So I've recently become the new moderator after the old one abandoned the sub. For anyone still here, what would you like to see in this sub? Weekly discussion topic ideas? Any specific withdrawal/expense amounts to implement like at /r/leanfire? Rules? Would love to hear your thoughts and ideas for how to make /r/leanishFIRE great again (MLFGA)

I feel like we haven’t had our weekly post for a while. Feel free to discuss anything you like.

Just read this on CNBC. What do you think?https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/11/11/the-4percent-rule-a-popular-retirement-income-strategy-may-be-outdated.html

I just stumbled over a Bill Maher clip, a US comedian and political commentator, from his show where he suggested to build a water pipeline from the East coast to the West coast. Access to water may indeed become a main concern over the next decades. Southern Europe and the Western US are forecasted to become draught-prone, while other areas will experience the downfall of too much water. Yet in other parts of the world water is already a commodity

In the US we are blissfully ignorant with water consumption averaging 12000 gallon per month per family of four (3000 gal per person per month), and this seems a LOT!

So I went and checked my water bill. I only pay $2.56 for my 1 ccf/750gal per month per person. This may be still a lot for lots of people but I do already save water in a variety of ways. Btw, the other $50 is actually to finance the mess of corrupt politicians who bankrupted the local water works :-)

Main water usage in US households is 1. toilet 24% 2. shower 20% 3. faucet 19% 4. laundry/dishes 17%, 5, leak at 12%! other 8%. I guess if you have a lawn in Arizona that'll cost you a lot in addition.

I know leanish people are the good folks and save water for their leanish lifestyle already as well. How do you do it exactly?

Since this subreddit is populated by people ranging from van dwellers to fatFire folks (who come here for the occasional laugh), from drinking less to be able to install a gray water system or having your own reservoir, please, I'd be interested to hear it all :-)

The subreddit says incorporating LeanFIRE principles w/ inflation and rising costs in mind. So with this in mind this labor day I was wondering about how much does inflation and rising cost actually really affect us and our leanishFIRE plans? How do you deal with increased inflation?

I never put too much thought into inflation but just looking at current rents and energy prices shocks me a bit. I recently looked at my spending and it seems that I have somehow adjusted to keep my budget low and/or my leanishFire plans seem sort of immune against rising costs to a certain extend at least. I guess this means my personal inflation rate is way lower than the current 5.4%.

How do you make your FIRE goals rising cost/inflation-proof ?

I feel like we haven’t had our weekly post for a while. Feel free to discuss anything you like.

I am not particularly into status symbol purchases such as high end designer clothes and shoes, pricey jewelry, a luxury car, etc. I sometimes read about people "sacrificing" buying these things in order to save for an early retirement. But it really doesn't feel like a sacrifice to me.

I don't really see it come up as much in the lean FIRE and leanish FIRE communities. It is more common in chubby FIRE and the general FIRE communities. One issue seems to be that some people have an issue with have a high income or high net worth (or both) but not being perceived as rich or well off because they don't have any of the outward signs of wealth.

So I am wondering if leanishFIRE people are more likely to just not care about having status symbol items.

(In order to not sway the results, I will refrain from adding any of my personal commentary on investing philosophy.)

View Poll

I haven't been on reddit and the FIRE subreddits for a very long time but I have learned an awful lot about (frugal) budgeting, the different wealth ranges for FIRE (from povertyFire to fatFire) especially in the US, and about the famous 4% rule. It took me a while to get it but it actually seems a relatively simple concept. I find it more prevalent on the more wealthy FIRE subreddits where often twentysomething year olds with IT jobs and $200-300K+ income in a HCOL area save their money in 401Ks and the stock market and alike and then report how many millions they will retire to at a 3-5% withdrawal rate at, let's say, the age of 29 as an extreme example. All these stories are valid of course, and it seems that's the way it works for most, but there is also a certain degree of repetition.

In the more frugal or even poverty FIRE subreddits I additionally read other more off the beaten path solutions occasionally. There also seem to be more middle-aged or older people maybe in a low paying STEM field, or in a low paying teaching profession, or artists, or just people working from home and not having a 9-5 job. It seems more often combined with ideas from the frugal and simple living subreddits.

Since home costs are a major if not THE major single cost factor in a leanish budget it seems normal that for leanishFIRE people there is also a greater variety of achieving FI by means off house hacking strategies...simply because the funds to afford a home may be low or only be available relatively late in life.

Sometimes the house hack as an integral part of achieving FIRE may be as simple as just living on a permaculture farm in the countryside, in a tiny home, or sharing a home with roommates, or more conventional money-earning routes such as running an AirBnB (or B&B), rehabbing homes in a LCOL, MCOL or even HCOL area, or a BRRR (buy, rehab, rent, repeat) strategy that seems to work better for people without a 9-5 job and income. I think these strategies are somewhat underrepresented and the benefits and risks are less well explained.

So all this to ask if, besides the 4% strategy, there are any deliberate and off the beaten path strategies to ACHIEVE leanishFIRE that people may want to share?

It's been a long journey. I started saving for retirement in 2008 and ended the year with just over $5000. I reached $100k in 2013. I hit $250k last year. Now I'm here. When I started, it felt like I'd never get anywhere. Thankfully, the milestones keep coming faster and faster. Here's hoping the next $500k comes much faster than the last.

Housing is one of the biggest factors in the overall FIRE picture. People think of housing in different ways. Some want to create a place of refuge, a castle, a happy place -- and they are willing to pay for it. Others want to live in a specific location and are less picky about the house itself. Still others want to minimize costs, so they prioritize having a roof over their head in a LCOL as they focus on other things in life.

As for me, I have to be in a specific location for the next several years. I am not that fussy about the housing itself. I am trying to minimize costs by buying a small place that won't require a lot of maintenance. Hopefully that will propel me along to leanfire a bit quicker. I'd rent if I could, but where I am, the math works in favor of buying. I am willing to live with shared walls and to give up square footage, premium finishes, and other niceties if it means reaching financial independence sooner.

What's your philosophy on housing?

I 40M have 4 kids and a lovely wife. I contribute 11% to my works 401k and my work takes out another 4% for a pension that will pay ~20+k a year past 67 years old. But my plan to FIRE is to invest about 36k a year in rental properties. I already purchased one duplex which has an ROI of 8% but the rent is well below market rate of rent. It will return 13% next year and 16% the year after that with rent increases. I expect this property and all of my rental properties to eventually have an average of 20% ROI on the down payments. So for my FI I am focusing on saving and buying rental properties. Am I being dumb by putting all my eggs in one basket? Thanks

I am very fortunate now to be close to leanfire for most cities in the USA. A large part of this is due to spending the bulk of my career in an HCOL with correspondingly high average salaries and having multiple roommates well into my 20s to cut living expenses down to MCOL levels.

I have no intentions of doing RE anytime soon except maybe taking a sabbatical with my partner and traveling a bit next year. However I've realized that it's virtually impossible to be truly FI in a HCOL city unless you are a corporate executive investment professional making high six figure salaries, got lucky with investment, inherited a ton of money, or work as an average professional for at least 15 years with low six figure salaries, or if you get super lucky with market timing and the housing market crashes right as you moved your equities into cash and you were looking to buy.

The good part of HCOLs is that other than housing expenses and labor costs, everything else is mostly priced the same. A playstation 5 is still $500 no matter where you are in the country, ribeye beef is by and large still $8 to 12 a pound or so. So long as you can nail down housing costs to a minimum with roommates, and don't go out every night, the geographic value of salaries in superstar cities will far dwarf any cost savings you get from living in mcol or lcol cities during your accumulation phase.

The problem though is that because of the astronomically high housing prices in HCOLs, if you do wanna RE you prolly can't reach it for many many many years even as your savings skyrocket through the roof. Additionally because the more time you spend in any city, the more friends you have the more roots you put down and the more hard it becomes to leave, HCOLs become a "trap" of sorts. You could move to Santa Fe and live a bohemian life, biking around town and making nice art while no longer treading the capitalist treadmill. But friends are harder and harder to make as you get older and I think if I did actually do that my overall quality of life would drop significantly as my social interactions decrease. Thus I am now "trapped" due to the friend and familial ties that bind. Social handcuffs if you will as opposed to golden handcuffs.

For me though, since I have no intentions of RE anytime soon, just knowing that I can FI somewhere else in the country and not need to work another day is enough of a psychic boost. It helps me be supremely tranquil and secure during work even if I know I need to work another decade to afford a condo in Manhattan with nice windows, and then continue working at least a coastfire job just to afford the taxes and HOA fees on said condo.

What do you all think is the best way to save up for a big purchase when the timing is uncertain without losing too much time in the market? This is specifically a question about buying a car, but it also pertains to other big anticipated expenses (down payment on a house, big upgrades to a home, etc).

I'm pretty close to maxing out my tax-advantaged accounts this year, and I'm also looking to buy a new-to-me electric car in the next 6 months. There's no rush - my current hand-me-down car still runs although the clock is ticking with 230,000 miles on the odometer - but with how much the price of used vehicles has increased, I'm wondering what method makes the most sense to purchase a $10,000-$15,000 used vehicle.

My SO, who has a much greater risk tolerance than I do, suggested that the most cost-effective way to make a big purchase might be to buy the car in cash using a margin loan from my taxable investing account for all or part of the total cost of the vehicle. The fees are much lower than a conventional auto loan, and I'd be keeping more of my money in the market than if I just saved up for a large down payment on the car (or the whole price of the car) in cash in a savings account. There are obvious downsides to taking out a margin loan, though, even if it'd be a smallish percentage of my overall taxable investing account and not likely to be subject to a margin call.

What method would you all recommend for saving for this kind of expense? Is taking out a margin loan to buy a car completely crazy? Would I be losing out investment-wise by saving $10k or more in cash in anticipation of this expense? Is it worth buying a more expensive used car at all, or should I just get a $3000 beater car I can pay for up front? Am I right to avoid an auto loan at all costs, or is this exactly what auto loans are for?

I'll be honest, this is my first time buying a car, and somehow this feels more overwhelming than buying a house! At least a house appreciates in value most of the time. And there's a much more leeway in personal preference when it comes to car shopping. It's hard for me to tell what is good financial sense vs what is lifestyle creep for this decision, so I'm hoping you can give me some sound advice!

My post was deleted from the leanfire sub for not being lean enough so I am posting here from now on.

I am firing in two weeks with annual CAD expenses of $20k-$27k depending on how my portfolio does in the first 10 years. This is approximately $16k-$22k USD.

I will be slow traveling through cheap countries for the first 5-15 years - Mexico, Jamaica, Colombia, Argentina, Brazil, Thailand, Philippines, etc. I will also be taking courses and spending ~40 hours a week on building up my technical skills (enjoy the challenge and love learning). There is also a fair chance that I may make money from all of this learning (not built into FIRE plan).

I am considering doing monthly updates about my fire journey on this sub. What would you like me to share in these monthly updates? Or is monthly too much and I should do annual updates?

Since technically I am not lean and I shared my numbers in another sub comment asking about spending and budgets, I thought I might share here. I started caring about FIRE last year but only this year did I really start tracking numbers. My hope is that this is the first step to really understand what I need to FIRE and take it from there.

The spending from last year was tracked on my mint account. As of right now I am 35, single, don't have any kids or real estate, nor do I plan on that so those things are not part of the calculations. I live in New York City. These are annual numbers in the first table.

2021 Income after taxes: ~75k

In the last few months of tracking I've averaged:

Current Debts (Reducing this by 1k monthly)

• Credit Card: 3k
• Student Loan: 24.5k
• Total: 27.5k

My current Savings & Investments (Increasing this by 1.7k monthly)

• E-fund: 6k
• Taxable: 51k
• 401k: 47k
• ROTH: 2K
• RSU: 61k
• Crypto: 45k
• Total: 212k

So far I am hoping to FIRE with an annual spend of 26k .. but with all the discussions of inflation and trying to be safe and cautious, I am considering using 30k instead. The main reasoning for this reduction in spending is because I plan to move out of NYC to a LCOL area, I am seriously considering expatFIRE to a country I have family ties to. I have considered using 3.5% instead of 4% to be safer or to just work an extra year to have a nice cash cushion for when I finally pull the plug.

My last calculations gave me the minimum I need to save from using 26k and 4% is 650k, so for now I am aiming for that lately I'm feeling more like 700 or 750 but the entire point of tracking and budgeting is to really understand my spending and make a more informed decision about what my number should really be after this year. I am really trying to spend less but I think my area is quite expensive so this works for now but I definitely wish I could spend less! I'm trying to make the best of living in an expensive area but being able to have a decent paying job is one perk of it. I plan to stay here in order to continue making a good income... unless somehow I can figure out remote work and move. I think I can FIRE in about 5-7 years if I knock out the debt and move that expense to my savings. Thanks for reading!

EDITED: table showed percentage of income, it is actually percentage of expenses. Typos.

Hello everyone

Is anyone here from EU or planning to retire there?

The 4% SWR was calculated using the S&P500 and US Bonds. The USA outperformed every other country in that period of time so by investing in VT we have to expect lower returns already.

If we plan on retiring in EU we probably cant use US bonds (i dont understand why but so i was told) because of currency risk. Therefore we will be using EU bonds, which will also be lower yield.

Does this mean, that a 4% SWR is not safe for non Americans?

What Bonds and SWR are you planning with?

Hi! I know a lot of folks who are leanFIRE-ish who are interested in the idea of living in their car or a van.

I've been doing this now for 5 months (more if you count my 2ish month test run in the fall). I have traveled roughly 15,000-20,000 miles so far around the country, so a heavy emphasis on constant travel rather than

Here's what my budget has VERY ROUGHLY looked like with no planning or limiting, just spending on what interests me.

Initial Costs

• Car - $10,285 (2013 Prius V, NYC taxes)
• Build/materials - $1849.52
  • Wood to build out a bed/fridge/table, etc
  • Camping gear
  • A jackery to power my laptop
  • Some stuff for the pup (new booties, a no-spill water dish)
  • Other odds and ends
• A new phone (broke my phone the same day I got my car...) - $500

Monthly Averages

This is really rough - I have not done a good job of keeping up with mint at all. But I think it'll give a general idea.

All spending - $891/m (does not count above)

• Gas - $232/m, though that includes 2 months where gas was a lot lower...now averaging $307
• Food, all - $301/m...highest was $615, lowest was $197
  • Fast food- $31/m
  • Groceries - $158/m
  • Restaurants - $63/m
  • Alcohol/bars - $18/m
  • Unspecified - $30/m
• Entertainment/shopping - $142/m
  • Entertainment wise, this includes things like dolphin tours, cave tours, state park fees, museum fees, concerts/shows, etc
  • Shopping wise includes things like new shorts when mine split, binoculars, gifts for my mom, etc
• Other
  • Car insurance - I pay once/6mo ~$70/m
  • Phone/Internet - I use visible for $25/m

​

Based on the above spending, I should be spending about $25k for the year - perfectly leanish.

I will likely spend more than this, though, as I'm planning on spending a month in NYC in the fall which will be pretty expensive. So maybe up to $30k this year.

AMA :)

What dollar amount today would equal $20k in the year leanfire made that rule? Some say inflation will run 5% in this year alone

As someone who was new to r/leanfire but also learned a lot and changed some habits I’m thinking this will be the absolute perfect group for myself and my goals.

Thanks!