Finally starting my first read through the Silmarillion. Honestly between the density, and absurdly wide breadth of information dumped on you, it's harder to get through than I was warned. I don't think I'm picking up even 50% of what I'm reading.

Fëanor, Fingolfin, Finwë, Fingon, Folco

takes a deep breath

Fredegar, Forlong, Fréa, Fréaláf, Frór, Fastred, Fimbrethil...

My ears go crossed-eyed trying to pronounce these as I read them.

However, I just read chapter 11, titled "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor" and I was completely engrossed. What a beautifully written chapter. It's absolutely going to be the first chapter I re-read once I'm through to the end of the book.

If anyone ever tries to recommend the Silmarillion be read by a friend, I highly suggest recommending chapter 11 first, even if they don't know who anyone involved is.

After having written about both the First Kinslaying and the Third Kinslaying, I thought I’d have a look at the many different versions of the Second Kinslaying for good measure. The Second Kinslaying is an extremely old element of the tales of the Sons of Fëanor and of Doriath, and underwent surprisingly few changes over the decades.  

In the earliest version of the Second Kinslaying, in The Nauglafring, central elements of the tale already exist, in this order: (1) One of the Sons of Fëanor inflames the others (here, Maedhros); (2) The Sons of Fëanor demand the Silmaril from Dior; (3) Dior refuses; (4) The Sons of Fëanor attack; (5) This attack is unexpected to Dior; (6) Dior is killed; (7) Several sons of Fëanor are killed; (8) Elwing survives and flees with the Silmaril: 

“Now Maidros, whom Melko maimed, was their leader, and he called to his brethren Maglor and Dinithel, and to Damrod and to Celegorm, to Cranthor and to Curufin the Crafty, and he said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes – but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with Melko nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said Maidros, ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’
Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglafring, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglafring unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded win with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘and your hearts be bold enow.’
Then went Curufin unto his brethren, and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [?thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior – and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon Dior, and Dior and Auredhir [his son] were slain, yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, and they bore with them the Nauglafring, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but a host of Dior’s folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on their rear, and there was a great battle, and Maglor was slain with swords, and [one of the twins] died of wounds in the wild, and Celegorm was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Cranthor beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the brown Elves and the green were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to Maidros the maimed, nor to Curufin and Damrod who had slain their lord; and it is said that even on the day of that battle of the Elves Melko sought against Gondolin, and the fortunes of the Elves came to their uttermost waning.” (HoME II, p. 241–242) 

In The Sketch of the Mythology, the passage is very short, but the central element of the attempts at diplomacy by the Sons of Fëanor is explicitly there: 

“Dior re-established Doriath and grew proud, and wore the ‘Nauglafring’, and the fame of the Silmaril went abroad. After vain bargaining the sons of Fëanor made war on him (the second slaying of Elf by Elf) and destroyed him, […].” (HoME IV, p. 33) 

That is, elements (2), (3), (4), (6) and (7) are there, while (1) and (5) aren’t mentioned. Element (8), meanwhile, is completely changed for a very short while: interestingly, at first, Tolkien had the sons of Fëanor recover the Nauglafring and fight it out for the Silmaril here, with Maglor (!) being the last survivor, but he soon changed this to Elwing escaping with the Nauglafring (HoME IV, p. 33), just like both in The Nauglafring and in later versions. 

In the Quenta Noldorinwa, just like in the Sketch, elements (2), (3), (4), (6), (7) and (8) are there, while (1) and (5) aren’t mentioned.

“But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. The sons of Fëanor, when he would not yield the jewel unto them, came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain, and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.” (HoME IV, p. 134, fn omitted) 

Two footnotes to this passage expand on it: 

For one, it’s made explicit that the Sons of Fëanor requested the return of the Silmaril: “For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior’s pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came, &c.” (HoME IV, p. 135)

Moreover, this is also where a new element (9) is introduced: the death of the sons of Dior, here called Eldûn and Elrûn (“late change”) (HoME IV, p. 135). 

In The Earliest Annals of Beleriand, elements (2), (3), (4), (6), (7) and (8) are there, while elements (1) and (5) aren’t. Moreover, the new element (9) is significantly expanded to include the kidnap and death of the sons of Dior, and Maedhros’s opposition to this. 

“205 The sons of Fëanor hear tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and gather from wandering and hold council. They summon Dior to give up the jewel.
206 Here Dior fought the sons of Fëanor on the east marches of Doriath, but he was slain. Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir fell in battle. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth, were slain by the evil men of Maidros’ host, and Maidros bewailed the foul deed. The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves and taken to Sirion’s mouth, and with them they took the jewel and the necklace.” (HoME IV, p. 307) 

In The Later Annals of Beleriand, it’s pretty much the same, with element (9) now involving Maedhros not only lamenting what his followers had done, but actively trying to find the sons of Dior in order to save them: 

“305 [505] The sons of Fëanor heard tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and they gathered from wandering, and held council together. Maidros sent unto Dior and summoned him to give up the jewel.
306 [506] Here Dior Thingol’s heir fought the sons of Fëanor on the east marches of Doriath, but he was slain. This was the second kinslaying, and the fruit of the oath. Celegorm fell in that battle, and Curufin, and Cranthir. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth, were taken captive by the evil men of Maidros’ following, and they were left to starve in the woods; but Maidros lamented the cruel deed, and sought unavailingly for them.” (HoME V, p. 142, fn omitted) 

From The Tale of Years, two texts are important for this analysis: C and D2. 

Version C is the only one where elements (2) and (3), the Sons of Fëanor verbally demanding the return of the Silmaril and Dior’s refusal, are not explicitly mentioned. However, elements (4), (6), (7), (8) and (9) are there, although Maedhros’s attempt to save the sons of Dior isn’t mentioned here: 

“511 [>509] The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Fëanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldún and Elrún sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion.” (HoME XI, p. 348) (C) 

This changes again with version D2, where all elements are there, in this order: (2) The Sons of Fëanor demanding the Silmaril from Dior; (3) Dior refusing (well, returning no answer); (1) One of the Sons of Fëanor inflaming the others (here, Celegorm); (4) The Sons of Fëanor attacking; (5) This attack being unexpected (“at unawares”); (6) Dior being killed; (7) Several sons of Fëanor being killed; (9) The kidnap of the sons of Dior, and Maedhros’s attempt to save them; (8) Elwing surviving and fleeing with the Silmaril.  

“505 The sons of Fëanor hearing news of the Silmaril that it is in Doriath hold council. Maidros restrains his brethren, but a message is sent to Dior demanding the Jewel. Dior returns no answer.
506 Celegorn inflames the brethren, and they prepare an assault on Doriath. They come up at unawares in winter.
506–507 At Yule Dior fought the sons of Fëanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior’s hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior’s sons(Elrún and Eldún) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [In margin: Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.” (HoME XI, p. 351) (D2) 

I find it particularly interesting how the very old element from The Nauglafring of one of the Sons of Fëanor inflaming the others returned decades later, and find it especially poetic that Maedhros’s role of being the inciter of the Second Kinslaying and the one whose men kidnap and leave the sons of Dior to starve is given to Celegorm. Given the strong parallels between Maedhros and Celegorm, this makes sense: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1c443m3/the_falls_of_maedhros_and_celegorm/ . 

In the published Quenta Silmarillion, all elements are there, with Celegorm the inciter and the one whose men are responsible for the fate of the sons of Dior—unsurprisingly, given the origins of this passage: a mix of Quenta Noldorinwa and versions C and D2 of The Tale of Years (Arda Reconstructed, p. 211). 

“But now the rumour ran among the scattered Elves of Beleriand that Dior Thingol’s heir wore the Nauglamir, and they said: ‘A Silmaril of Fëanor burns again in the woods of Doriath’; and the oath of the sons of Fëanor was waked again from sleep. For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her; but now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and of Dior’s pride the seven gathered again from wandering, and they sent to him to claim their own.
But Dior returned no answer to the sons of Fëanor; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came at unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the Thousand Caves; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf. There fell Celegorm by Dior’s hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Elured and Elurín no tale tells.” (Sil, QS, ch. 22) 

However, the version in the published Quenta Silmarillion also introduces two entirely new elements: 

First, the death of Dior’s wife. While Dior’s wife (here named Nimloth) is killed in the published Quenta Silmarillion, this is not the case elsewhere. Dior’s wife is only mentioned in the context of the Second Kinslaying in one text in HoME, and that is version D2 of The Tale of Years, where she (here named Lindis) survives and flees with her daughter Elwing. 

Secondly, the version in the published Quenta Silmarillion introduces the idea that far from a “battle” (The Nauglafring, Earliest Annals, Later Annals) or “war” (The Nauglafring, Sketch) fought between two armies “on the east marches of Doriath” (Earliest Annals, Later Annals, Tale of Years, version D2), it was really more of a massacre that took place “in the Thousand Caves” (= Menegroth) instead. 

I have no idea where these two changes, both of which in my opinion end up making the Sons of Fëanor as a whole feel significantly more culpable, come from. In particular, the element that the Second Kinslaying was a battle fought on the marches of Doriath was consistent throughout Tolkien’s life, and so moving the fighting in the Second Kinslaying to Menegroth is baffling if you go only by the texts published in HoME, Letters and NoME, as well as Concerning The Hoard. 

(Chapter 22 of the published Quenta Silmarillion was particularly difficult for Christopher Tolkien, given that much of what his father had written about it was very old and incompatible with other elements of the story. As Christopher Tolkien writes about the result, “This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him.” HoME XI, p. 356; in general, see HoME XI, p. 354–356 about how the difficulties with and drafting of the published chapter.) 

As an aside, I noticed something else: the Second Kinslaying is treated quite oddly in some late writings (well, a lot of things are). The Shibboleth implies that either the Second Kinslaying wasn’t the fall of Doriath, or that Dior didn’t die in the Second Kinslaying: “there Dior dwelt after the fall of Doriath among the Green Elves of that forest country” (HoME XII, p. 349), referring to Ossiriand. Meanwhile, in The Problem of Ros, another very late text, the Second Kinslaying seems to exist, but not the Third Kinslaying: “Eluréd and Elurín, before they came to manhood, were both slain by the sons of Fëanor, in the last and most abominable deed brought about by the curse that that impious oath of Fëanor laid upon them.” (HoME XII, p. 369) 

Sources 

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil]. 

The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME II]. 

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII].

I'm hoping this is okay to post.. my oldest is doing a research project for a linguistics class, looking specifically into the Silmarillion fanfiction Fandom. If interested in participating, please fill out the Google docs survey. Fandom Terminology Quiz - Google Forms https://docs.google.com/forms/d/17uEeUTKTYww4IuvQMeThLo6FQxigvwpA-v2wmwYzuGA/edit

TL;DR : I believe treachery and possessiveness are the two most condemned traits in Professor Tolkien's works.

So far, I've only read The Lord of the Rings trilogy, The Hobbit, and I'm halfway through The Silmarillion. I believe there are certain traits that are strongly condemned in Professor Tolkien's viewpoint.

I believe the first and boldest of these traits is treachery. In The Fellowship of the Ring, at the council of Elrond, where the treachery of Saruman is ultimately revealed, we gradually see how significantly it impacts the fate of the people of Middle-earth. However, Saruman paid dearly for betraying the White Council. I assume that among the condemned traits and attributes, treachery and betrayal are the most sinister deeds in Tolkien's worldview.

Next to treachery and betrayal, I believe, stands possessiveness. In The Silmarillion, possessiveness is especially one of the central themes concerning Fëanor and his seven sons. At first, I confused it with greed, but they imply slightly different meanings, at least in my humble opinion, and they seem to have a very close relationship. Many things might lead someone to be a possessive person, and greed is one of them. That said, greedy people are potentially prone to possessiveness. Dwarves are known to be a greedy race, but Fëanor and his household are known for their possessiveness of the Silmarils. They swore an oath that obliged them to claim the Silmarils only for themselves, and they had to fulfill it.

While greed and possessiveness are not identical, there are certainly other traits and attributes that have been criticized by Professor Tolkien, such as lying and fear, but these two appear to have received the most focus, and the Professor has elaborately reflected on them.

"But the earth was all rent and pitted about him,and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth put his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond".

I read The Silmarillion more than 10 years ago as a teenager, I remember only outlines and major points. I want to re-read it, and I was wondering if there are online book clubs where people can read it simultaneously. Is anyone organizing something like that?

EDIT: We might organize a club with people who are interested. If you are one, let us know in the comments!

The battle between Fingolfin and Morgoth is the most splendid, incredible, and heroic scene I've read so far in Tolkien's works!

A few days ago, I was listening to the audiobook file of the eighteenth chapter of The Silmarillion, titled 'Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin', and it was AMAZING. Besides the perfect narration by Andy Serkis of this chapter, I believe this is one of the most well-written chapters of the book. Tolkien's peculiar descriptive writing style allows the reader to conceive imaginary visions as detailed and adorned as they are willing, and in this chapter, you witness the utmost depiction of his work.

So, as it had been proven in crossing the Helcaraxë, we see once again how steadfast and stouthearted Fingolfin is. He marched alone to Angband, and standing before the iron gates of the most terrifying fortress in the world, he cried aloud to Morgoth, challenging him to a one-on-one battle! He is truly one of the most valiant chieftains of the Eldar! Not gonna lie, when I was listening to the audiobook, it kept giving me goosebumps. I would have loved to see what he might have done to Sauron and his army.

I love him! Also, I'm going to read the nineteenth chapter, 'Of Beren and Lúthien', for the first time. So excited :)

In honor of Halloween and to my love of the often subtle horror or disturbing elements in The Silmarillion, I’m curious what plot lines, characters or even just implications you find most frightening or disturbing

Angband is an obvious favorite to me as well as the elves Morgoth releases but I think my very favorite is Morwen being accused of witchcraft which I never see anyone talking about but I think about it so much , it puts her in such horrifyingly real danger and if anyone wants to talk to me about that please do!

Directly to my question: what 5 things should a first time reader of The Silmarillion be looking out for?

A little background: I read The Hobbit for the first time when I was in high school. Twenty years later, around the time the movies were made, I read LOTR for the first time, and re-read The Hobbit. About 15 years later, I read The Hobbit and then The LOTR to my daughter, over breakfast, or sometimes second breakfast, before she shuffled off to high school.

My goal at this point is a deeper read of The LOTR. I have become a better reader over the years, in part because now I have access to social media and podcasts where the books I am reading are being discussed. But an important part of the puzzle is knowing what questions I am trying to answer before I begin reading. This is where I need your help!

A little further background: two years ago I lost my brother-in-law. He was one of the best friends I ever had, and a huge LOTR nerd. He jump-started my interest when he loaned me his Fellowship of the Rings DVD, and casually asked me if I had ever read the books. He went on to tell me that he had read and re-read his first copy until the covers literally fell off. I’m missing him, and want to spend a little time with his favorite story.

ETA: Thanks to each of you for your replies. I read these with pen and notebook in hand, and am sure I got something worthwhile from every reply. This community exceeds my expectations!

I loved seeing the discussion my minor character question garnered so I thought I’d ask which people’s favorite relationship in Silm and related texts was! The relationship can be romantic, platonic, familial, enmity, etc

My favorite relationships are Morwen and Aerin, and Morwen and Húrin among others!

Could someone refresh my mind of the difference between Sindar and Silvan elves.

I was wondering if there was an active subreddit for discussion specific to The Children of Húrin, I was thinking of making a subreddit if there wasn’t

I would like to recommend to everyone a book called "Arda Reconstructed" written by Douglas C. Kane, which in my opinion documents quite well all the editorial changes and modifications that Christopher made from his father's texts for the Silmarillion, and on which texts exactly he based himself.

And although it is true that Kane can sometimes take things too far, I agree with him that it seems that the publisher gave Christopher an arbitrary page limit (compared to for example the number of pages that The Return of the King has including Appendices, or to mention another saga, Fire and Blood by Martin) when the Silmarillion was published.

Two quite paradigmatic examples are the omission of the text of the oath of Fëanor at Tirion, and of the speech of Fingolfin at the gates of Angband. Another example would be how incredibly short and condensed the Tuor chapter in the Silmarillion is, even by the standards of a book of abridged stories like the Silm, removing details even from the 1930s Quenta abridged version - such as Idril asking her father to heed Ulmo's warning conveyed by Tuor.

Another example, acknowledged by Christopher, would be the omission of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth despite Tolkien stating verbatim that it should be one of the appendices to the Silmarillion, but I understand Christopher's hesitation about including more explicitly Christian material than the Chronicles of Narnia.

What do you think? If you haven't read the book, I highly recommend it.

I’m curious who everyone’s favorite minor characters are! For Silm I think what defines minor character is somewhat up to interpretation. For example I think Morwen is a minor character in the official Silmarillion but not a minor character in The Children of Húrin so if you guys also like someone who doesn’t feature super prominently in the Silm but has more of a role in one of the other works feel free to include them!

Anyways my favorite minor Silm characters are Morwen and Aerin though I love many others

Hi! I already posted this on r/TolkienFans but I think it deserves wider appreciation.

This comes from the newly published Collected Poems - it's an excerpt from the 1931/2 rhyming couplet version of the Children of Hurin:

Thus Húrin guarded their retreat,

and ever songs of elves him praise,

his name has sounded down the days

uncounted; for he kept his troth,

for death nor torment broke his oath

and death in the mouth of hell defied

and saved a remnant of the pride

and glory of the elves, that yet

a hope of vengeance, and a threat

lurked in the shadows unexplored,

a dream unquiet, a hanging sword.

Hi. I've a vague recollection of reading somewhere that toward the end of JRRT's life, Humphry Carpenter and Tolkien worked on getting some of the manuscripts in order with an eye on publishing what we know as The Silmarillion. Does anyone have any info on this? Thanks.

I am at a loss. re the publication history of The Silmarillion. Question: did Tolkien and Humphry Carpentar attempt to put some of the manuscripts in order with an eye on publishing what we know as The Silmarillion in the last year or years of JRT's life?

I think I read that they did, have no idea where I'd have seen the comment.

When talking about power scales in the legendarium, it is important to keep in mind that power, life, and in general, absolutely everything, come from Eru the Creator and are a gift from the Almighty to His Children (Elves and Men), His Servants (the Ainur) and His Creations (Dwarves, Ents, Talking Animals...) in general.

We are all, in principle, reflections and parts of the mind of the Almighty. It is our turning away from Him that pushes us to evil, darkness and the fall.

That is why we can see so many cases of figures theoretically inferior in power who manage to defeat more powerful beings, precisely because they were spiritually closer to The One and aligned themselves more with Eru's plans, voluntarily serving as instruments in the hands of God, and accepting to bear the sufferings that were necessary for the salvation of Middle Earth.

In short, the closer you are to Eru Ilúvatar and the Imperishable Flame (which is Eru Himself), the more powerful you are. If you move away from Eru, you become progressively weaker and die in the process, as you move further and further away from Eru, which is Life itself.

So, we all know that Miriel gave up her spirit after giving birth to Feanor and entered the Halls of Mandos. From what I've read, she chose to die willingly. She was tired in body and spirit. After she died, Finwe was given persmission to marry again because his wife didn't want to come back. Mandos told her she could change her mind and come back in a new body, but she refused. So, Finwe married and we all know the story. Later on, Finwe was killed and now that he was also dead, Miriel could come back. She couldn't come back before that because Finwe remarried. After Finwe died, he chose to remain in the Halls forever so Miriel could come back to the living.

My questions: Why did she choose to come back now that Finwe was dead? Was it not possible for her to heal and come back while Finwe and Feanor were still alive? If she was given a choice to come back someday when her spirit had been healed in the Halls of Mandos, why did Finwe choose to marry Indis, thus preventing Miriel from coming back once she felt better? Was he just too lazy to wait or selfish or what?

If Glaurung and Ancalagon the Black had existed at the same time, how do you think they'd have got on?

On the one hand Glaurung is the father of Dragons so would Ancalagon owe him fealty under Morgoth, who could compel both? Or would Ancalagon, being of the first winged Dragons and largest think he has evolved beyond Glaurung? I'm not sure how their.sizes compared but it was intimated Ancalagon was massive too.

Obviously Morgoth would have probably compelled them when necessary but alone I think there'd be animosity as they are territorial and proud.

So here’s food for thought.

Finwe was undisputed the first. He is slain, then it is by all rights Feanor but we know Fingolfin had significant support. Nonetheless, “legally” it’s Feanor.

So when Feanor is killed, Maedhros - who, I should point out, is actually named “Finwe [the] Third” by Feanor (I assume most of us are aware of the Noldorin naming conventions, e.g. Feanor wasn’t actually named Feanor by Finwe) becomes the rightful High King.

Now, Maedhros, in a very astute political move, cedes the kingship to Fingolfin. And on it goes from Fingolfin’s line through Fingon then Turgo. to Gil-Galad, regardless of whether the latter is descended from Fingolfin or Finarfin.

Ok. We all know this.

So here’s the fascinating detail which seems to be universally overlooked:

When Maedhros is taken prisoner and hung from Thangoridrim, he’s still legally High King. Fingolfin hasn’t even made it to Middle Earth yet. Maedhros has no children, of course. So with him gone, the crown - legally - would pass to Maglor.

Of course he’s not dead, but he’s still “incapacitated” you might say. So, Maglor would be the senior Feanorian when Fingolfin does show up, and, technically speaking, “acting High King”.

That never gets covered which I find interesting.

In practice, my guess is that in that situation Maglor would be hard pressed by his more fiery younger brothers and likely unable to control them nearly as well as Maedhros, who wasn’t perfect at it himself.

Like I said, food for thought.

The story of Túrin’s family (The Children of Húrin and related writings) stands out among Tolkien’s works in many respects, but one of the most notable is how, unlike most of Tolkien’s other writings, it’s far less sanitised. The tale is harsh and ugly and full of violence—particularly sexual violence. While there are direct references to sexual violence elsewhere (more specifically, Morgoth’s rape/attempted rape of Arien in HoME X, p. 381, 405, as well as the story of Aredhel, see HoME XI, p. 409: “he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar”), as well as inferences that can be made (particularly about what Morgoth wishes to do to Lúthien, about what the Orcs do to Celebrían, and about what Sauron does to Celebrimbor), both direct references and allusions to sexual violence are much more numerous in Túrin’s story. 

“Taking by force” in the Children of Húrin 

First of all, there are the direct references to sexual violence. When the Easterlings take over Hithlum after the Nirnaeth (and with the Nirnaeth the death of most fighting age men) and enslave the Edain of Hithlum, it’s clearly open season on the women of Hithlum. 

We see this in how Aerin, Húrin’s kinswoman, is treated: “for a certain Brodda, one of the Easterlings, had taken her by force to be his wife.” (CoH, p. 68) That is, she is raped by Brodda: “take by force” is Tolkien-speak for rape (cf HoME XI, p. 256, 409). Later, when Aerin helps Morwen and Nienor, we are told that she “was often beaten for it by the churl Brodda, her husband by need.” (CoH, p. 184) (By the way, if you want to read some truly abominable behaviour from Túrin, just look at how he speaks to Aerin in CoH, p. 189.) 

But it’s not just Aerin. While the invading Easterlings are sufficiently terrified of Morwen to leave her alone, considering her a witch (CoH, p. 67), the same does not apply to Morwen’s daughter Nienor: In the text The Wanderings of Húrin, in annal 494, we are told specifically that an Easterling wanted to rape Nienor, and it is implied that this is what causes Nienor and Morwen to finally flee: “Lorgan hearing of Niënor’s beauty is eager to take her by force. Morwen and Nienor flee the land and come to Doriath.” (HoME XI, p. 256) 

But there are less direct references—allusions, really—too. In chronological order, I am speaking about Saeros, the young woman in the woods, and Beleg. 

Saeros 

Saeros is an Elf of Doriath who hates Túrin. Saeros insults Túrin and his people, particularly the women of Hithlum, and Túrin physically injures him in return. We are then told that, “On the next day Saeros waylaid Túrin as he set out from Menegroth to return to the marches; but Túrin overcame him, and set him to run naked as a hunted beast through the woods. Then Saeros fleeing in terror before him fell into the chasm of a stream, and his body was broken on a great rock in the water.” (Sil, QS, ch. 21) 

More specifically, this is what happened: 

“‘Saeros,’ he said, ‘there is a long race before you, and clothes will be a hindrance; hair must suffice.’ And suddenly throwing him to the ground he stripped him, and Saeros felt Túrin’s great strength, and was afraid. But Túrin let him up, and then ‘Run, run, mocker of women!’ he cried. ‘Run! And unless you go swift as the deer I shall prick you on from behind.’ Then he set the point of the sword in Saeros’ buttock; and he fled into the wood, crying wildly for help in his terror; but Túrin came after him like a hound, and however he ran, or swerved, still the sword was behind him to egg him on.
The cries of Saeros brought many others to the chase, and they followed after, but only the swiftest could keep up with the runners.” (CoH, p. 89–90) 

I am aware that Túrin is making a reference to Saeros’ contemptuous speech about the women of Hithlum running around naked “like the deer clad only in their hair” earlier (CoH, p. 87). However, the entire situation feels sexually aggressive on Túrin’s side. He physically throws Saeros to the ground and strips him of his clothes, and then proceeds to prod Saeros’ buttocks with his sword, following Saeros as he runs away, terrified. 

As u/peortega1 writes, “That said, the scene of Túrin stripping Saeros works better in one thing, making it clear to us that there is something broken in Túrin. Something perverted and sick. He is not his father, he is not Beren, he is not Aragorn. What it does, however, does not fit into the great tragic hero as the later Silmarillion paints him.” (https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1g6coor/comment/lshuper/) 

The young woman in the woods  

Speaking of a screaming, disheveled, terrified person running away from an armed man in the woods… This happens again a few pages later, although this time, Túrin is only an observer. 

“But on a sudden [Túrin] heard cries, and from a hazel-thicket a young woman ran out; her clothes were rent by thorns, and she was in great fear, and stumbling she fell gasping to the ground. Then Túrin springing towards the thicket with drawn sword hewed down a man that burst from the hazels in pursuit; and he saw only in the very stroke that it was Forweg.
But as he stood looking down in amaze at the blood upon the grass, Andróg came out, and halted also astounded. ‘Evil work, Neithan!’ he cried, and drew his sword; but Túrin’s mood ran cold, and he said to Andróg: ‘Where are the Orcs, then? Have you outrun them to help her?’
‘Orcs?’ said Andróg. ‘Fool! You call yourself an outlaw. Outlaws know no law but their needs. Look to your own, Neithan, and leave us to mind ours.’
‘I will do so,’ said Túrin. ‘But today our paths have crossed. You will leave the woman to me, or you will join Forweg.’
Andróg laughed. ‘If that is the way of it, have your will,’ he said. ‘I make no claim to match you, alone; but our fellows may take this slaying ill.’” (CoH, p. 103–104) 

I’d say that it’s pretty obvious what was going to happen here, and what Túrin interrupted. Going by what Andróg says later, he thought that Túrin wanted the woman in order to rape her, and was surprised when Túrin sent her off instead (cf CoH, p. 106). 

Beleg

This is far less obvious than the others. However, after writing this piece https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1cutscc/celebrimbor_st_sebastian_and_sauron/ on the symbolism involved in Celebrimbor’s death, I began to think about how Andróg and the other outlaws treat Beleg while Túrin is absent. 

• “Beleg came upon their lair by night. It chanced that at that time Túrin was gone from the camp; and the outlaws seized Beleg and bound him, and treated him cruelly, for they feared him as a spy of the King of Doriath. But Túrin returning and seeing what was done, was stricken with remorse for all their evil and lawless deeds; and he released Beleg, and they renewed their friendship, and Turin foreswore thenceforward war or plunder against all save the servants of Angband.” (Sil, QS, ch. 21) 
• “Then he bade them tie Beleg to a tree beside the cave; and when he was hard bound hand and foot they questioned him. […] Then at the egging of Andróg they left Beleg tied to the tree without food or water, and they sat near eating and drinking; but he said no more to them. When two days and nights had passed in this way they became angry and fearful, and were eager to be gone; and most were now ready to slay the Elf. As night drew down they were all gathered about him, and Ulrad brought a brand from the little fire that was lit in the cave-mouth. But at that moment Túrin returned. Coming silently, as was his custom, he stood in the shadows beyond the ring of men, and he saw the haggard face of Beleg in the light of the brand. Then he was stricken as with a shaft, and as if at the sudden melting of a frost tears long unshed filled his eyes. He sprang out and ran to the tree. ‘Beleg! Beleg!’ he cried. ‘How have you come hither? And why do you stand so?’ At once he cut the bonds from his friend, and Beleg fell forward into his arms.” (CoH, p. 112–113) 

To be honest, the image of Beleg tied to a tree, bound hard hand and foot, being treated cruelly, and then Ulrad approaching the bound and exhausted Elf with a brand—what on earth was he planning on doing with that brand? What did the outlaws do to Beleg while Túrin was gone? 

I have joked in the past that “Tolkien can write incest-dragon-stories too”, but those aren’t the only similarities between Children of Húrin and Game of Thrones. Like the latter, Children of Húrin is dark, and grim, and full of terrible sexual violence, both on the surface and below. 

Sources 

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil]. 

The Children of Húrin, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2014 (softcover) [cited as: CoH]. 

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

If Elves go to the Hall of Mandos when they die and only Eru knows where Humans go, what happens to Dwarves when they die?

It is said in the books that Elves born in Valinor before the dying of the trees retain some of their light in their eyes. But what happens when they die and are reincarnated like Glorfindel? Does their new body retain the light or lose it?