Hard decision...

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Speaking of the first day of Kokuyou battle ..... who do you all think won that day ? Was it actually the Zhao who proceeded to fortfying the central hill earlier than expected, or was it Qin that overtook it later that day ? Hence the second day, both Qin and Zhao were equally fighting over their main target ( the central hill ), even though the Hi Shin and Koku'ou units were pushing their opponents far ahead and had the advantage over Zhao.

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Ain’t not fucking way Kanki died and lost that. How the fuck does the sword of a great general just fuckings breaks like that ? And when they clashed he barely sliced his face like come on man

Why do we seems to never see crossbows again? They were there around ch 31. Surely they should exist in any of Qin's army (If they exist then my bad)

Everyone saying Ou Goat is gonna lose to Riboku like Ou Fraud, but Ou Goat, Shin and Ou Sperm along with the mountain king will beat Riboku

Just wondering if anyone has insight on the results. I'm told that the Qin loses but in the manga Sei and co mentions how important it was to win and they can't afford to lose. Knowing that Ousen is defeated at the battle of Hango, how much of a setback is this? What kind of consequences occurred after this battle? It's such a weird conclusion unless Zhao is equally battered that they can't capitalize on this victory but Riboku was so certain that he would completely annihilate the Qin army this time and so bad that Qin can never wage war ever again for unification. Sei and Riboku seem so certain that if the battle of Hango will decide whether the unification dream will be made or broken after the results but we know this isn't true since Qin eventually does unify China and defeat Zhao in a few years. What were they really talking about then?

Why would you want the conclusion to be the exact same situation as last arc: riboku defects main army->side army take city->instant better position. Personally i think ousen will do something but anything would be better than taking hango right now imo.

Seika guys deserve some much needed appreciation imo. Keeping RBK and his shenanigans aside what these guys achieved is nothing less than phenomenal (while at a 40000 numbers disadvantage). General for general I think in terms of martial might alone they are in a league of their own while their strategic prowess remains largely unknown (GKS showed some). 5 out of 6 guys totally lived up to the hype. (You know which one I'm skipping)

Stats-

Strength Leadership Intelligence

SBS 97 95 90

Kansaro 91 88 91

Jiaga 93 85 78

JKR 91 87 86

GKS 90 86 92

Fuuon 89 83 80

Inconsistent as they are, I'm one of those who place a little degree of reliance on them to give a general view of the capabilities of individuals.

​

I was curious if shin will have an op general in the future when he becomes a great general. Please dont say the general's name if shin will ever have one

Ousen’s Spy Circle Within Zhao

王翦惡之，乃多與趙王寵臣郭開等金，使為反間。曰：「李牧、司馬尚欲與秦反趙，以多取封於秦。」趙王疑之，使趙蔥及顏為代將，斬李牧，廢司馬尚。

“Ou Sen hated Ri Boku and used much gold to bribe the king of Zhao’s favorite ministers, including Kaku Kai. Then he used them to subvert Zhao. They told the king that Ri Boku and Shiba Shou planned to turn against Zhao with Qin’s help, for they had been promised large fiefs if they did so. The king of Zhao grew suspicious of his two generals and sent Chou Kotsu and Kan Shuu to relieve them of their commands. He then executed Ri Boku and cast out Shiba Shou.”

- Liu Xiang as he records how Ousen infiltrated and violently twisted the Zhao Court to do his bidding (Zhan Guo Ce: Strategies of Qin)

Espionage is implementing a parasitic faction within a government. By nature, it is harmful and the faction consists of spies, double agents, corrupted politicians, liars, and traitors. This parasite exists by infiltrating the legal state and twisting it to its own purposes.

The Best Generals Use Espionage

故明君賢將，能以上智為間者，必成大功，此兵之要，三軍之所恃而動也。

(Sunzi’s Art of War: On the Use of Spies)

So only a brilliant ruler or a wise general who can use the highly intelligent for espionage is sure of great success. This is essential for military operations, and the armies depend on this in their actions.

Ousen essentially installed a secret government within the Zhao State. The Qin General gains Zhao ministers, like Kakukai, as powerful benefactors. With the help of the traitors, Ousen’s network becomes influential enough to corner Riboku into a political deathtrap. That’s how Riboku lost.

“Zhao shall, without a doubt, instantly collapse.”

Secret Alliance between Kakukai’s Faction and Qin

秦多與趙王寵臣郭開金，為反閒，言李牧、司馬尚欲反。

Qin bribed the King of Zhao's trusted vassal Kaku Kai with cash to act as a subversive agent, and suggest that Ri Boku and Shiba Shou wanted to rebel.

- Sima Qian as he labels Kakukai as an agent of Qin (Shiji: Chapter 81: Biographies of Lian Po and Lin Xiangru)

In order to survive, all spies are forced to be pathological liars. If they are bad at lying, this is suicide. That’s why the life of a spy is so dangerous. If they are caught lying, they will die.

Kakukai would be considered an “Inside Spy” according to Sunzi’s Art of War. By nature, “Inside Spies” are traitors, and Kakukai betrayed the King of Zhao.

內間者，因其官人而用之。

(Sunzi’s Art of War: On the Use of Spies)

Inside spies are hired from among enemy officials.

“Inside Spies” are often unhappy officials who are dissatisfied with their careers. This is why they are so easily bribed and exploited.

Kakukai would also be considered a “Dead Spy” as he spreads false and confusing information. Interestingly, “Dead Spies” have their name because if the information is confirmed false, they will be executed.

死間者，為誑事于外，令吾間知之，而傳于敵。

(Sunzi’s Art of War: On the Use of Spies)

Dead spies transmit false intelligence to enemy spies.

It is unknown whether he truly knew “Riboku’s Rebellion” was false, and it is unknown if he was punished. However, all “Dead Spies” are destined to die from their lies, so Kakukai’s death is almost guaranteed.

All Spies are Liars?

Riboku’s Weakness

趙王乃使趙蔥及齊將顏聚代李牧。李牧不受命，趙使人微捕得李牧，斬之。廢司馬尚。

“The King of Zhao sent Chou Kotsu and the Qi general Kan Shu to re­place Ri Boku. Ri Boku refused to accept the orders. Zhao sent a man to secretly arrest Ri Boku, and when he was captured, beheaded him, and stripped Shiba Shou of his post.”

- Sima Qian as he records Riboku refusing his king’s order for unknown reasons; he was later executed for his disloyalty. (Shiji: Chapter 81: Biographies of Lian Po and Lin Xiangru)

The worst mistake Riboku made was staying to keep fighting for Zhao during the Battle of Kantan. Simple slander didn’t kill him; his disloyalty to the king caused his downfall. Refusing the king’s orders is an act of rebellion.

With that said, I must bring up the question: why did Riboku refuse his king’s orders? Pride? Greed? Desperation? ? Impulsivity? Who knows really. Perhaps he wanted to win the war. Or maybe he was manipulated into doing it. The real reason is never recorded. My heart tells me that Riboku did it to protect his home, but that’s just my speculation. The truth isn’t so straightforward.

The key to finding Riboku’s weakness is to figure out why Riboku refused his king’s orders. Afterall, it was what got him killed.

In the end, Riboku knew the choice he made. He was stepping outside of office. He knew his death was guaranteed because he purposefully disobeyed his king.

A loyal man should never disobey his king.

Riboku's Motivation

This is the first time we saw Ousen in a terrible situation.

What do you think our boy will do ?

Will he show why he is one of the best ?

Supposing Kisui and Batei returned to Rigan after the battle of Shukai Plains, they are currently encircled by Qin. Rigan city lies to the South-East of Kokuyou Hills, which lies West of the Taigo mountain range that used to separate Qin from Zhao. So either Rigan lies West of the mountains or it lies within the mountains. Either way, Qin has captured Retsubi, Gyou, Atsuyo, and Roumou, cities which lie south, south-east, east, and north of the mountain range. In other words, Qin has already captured west and south western Zhao. While we haven't seen them capture each individual mountain city, they are surrounded by the occupation and will have no choice but to surrender.

Kisui is a lord who cares about Rigan first and foremost. If Qin can place Rigan under good care, there is no reason he should remain loyal to Zhao and fight a pointless battle. As we saw with Akou, Ousen is known to convince generals of fallen states to fight for his cause. With three of his commanders now gone, he desperately needs to strengthen his retinue. Kisui is a man that can be convinced by a greater cause, which is definitely something Ousen has, so I think Ousen will try to recruit him in the (near) future.

Who would win if Zhao and Qin had an all out war with every soldier they have

At the Battle of Kankoku Pass, Qin had about 250.000 to 300.000 soldiers, plus the soldiers they had on the borders and in the cities, along with the Mountain tribes, Qin probably had 350.000 to 400.000, maybe 450.000.

In the Battle of Gian, Zhao had 310.000 Soldiers, they also had a lot of soldiers in their Capital and most likely soldiers at their borders and other cities. I would say Zhao could have 400.000 - 450.000 Soldiers

So Zhao has a bit more Soldiers with around 450.000 amd Qin having 400.000. Qin has won battles with odds much worse so I think they could handle that

I would use the prime version of Qin and Zhao for that. I see Qins prime before the Zhao Retaliation Arc and Zhaos prime before the Koku You Campaign Arc

I won't list every importand character from these versions because that would be way to long, so I only list the importand Generals and Officers.

Qin at that time has: Moubu, Tou, Yotanwa, Kanki, Ousen, Shin, Ouhon, Mouten, Akou, Shiryou, Kyoukai, Ten, Shouheikun and Heki

Zhao has: Riboku, Keisha, Houken, Shibashou, Kan Saro, Ji Aga, Bananji, Gyou'un, Gaku haku ko, Chou Ga Ryuu, Batei and Kisui

In conclusion I think Qin would win this but with very high difficulty. Qin has 5 Great Generals while Zhao has only 3 and a Great General is much more worth than multiple normal Generals or Officers. Also I do think Qin has the stronger fighters with Characters like Moubu, Shin, Tou or Yotanwa.

But what do you guys think

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Beast wars!

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Is Kaishibou actually as strong as Renpa as Genpou claims right here?

I know stats aren't everything but Kaishibou has a pretty mediocre strength stat of 91 while Renpa has one of the highest at 97. I find that highly unlikely considering that would make Kaishibou as strong as guys like Man'u and Gaimou who I think are on a level above Kaishibou.

if in manga, shin saw two guy fighting and said "this x guy might be stronger than kyou kai"

but hara release stats of x and said the strength of x is "91"

so what is more credible

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I might be wrong but it looks like they redid the anime for season 2. It looks much better than what I remembered.

She made it through all the death flags people Sorry to say.

In this scenario Riboku kills Makou and runs away but Shin just lets him go without a chase. He continues on towards Kisui who has nothing to stop Shin or KyouKai from killing him because the two would more than likely be together. They charge Kisui’s HQ Batei probably stops and fights one of them but A: Wouldn’t be able to beat whoever he stopped fast enough to stop the other from killing Kisui or B: Losses as well and dies or is gravely injured. In either of these situations the Rigan army would be forced to retreat lest being wiped out. The Makou army more than likely wouldn’t be organized enough to confidently chase and finish them due to Makou’s death giving Zhao’s right wing a night of preparation. Riboku seeing the state of the Rigan army would be forced to send reinforcements from either his center army or one of Zhao’s left wings armies. The worst case surprisingly would be if Gaku Ei’s army getting sent to the left is the worst case due to him being the weakest of the armies on Zhao’s Left wing he still gets one shotted by Shin who is more than likely left there due to the Qin’s left wing looking like the pincering side but now is not enough help on Qin Right wing to stop the unexpected might of Bananji, ChouGaryu, and GyouUn who would fight more aggressively and were looking good until Shin’s interference saving OuHon. With no Shin I can’t see the right wing stopping that trio and both sides might pincer in the same day but now not only with Bananji but ChouGaryu and GyouUn too who has a far more likely chance at getting to Ousen than Shin and Mouten do. The best case for Qin is GyouUn or Bananji is sent over or troops from the center so the balance of danger is somewhat evenly distributed on both sides but again that right wing of Qin still looks shaky in comparison and might still fall first.

I know quite a few people here read historical spoilers

And even in the manga Ousen has achieved the greatest victory out of any Qin general during the campaign for Gyous

So isnt it weird that so many people here seems to shit on him all the time in favor of Yotanwa or Tou ?

Due to historical facts Ousen will easily be the best of the current 6GGs with Moubu being the 2nd best and Yotanwa/Tou being very very far away from these two unless Hara takes so huge liberties

So why the hate against Ousen? I dont think he'll ever be better than Riboku but he's probably ending the story with the most achievements

I just read on wikiPedia about Li Mu that this is how he meets his end !

!The plan succeeded. Li Mu was expelled from his position and soon thereafter either executed or forced to commit suicide on the king's orders. Link !<

I hope Hara doesn't go this way, I mean I would definitely feel really sad about it ! Also it would seem our Main Protagonist won't get chance to get Riboku in !

No new chapter and I'm bored so let's speculate.

Renpa

Left wing- Rinko and Genpou

Center- Renpa and Kyou En

Right- Kashibou

Shibashou

Right- Gakushou and Jyoukaryou

Center- Jiaga and SBS

Left- Kansaro

Armies approximately equal for all wings.

Sanyou Area