Sometimes, I cringe at posts I see on this subreddit.

I cringe at the teenagers with girl problems.

I cringe at the projected stereotypes.

I cringe at the undertones of toxic masculinity.

I need to compose myself and withold my assent. These are impressions, untied to reality. My feelings are only perspective. They're not real.

I need to change my pov. Because honestly, I was a teenager with girl problems too. And I thought Stoicism was something it wasn't too. And I was raised without role models too. Who am I to dismiss the people I share so much with?

I must be temperate. Knowing better doesn't make me better, so who am I to scoff? Action is the measure of my character and I should act to encourage and guide. Not as a teacher, but as a fellow traveler on the path.

What should we do about people who think this sub isn't stoic enough?

View Poll

Welcome to the New Agora, a place for you and others to have casual conversations, seek advice and first aid, and hang out together outside of regular posts.

If you have not already, please the READ BEFORE POSTING top-pinned post.

The rules in the New Agora are simple:

1. Above all, keep in mind that our nature is "civilized and affectionate and trustworthy."
2. If you are seeking advice based on users' personal views as people interested in Stoicism, you may leave one top-level comment about your question per day.
3. If you are offering advice, you may offer your own opinions as someone interested in Stoic theory and/or practice--but avoid labeling personal opinions, idiosyncratic experiences, and even thoughtful conjecture as Stoic.
4. If you are promoting something that you have created, such as an article or book you wrote, you may do so only one time per day, but do not post your own YouTube videos.

While this thread is new, the above rules may change in response to things that we notice or that are brought to our attention.

As always, you are encouraged to report activity that you believe should not belong here. Similarly, you are welcome to pose questions, voice concerns, and offer other feedback to us either publicly in threads or privately by messaging the mods.

Wish you well in the New Agora.

Axioms are the basis of all beliefs, they are the parts of a theory that are assumed true and all other parts of a belief system or theory are based upon them. What are the axioms of Stoic Philosophy?

I'm of the opinion that Virtue being the one true good is the most core axiomatic belief of stoicism. Living in accordance to nature is another axiomatic belief I believe but you could derive that from Virtue being the only good as long as you a priori living in accordance to nature as virtuous.

I'm not looking for a definition of these given by Seneca or Epictetus though I wouldn't be opposed to those. I'm more interested in what you all think are the most foundation parts of stoicism.

I am new to Stoicism this year and am enjoying reading MA's Meditations. I also enjoy Ryan Holiday's podcast as he adds insight into MA's life along with the text.

What is your favorite Marcus Aurelius biography? I feel reading this would help with reading his meditations.

Thank you.

Hello all,

I'm planning on taking a little dip into Aristotle but was kinda intimidated by the breath of books and ideas. I at this point have decided to keep in line with stoicism as my focus on philosophy but I am interested in hearing from someone considered "great" and often referenced by seneca in my readings.

Any advice on basically "baby's first aristotle" book or writings?

Also have any tips on how to see his writings as a stoic or personal take aways from your experiences would be lovely.

(Correct me teach me lead me however you wish dear reader)

How stoicism helps you deal with lack of motivation? Every day I wake up I feel like doing nothing, honestly. It's so weird. It's almost as if life was not worth living. I'm just there, hanging around. I'm aware of my capacity and I know if I worked harder (if I worked at all, better said) I would achieve good outcomes, but it's just... Idk. It's hard to explain. I want to be virtous, but I don't feel like doing much. What do you think?

The Latin bene and bonus are translated as well and good. Bene is an adverb that describes the manner of being or doing something well — Bene valeo (I am well), while bonus is an adjective that refers to the utility of an object or person — Bonus panis ad salutem (Bread is good for health).

In Stoicism, there is fundamental distinction between arete/virtue and adiaphora/indifferents. Virtue is the sole good, while indifferents are neither good nor bad. The Stoics talk about some indifferents as being proegmena/preferred while others being apoproegmena/dispreferred.

This philosophical structure mirrors the distinction between bene and bonus. Bene functions as an adverbial state of being — similar to how virtue is an internal state of excellence, while bonus describes external qualities or utilities — analogous to the preferred-dispreferred indifferents. Just as preferred indifferents (like health, wealth, beauty) have instrumental value but are not good, bonus describes something's practical usefulness. Conversely, bene represents the quality of being, much like arete represents the internal state of moral excellence.

Bottom line, both linguistic and philosophical frameworks suggest a fundamental distinction between what something is (bene-arete) and what something does or appears to be (bonus-proegmena). 

How do you all process the feeling that life is unjust? People who are obviously doing wrong things seem to be getting by and getting their wishes fulfilled.

I love learning and knowledge and reason, I believe my dad was a low key stoic that as a medical professional and lover of the arts (undergrad in English Lit) felt ethical and moral actions were essentially social responsibilities that would logically maintain and improve stability in a society that would benefit all members. But I feel like he was also a man of routine and consistency that I think left him struggling to connect to the modern world that largely rejects or pushes back against reason and logic and self improvement for the common good. But when my mother developed a mysterious advanced form of lung failure and passed away, (still a medical mystery 10 years later) obviously after 30+ years together, it deeply affected him and he struggled for a 2-3 years with depression and decline in his own health forcing him to retire much earlier from practicing medicine. But it prompted him to change and now he’s thriving again in retirement, joined a book club he now runs, unexpectedly found love with a wonderful woman he met there and they are internationally traveling on senior educational tours multiple times a year, going to broadway musicals and volunteering as ushers at events where accomplished artists speak and it’s wonderful.

Additionally with that in mind, I’m also a newer Christian (non denominational and trying to remain purely scripture based) that sees the influence and application of stoic principles throughout Christ’s teachings and see them extremely beneficial for faith and life. But Christ also still acknowledges the value of “righteous anger”, suggesting we use it to actively challenge greed, evil and selfishness and fight for justice and ethical treatment of all. So, I’m wondering how do you avoid becoming stagnant and continue to be motivated to evolve and improve without those intense negative emotional responses (passions) that trigger the desire to effectively change? Because there obviously countless logical reasons to improve self and change and continue moving, but it still requires effort that is hard find if things are going well in your life. So how do you find the impetus to change from within instead of through the non-stoic reactive judgement of the external?

*Just to clarify, I did follow rule #2 and read through all the wonderful, helpful text provided in “Read before posting” beforehand and formulated my questions with that in mind.

I've had a long standing interest in Stoicism that has really improved my life.

As I've gotten older a friend of mine has introduced me to freemasonary, and there's a lodge around the corner from me. He said the main focus is self improvement and they use rituals based around masonry to deliver certain lessons.

Before I join could anyone tell me if there's a significant overlap between masonic and stoic philosophy?

(if that's the right word)

It has increasingly become a platform for shallow, performative interpretations of Stoicism, where the depth of the philosophy is reduced to Instagram-worthy soundbites.

Far too often, people skim through Meditations or a couple of Seneca’s letters and then feel emboldened to offer life advice that is neither insightful nor aligned with Stoic principles. This trend is not only disappointing but also diminishes the intellectual rigor and depth that Stoicism demands.

Stoicism is not about parroting hollow platitudes or appearing profound—it is a lifelong practice rooted in self-discipline, reflection, and engagement with complex ideas. If this community truly seeks to embody Stoic principles, it must move beyond surface-level readings and engage seriously with the primary texts and the challenging but rewarding path of applying them meaningfully to life.

If this subreddit is to honor the true essence of Stoicism, the focus must shift from superficial advice-giving to fostering thoughtful, meaningful discussions grounded in the philosophy itself.

Instead of hastily offering prescriptive solutions, contributors should encourage questions that inspire self-reflection and dialogue about how the principles of Stoicism can be applied in real, nuanced situations. Stoicism is not about telling others how to live but about cultivating inner resilience and wisdom through rigorous self-examination.

Let’s aim to make this community a space for genuine engagement with Stoic ideas—a place where we challenge ourselves and each other to think deeply and live intentionally, rather than recycling simplistic advice that adds little to anyone’s growth.

Edit: The fact that, a mod, chose to pin a comment questioning the form rather than addressing the substance of the critique suggests they might have taken it too personally.

By doing so, they risk setting a precedent that undermines meaningful discourse, signaling that surface-level distractions are more worthy of attention than addressing valid points.

As a moderator, this decision reflects poorly on fostering a thoughtful and rigorous community—it’s worth reflecting on whether this truly serves the purpose of the subreddit.

I am 17 and have not been doing the only task I have in the world currently which is studying. I want to study but just can't. I need to study before the opportunity to do so slips from my hand and I regret it. I'd appreciate you guys helping me out with Some personal anecdotes and quotes of famous stoics. Edit: I just don't want to study! I can study!!

Seneca says by enduring ills, the mind attains contempt for the endurance of them.

"But you ask, "If a wise man receives a blow, what shall he do?" What Cato did when he was struck in the face. He did not flare up, he did not avenge the wrong, he did not even forgive it, but he said that no wrong had been done. He showed finer spirit in not acknowledging it, than if he had pardoned it... For who is not aware that none of the things reputed to be goods or ills appear to the wise man as they do to men at large?"

"Unconcern, however, is the blessing of the wise man, and he will never allow himself to pay to the one who offered him an insult the compliment of admitting it was offered."
-Seneca, Moral Essays Volume 1, On Firmness.

I have been reading Seneca, then summarizing my thoughts in as concise a way as possible to reach an understanding of his ideas. Here are some of my thoughts:

Independence is the key- independence of thought and action free from concern of the judgment of others and even free from the influence of their words or insults.
I succeed by not basing my mood on the actions of other people or events outside my control The ability to handle confrontation or ignore an insult The ability not to anger, even when it might seem justified
The ability to have a steady mood at all times. It is you who is staying calm and not going crazy- you are the one who is handling things with the levelheadedness, even when the people around you express alarm, fear, or outrage.

You have control over your thoughts and actions. As a guru once said: my secret is, I do not mind what happens to me. This is the way we overcome small men, and reach a steady state of mind.

While reading the book The Reopening of the Western Mind, I learned about Justus Lipsius the 16th Century Humanist who tried to combine Stoicism and Christianity into a synthesis called Neostoicism. I was interested in this little chapter of Stoic history, but I realized that only Lipsius' De constantia has been translated into English, but not his other major work on Stoicism "Manuductionis ad Stoicam Philosophiam Libri Tres, L. Annaeo Senecae, aliisque scriptoribus illustrandis" (Three Books of Guidance to Stoic Philosophy, Illustrating L. Annaeus Seneca and Other Writers)

I was able to find a copy of the book in Latin on Internet Archive, but the OCR job was terrible. So I paid for Transkribus credits to OCR the text, then ran the transcribed Latin through ChatGPT to hopefully correct any typos, and then made Google Translate and ChatGPT translations of the book into English.

You can find all of the files that resulted from this effort here. The OCR of the Latin text is probably the only thing I'm sure is of value, but I figure people might be able to understand some percent of the book based on the four English machine translations.

Note on the English machine translations:

• One file is OCR > GPT Edit for Typos > Google Translate > GPT Paraphrase.
• The other files are OCR > GPT Edit for Typos > GPT Translate. They differ by how big the chunks of Latin text were (either 500, 1000 or 1500 words.) I did different chunk sizes because ChatGPT wanted to keep ommitting text, and I thought smaller chunks would preserve the most text without censorship.

This is a link to this new Stoic philosophy book's Foreward section.

Many querants come to this discussion subforum seeking relief from emotional turbulence of painful interpersonal relationships, dysfunctional family dynamics, impaired physical physical and mental health.

New practitioners snd aspirants believe that turning inward and quieting chaotic thoughts and emotional turmoil is the answer and supplier of meaning in daily life.

The mistake is in assuming looking inward is the exclusive goal.

In not stepwise updating, informing and expanding your Internal Experiential Reference Frame and conditioning the Executive Decision Center networks through observation, lifelong study and daily Stoic practice (Walking the Talk).

This book argues that the true value of study and cateful, considered adoption of Stoic Virtues, is the transition from self-centered introspection to erudite externalization in ever- expanding appreciation of role, place, and aggregate responsibility and duty in like-minded Community and a highly-interconnected World.

Mental Gearing and Meaning, beyond the Individual.

https://modernstoicism.com/beyond-the-individual-stoic-philosophy-on-community-and-connection-by-will-johncock/

Welcome to the New Agora, a place for you and others to have casual conversations, seek advice and first aid, and hang out together outside of regular posts.

If you have not already, please the READ BEFORE POSTING top-pinned post.

The rules in the New Agora are simple:

1. Above all, keep in mind that our nature is "civilized and affectionate and trustworthy."
2. If you are seeking advice based on users' personal views as people interested in Stoicism, you may leave one top-level comment about your question per day.
3. If you are offering advice, you may offer your own opinions as someone interested in Stoic theory and/or practice--but avoid labeling personal opinions, idiosyncratic experiences, and even thoughtful conjecture as Stoic.
4. If you are promoting something that you have created, such as an article or book you wrote, you may do so only one time per day, but do not post your own YouTube videos.

While this thread is new, the above rules may change in response to things that we notice or that are brought to our attention.

As always, you are encouraged to report activity that you believe should not belong here. Similarly, you are welcome to pose questions, voice concerns, and offer other feedback to us either publicly in threads or privately by messaging the mods.

Wish you well in the New Agora.

You know, just take it easy. Why not? Life is difficult sometimes, and if you're tense and worried all the time, you have less energy. Don't let things keep you up at night. Let go when a battle is not worth the things you could do instead. Do what's important to you, because if you don't, you'll forget whatever you're worried about now when you face bigger problems later on. Just do what you can when you can, and if you can't do anything else, then there's nothing more you really can do.

Stoicism isn't a philosophy of trying fruitlessly to be 'unemotional'. It's a philosophy to build happiness, and the first step in doing so is to not make yourself unhappy in an 'unhappy' situation. It can cripple you to be miserable because misery saps your will to truimph. Be realistic, do not accost yourself. Surviving in the wild has the same principle: do not walk if you are better off sitting, do not sit if you are better off laying down. Do not be lazy, do not waste time, but do not waste energy, either. Do not overextend yourself foolishly.

I've been socially outcast and bullied myself in school from preschool till around 8th grade, my parents were physically there

they provided for me and helped me with school, but were emotionally absent, they used to be physically abusive in the past but have reformed and changed since around 6 years, they don't beat us anymore and genuinely try to form connections with us, while we do get along there is a distance there that will never go

It's mostly a shallow but positive relationship now, although I would never truly open up to them, I'm a middle child, so let me get to the point, my brother has a better school life I admit, he has friends there unlike me in the past, but at home he's socially isolated, my parents are still mostly emotionally cold but kind, but don't show love, me and my older sister are both in our late teens/highschool/university, meanwhile my little brother is only 9

I feel guilty, I want to interact with him and develop a relationship with him rather than the very shallow and fickle one we have, but there is nothing in common between us, probably due to the generation gap, I feel like a failure of a brother honestly,

I know things might change when he becomes a teen so I can introduce him to healthy self improvement, but by that time the wounds of childhood would have been set already, what can I do? He's a skibidi toilet Ronaldo football kind of boy, and I'm mostly introverted and play Skyrim or souls like games.

I made a special point to highlight these passages while reading:

Book; Passage

• 5.24
• 6.38
• 8.36
• 8.52
• 9.28
• 9.32
• 12.32

I like each of these because they talk about the present moment (which relates a lot to the work of Eckart Tolle), the universe, The Whole, time and its infiniteness yet transience. In 9.28, when Marcus writes "single original impulse", it seemed at least to me that he theorized the Big Bang?

But most importantly, these passages relate to one's spiritual relationship with the cosmos itself, and how we are not apart but intrinsically linked. Knowing that Marcus wrote these passages before the scientific revolution was astounding, because he very clearly grasped the delicate balance of all things in the universe.

I of course circled, underline, and put in parathensis many other passages and lines of text, but these ones I found to be a common theme and they really resonated with me.

Someone in my life, let's call her K, has had a traumatic past. K was r***d in college and experienced an abusive male partner after that. K says that they began living with the male partner only because they felt they needed protection from men. They believe that their life took a detour because of the resulting trauma, say it caused them to drop out of school, and even 10 years later say that experience is the reason they don't have their ideal career, relationship, etc. – in short, everything that's wrong in their life is caused by this. K also has chronic health issues.

K blames their history for causing their health issues and psychological trauma. They believe that their course in life was set by this terrible event when they were young and are really very deeply unhappy more than 10 years later. I also feel that they take out their inner struggles on others around them. Sometimes they disappear for a week at a time and I will learn later that they were deeply depressed and barely left the house and were drinking. Mentions of SA or r*** in a movie or TV show are enough to send them into a depression. When I've tried to talk to them during this depressive phase, they lashed out at me. I see that dynamic playing out in other parts of their life as well.

I struggle with this on several levels. One is that I don't really feel comfortable playing the trauma counselor. As much as I'd like to help, it's really just not something I can handle myself especially knowing it's such a sensitive issue. I want to be supportive but have no idea how and K doesn't know when I ask.

Two is that as a stoic, I find the idea that a bad experience early in life could completely ruin someone's life to be very challenging. It seems inherently un-stoic and more like a manifestation of depression. I have to believe that a person who has a very bad experience early in life can overcome it and go on to do anything they choose.. otherwise, I would not care about stoicism.

Three is that I am receiving the brunt of K's processing their trauma, which tends to involve disclosing really sensitive things to me in a way that I find uncomfortable, and then getting very aggressive when I don't respond the way they think I should. K refuses to go to therapy or a trauma counselor. This has been my repeated suggestion and I just don't think they are ever going to do it. In a way I think it would re-traumatize them to talk about their past with a new person, but I think this might be necessary to grow.

So I feel a bit like I'm enabling K by being the listening ear who will take the brunt of their abuse while they work through the issue, but I don't think this is fair to me and it's taking a toll on our relationship. I have pushed back and told K that they need to talk to someone but it doesn't seem to get through.

I've been practicing as a stoic for a number of years now and while I can manage through almost anything with this philosophy I know at some point I feel I don't know how to apply stoicism to relationship problems. Any advice in this situation would be helpful. Thank you!

So I know someone who worries excessively. Why amor FATI? Why should someone love their fate?

When my mind is clear and I can see what needs to be done, I do it.

When I get carried by events, I forget what I have to do and who I want to be.

What are your ways of remembering what you think it's true? How do you do it when you don't "remember it" as a natural way of thinking? Reading (more or less passively) what I wrote down doesn't seem to work.

Thank you.

Hey all- any good podcasts out there that cover aspects of Stoicism for the novice and/or advanced student? TIA

I don't know how the line between trying to stay unaffected by uncontrollable external things blurred to never letting myself express any negative emotion but here I am. I'm afraid to be seen crying so much so that I actively avoid things that could lead to it. Like, the idea of people seeing me cry makes me physically uncomfortable. And you should know that I'm a person to whom tears come very naturally, even if the weather's not right, tears will start streaming regardless of how moved I am.

It's become a recent problem because I can't communicate with others due to this. When I talk about smth that's important to me, I can feel tears pricking and my throat goes DRY. I literally can't speak. I make some excuse and get out of there with my goal unachieved. This needs to change.

Can you please offer me your advice for an action plan? I really want to feel comfortable being vulnerable with people again. Thanks.

(Btw if this isn't the place to post, politely let me know where)

My first every girlfriend broke up with me. In my then 23 years of life (now 24) I've had the best summer I could imagine, it was by far my best days in my life. We met and started dating in July but in August she had to return to her country to end her studies and the plan was for both of us be together in person again after we both finished our studies. She said often that I was the best thing that ever happened to her and loved me more than I could imagine.

However quickly her mother and step dad were against our relationship because I live in a poorer country than her, I live in Portugal and she lives in Uk (we are both portuguese btw) and I'm stagnating her by wanting her to return here. She however kept talking to me and chose me over their opinion.

This lasted 3 months, but now something changed. Her mother is sick and dying of a terminal illness and now she says she feels guilty by talking to me against her mother wishes. I was always there for her and I tried my best to help her endure this difficult moment. But she chose to leave me and blocked me almost everywhere. I didn't deserve this, I gave her everything I had during this relationship, I was the best version of myself.

And worse of all, she basically broke up with me twice in a week, first she said she didn't knew what to do, then she told me she wanted to continue our relationship but a few days after she just ended it. Now yesterday her cousin told me she was playing video games with other guy from my country as well and only both of them?

I'm so confused, angry and sad about all of this. My first love ever is destroying my heart and my soul, I don't know what to do and react.

Welcome everyone. I have fallen out of practice with my habit to study stoic texts daily. To get into it again I choose to write a weekly reflection a stoic text that I come across on daily readings. I also came to the conclusion I could just share that reflection. Each week, though not bound to a strict schedule, I’ll explore a passage from classical Stoic texts or modern interpretations, and provide some personal insights.

This series isn’t about academic analysis but personal reflection and dialogue. Consider this a space for exchanging ideas, sharing interpretations, and perhaps finding inspiration. I hope that anyone can join the discussion, may it be an academic or a beginner.

For anyone still reading, lets get startet with: "Don’t Be Angry with Wrongdoers" from Epictetus Discourses (Book 1, 18) (I have the Penguin Classics Edition). Free link to the text.

Epictetus starts this lecture by reminding us about what many philosophers before him had already statet:

1. There is NO ground to be angry with anyone.

2. Wrondoers do wrong because they are simply confused about what is good and bad.

Every time a person assents to something they do it because they feel it is true. The thief may assents to the idea that whatever you own is something good. And owning it himself is good. He does not think about the means on how to get rightfull ownership of this thing so he just takes it from you. In his mind he did no wrong, as he just desired what you had, and took it from you to fullfill his desire. He hasnt considered the implications, hasnt thought about the loss of trust etc. that would come of this. As it reads:

"You have beautiful clothes and you neighbour does not. [...] The neighbour does not know what man's good consists in, but imagines it means having beautiful clothes. [...] It's a foregone conclusion that he's going to try and steal them."

This does not mean that you have to provide a thief with everything he desires. Hang on to the things you own and desire but dont provoke anyone to take them (So don't provoke them - don't air your clothes at the window!). Still remember: If one day your clothes are gone, don't get angry with the thief. As epictetus puts it, he felt an impulse he couldn't resist, he deemed it correct and assented to this. Don't get angry with them, show them pity instead. For they can't distinguish good from bad, as the blind cant distinguish white from black.

He reminds us to practice first on the small things, and later on progress to the things of greater value. With this you cant practice it daily, and one day even the bigger events cant rattle you. It shows that you should not start stoicism by saying "My dad died, how can I get rid of any sorrow right now". This wont work out since with every dicipline in life you need to start small. No one played Chopins Fantasy-impromptu Op. 66 without every practicing something easier first.

"If you have a headache, practise not cursing. [...] And I'm not saying that you can't complain, only don't complain with your whole being. [...] You are invincible if nothing outside the will can disconert you."

Maybe this was just a reminder for you and you found no new insights in this. Thats still great I believe, as its the little things that we need to remind ourselfs more often. Keep them in the forfront of our mind.

Cheers and till next week.

I’ve never much looked into stoicism so I could also be using the “new to stoicism” flair, but I am interested in it. Any help on the subject is greatly appreciated. I am 18M and over think every single thing in my life to an insane degree. It consumes my life. I think it may be due to how my parents never really raised me to be open with my feelings and it’s just something that was never talked about so I never learned how to deal with them? I’m not 100% sure though. Even though the overthinking affects every part of my life, the worst of it is in my relationship.

I’ve been dating my girlfriend (16F) for over a year now and she is absolutely incredible. I love her so incredibly much and she makes my life so much better. I know everyone says this, but I truly believe that we could grow old together because of how great we are together. This is what I think of her. But when I’m alone, my mind overthinks my relationship insanely bad. Like for example “high school relationships don’t last. We’re gonna break up eventually. It’s stupid to think otherwise” or “I forgot to text her back (normally it’s been at most an hour). This shows I’m losing feelings for her” or “I’m tired right now and want to go home. This shows I don’t like being with her anymore” etc. I know I don’t believe these things and even typing them out right now, they sound stupid as hell. But even still, the thoughts never stop occurring to me. The whole reason k decided to type this out is because I just saw a post on r/AmIOverReacting and an 18M and 16F and he broke up with her because they were incompatible. And even though it shouldn’t, the post got to me because it scares me and I don’t want that to happen to us.

I’m sorry if this doesn’t make much sense. You can comment and I’ll try my best to explain more if you need me to. I’ve never been the best at explaining my feelings as it’s like the moment I start talking about them or writing about them, I can never find the right words. Again, possibly due to how I was raised. I think stoicism could really help with not worrying about everything constantly. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

My partner and I stayed have a family member who recently informed us of their belief in certain old school religious docterine. Unfortunately due to them not sharing this belief up front, we have effectively unknowingly trampled their docterine for almost two years.

I'll start with stating although we don't uphold this particular line of docterine, we accept others do and have no issues respecting it. What I find difficult is the disingenuous judgment after the fact by informing us we could no longer do what had before in their home. Meanwhile had they be up front with us in the beginning, it all would have been NBD. Because they were not up front, I feel lied to. I feel like the foundation of the relationship needs to be relayed as the original was not built on honesty.

I want to speak with them. Maybe write a letter instead of a phone call. I'm unsure how to start in a way it's not calling BS on them allowing us to do something for almost 2yrs without a peep. But now, it's a big deal.

PS: I should add. The new expressed boundary itself is not the issue despite it diminishing us. We acknowledged it, hugged and departed that visit as lovingly as it started. I feels like an incomplete conversation because we listened without response. Simply absorbed the new info.