After having written about both the First Kinslaying and the Third Kinslaying, I thought I’d have a look at the many different versions of the Second Kinslaying for good measure. The Second Kinslaying is an extremely old element of the tales of the Sons of Fëanor and of Doriath, and underwent surprisingly few changes over the decades.  

In the earliest version of the Second Kinslaying, in The Nauglafring, central elements of the tale already exist, in this order: (1) One of the Sons of Fëanor inflames the others (here, Maedhros); (2) The Sons of Fëanor demand the Silmaril from Dior; (3) Dior refuses; (4) The Sons of Fëanor attack; (5) This attack is unexpected to Dior; (6) Dior is killed; (7) Several sons of Fëanor are killed; (8) Elwing survives and flees with the Silmaril: 

“Now Maidros, whom Melko maimed, was their leader, and he called to his brethren Maglor and Dinithel, and to Damrod and to Celegorm, to Cranthor and to Curufin the Crafty, and he said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the southern vales, ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes – but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with Melko nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said Maidros, ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’
Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglafring, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglafring unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded win with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘and your hearts be bold enow.’
Then went Curufin unto his brethren, and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [?thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior – and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of elfin folk upon elfin folk, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalië for their sufferings. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon Dior, and Dior and Auredhir [his son] were slain, yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome, took her unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, and they bore with them the Nauglafring, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but a host of Dior’s folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on their rear, and there was a great battle, and Maglor was slain with swords, and [one of the twins] died of wounds in the wild, and Celegorm was pierced with a hundred arrows, and Cranthor beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the brown Elves and the green were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to Maidros the maimed, nor to Curufin and Damrod who had slain their lord; and it is said that even on the day of that battle of the Elves Melko sought against Gondolin, and the fortunes of the Elves came to their uttermost waning.” (HoME II, p. 241–242) 

In The Sketch of the Mythology, the passage is very short, but the central element of the attempts at diplomacy by the Sons of Fëanor is explicitly there: 

“Dior re-established Doriath and grew proud, and wore the ‘Nauglafring’, and the fame of the Silmaril went abroad. After vain bargaining the sons of Fëanor made war on him (the second slaying of Elf by Elf) and destroyed him, […].” (HoME IV, p. 33) 

That is, elements (2), (3), (4), (6) and (7) are there, while (1) and (5) aren’t mentioned. Element (8), meanwhile, is completely changed for a very short while: interestingly, at first, Tolkien had the sons of Fëanor recover the Nauglafring and fight it out for the Silmaril here, with Maglor (!) being the last survivor, but he soon changed this to Elwing escaping with the Nauglafring (HoME IV, p. 33), just like both in The Nauglafring and in later versions. 

In the Quenta Noldorinwa, just like in the Sketch, elements (2), (3), (4), (6), (7) and (8) are there, while (1) and (5) aren’t mentioned.

“But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. The sons of Fëanor, when he would not yield the jewel unto them, came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain, and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.” (HoME IV, p. 134, fn omitted) 

Two footnotes to this passage expand on it: 

For one, it’s made explicit that the Sons of Fëanor requested the return of the Silmaril: “For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior’s pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came, &c.” (HoME IV, p. 135)

Moreover, this is also where a new element (9) is introduced: the death of the sons of Dior, here called Eldûn and Elrûn (“late change”) (HoME IV, p. 135). 

In The Earliest Annals of Beleriand, elements (2), (3), (4), (6), (7) and (8) are there, while elements (1) and (5) aren’t. Moreover, the new element (9) is significantly expanded to include the kidnap and death of the sons of Dior, and Maedhros’s opposition to this. 

“205 The sons of Fëanor hear tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and gather from wandering and hold council. They summon Dior to give up the jewel.
206 Here Dior fought the sons of Fëanor on the east marches of Doriath, but he was slain. Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir fell in battle. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth, were slain by the evil men of Maidros’ host, and Maidros bewailed the foul deed. The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves and taken to Sirion’s mouth, and with them they took the jewel and the necklace.” (HoME IV, p. 307) 

In The Later Annals of Beleriand, it’s pretty much the same, with element (9) now involving Maedhros not only lamenting what his followers had done, but actively trying to find the sons of Dior in order to save them: 

“305 [505] The sons of Fëanor heard tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and they gathered from wandering, and held council together. Maidros sent unto Dior and summoned him to give up the jewel.
306 [506] Here Dior Thingol’s heir fought the sons of Fëanor on the east marches of Doriath, but he was slain. This was the second kinslaying, and the fruit of the oath. Celegorm fell in that battle, and Curufin, and Cranthir. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth, were taken captive by the evil men of Maidros’ following, and they were left to starve in the woods; but Maidros lamented the cruel deed, and sought unavailingly for them.” (HoME V, p. 142, fn omitted) 

From The Tale of Years, two texts are important for this analysis: C and D2. 

Version C is the only one where elements (2) and (3), the Sons of Fëanor verbally demanding the return of the Silmaril and Dior’s refusal, are not explicitly mentioned. However, elements (4), (6), (7), (8) and (9) are there, although Maedhros’s attempt to save the sons of Dior isn’t mentioned here: 

“511 [>509] The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Fëanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldún and Elrún sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion.” (HoME XI, p. 348) (C) 

This changes again with version D2, where all elements are there, in this order: (2) The Sons of Fëanor demanding the Silmaril from Dior; (3) Dior refusing (well, returning no answer); (1) One of the Sons of Fëanor inflaming the others (here, Celegorm); (4) The Sons of Fëanor attacking; (5) This attack being unexpected (“at unawares”); (6) Dior being killed; (7) Several sons of Fëanor being killed; (9) The kidnap of the sons of Dior, and Maedhros’s attempt to save them; (8) Elwing surviving and fleeing with the Silmaril.  

“505 The sons of Fëanor hearing news of the Silmaril that it is in Doriath hold council. Maidros restrains his brethren, but a message is sent to Dior demanding the Jewel. Dior returns no answer.
506 Celegorn inflames the brethren, and they prepare an assault on Doriath. They come up at unawares in winter.
506–507 At Yule Dior fought the sons of Fëanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior’s hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior’s sons (Elrún and Eldún) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [In margin: Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.” (HoME XI, p. 351) (D2) 

I find it particularly interesting how the very old element from The Nauglafring of one of the Sons of Fëanor inflaming the others returned decades later, and find it especially poetic that Maedhros’s role of being the inciter of the Second Kinslaying and the one whose men kidnap and leave the sons of Dior to starve is given to Celegorm. Given the strong parallels between Maedhros and Celegorm, this makes sense: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilmarillion/comments/1c443m3/the_falls_of_maedhros_and_celegorm/ . 

In the published Quenta Silmarillion, all elements are there, with Celegorm the inciter and the one whose men are responsible for the fate of the sons of Dior—unsurprisingly, given the origins of this passage: a mix of Quenta Noldorinwa and versions C and D2 of The Tale of Years (Arda Reconstructed, p. 211). 

“But now the rumour ran among the scattered Elves of Beleriand that Dior Thingol’s heir wore the Nauglamir, and they said: ‘A Silmaril of Fëanor burns again in the woods of Doriath’; and the oath of the sons of Fëanor was waked again from sleep. For while Lúthien wore the Necklace of the Dwarves no Elf would dare to assail her; but now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and of Dior’s pride the seven gathered again from wandering, and they sent to him to claim their own.
But Dior returned no answer to the sons of Fëanor; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came at unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the Thousand Caves; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf. There fell Celegorm by Dior’s hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Elured and Elurín no tale tells.” (Sil, QS, ch. 22) 

However, the version in the published Quenta Silmarillion also introduces two entirely new elements: 

First, the death of Dior’s wife. While Dior’s wife (here named Nimloth) is killed in the published Quenta Silmarillion, this is not the case elsewhere. Dior’s wife is only mentioned in the context of the Second Kinslaying in one text in HoME, and that is version D2 of The Tale of Years, where she (here named Lindis) survives and flees with her daughter Elwing. 

Secondly, the version in the published Quenta Silmarillion introduces the idea that far from a “battle” (The Nauglafring, Earliest Annals, Later Annals) or “war” (The Nauglafring, Sketch) fought between two armies “on the east marches of Doriath” (Earliest Annals, Later Annals, Tale of Years, version D2), it was really more of a massacre that took place “in the Thousand Caves” (= Menegroth) instead. 

I have no idea where these two changes, both of which in my opinion end up making the Sons of Fëanor as a whole feel significantly more culpable, come from. In particular, the element that the Second Kinslaying was a battle fought on the marches of Doriath was consistent throughout Tolkien’s life, and so moving the fighting in the Second Kinslaying to Menegroth is baffling if you go only by the texts published in HoME, Letters and NoME, as well as Concerning The Hoard. 

(Chapter 22 of the published Quenta Silmarillion was particularly difficult for Christopher Tolkien, given that much of what his father had written about it was very old and incompatible with other elements of the story. As Christopher Tolkien writes about the result, “This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him.” HoME XI, p. 356; in general, see HoME XI, p. 354–356 about how the difficulties with and drafting of the published chapter.) 

As an aside, I noticed something else: the Second Kinslaying is treated quite oddly in some late writings (well, a lot of things are). The Shibboleth implies that either the Second Kinslaying wasn’t the fall of Doriath, or that Dior didn’t die in the Second Kinslaying: “there Dior dwelt after the fall of Doriath among the Green Elves of that forest country” (HoME XII, p. 349), referring to Ossiriand. Meanwhile, in The Problem of Ros, another very late text, the Second Kinslaying seems to exist, but not the Third Kinslaying: “Eluréd and Elurín, before they came to manhood, were both slain by the sons of Fëanor, in the last and most abominable deed brought about by the curse that that impious oath of Fëanor laid upon them.” (HoME XII, p. 369) 

Sources 

The Silmarillion, JRR Tolkien, ed Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins, ebook edition February 2011, version 2019-01-09 [cited as: Sil]. 

The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME II]. 

The Shaping of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME IV].

The Lost Road and Other Writings, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME V].

The War of the Jewels, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XI].

The Peoples of Middle-earth, JRR Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, HarperCollins 2015 (softcover) [cited as: HoME XII]. 

Not sure what rune to use for the English letter “I” as used in the world “might”. Seems to me the “I”on the Angerthas Moria would be used to create the “ee” sound as in “ring”.

I find the sudden appearance of the Woses odd and wish they had been mentioned earlier in the book to foreshadow their involvement. They are mysterious, tactically useful and apparently some lived on Númenor.

Their birth came in F.A. 532, only 6 years before the Havens were destroyed by the Feanorians. The Havens were basically the last spot yet conquered by Morgoth, and he had nigh total control of Beleriand for a few years right after. Then follows the War of Wrath, during which I doubt Elves were comfortable starting families in conjunction with their tendency to not marry during war, and the Sinking of Beleriand.

Is this observation accurate, and does it carry any relevance into the Second Age? It's not a topic I've seen discussed before, so if there has been prior discussion on it, please link me to it.

I made a video essay on his ideas about escapism and "faerie" as he presents them in On Fairy Stories. The essay was so packed with information and ideas that I will have to read it a few more times. Anyone here read it? If so what was your favorite part?

https://youtu.be/9gIFsT16wQc

So for this I can think of several canidates:

1. Bilbo, with that Mithril coat of his and the small amount of money he got from saving Erebor. Not to mention he did inherited alot of money from being a Baggins.

2. Dain Ironfoot, he does own the Whole Lonely Mountain, and Erebor technically gives an obvious insane amount of money and gold.

3. Sauron, if we count the One Ring as HIS money, then a weapon that can give you power ups and mind control over foes is insane wealth. He also owns land over Mordor, and has alot of resources to his disposal.

I am sure there are others that could be the richest, like Eru likely, but what is your idea on this?

I was just wondering if there were any other books published that had a single narrative throughout the entire book outside of the Lord of the Rings trilogy and the hobbit. To be clear, I'm aware about the children of hurin but for some reason I can't get a straight answer on if it is a single narrative or a compilation of unfinished, stitched together versions of a story. I am also unclear if Beren and luthien is a compilation of different versions of the same story or has a couple of early versions of it with the majority of the book being the most complete version.

Personally I love them! It makes them feel like a musical in book form, especially in The Hobbit!

One thing I know most casual enjoyers of The Lord of the Rings don't really get is just how hopeless the situation during the War of the Ring actually was. Sauron didn't just have a considerable chances at winning, he was winning. Arnor was completely destroyed by the Witch-King; Gondor was on its last legs, its Steward consumed with despair; Rohan was slowly crumbling under Saruman's ministrations and Theoden's depression; Eriador was almost completely desolate and filled with monsters of various kinds and once-mighty Elves were reduced to at least three small realms (Lothlórien, Imladris and Mirkwood), all the while Sauron's forces were getting everbloated by the levies of the Haradrim and Easterlings fighting alongside his Orcs. The situation was absolutely grim and the characters we see consumed with despair, depression and hopelessness were absolutely right to feel it. Saruman deciding the best course of action was joining Sauron and then trying to manipulate him under his new order, rather than fighting against him directly, makes complete sense; a mind as logical as Saruman's simply couldn't see any alternative.

The Quest to Mordor wasn't some spec-ops mission with a sure ending; it was a suicide-quest which had absolutely infinitesimal chances of actually succeeding. Gandalf himself states it so. The reason it was ever undertook was because there literally wasn't any other option left. Sauron was winning on every single front. Contrary to what some believe, he didn't need the One Ring to succeed, he needed it to make things move faster. It was really just a matter of time before he had won, considering the circumstances. The fact that the only option of the Free Peoples of the Middle-earth was carrying an artefact known for corrupting literally everyone, no matter how great, who exists near it, into the heart of the Sauron's territory right under his nose without him ever finding out about it or claiming it along the way, excellently illustrates what I'm trying to say; the situation was completely grimdark for everyone involved to make them resort to actually doing something as insane as this.

I love it. I love how the Quest to Mordor isn't an epic adventure highlighting the superhumanity of the Hero, but a suicide mission done out of sheer despair and lack of alternatives, whose main executors are small and harmless Hobbits, who absolutely none would suspect of ever being capable of achieving something as important and monumentous as this. In the end, the Quest succeeds, but not because our heroes used overwhelming power and intelligence to overcome their odds, but because they held onto hope. Hope to continue despite the sheer level of brutality and hopelessness around them, hope to fight for what is right, hope to endure the night for the coming of the dawn. Saruman was hopeless and faithless, he couldn't fathom holding what he saw as illogical belief and that led to his belief that joining with Sauron was an inevitable and necessary thing at the moment. But Gandalf held onto the hope, even when his logic told him otherwise, he held onto the belief that Good can ultimately prevail, even in times as unlikely and hopeless as these. In the end, it wasn't about the power, but the steadfastness in one's quest for the invisible Good.

I really wish people would understand just how grimdark the Legendarium can actually get, instead of often reducing it to childlishly naïve story of "Good vs. Evil". Middle-earth often gets as horrible as the Imperium of Man in terms of suffering, despair and destruction.

I recently finished watching Rings of Power, so that made me go and rewatch The Lord of the Rings series, plus The Hobbit series. I decided to read my first Tolkien book. Wow, was this book dark and depressing... I couldn't believe the ending and all the misery that took place.

I've read a little bit online, and it seems this could be his darkest book. Is this true? Anyway, I plan to read Beren and Lúthien next unless someone thinks I should read something else. Looking forward to a response!

It's interesting that Tolkien has Adunaic, language of the Numenoreans, have a rather Hebrew/Semitic feel (he even said that was the influence for it), while it was supposed to be descended from languages of two of the Houses of northern men in Beleriand, and those from something called Taliska (which he modelled on Gothic, a Germanic language). He also made the related langauges of the Northmen of Rhovanion who stayed further behind in Middle Earth clearly based on Germanic (e.g. Old Norse), including that of the later Rohirrim (Anglo-Saxon). And then Westron, which is supposed to be derived partly from Adunaic, is like modern English.

How does he explain Adunaic's sort of oddball nature among all these others in-universe? As an accomplished philologist with knowledge of historical linguistics, he surely must have known that Hebrew was totally unrelated to the Germanic languages that influenced many of those he called related. Adunaic in fact almost has a similar look to Dwarvish of all things, which wouldn't make much sense.

 In The Silmarillion, Tolkien wrote: "When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented."

is there any part of you that thinks he truly wanted to be good?

Showing a profound lack of estel ('high hope', faith) that Melkor was somehow able to change the very fate of Men on a metaphysical level - something that his father Hurin came to understand when interrogated by Morgoth:

"This last then I will say to you, thrall Morgoth," said Hurin, "and it comes not from the lore of the Eldar, but is put into my heart in this hour. You are not the Lord of Men, and shall not be, though all Arda and Menel fall in your dominion. Beyond the Circles of the World you shall not pursue those who refuse you."

All of Turin's actions, one way or another, were driven by this one belief.

All of his virtues and flaws were distorted to fit this belief.

It’s described clearly in The Counsel of Elrond, that the ring can’t simply be thrown away or in the sea, but it has to be destroyed. How did they know, that destroying the ring would destroy Sauron (or enough of him to be an empty spirit)? I can’t remember, if it’s stated anywhere

Edit: so this gain much more traction, than I expected. Thanks for all the answers - I really apreciare it.

What creation myths/fairy tales/classic stories inspired the song of the ainur?

I'm almost at the end of the first LotR book, and it's been more amazing than I thought so far! But I struggle with a couple of parts.

At the part where they reach Caradhras/Redhorn gate, I understood that they kept climbing and climbing, but at the end of the chapter it said they went down and Caradhras defeated them. I'm confused, did they not pass over the mountain to the other side? And if not, it was such an immense journey climbing up, how could they just "go down"? I thought they had went down a sloping path after passing over the mountain.

The second thing is, Legolas says he found a huge "wind-drift" as if it was a good thing. My English isn't very good, but I understood it as some sort of clearing that's blocked from the wind, but when I looked it up online I could not find anything helpful. I know Tolkien uses geographical terms that some are not familiar with (for me examples are glade and ford), is this another one?

A tad unrelated, but in the Hobbit (and I also think in this book) Tolkien says that Gandalf's brows poked out under the brim of his hand. I found this confusing. Can someone explain?

Thank you

Does anyone have any recommendations for art books that depict characters, places, events etc from the first age?

I have John Howe's Middle Earth traveller book and have seen similar things by Alan Lee but most of what I've seen understandably focuses on LOtR or the Hobbit.

Thanks!

I'm thinking of so many examples of him being unfair and unreasonable. That would not be a problem to me at all (I can accept the idea of an arrogant and selfish God), but the narrator in the story keeps telling me that he is good and just, which is annoying because his actions often show otherwise.

For example, in the Tale of Adanel, he leaves humanity to chance (which is fine, he wanted them to learn through experience), but then Melkor shows up pretending to be God, performing miracles, and making people worship him. Illuvatar is offended by this and decides to punish all humans by cursing them with shorter lives and no longer speaking to them. The problem here is, how was humanity supposed to know who was the true God? They knew that someone was helping them and claiming to be God, and they knew no better. But Illuvatar still gets pissed and blames them, even though it was actually his fault for not giving them any realistic way to know that he is God.

This story is analogous to Genesis, however it's not the same, because Adam and Eve actually know God and he has shown himself to them and demonstrated his power to them. So they had less reason to believe in the snake, and they knew it was wrong to do what the snake was asking but did it anyway.

Another nitpick I have is that he lets Melkor freely corrupt and destroy so much of his creation and even challenge the Valar, but doesn't let humans do the same. Instead he destroys an entire continent, killing children, animals, and even Faithful Numenoreans like Queen Miriel when they try.

What happened to free will that he gives to Melkor to even completely destroy his creation, but doesn't give to humans to even try defying the Valar? His double standards are pretty damn obvious. He really thinks that a human stepping on Aman is a worse crime than Melkor trying to extinguish his entire creation? I know the Numenoreans wanted to do more than just step on Aman, however Illuvatar preemptively punished them before they did any more than that. Also, Melkor was allowed to get away with much worse than that.

I find it bizarre that he punishes entire races or countries for the actions of some individuals and doesn't apply the same rules to everyone, but seems to be specially harsh on humans.

Since he interfered in Numenor, doesn't that mean he can interfere in anything else if he wants? If he made one exception, why not make other exceptions such as to stop Sauron in the Third Age?

There are many other things I could mention but I think those are the most obvious offenders.

FOTR chapter 6:

Frodo woke suddenly. It was still dark in the room. Merry was standing there with a candle in one hand, and banging on the door with the other. ‘All right! What is it?’ said Frodo, still shaken and bewildered.

‘What is it!’ cried Merry. ‘It is time to get up. It is half past four and very foggy. Come on! Sam is already getting breakfast ready. Even Pippin is up. I am just going to saddle the ponies, and fetch the one that is to be the baggage-carrier. Wake that sluggard Fatty! At least he must get up and see us off.’

Always makes me snort. Justice for Pip.

Part of me wishes the "you bow to no one" scene from the films was in ROTK just so Gandalf bowing to Peregrin Took was legit lore.

They mentioned Bilbo’s great great uncle invented the game so…

So morgoth was imprisoned for more than 2000 years but what did he do while he was there? How was his cell? did he just sit in his cell for more than 2000 years?

I know The Shire always gets toted up for being a place of homely comforts. But Beorn low key has one of the best home set ups in all of Middle Earth History.

I'm wondering what is everyones favorite epithet, title, etc.? Mine is definitely "Black Sword of Nargothrond" given to Turin thanks to his sword, made from the same material Eol the Dark Elf of Nan Elmoth used to create his black armor. Eol also forged Turin's sword, for those who might not know, though that was back when it was known as Anglachel and prior to being reforged into the more familiar Gurthang.

Have to admit, my reasoning for liking that title is not very complex: I just think it's damn cool. Not much else to say. No but really I like the origin of Turin's sword, and I think its original smith Eol the Dark Elf is an interesting and vile character, unique even amongst other malicious elves, and so I like both the titular sword and the way it sounds.

What's everyone elses? (If this kind of question has been asked before feel free to drop a link to that post)

Im not really a reader and because of that I watch the video's of NOTR. Does one of you guys watch his video's aswell? If you do and read the books can you tell me if everything in his video's is true. I really wanna know.

What’s a good list of books to go along with Tolkiens with? Like map books, fact books, art books, etc?

Conversations of Tolkien lore inevitably circle back to a number of core mysteries - that is, things about Middle-earth that are ultimately unknown, with no definitive ("canonical") answer aside from, perhaps, Tolkien's own speculations in his letters or the HoME. For example (of varying degrees of fan focus):

• Who/what is Tom Bombadil and Goldberry?
• What happened to the Blue Wizards?
• What is the nature and origin of Ungoliant?
• What are the "nameless things" and where/when are they from?
• What happened to dwarves, hobbits, orcs, dragons, trolls, and elves (that never went West) in the later ages?
• Did any other balrogs survive?
• What happened to the ent-wives?
• Dagor Dagorath, yea or nay?
• What is the fate of Men after death (the Gift of Men)?
• What is the nature of the Second Music of the Ainur?

So two questions for further conversation:

1. What else? What other "Middle-earth Mysteries" are there?
2. What is your favorite "answer" or solution to one or more of the mysteries? This is purely speculative, of course, but have fun!

EDIT: I'll add your mysteries, so there's one long list.

When the Fellowship comes to Caras Galadhon, Galadriel asks about Gandalf: ‘Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land. Now tell us where he is; for I much desired to speak with him again. But I cannot see him from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlórien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me.’

But when he comes to life again on Celebdil, she knows it:

‘‘Do not let me fall!’’ I gasped, for I felt life in me again. ‘‘Bear me to Lothlórien!’’‘

‘‘That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you,’’ he answered.

A hypothesis would be that she received a message from one of the Valar, who intervene in this way more than most readers realize. But a more elegant explanation suggests itself: It was a grey mist that hid him from he before. What if the mist was specifically an attribute of Gandalf the Grey, and disappeared when he became Gandalf the White?

From my understanding, The Silmarillion is supposed to be a collection of stories based on the accounts of those who witnessed the events firsthand - either being told to Alfwine the mariner on Tol Eressea (the version going as far back as the Lost Tales), or Bilbo Baggins in Rivendell (with the Translations from the Elvish in the Red Book). However there are some events which it seems to me that no-one could have witnessed.

The part that sparked this thought was the very end of the story in which (according to most of the versions of the story), Maglor and Maedhros debate stealing the Silmarils from Eonwe, raid the camp, and flee with the jewels with Maedhros killing himself in a fiery chasm and Maglor throwing his into the sea and wandering on the shores, never to come back among the people of the elves, or in some version drowning himself. My question is, how does anyone know any of this happened?

Taking the Red Book version, this story is being told in the Third Age by elves who did not return to the west. All of these events happen between elves who were either dead, lost, or otherwise not in Middle-Earth very shortly after they had happened. I had always thought that Eonwe's host was just about to depart when Maedhros and Maglor attacked, and left very quickly after meaning no-one in middle earth knew what had happend. Did they send a message back to tell the remaining elves to explain the situation, or were there eyewitnesses who stayed behind?

Even if that issue can be resolved, there's still the problem of before and after. In The Silmarillion, there is a detailed conversation between the two brothers on whether to submit to Eonwe or steal the Silmarils where again, who is watching this? Surely they're alone here - they wouldn't want anyone else knowing about the plan, and they're alone when they execute the attack. The only people who knew this conversation occured were Maglor and Maedhros themselves. So... is Maglor telling this story? Still - even in the version where he survived, we're supposed to believe he's lost forever which doesn't really work if he's telling the story - in either the Alfwine or Red Book versions.

Then there's the loss of the Silmarils, where both Maglor and Maedhros are absolutely on their own when they do their thing. After taking the jewels they 'fled far away' from Eonwe's camp - and probably in different directions from each other given one ends up in the earth and the other by the sea. There is no-one other than themselves who could have known what happened to each of the Silmarils. Surely nobody was there watching while Maedhros killed himself?

So are we supposed to believe this all really happened in universe and the narrator is omniscient? There are of course the Valar who with Manwe and Varda are pretty much all seeing and hearing, but they don't seem like they would act as a historical source. Besides there are other points where it seems the narrator is not omniscient. The other option is that these details are made up, which is certainly a truly fascinating option to me - but I feel was not Tolkien's inteded reading.

I've previously made the joke that Elrond's ancestry is bananas and cited the following:

He's descended from all three tribes of men.

Descended from all three original tribes of elves and the Sindar.

He's descended from a maiar.

His dad's a star.

Now I'm doubting myself - is the above accurate. Is there a Vanyar or a Haleth in his ancestry? Did I misremember?

Let's say that after getting stabbed by a Morgul Blade and getting brought to Rivendell, Frodo despite all the efforts by Elrond, dies but doesn't turn into a Wraith. Bilbo nows must be ringbearer, who he agrees to out of guilt for what happened to his deceased family member. How far does he make it with the Fellowship to Mordor? And what would the interaction be with them as well as meeting an old foe called Gollum?

Did Tolkien ever talked about this?