For example, if someone powerful(say Saruman) were to put on the Ring and challenge Sauron, would the Ring betray them or accept them as its new master?

I recall reading that Tolkien had a difficult time convincing Allen & Unwin to publish Lord of the Rings. Do we know if there are any remarkable editorial concessions required for the publisher to agree?

Hello, I'm a new fan of this vast, incredible world of Tolkien. Whenever I go into a book, I end up looking for character art (which is not good sometimes, due to spoilers). Recently I've been a bit obsessed with these books, so I looked more deeply into certain characters and ended up coming across several artworks (mostly) of Eönwë with wings. Is it a headcanon, or is canon?. Sorry if this question is too stupid or obvious. Thank you for the attention! :)

Knowing that Gandalf was sent to be a protector of Middle Earth, one would assume that he doesn't go out of his way to do anything that wouldn't ultimately lead up to the defeat of Sauron.

Our first introduction to him and the rest of the LOTR world happens in the Hobbit where he initiated a quest for the dwarves to retake their homeland from Smaug the dragon. I'm curious how important these events were to the events that lead up to Sauron's destruction, and how much Gandalf knew ahead of time for it to contribute to such an end.

How pivitol were the dwarves from Erebor in combatting the enemy's forces?

Would Sauron have been able to enlist Smaug in his war?

Neither Gandalf nor Sauron knew that the one ring would reemerges as a result of this quest, could they have?

What else was known or assumed for the usefulness of this quest. Was Gandalf essentially doing a side-quest in the lead up to defeating Sauron?

If we consider all his published work, what would be the optimal structure?

I was thinking something like this:

Novels

Companions

Compilations

Legendarium

Miscellaneous

Non-Fiction (could be the same as Misc above)

Those what I've come up with for starters, but has any of you tried to make any kind of organizing in this manner?

Thank you in advance!

Are there any other authors that have made a fictional world and history at all comparable to Tolkien in size, scope, and complexity? I’d be interested in recommendations of authors that have fictional worlds and series that have extensive lore of language, religion and history similar to Tolkien’s legendarium.

Because I have stumbled on a typo in the Hammond & Scull Index to the 2004 edition, at the end of the entry for "Hobbits"

see also Bree; Fallowhides; Harfoots; Mathom; Shire, the; Stoors; etc.

​

When Frodo, Pippin, and Sam arrive at Frodo's new house in Crickhollow, Merry has prepared hot, refreshing bath tubs for all three of them after their long journey. It's a fun scene, with songs and splashing and comfort.

But why are there three tubs at all? Frodo is (ostensibly) moving to this little house to live quietly on his own, maybe because his money is running out. Sam's coming too, as his servant. Certainly it's reasonable to think that he might expect occasional friends to come visit. But in this downsized, reduced-budget home for two (or rather, one plus a servant), is a triple bathroom really a logical place to allocate scarce space and funds? Is "taking baths together in a group" a central part of Frodo's expected social life? (Was this typical among British upper-class gentlemen in Tolkien's era?) How large was Crickhollow, and with how many rooms, if a bathing room that big was a part of it?

(Also, how the heck did Merry and Fatty heat enough water for all three? I had the impression that heating water for a bath tended to be s very involved operation before indoor plumbing and water heaters.)

In some drafts of the Silmarillion, Tolkien has Turin play a major role in the Dagor Dagorath. Here is one excerpt I found, though I'm not sure what the original source is.

Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all fallen Men be avenged.

This text implies that Turin dies and leaves Arda, only to return for the Last Battle. This seems to contrast with Tolkien's other writing where humans spend a short time in the Halls of Mandos before leaving Arda permanently. Our only example of a human coming back to life is Beren, but he never leaves the Halls of Mandos, so he is still in Arda. Hurin seems to be unique in that he returns after leaving Arda. Is this interpretation correct?

I'm also unsure of how this would work in Tolkien's mythology. The Gift of Men is permanent. Turin leave the world again after Dagor Dagorath?

Dagor Dagorath was removed from the Silmarillion, so I guess it makes sense that it's inconsistent with the rest of the legendarium. Still, I'm wondering if any of these inconsistencies can be resolved.

For french Tolkien fans and all that didn't know about that wonderful poem

https://youtu.be/2Bqe7VQkrXA?feature=shared

A commentary/analysis will soon be released too

One interesting facet of the first age adventures is Túrin and Tuor’s stories happen roughly simultaneously. The difference is that Túrin’s story is one of calamity after calamity, each more tragic than the last, as a result of the curse of Morgoth; whereas Tuor’s features repeated devine intervention, starting with Tuor at his lowest and follows him as his situation improves. They are almost entirely opposites. So my theory is that this isn’t accidental. In order to enable Tuor to complete his mission and set the table for Earendil to make his voyage, Morgoth needed to be completely ignorant of Ulmo’s movements and Tuor’s journeys. So Ulmo, or more likely Eru, allowed Morgoth to be distracted with the children of Húrin and obsess over tormenting them, to the neglect of all else. In this way, Tuor is free to leave the land of his birth and travel to Vinyamar, get his mission from Ulmo, and travel to Gondolin, all unnoticed by Morgoth. Tuor’s journey leads directly to meeting Idril, the birth of Earendil, and the salvation of men and elves.

An interesting consequence of this theory is that the most perilous part of Tuor’s journey is when he accidentally runs into Túrin at the lake. With Morgoth following Túrin’s movements (or attempting to do so), it would have raised quite a few red flags to see a man of Tuor’s lineage heading north east with a Noldor elf.

So, after a month(https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1brve72/oh_my_fcking_tolkien/) , I managed to finish the 3 Lord of the Rings books (I finished The Return of the King in less than a day!)

What a way of writing this man has, holy cow! And although the films are very faithful, ultimately they do not do justice to characters like Elrond or Faramir.

Elrond is not as annoying as in the movie and does not spend his time depressing Arwen. And Faramir is definitely much better because of his chapters..

You see, I used to read Brandon Sanderson, and I always complained about his romances... But I can't believe that Tolkien, in a single chapter, captivated me with the words that Faramir gives to Éowyn! I see why Tolkien's wife decided to leave her marriage to go with Tolkien!

There were several parts that moved me, but only one stood out. And that's when Sam thinks that Frodo is dead. That phrase of realization "He's not asleep! He's dead!" I almost started crying with him 😭

Anyway, it has been a very good trip, Tolkien is second in my favorite writers, because the first is Jules Verne. But he comes first in my fantasy writers

Now for the Hobbit and the Silmarillion!

There was a thread here the other day about the Redhorn Pass and the Fellowship's attempt to cross it. People with mountain experience weighed in. There was speculation about how high the summit of the pass might have been.

Tolkien went on a walking tour in of the Swiss Alps in 1911. His descriptions of mountain landscapes surely derive largely from this experience. It occurred to me to look at Letters 306, in which he shared his memories of the trip with his son Michael, to see if I could find out how high he went. (Guesswork is involved because, 50 years later, he was not sure of the exact route.)

The first passes he mentions as having crossed are “the two Scheidegge.” According to Wikipedia the Grosse (Large) Scheidegg “crosses the col between the Schwarzhorn and the Wetterhorn mountains at an elevation of 1,962 m (6,437 ft). The Kleine (Small) Scheidegg is “situated below and between the Eiger and Lauberhorn peaks at an elevation of 2,061 m (6,762 ft).”

The party also crossed the Grimsel Pass (he spelled it “Grimsell”). This pass “connects the Haslital, the upper valley of the river Aare, with the upper valley of the Rhône.” Maximum elevation, 2,164 meters (7,100 ft).

Later they stayed in a barn in a village at the foot of the Aletsch Glacier. The glacier ends today at an elevation of 1650 meters (5,413 feet). Since, like most glaciers, it has receded considerably in the last century, in 1911 it must have extended further down.

Finally, “I remember our arrival, bedraggled, one evening in Zermatt and the lorgnette stares of the French bourgeoises dames. We climbed with guides up to [a] high hut of the Alpine Club, roped (or I should have fallen into a snow-crevasse), and I remember the dazzling whiteness of the tumbled snow-desert between us and the black horn of the Matterhom some miles away.” Zermattt is at 1600 meters (5,315 feet). This was probably the highest point he reached – higher than any of the passes. Maybe somebody is familiar with the terrain and can speculate as to the identity and location of the hut.) But this experience is not relevant to that of the Fellowship, which was not mountaineering but traveling – and there is no way to know how close they got to the summit.

This is not really worth reviving the discussion for, but the German word Scheidegge, which I did not know, caught my eye. Tolkien was held up for almost two years in the writing of LotR, between Book IV and Book V, largely because he knew he wanted to bring up a force from the south to lift the siege of Minas Tirith, but he couldn't figure out where to get the troops. One possibility he considered was to divide the Rohirrim and send part of them across a pass in the White Mountains. At one point Éomer was to lead a force across this pass; then the role was assigned to Aragorn – and Éowyn! See HoME VIII pp. 243-44, 251-53. He drew the pass on his map, but erased it after he invented the Paths of the Dead.

The point is that he called it the Scáda Pass. (He marked the long vowel with a macron, not an acute accent, but I don't know how to make that character.) The Old English word scáda means a parting of the hair -- but it also means the divide between two watersheds. The German word Scheidegg also means a divide, or a watershed; the two words are surely “cognates,” meaning both descend from a word in the primitive Germanic language. Tolkien was fluent in both languages, of course; but it struck me that his Swiss experience might have suggested the name the Rohirrim gave to the evanescent White Mountain pass.

(I posted some of this on the earlier thread; I apologize for the repetition, and for taking up space with something so marginal. But something that may never have been noticed before.)

They were inspired by ordinary Englishmen living in villages among peaceful landscapes, if I'm not mistaken

Tolkien probably loved these people. After all, they live in nature, and not in the city among cars and industrial buildings

Author of the century by Tom Shippey or JRR Tolkien a Biography by Humphrey Carter? (These are both on Audible so I want to choose one.

Sustaining the watch on the Shire and ex-Arnor in general for hundreds of years without having an economy or even significant settlements, what hints do you know from the texts and how do you personally think that the Ranger of the North managed to sustain their activities? An old arnorian treasury kept in Rivendell? Just Elrond? Help from friendly settlements that kept their secret?

This sounds stupid to ask but since I thought of it I haven’t been able to come up with a cogent answer:

who is the rightful owner of the One Ring?

If Isildur took the Ring as ‘wergild’ and Aragorn eventually inherits all Isildur’s relics, does that mean Aragorn was the rightful owner all along?

Or, since the Ring was lost, does that invoke a ‘Finders Keepers’ rule? So Deagol?

As far as I’m aware neither Smeagol nor Bilbo officially ‘claimed’ the Ring. Frodo is the only one we see try to declare it as his.

Or is that all irrelevant and Sauron was always the owner?

Just as a language nerd. He's compared Latin and Quenya in some ways "the archaic language of lore is meant to be a kind of 'Elven-latin', and by transcribing it into a spelling closely resembling that of Latin (except that y is only used as a consonant, as y in E. Yes) the similarity to Latin has been increased ocularly." The latter elaboration on how spelling is used means this is more than just 'phonaesthetic pleasure' as he calls it. In addition to this though I don't think he remarks on it, he always to my knowledge uses hard c's in Elvish naming convention as in Celebrimbor. An English speaker, just due to normal spelling conventions with C, might first be tempted to read names like that with a soft C. He did cite Greek as well as an inspiration, which does have soft C's, but the lack of them entirely in Latin is one of the most obvious distinguishers between ecclesiastical latin and others. Tolkien himself though was a Catholic, which possibly influences his preference, but I am wondering if Tolkien has ever expressed disdain for the bastardization and 'ceremonializing' [not a real word I think but hopefully conveying what I mean here] of Latin by the Catholic church, I personally find it ugly. Or maybe I should say it's not very 'phonaesthetic' to me lol

​

[Letter 144 p.193 https://bibliothecaveneficae.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/the_letters_of_j.rrtolkien.pdf]

Did Tolkien write anything about the fate of the Eagles in the Fourth Age? Since they, like Gandalf, are servants of Manwë, I assume they would return to Valinor but has this been confirmed?

Bonus question: This may be a little strange, but would you have liked Tolkien to have written a story with Eagles as main characters? I would like.

Queer Lodgings, there is the sole mention of "dragon-gold". Curious.

They begged him not to leave them. They offered him dragon-gold and silver and jewels, but he would not change his mind. “We shall see, we shall see!” he said, “and I think I have earned already some of your dragon-gold – when you have got it”.

I just came across this post on the difference in life span of the dunedain of arnor and gondor and what the "purity" of numenorean blood means. It has some really unique but highly logical takes on the subject that I dont think I have ever seen any where else, though the general message has been widely acknowledged in the fandom.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/tolkiens-legendarium-si-5-kings-of-men-an-arnor-restoration.1153852/post-100967530

I hope you find it as interesting as I did. And I would love to hear your thoughts on the theories in the link.

TLDR: part of the reason gondorian dunedain are lesser numenoreans compared to the arnorian dunedain is that they committed at least one genocide and had a culture of racial superiority.

I was rereading the Caradhras passages recently and started to wonder about some questions about their route and how difficult it would have been under normal circumstances for a party consisting mostly of mountaineering novices. (Boromir claims some experience of high places, I guess Aragorn has as well, but maybe none of the others?)

When they abandon the attempt they have not reached very great heights, as they explicitly say, but how far up would their path have taken them? I see the height for Caradhras quoted as 17500 feet, which would mean very noticeable less air pressure than they are used to, but of course their path might be much lower than the summit. But if it reached very high and if we are also take into account snow, rocks in the way, and the need to hide from Sauron's bird spies it looks like it might have been very dangerous even under the best of circumstances.

I just finished reading the 12 volumes of The History of Middle-Earth and wanted to start with The History of The Hobbit, but noticed that there is also The Annotated Hobbit. Is there a particular order to read those or it does not matter?

Something I find interesting in the books is how free will is (generally - the Orks are a problem) a point of absolute fact. People make noble or foul choices.

But freedom of outcome is generally not allowed. Dooms exist, two differing choices will probably lead to the same eventual outcome in the grand scheme with only personal differances.

(The Gollum counterfactual is interesting here - Tolkein surmises that IF Sam had trusted Gollum then Gollum would still die taking the ring from Frodo but instead of an ignoble death and fall he would have chosen to sacrifice himself after the theft to destroy the ring out of a love for Frodo. Nothing changes - apart from the soul of Gollum)

Another interesting one - Glorfindel sees echoes of the death of the Witch-King centuries before it occurs.

This is a descriptive, not proscriptive, prophecy; he can see the shape but not the detail - the Witch-King will die many years hence and it will not be a man who kills him. We know that the "physical" reason for the death was the Numanorian blade not the fighters, only such a weapon could undo the warding charms on the Nazgul. The prophecy is given to dissuade an attack that is Doomed to fail, not necessarily because of "physical" impossibility.

If Eowyn is treated a bit better by Theoden, given an Eored to command rather than a loom, then she is not in disguise with Merry during the battle - how does the Witch-King die?

Does she instead advocate for Merry to be taken openly to war, and they find themselves standing openly by their king and avenging him this time?

Or maybe she is on the other wing of the battle this time, and another takes advantage of the barrow-dagger?

The music dictates the Witch-King dies on the Pellenor, it seems, but maybe the how of the combatants is less prescriptive.

I find the latter fun because of what it means for the fate of Eowen, I find it unlikely she would succumb to her depression in the same way and therefore not know her love for Faramir.

Maybe she becomes a reversed Lancelot of the story of Ellesar - pining away for the lord of the city she now serves in alliance.

In Letter 246, Tolkien writes:

One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end. Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom

So while Gandalf could assume true ownership of the Ring by force of Will, and sever its connection to Sauron, they would be corrupted by its influence into a being worse than Sauron.

But... what if Gandalf tried to take true ownership of the Ring while intending for another member of the Fellowship to immediately run them through?

Yes, the Ring would endure, but the threat of Sauron (and Ringmaster Gandalf) would cease. The Ring in isolation would not be such a great threat, and besides- taking it to Mt Doom in the absence of a dark lord would be much easier.

Alternatively Gollum could be given the Ring back and sent to live in their former abode.

(And it must be acknowledged that such a narrative device would never be acceptable within the ethical framework of Tolkien, heavily influenced by Catholicism)

Edit: I just remembered a bit of relevant information from the same letter.

Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss

I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together – and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo

So from this, we have evidence that one can possess the Ring with the intention of destroying it, if only if they destroy it while in possession of it.

If Gollum can , so should Gandalf- and Gandalf here has the easier task of dying after mastering the Ring, while allowing the Ring to persist, if only temporarily before it can potentially be cast into Mount Doom by others.

… that’s been adopted into every- day speech, and what is it?My candidate tonight is:

“One ____ to _____ them all.”

Anybody have a better one? Or one close to as good?

I wonder if this passage from Unfinished Tales implies a secret journal/account of his own, later discovered by the Hobbits given Tolkien/later beings know about this:

‘Yea, verily, Saruman knows of it. Goods came to him from that land down the road. Spare me, Lord! Indeed I will say naught of our meeting to any that live.’

The Lord of the Nazgûl spared the life of Wormtongue, not out of pity, but because he deemed that so great a terror was upon him that he would never dare to speak of their encounter (as proved true), and he saw that the creature was evil and was likely to do great harm yet to Saruman, if he lived.

-The Hunt for the Ring, 361

To my knowledge, the Elves of Eregion had forged various lesser rings, that seemed to be experiments in the craft of ring making, and they were not part of the twenty Rings of Power held by Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Sauron. But, is it known what happened to these rings? What their fates were, where they were located, or any other information about them, or their uses, purposes, and abilities?

What i mean by that, is since a lot from these books is drafts and something like that. So, is Eriol from "Cottage of Lost Play", canon or not? Or canonical is just "Hobbit" and Lord of the Rings", since those were only works about Middle-Earth he published during his life?