JRR Tolkien used Silme Nuquerna for situations where /s/ is spelled "c". Did he not then also use Esse Nuquerna for when /z/ is spelled "s"?

Is this correct/legible? I was worried about some of the spacing, alignment, sizes, and character choice. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Hi, everyone!

I am getting two Tengwar tattoos over my hands and forearms on the 9th, and wanted to check the transcription of them. I used Tecendil, as I'm a beginner transcriber, but I know it isn't always perfect, and as the artist will be rendering the image in his own style, I want to make sure he's aware of the importance of placement.

I have linked them in both Artano and Telcontar, as I sent both of these to the tattoo artist. He said that he thought Artano was better, but I'm still uncertain, as something about using the ring font to represent these particular characters feels a little... weird? What do you guys think? I also included the Telcontar script with capitals, as I think I prefer the look, though I know it's not necessary.

Artano 1 Artano 2 Telcontar 1 Telcontar 2

Thanks in advance for any help!

Hi! I went looking how to write the word dragonfly in Tengwar and got this. It appears there are two different words but I'm not sure what the difference is. Is the top one a transliteration of the word dragonfly and the second the word budhulug written in Tengwar? Are they both correct if I want to use the word dragonfly? Hope this question isn't too dumb but it's for a tattoo and therefore important to me! Thank you for answering this n00b's question.

https://preview.redd.it/80npnw36zzxd1.jpg?width=769&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=395d28adbe5adf3f1da8490f4631064bd03a915c

Transcription of the letter below if, like me, you still have a hard time reading:

Hello r/tengwar

I have been learning the English mode for the last week and become obsessed with writing like this. Thanks Tolkien!

A few questions for the community:

• Do you just omit apostrophes from contractions and possessives?
• Silmë Nuquerna with tehta: yes or no? I am obviously undecided.
• Do you have a favorite calligraphy pen? Tengwar has inspired me to get one.

Forgive my mistakes, I am still practicing.

-u/gnomn

https://youtu.be/VP6FaXWcTkA?si=b-mdpFOjnSjLvLOs

Isilya: Nancanë Elenion Cala,
(First Verse)
Mi huinë núra, yassë quildë súla,
Nancanë cala orta, ve huinë túra.
I cala ustuva, pilu estel,
Mal enderyassë, morgul caita mel.

(Chorus)
A Isilya, Hína Nyéreva,
Ana i calma, orta ar mahta.
As túrë morneva, nanquenta i món,
Mi huinë vanya, i cala nauva undómë.

(Second Verse)
Ter fanyar nyéreva, vanta as túrë,
Nairieryanen tanca, umbarya turë.
Tára i huinion liltalëo,
Turya i lómë, ehenta i calo.

(Chorus)
A Isilya, Hína Nyéreva,
Ana i calma, orta ar mahta.
As túrë morneva, nanquenta i món,
Mi huinë vanya, i cala nauva undómë.

(Bridge)
Ilya elen ya fifírëa,
Estel lantaina, i lómë tuluva.
As huinion melehta, tëa i nórë,
Mi ohta valaina, fairerya mornë.

(Chorus)
A Isilya, Hína Nyéreva,
Ana i calma, orta ar mahta.
As túrë morneva, nanquenta i món,
Mi huinë vanya, i cala nauva undómë.

(Outro)
Sí hosta amba, hossërya yala,
Mi omentië, i huinë ancala.
Ana i calmano, melehtalma tuia,
Isilya tura, ve estel quela.

https://preview.redd.it/gg7j8ejvrpxd1.png?width=2154&format=png&auto=webp&s=45259aa1bb41a15c69717337fade00aaa327bc8e

I am a fan of Tolkien's works, and today I tried to learn the four modes. I've more or less learned the consonant symbols and basic tehtar for Elvish, but I am confused by the English Mode and especially by the "carriers" for diphthongs. The only Tengwar resource I could find is the Tecendil Tengwar Handbook, and it didn't discuss this too much in detail.

\"Attempting to write Tengwar from memory. Corrections?\"

Heya,

Still confused about the use of ngwalme vs using nasalized ungwe in orthographic English. So for a word like "arranging"..... is the first ng written as numen ungwe (because they're prononuced separately) vs ngwalme or nasalized ungwe, and the second as ngwalme? I thought ngwalme was the "ng" sound where the g is somewhat silent?

Does someone have a good guide on which to use whenL

hiii! I would like to get a tattoo of the phrase from Aragorn 'I would have gone to the end' written in Tengwar; is it correct?"

We are all trying to process the material in Parma Eldalamberon 23 and figure out what it means for us going forward in terms of transcription practices, etc. One thing I noticed, tucked away at the end of the section on "Feanorian B" was a section labeled "Numerals". For me, this section changes the discussion about numbers in tengwar, which previously usually has gone something like this:

"Numbers in tengwar...now that's complicated. You can use the tengwar for enumerated lists, and there are several different systems JRRT seems to have tried, using repurposed/modified tengwar. You could use sarati numerals... Then there are "Christopher's numbers" (sometimes called "Christopher's idiosyncratic numerals)--those are all over the internet, but they are of questionable provenance, and possibly totally wrong. Come to think of it, probably the safest thing is to not use numbers at all."

Now we have several paragraphs from JRRT, with the numbers basically just as Christopher presented them, together with a notation that the Eldar used base 10, the Dwarves base 12, and Humans in Gondor base 10. Humans farther north (who presumably were more likely to deal with Dwarves) used both. Also the reading order is confirmed (smallest digit on the left) together with markings intended for clarification, and (added later) a table to help with base 12 conversions.

This alters the conversation about numbers for me in a couple ways. Here are my thoughts--I'm curious what others have to say on the topic, as I know there are plenty out there with a more detailed understanding of the other supporting documentation:

1. For me, this system can now be reasonably considered the first-choice numbering system for use with Tengwar. They are no longer "Christopher's idiosyncratic numbers". They are JRRT's numbers.

2. It seems reasonable that the default assumption when encountering these numerals should be that they are base 10. The exceptions would be any number that contains the A or B digit (and any other number in the same document), and any "in-universe" writing of Dwarvish origin. "In universe" writing from Northern men would (should) include indicators of base (dots below for 12, above for 10, I would still assume 10 if no dots). Currently Tecendil defaults to base 12. Perhaps consideration should be given to asking Arno if he would change this.

I know it’s not elvish but I heard someone here could help. I want to get “all that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost” in Tolkien’s dwarvish runes tattooed under a large tattoo I have based on his original Hobbit book artwork. Can someone help me transliterate this into Cirth or whatever runes are most “Tolkien”? Thanks?

One person in /lotr did this— accurate?

The mode that is commonly called "The Sindarin Mode" online, and that pedantic people like myself have come to call the "general use applied to Sindarin" (or something to this effect), has been well attested in almost every necessary detail through being used in DTS49, the last draft of the "King's Letter", and other smaller sources have given us additional detail, like the fact that it can be written in CV order, if desired, regardless of what Tolkien wrote in appendix E of the LotR concerning vowel order. Going forth I assume that you are familiar with the mode as we currently know it, or at least with other general use applications like English.

In PE23 we are treated to two texts (Feanorian B and Feanorian D) in which Tolkien explains in a lot of detail how the general use (that he there explains is the Numenian or Westron mode, that the elves of Eregion fashioned for the Dúnedain in the second age but also adopted themselves) is applied to Noldorin. Noldorin is of course the same thing as Sindarin - these texts just happen to have been written slightly before the change in terminology (between 1948 and 1951 - in the LotR in 1954 the name is of course Sindarin already).

Text B is in fact completely in line with DTS49 but gives us some fascinating additional information:

• While we still don't have an explicit attestation for au we may assume that it is indeed spelt with vala, since it is pointed out explicitely that úre is not used at all. However, Tolkien still notes that both diphthongs in -i and -e may be spelt out with the regular tehtar with the first being placed on a carrier (he gives the example https://www.tecendil.com/?q=%5Balda%5Do%27er), even though spelling with anna and yanta is considered 'usual' (even prevalent in the latter case), so this is of course ashtrays an option for au.
• Hwesta sindarinwa is indeed given for hw, though Tolkien notes that it is normally also used for chw (the expected hwesta with wa-tehta being seldom employed because of being 'rather awkward'). This might not have been true for many years after Tolkien had first written this paragraph, because the issue is hw vs. chw is one of the few phonological aspects in which Noldorin and Sindarin do differ, but as much later texts also published in PE23 show Tolkien may ultimately have settled on chw not existing in Sindarin at all, or at least not being distinguished in writing, so that either way hwesta sindarinwa is all we need.
• Surprisingly anna is not the only letter from series III to be used. Calma and anga can be used as alternatives to quesse and ungwe, in which case they're called cé and gé (as opposed to cá and gá, which might suggest they're preferably employed before front vowels, but Tolkien doesn't mention anything of the sort). Aha was even 'often' used as a variant of hyarmen (and was then called hé as opposed to há). Here anna is indeed called a variant of yanta, but it is pointed out that their use in the spelling of diphthongs is strictly distinguished.
• Where the Mode of Beleriand has the gasdil (where initial g is lost through mutation) vilya may be employed! Tolkien gives the example i'Olodh, which is mutated "i Golodh" (the Noldo), where I assume he forgot to place a dot over the carrier for the article. This makes a lot of sense, given that it has been suggested for decades that Tolkien may have meant for this letter to theoretically represent glottal stop or at least clear hiatus in Numenian mode.
• Since only one r phoneme exists no distinction between the two r-letters is phonologically needed. So by pure convention initially only rómen is found, and finally óre is usual, but everywhere else no distinction is made. So the conceived tendency of DTS49 to use rómen before consonants was pure coincidence and using óre between vowels in "aníra" wasn't a mistake.
• Tolkien notes that the cursive form of the tehta for a (three dots) is the circumflex (which was well established in appendix E), and that the tehta for y (two dots) also has a cursive form: the breve (which is <y> in orthographic English spelling).

I've tried to incorporate as many of these features into the graphic as possible.

• The application of a full writing variant of this mode to Noldorin is also explained, but this also is 100% in line with the earlier versions of the King's Letter and the only new info we get is that vala is indeed used for w (as shown by Tolkien spelling -aw as osse-vala) and that here too vilya can be used as gasdil.

Unfortunately, however, this isn't the last we get on the topic. Text D, which appears to have been written later, introduces instead a few details that deviate from both the earlier description and DTS49:

• The letters of series III may be used as variants of series IV, which would suggest, that aha is here a variant of hwesta instead.
• Using anna at all seems to be on option in text D, and if used it would also be seen in words like iâ, where DTS49 showed yanta being used. We do not know if yanta would then also be used for diphthongs in -i instead (with those in -e probably being spelt out).
• Hwesta sindarinwa is "not normally used" (see the complex situation described above). What else would then be used? Hwesta with wa-tehta, that Tolkien had earlier considered "awkward", or even hyarmen with wa-tehta (which I would consider even more awkward)? In this regard we may look at the mich later source suggested above, that gives only hwesta sindarinwa and nothing else).
• For me the greatest pity: Vilya is not anymore given for gasdil, but for mh, which was malta + hook in DTS49 and Feanorian B.

At the end of the day we cannot say what Tolkien would ultimately have considered true. I am very tempted to stick with the very elaborate and coherent system of DTS49 and Feanorian B, since it all fits together perfectly and covers every aspect we might wish for, while Feanorian D would not only robb us of a few nice options but even seems to contradict the use of anna and yanta seen in DTS49. We must not forget, however, that while that had been considered for publication Tolkien had ultimately decided against it.

So in the end it will be your choice if you go for the most elaborate and attested system or for the latest version we've got (which is only slightly less elaborate).

Hi! Sorry if this is kinda a stupid question, but I was wondering if there's a general consensus on how to use Silme (+Nuquerna) and Essë (+Nuquerna) in the English Orthographic mode? Or is it one of those things that kinda comes down to personal preference?

I personally use Silme for the unvoiced S (like in Start), Silme Nuquerna for C when it's pronounced as an S (like in Price), Essë for the voiced S (like in Has), and Essë Nuquerna for Z (like in Blaze). But I've also seen them used other ways, and I'm not sure if there's a "more correct" way to do it.

One other sorta unrelated question: How do you transcribe a double R before a vowel (like in Tomorrow)? Do you use Órë or Rómen? And if you use Rómen, where do you put the line? I just feel like it looks a little odd to put a line below it. TIA

I'm pretty sure it is used but Tecendil gives me a transcription with ára on default

https://preview.redd.it/jg6mayprp9xd1.png?width=993&format=png&auto=webp&s=4c7dae94616c054a709f2745a088f957f386b4f7

Really I just like to use thinnas to save space

https://preview.redd.it/imo78o1yv4xd1.png?width=850&format=png&auto=webp&s=97cae5da5dfea35233bf788e8b27110200c9bbd7

I appreciate this sub so much! If anyone could double check that this is correct but I also have a question about the fonts. I found a post (which I now can't seem to find) about a bunch of different fonts and who created them and when they were made, amazing post but I'm also just wondering if the different fonts are personal preference? From what I understand Tengwar is a writing system so as long as you are following the correct mode of writing, the style or font doesn't change the text in any way. Thank you!!

I can pick out bits like "the dark inside of us" and "what matters is the....to act on"

I just want to know like what this letter is what sound it makes when it was used like basically whatever. I have no idea what it is

https://preview.redd.it/z7vyieh5yiwd1.png?width=165&format=png&auto=webp&s=e1db8cf75c628ed5ad1a823bfbdf2274af44d0bf

Trying to combine my two favorite stories. I trust tecendil but if it’s going to be forever felt like I should get a second opinion.

"Dangerous" can be spelled with nwalme or without. The purely orthographic way to write it would be the former, but the "closer to phonetic intention" way, though still orthographically correct, would be the latter. This is because the "ge" forms the "j" sound, but you wouldn't use anga because it's a "ge" and not a "j"; and the "ge" begins a syllable, rather than having the "ng" as a single unit like at the end of "-ing" words.

Similarly, writing "contact" I could nasalize the n (ie, write the bar over the "t"), but, given that, again, it's a separate syllable, should I? I'm trying to develop a good feel for whether nasalization with a bar across syllables should (or shouldn't be) done.

And, finally, I have a question about anca. Where would I use this, if I'm writing othrographically? As a sound, it's present in words like "measure," "pleasure," "illusion," and "mirage". But, for example, this is how I'd write mirage, and this for measure, even though they're using the palatal voiced fricative sound. I searched for words with "zh" and Merriam-Webster gave me this list which, I'm reasonably sure some of the "zh"s on there aren't that sound, and, moreover, I'm almost fully certain I've never used any of those words ever in my life, and likely never will. lol

Are these stylistic choices I must make, or is there a general guideline to follow about this?

My plan was to have it Quenya, but as many have said it’s hard to get a correct transcription in Quenya.

I saw someone else post in here about their tattoo they just had done. My artist got free reign on design.

This is what I just had done.

im curious if arwen's line "I would rather share one lifetime with you, than face all the ages of this world alone" is well written in this tengwar text. can someone help? thank you.

Would someone be able tell me if this looks correct? I am wanting to get this tattooed and I am quadruple checking before I take the leap. Thank you!!

So I spent the last 8 days learning to write English in Tengwar and I think it went very well, though it was very confusing in some parts. I have some thoughts re the learning process, and I'd love to share them with the community, and get your input on them:

• First of all, this community was very welcoming and kind in asking questions, especially u/F_Karnstein, u/Ruleroftheblind, u/Thirdofmarch, and u/NachoFailconi so big thanks to all's ya'lls.
• Resource wise, the links at the top of the subreddit are decent and give ok overviews. But the thing that made learning Tengwar really straightforward was Chad Bornholdt's Tengwar Training video (and the accompanying spreadsheet) and I'd highly recommend linking those to the resource pin if possible.
  • Other resources talk about how Tolkein organized the Tengwar in a specific way but, unless you're very familiar with this kind of stuff (what is labiovelar; what is voiced vs unvoiced), people'll likely feel lost. I definitely was. I have never, in 20 years of speaking English as a second language, thought or have been taught about any of this. Watching the video and following along with the updated spreadsheet was like just having lightbulbs go off everywhere in terms of accessing, and, more importantly, understanding the Tengwar system. Yes, there's some stuff that you just have to memorize that doesn't follow the pattern, but, for the most part, once you understand the underlying principles, you're basically good to go.
• One of the more difficult things was getting used to the "there's four different ways to write this.... and they're all correct" thing that permeates a bunch of the teaching material. Especially coming from a physics background where there's just one answer. As a beginner, when I have a question, it's pretty confusing to have the answer to a question be "well, here's three different ways that this is correct," when, often, what's underlying the actual question, is a question about how to think about something without wanting to become a scholar of this stuff. I got around this by just choosing certain conventions for myself, like yanta for -i instead of anna, which, arguably, are not the best, but, in the name of moving forward and learning, were more useful to me than diving into the theoretical possibilities and the origin of each possibility.
• Finally, I think one thing that might be massively helpful would be a transliteration guide. This would be a short passage that covers various use cases that might crop up as regular questions. It would, for example, have both examples of sa-rince and za-rince; of dipthongs, digraphs, and where vowels might be split; of y-as-vowel and y-as-consonant; of the different tengwa being used in different cases; etc. This transliterated passage then would be accompanied by a short guide outlining the various use cases, and why those things might be written like that, especially in the cases where the orthographic dips into the phonemic and how your accent might affect what you write, etc. Of course, given that things can be written in different ways correctly, this would be aimed at a "common denominator" transliteration.

Heya,

I didn't skip day 5, I just decided not to post because it was actually pretty straight forward. This one had a lot of big words, and is my final passage as I'm heading out of my learn Tengwar in 7 days challenge. I have some thoughts re: learning Tengwar that I'd like to put to the community, but I'll split that out to another post for the sake of clarity.

Here's the transliteration:

page 1

page 2

page 3

The text should read:

!Exploring the depths of the rainforest, biologists have discovered countless species previously unknown to science. The dense canopy, teeming with life, presents both challenges and opportunities for researchers. Among the towering trees and vibrant flora, every step can lead to a new finding. Dr. Amelia Reyes, a renowned ecologist, embarked on an expedition to study the symbiotic relationships between insects and plants. Her team observed how certain butterflies relied exclusively on specific flowers for nectar, while those plants depended on the butterflies for pollination. These intricate connections highlighted the delicate balance of the ecosystem. Dr. Reyes emphasized that understanding these relationships is crucial for conservation efforts, as the loss of one species can have cascading effects on others.!<

Thanks very much!

Hello All!

I am wanting to get a tattoo. I found a generator and typed the words I wanted. I am hoping it is correct before I make it permanent.

Could someone translate it for me? Just to confirm. (Its the the lyrics to a song) Thanks!