to marry a 14-year-old girl, that as I show in my Letter to an Apostle www.lettertoanapostle.org by use of 1840 US Census data, this 37/14 cohort was likely the only such union in Illinois or New York that year.

I am not sure what point FairMormon, the church current cadre of apologists is trying to make by stating that, this child was instructed to marry the portly middle-aged Joseph Smith by her Dad.

"My father was the first to introduce it to me, which had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake. When he found (after the first outburst of displeasure for supposed injury) that I received it meekly."

Compton, Todd (December 1997), In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City: Signature Books.

Don't forget 'dad' was Heber C. Kimball, the same guy who made the statement, “I think no more of taking another wife than buying a cow.”

What a poor child.

What a Dad!

I decided to join the conversation. I hope I can bring questions, concerns, ideas, and maybe some inspiration. I'm looking forward to getting to know you all. By the way, I just became the 1000th subscriber. Perhaps it means something. Probably not.

One of the frequent arguments in favor of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was recently spoken by Tad Callister. He argued:

Where Did Joseph Get the Doctrine?

Even if Joseph had obtained historical facts from local libraries or community conversations—for which there is no substantiating evidence—the real issue still remains: Where did he get the deep and expansive doctrine taught in the Book of Mormon—much of which is contrary to the religious beliefs of his time?

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He is arguing that the Book of Mormon is full of unique doctrines that didn't exist. He also argued that Joseph was incapable of bringing forth these deep insights given his limited background and abilities.

Yet, there is absolutely nothing unique in the Book of Mormon that some preacher of philosopher had not already talked about prior to its publication.

Just because I see it that way, I am still open to new insights.

What say ye r/MormonDoctrine? What knowledge and insights do you have to the great and powerful and unique insights the Book of Mormon brought forth that did not already exist?

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And I would request that you don't just throw spaghetti to the wall. Please do your research to ensure that you have truly thought through and investigated what you are putting on the table. Thank you.

You can use this source to find old books and quotes in your research.

https://books.google.com/advanced_book_search

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Here is an article making the same argument.

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/what-unique-doctrines-did-the-lord-reveal-through-the-book-of-mormon

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Here is just one of its claims of unique doctrines in the Book of Mormon

The phrase “plan of salvation,” and other similar phrases found in the Book of Mormon, are not found in the Bible.

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Yet here is a book from 1799 which has already coined the phrase "Philsophy of the plan of salvation" Yes. They limited their statement to it not existing in the bible. But it didn't come out of thin air. The phrase already existed prior to the publication of the book of mormon.

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https://books.google.com/books?id=TPs2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PP5&dq=plan+of+salvation&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk_onSsY_lAhXWvJ4KHRlWDFwQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=plan%20of%20salvation&f=false

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I have had this conversation a few times and have yet to come up with a unique "Doctrine" in the Book of Mormon not already discussed somewhere else prior to its publication. But I would love to find one.

I am seriously interested in the answer to this question from a faithful TBM perspective. And for clarity, I am an active, unorthodox, heretic.

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The Book of Mormon is true, is one of the oft repeated truth claims of the church and its members.

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What must be true for that truth claim to also be true?

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That it is a literal story or real people at a real time and place?

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Or could it be a made up story about fictional people in an imaginary time and still be true?

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That it teaches 100% true and eternal doctrines?

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Or could it teach a false plan of salvation, but more accurate version was taught later on in the dispensation of the fulness of time but it is still true?

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What must be true for the Book of Mormon to still be true?