/r/etymology

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Discussing the origins of words and phrases, in English or any other language.

Etymology is the study of the history of words and idioms, their origins, and how their form and meaning have changed over time.

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Rules

1. Posts should be informative

Word origins posted here should have more to offer than just a link to a dictionary definition. Try to capture what's interesting about the etymology.

2. Keep it relevant to etymology

Posts should be on-topic or meta. As well as the history and development of words, on-topic content also includes the origin of phrases, which deal with changes in meaning.

3. Perform basic research

As a courtesy to other users of the community, before posting a question, please use the resources in the subreddit sidebar to try to find an answer.
If you still have questions, by all means post here; if your question is totally solved, consider sharing the answer with the community instead!

4. Disputed origins should have a warning

Connections and word origins that are speculative, disputed, or otherwise specious should be shared with wording that reflects the uncertain origin to avoid being misleading.

5. Be nice

r/etymology is for civil discussion. Keep your posts and comments friendly and remember the human.

6. Don't use AI as evidence

Language models are an emerging tool that can often give assertive but specious answers. Please do not cite or rely upon AI tools when asking or answering questions on r/etymology.


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/r/etymology

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11

Were there multiple definitions for “fowl” back in 17th Century English?

Recently I found an interesting bit of thanksgiving history. The only firsthand account of it comes from a 1621 Letter from pilgrim Edward Winslow:

“Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together, after we had gathered the fruits of our labors; they four in one day killed as much fowl, as with a little help beside, served the Company almost a week, at which time amongst other Recreations, we exercised our Arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and amongst the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five Deer, which they brought to the Plantation and bestowed on our Governor, and upon the Captain and others. And although it be not always so plentiful, as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want, that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.”

I was curious, he never used the word “Turkey”, but he talks quite a bit about “fowl”. Was the word “fowl” in 17th century English used to denote any kind of bird you would go hunting for? Or did it denote a specific kind of bird?

14 Comments
2024/12/01
22:56 UTC

0

Why is “Rhine” spelled with a silent e?

Other languages spell the river’s name with a vowel digraph, not two monographs.

German: der Rhein

French: Rhin

Dutch: Rijn

Limburgish: Rien

English: Rhine

The word has always been monosyllabic. Why?

11 Comments
2024/12/01
12:09 UTC

65

Why is the word for "black" so similar across many proto-languages? Proto-Indo-European *krsnos, Proto-Turkic *kara, Proto-Mongolic *kara, Proto-Japonic *kuro, Proto-Eskimo *qirner, Proto-Dravidian *kar...

36 Comments
2024/11/30
22:52 UTC

38

Are the English word "ceiling" (the top part of a room, opposite of "floor") and the Latin word "caelum" (sky) related?

Deriving the word for "ceiling" from a word meaning "sky" is clearly possible, that happened in Chinese "天花板".

18 Comments
2024/11/30
22:32 UTC

4

The etymology of English County names, explained

4 Comments
2024/11/30
10:20 UTC

66

Does the fragment phrase 'the more you know' imply a second clause?

The more you know, the less you don't!

I found the more you know the higher you go on Wiktionary but not well-sourced. I know it's a famous American TV children's spot. I always wonder if it's like a cut-off phrase. It feels like it's set up as a cue for the listener to finish the sentence, but they don't actually have to.

Whilst I'm at it, is there a word for a synecdoche phrase, such as "great minds!", "desperate times..."? Ellipsis? A different word?

Edit: ANSWER! I'll take "The smarter you grow" as its original implication. See here 🌠

It's interesting that the phrase's invocation is now quite entirely divorced from this.

51 Comments
2024/11/30
01:03 UTC

80

Most English speakers think R.I.P. mean "rest in peace" (which it obviously does), but it first became popular in Ancient Rome where it meant the same thing in Old Latin -- "requiescat in pace".

26 Comments
2024/11/30
00:42 UTC

0

What is the origin of "fine" in "fine print"?

I understand the meaning of fine print, but want to believe the fine-ness refers to the quality of the printer / printing press. Is there any interesting story here?

3 Comments
2024/11/30
00:42 UTC

60

Cardigan sweaters are called so after James Brudenell, the 7th Earl of Cardigan who led the famous Charge of the Light Brigade, an essentially suicidal cavalry charge against fortified Russian positions in the Crimean War.

13 Comments
2024/11/29
23:51 UTC

70

"Divan" and most Romance words for customs ("douane", "dogana", "aduana") ultimately come from Sumerian 'dub', meaning tablet.

From what I discovered on wiktionary and wikipedia, I found this to be a fascinating etymology.

Sumerian 𒁾 'dub' led to Akkadian 'tuppum' extending the meaning to 'document, letter'. In Old Persian it was combined to '*dipi-vahanam' to mean 'document house', resulting in دیوان ('divân, dêvân') in Persian. This holds various meanings such as 'council of state, court house, collection of poems and couch'. From what I gather the last meaning has entered European languages through Turkish because of the traditional sofas found in official buildings there.

The meaning of customs (house/duty) has entered Romance languages (and Dutch) by the way of Arabic from what I can only suppose the idea of a building with documents where official business is conducted.

11 Comments
2024/11/29
20:38 UTC

12

How are religions and the people who follow those religions named?

So this is something I've gotten very curious about. Looking back at all the commonly practiced religions, I wanted to know if there's a method of how they and their followers were named.

I think I recall reading that Christianity came from an old word meaning "anointed one" and a common suffix from I think Latin. But I'm completely unsure on why the followers are called Christians.

I wonder similarly for other religions and faiths like Catholicism, Judaism, etc.

How were religions named, and how were their followers named?

31 Comments
2024/11/29
13:13 UTC

7

English infinitive

Why does english uses the preposition "to" to form the infinitive? How old it dates?

8 Comments
2024/11/29
11:12 UTC

0

Latin: Triumph & Triumvirat | Etymology or 'false friend'?

I just noticed this similarity and found no sources hinting at it. Most sources say the word Triumph in Latin was borrowed from the greek 'thriambus' from a hymn to dyonisis with no older accounts hinting at its origin.

However I find it an oddity that the word triumph seems so similair to the roman word triumvirar (tres viris)

especially rhat the word contains the prefix 'tri'.

I'd imagine some correlation, but without evidence it remains just a theory.

4 Comments
2024/11/29
09:18 UTC

11

How exactly did the Latin word "ascribere" ("ad"+"scribere") change its meaning from "to write at the end of some list" to "impute" or "attribute"? I suppose Croatian "pripisati" is a calque of that, rather than a paralel construction, right?

3 Comments
2024/11/29
05:19 UTC

24

WOOO!... ?

This may be a little weird for this sub because it's not exactly a word, but why is the "woo" noise the default cheering sound for encouragement or excitement? Is there any record of when this started! Is it different in different langues? Is it just an American thing?

Why is "woo" over other prolonged vowel sounds?

8 Comments
2024/11/29
04:33 UTC

28

SciFi origin of "shape"

I've been reading some older science fiction, Robert Heinlein specifically. I'd apparently become accustomed to the term "shape" to mean "set off on a course for" like "shape for Earth" in the context of a space faring vessel leaving port for its destination.

I'm curious if that use of the word has roots in naval terminology or was made up just for SciFi. The dictionary definitions I've found don't give any indication and it's such a common word is hard to Google.

Any insight?

4 Comments
2024/11/29
04:27 UTC

0

Drug

Why is the word drug drug. It literally sounds bad like UGHHH drUGGGG

4 Comments
2024/11/28
21:03 UTC

44

Where did the term “cakewalk” come from?

It makes sense as to why it means something is super easy, I guess, but I’ve always wondered where the term originated from. Was walking with cake a fairly common practice back in the day? Anybody got any info?

58 Comments
2024/11/28
19:48 UTC

14

Are there any connections between ᛝ and 𐩯 ?

I really don’t know where else to post this, I’m not sure this is the right sub as it’s more about letters than a word but I’ve tried looking it up and I can’t seem to find anything on this. Even ai has been unhelpful and it doesn’t seem to see that they are the same shape

𐩯 samekh in old south Arabian

ᛝ ing in futhorc or Anglo-Saxon

Is this just an example of two different cultures coming up with almost exactly the same letter shape at different times in history or is there a connection between the two? Maybe words that contain them or meanings associated with the symbol?

And please if possible if anyone knows any other languages or words that use a similar shape or have the same meaning as either of them let me know

Thanks for taking the time to read, I’m sorry if this is the wrong sub to post this to, if it is, point me in the right direction

3 Comments
2024/11/28
08:46 UTC

0

Any idea of the jump between "To complete" and "to be without flaw" (Perfect)

I was redoing grammar since I am learning new langauges and when someone says Oh it's in it's petetrite, 3rd declension, imprefect, gentative, auxiliary form so it has -ism at the end and you change the second vowel if the resulting diphthong is too soft and it would help if I knew what those words mean. And suddenly occured to me, I ain't seen words like that in decades.

And then realized perfect and imperfect have nothing to do with perfectionnbecause perfect doesn't mean perfect. It means perfect. The loose line is latin (perficere), old french (parfit), Middle english(also parfit), and in the the Queen's english has perfect(spelling correction I guess to match latin)?

And i cannot find the jump between To be complete and to be without flaw. Afterall I can make a burnt, half smushed, wrong colour cake and if I said I perfected the cake everyone would remarked, I guess it's finished but it's far from perfect. But in like 1300's I would get a reply of, sure it's perfect but make another that's good.

9 Comments
2024/11/28
06:55 UTC

4

train of thought

where does this come from? i use it pretty frequently as i am very forgetful haha and i only just questioned where the origin came from

2 Comments
2024/11/28
03:38 UTC

0

Why do we say "your motor's about to fall out" about cats purring?

I say this all the time when cats are purring really loudly but have no idea why. Did car engines used to fall out when they were overworked? What's the origin there?

ETA: not sure where I first heard it (maybe from a relative from the southern US), but I've heard others say it, and no one who hasn't heard it before I say it has thought twice about it.

3 Comments
2024/11/28
03:09 UTC

60

Re: “come.” How/when/why did it become associated with sex and sexuality?

35 Comments
2024/11/27
19:12 UTC

1

Is the word "Discoverance" still in usage or ever been a word that was used?

I think I found usage of the word from the 1800's or so using Google scholar but not many. The reason I ask is routinely I keep saying "The discoverance" instead of "The discovery" like discoverance is more normal/the right way to say it but I can't for the life of me figure out where I picked it up or why I keep saying it or if it's a word that ever found any common usage.

4 Comments
2024/11/27
16:50 UTC

977

You've got to feel for them

84 Comments
2024/11/27
16:18 UTC

0

Why do we colloquially say one will "take medicine" for painkillers and antibiotics, but "take medication" for psychiatric drugs?

Title.

42 Comments
2024/11/27
14:29 UTC

7

origins of german word "mobbing/mobben"

after reading the recent post about "the mob", it got me thinking about the German word for bullying: mobbing

is this just a (pseudo?)-anglicism coming from the mob as an organized group basically bullying honest people with extortion etc.?

does "to mob" also exist in English as a verb? if yes, what does it mean?

9 Comments
2024/11/27
09:43 UTC

30

When did the word “freeway” enter common parlance?

I was listening to the song, “Run, Run, Rudolph” by Chuck Berry and there’s the line that says “he can take the freeway down” and I thought, hey, this song came out in the 50s, and the interstate freeway plan only started in the 50s (thank you, President Eisenhower), and it took decades to be completed. Was the term “freeway” part of common usage before the interstate system? If yes, what were they referring to?

19 Comments
2024/11/27
02:10 UTC

25

Origins of the phrase "Scratch a liberal and you get a fascist"

PLEASE READ THE BODY, THANK YOU :)

I was doing a brief search into the origins of the phrase and I found on Wiktionary, that it comes from the black panther party. I noticed there wasn't a citation, and since I don't have access to academic resources, or the necessary research skills yet, if people could help with direction on this search, or if they could find it themselves?

Thanks all, this sub is super neat and I love it :)

51 Comments
2024/11/26
23:49 UTC

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