This post is a bit of my own personal therapy here, but is there any way that I can make inroads with my child for admitting I screwed up and I was not good enough to him?

Knowing what I know now, I was not good enough. Period. I wasnt. It is my burden to bear, but how do others deal with this? I dont think this is simply "blow it off being a teenager" stuff. He looks at the world he lives in and hates it, and I low key share a lot of his feelings honestly. My wife calls him a "blessing", and he calls us a curse. And god damnit I do not tell my wife this, but I feel we were a curse despite doing our absolute best. We could not protect him from this world. We couldnt protect him from the economy, the politics, the general negative direction of this world.

Talking to a professional, his complaints are not without criticism. Knowing my own faults as a father, I put a lot of this on me. I have failed. Am I able to walk back apologizing for being a part of bringing him into this world? Should I even bother and just let him be?

I am inclined to believe even with my own apprehensions, giving birth to him was a selfish act on our behalf. Am I right, wrong here? why?

I met my wife when we were both 17. We started living together when we were 25.

At 35 we had our first child. I became a stay at home dad and eventually transitioned into teaching at my kids’ school.

We lived near our parents, but as they reached their mid 70s , they were all too old to offer really good support.

What would have been a PERFECT scenario would have been for us to have jumped into having babies at age 25. One of us could have stayed home for 10 years while the other worked. Our parents would have been young enough to provide excellent assistance and then at the age of 35, the person who stayed home would be in a perfect position to launch a “late bloomer” career.

What I see causing problems is a mindset in which people FIRST focus everything on a career and then expect to solve romance and children.

If, instead, we normalized 35 year olds going to school and just starting their career, we could bring a focus back to having babies earlier.

35 is very late to have a first child due to the aging grandparent issue. In addition, I now find myself at age 50 with reduced options for my own second career.

The main drawback to the 1950s mindset of getting married and having kids right after college was that women were not allowed or encouraged to enter the workforce in their 30s.

If we can shift culture to encourage and support 35 year old women to gain professional degrees and enter the workforce then I feel we could return to an older way of doing things without the huge negative consequences for women.

We also need to normalize 25 year old men being stay at home dads, then I think we could find something that works better than the current norm.

I want to read some good natalist blogs. Do you have anything to suggest?

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3665046

Since 1977, U.S. states have passed laws steadily raising the age for which a child must ride in a car safety seat. These laws significantly raise the cost of having a third child, as many regular-sized cars cannot fit three child seats in the back. Using census data and state-year variation in laws, we estimate that when women have two children of ages requiring mandated car seats, they have a lower annual probability of giving birth by 0.73 percentage points. Consistent with a causal channel, this effect is limited to third child births, is concentrated in households with access to a car, and is larger when a male is present (when both front seats are likely to be occupied). We estimate that these laws prevented only 57 car crash fatalities of children nationwide in 2017. Simultaneously, they led to a permanent reduction of approximately 8,000 births in the same year, and 145,000 fewer births since 1980, with 90% of this decline being since 2000.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-diversity-fewer-kids-a-new-study-on-diversity-and-fertility-in-america

http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.4881921

E Pluribus, Pauciores (Out of Many, Fewer): Diversity and Birth Rates

Abstract: In the United States, local measures of racial and ethnic diversity are robustly associated with lower birth rates. A one standard deviation decrease in racial concentration (having people of many different races nearby) or increase in racial isolation (being from a numerically smaller race in that area) is associated with 0.064 and 0.044 fewer children, respectively, after controlling for many other drivers of birth rates. Racial isolation effects hold within an area and year, suggesting that they are not just proxies for omitted local characteristics. This pattern holds across racial groups, is present in different vintages of the US census data (including before the Civil War), and holds internationally. Diversity is associated with lower marriage rates and marrying later. These patterns are related to homophily (the tendency to marry people of the same race), as the effects are stronger in races that intermarry less and vary with sex differences in intermarriage. The rise in racial diversity in the US since 1970 explains 44% of the decline in birth rates during that period, and 89% of the drop since 2006.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/511238/americans-preference-larger-families-highest-1971.aspx

Americans' stated preference for "ideal family size" is larger than their actual family size. In fact, Americans have bigger family preferences today than ever in the last 50 years.

Anecdotally, this has been my experience as well. I live in a HCOL city and know a lot of women in their late 30s who would love to have an additional child, but for financial-, and fertility reasons cannot. It also contradicts some of the common complaints in the media that people don't like children or don't want any.

How do you guys feel about the idea that there is a pointed effort out there to minimize fertility?

I’ve always been a tinfoil hat guy, so I’ve got the tendency to connect dots where maybe they shouldn’t be.

For example, I needed new underwear. Ive worn boxer briefs for over a decade now, but I had heard/been reminded of two things recently that made me want to switch it up:

1. Spermatogenesis is optimal at lower than body temp, so them hugging up against the thighs isn’t doing them any justice

2. That study about there being microplastics in practically every males testicles [that were in said study]

So I wanted loose underwear that were free of any synthetic fabrics.

I went to not one, but 3 stores looking for that simple combo - I was determined. It was way harder than it should’ve been. I know there’s loads of options online, but as far as what’s readily accessible, it’s all nut-hugging plastic fabrics

Then it got me thinking about atrazine in the water, the estrogenizing effect of the standard American diet, and the weird instances of aristocrats seemingly touting depopulation as a good thing.

I had to really, really focus and lock in to get my swimmers up to snuff to get my wife pregnant - and that in itself just seems so unnatural

I’m just going to come out right here and now and say that I think children are precious and I’m glad that there’s a sub on here devoted to people who seem to think so too. It’s been disheartening to me to see how little children seem to be valued in society today and how hard it is to find women who think that children are precious.

I want to find a woman who believes that too. All the women I’ve met who advocate for the opposite seem to be workaholic careerists, narcissists, or really screwed up in the head in some way. The worst ones are the ones who argue against natalism or who actively dislike children and I’ve met a few of those. I want nothing to do with them.

No, having kids isn’t a magic cure all and it doesn’t make you virtuous. There are plenty of people who have kids who don’t really love their kids and shouldn’t have had them because they’re not cut out for it. But it’s extremely hard now to find women who think children are precious, at least in my experience.

Where should I go to find a woman like that? What are some telltale signs I should look for?

I want to have kids one day. I can't imagine living a fulfilling life without children and I would rather have my own than adopt. Whilst I would be able to love an adopted child as my own, I hate the thought of constantly having to compete with biological parent/parents and always being compared to them. And I know this is just not the right mindset to have if you're going to adopt. Plus, I have a familial history of twins so I do feel like one of my purposes is to bring kids into this world.

BUT there is a history of OCD on one side of the family. My great grandma may have had it, my mum has an aunt who has it. My mum has it herself. It is very well managed now, and has been since before she had me, but it is still there. And although we have never been officially diagnosed, my sister and I both have symptoms of it. 27.4% of people with OCD get the episodic type, which means it comes and goes and has long periods of remission. Which is the type I seem to have. But the other 72.6% of people who have it develop chronic OCD. And even though mine is episodic, it is still possible that kids of mine could develop the chronic type. There is a 15-20% chance of children who have a parent with OCD developing it themselves. And a 72.6% chance that IF they do develop it, it would be be chronic.

Would it be cruel/selfish to have children knowing this possibility? Or is it a fair risk to take considering there is an 80-85% chance of having mentally healthy children despite that? I am currently only 19 do it wouldn't be for a while yet. But I have already started to think of ways I could create a good enviourment and avoid other risk factors that would increase the chances of a genetic predisposition developing into a mental illness - in order to give them the best chance. But I still don't know if it would be morally right. There are no guarantees no matter what you do.

Before I had children I don’t think I really understood just how much your children really are a continuation of yourself.

Reddit seems to always show me the AN sub too and I realize reading some of their posts that they often don’t seem to feel worthy of existence.

If someone were to ask me to morally justify having children I think the reality is that I wouldn’t. It’s immaterial. The only question that really matters is are you personally worthy of survival.

If the answer is yes then have children. This extends to your community or nation or ethnic group too.

Do you think your culture, history etc are worth preserving?

A famous African proverb states “it takes a village to raise a child.”

I was born in the West but my parents are from Zimbabwe. We don’t believe raising children can be done with two parents alone. As an African child, you are told your mother’s close friends are your aunties. Basically the concept of “family” is a lot more broad and everyone shares the responsibility of contributing positively to a young child’s life. Even when pregnant, there’s a community of people funneling in and out of your home preparing meals, making sure the dishes are done, etc.

I’ve seen how it’s done in America. People show up for the gender reveal and baby shower and then disappear once baby arrives. Being a new mother in this country is incredibly isolating. Individualism is a vicious cycle. People can’t help people because no one’s helping them. Everyone’s got their own family stressors they need to address. To fix declining birth rates requires a cultural shift. We got away with the nuclear family structure in the 1950’s but life is much more expensive now. I honestly don’t see the situation improving until people realize child rearing is best done communally.

Don't you think this is one the major reason for the collapsing birthrate in the west?

What do you think we could do to entice people to downsize after kids have left?

Edit : I'm European, relating my own point of view. The situation might be different in north America as per the comments I receives.

My example:

Among the ~30 family size houses of my neighborhood, built in 1975 in a good locations for commuting to work, half of the houses are still occupied by the first owners who are now 80+. Their kids left the house 30 years ago. Because of their age, they also do minimal maintenance and upgrades, which also penalize future owners.

In the same time, a have a lot of friends/colleagues who can't project having a family because of the lack of housing opportunities. Affordable houses are far too remote to allow a bearable communting.

I think the situation is very bad for society as a whole. It is a complete waste of space and ressources, family houses near business areas are not infinite. Even companies suffers from it because employees can not move near their offices.

I'm curious what you have personally found to be the most helpful for the health of your family and mental health in general. Government support? family members helping? Friends? What are the things that increase the quality of your life the most and make you happy about your decision to parent? What makes you feel like you could have more kids and be just fine?

Alternative question if you don't feel at ease in your family, what is missing that could improve your quality of life/parenthood?

It's not a secret that nursing homes are full of elder abuse and the elderly who have no family to advocate for them have it the worst. Yet most people don't seem to think of children as a safeguard against that or even try to think of ways the elder care system could be reformed. Instead they passively accept the possibility that they could become victims one day. What gives?

And what's up with the mindset that once your child hits 18 they should move out of the house and stay as far from you as possible for the rest of their life? In other parts of the world, if you raise a child who becomes a doctor you get to crash at a doctor's house whenever you want or have a doctor send you a check every so often. Even without financial benefits, the free advice you can get from having a relative who is an expert in something is useful. 🤔

Edit: to clarify, I do think sending elders to nursing homes is the only option for many people. But kids can go visit regularly and make sure their parents are doing okay. That's a layer of protection against abuse many people don't seem to consider.

This is specifically aimed at US (and Canada) but everyone can join in.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64981965.amp

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2021/maternal-mortality-rates-2021.htm

I think this is the first issue that needs to be addressed if we are to improve the birthrate in our country. We need more midwives and we need better Healthcare.

I know we have a few ideas of how to achieve this. But we need to start pushing our politicians to know how important this is. 👏

I'm not particularly a natalist, but I'm not an anti natalist. I plan to have a couple kids.

But I am curious if natalists kinda follows the same percentages for this issue as the rest of the world or if they skew one way or the other.

As a throw in question, are many of you natalist but child free by choice, or is that not really a thing.

Yeah, we get it. Women don't have as many kids now because of their jobs and the fact they're not being traded as brood slaves like they were back in the good old days. It sucks, I get it. But instead of trying to shit on people and doompost about the end of the species we focus more on positive ways to support families and how families are a good thing?

Passing something on to the next generation? Teaching someone what it means to be alive and helping them grow into someone who will succeed you? Passing on your love and care into the rest of the world?

If your case for women having families is because feminism is cringe then you gotta have some introspection.

I'm what you might call an ultra moderate natalist. The thing is I'm personally childfree. I never want kids and have already taken care of that. I believe strongly in the plurality of destinities and individual choice.

I think its basically obvious that at their healthy, humans want to have families because they want to add to the joy the world and life wants more life and so on and so on. People are happy and fruitful in happy, self sustaining communities. It's human nature to be part of a tribe.

Parenting--raising the next generation--is labor. People like me should be expected to compensate for not contributing to that. Maybe we pay more taxes for benefits we don't enjoy. I don't know the answers but I do know that when the birth rate is so slow 2 things

1. Were gonna have Big Problems
2. This is a symptom of Big Problems already existing

Right, so I'm a natalist right? Natalism-the-Movement is full of weirdos with weird ideas. Peter Thiel was just on Rogan extoling how great Israel is culturally because women in their 20s feel social pressure to keep up breeding to match their friends. The entire natalist movement in America is laced with misogyny. Women got the pill and aren't dependent on men and that's why the birthrate is low (subtext: these things are bad and we need to undo women's rights to save the country). It's all the feminists fault. It's all women's fault for choosing wrong.

No, I'm not stomaching that shit. In fact I believe something directly opposite that forces me to align with the anti natalists right now. What women do with their own lives is their choices. We can criticize those choices but I'm not gonna be part of a creeping movement to undo their rights. If Roe v Wade was constitutionally enshrined I'd feel less uncomfortable but it's not.

Some people here have already figured it out though: what if our entire social structure of atomized suburban workers without extended family and without The Village is the cause? What if young women see the stress and pressure placed on previous generations of women and decide "f*** that"? What if women have been coerced to breed for generation after generation and now that they're finally free to make a choice, there's a huge pent up "f*** that" ripping through. And those women are gonna talk to others and create culture narratives that you're free to choose. And the more pro natalists deploy "you must breed" messages to them, the more the Choosers respond in kind.

Women entered the factories in the 70s but men have only started entering the kitchen. What if women know they're getting a raw deal and are deciding "f*** that"?

What if the entire culture war creates a giant ball of anxiety that makes people not want to breed?

I could go on and on but you see the picture I'm painting. The carrot approach is being tried and failing. I'm much more afraid of the sticks coming out than the consequences of a falling birth rate.