Ive been inlove with this person for a long time now, recently I found out that he has a crush on a girl at work who has a boyfriend. I know she is not interested in him and barely notices that he exists. I know most probably nothing will come out of his crush on this girl but it hurts to see the way he looks at her when he thinks no one is looking (but I am) I know its so pointless to waste my energy on this but I cant get over it. How do I reframe my mind into the stoic's perspective?

I just can't stop worrying about opinions that others have of me. In my mind my reputation HAS to be perfect, everyone has to think highly of me, and this makes me suffer a lot, because this is of course unrealistic. Is it possible to break free from this? To not let people's negative opinions affect me so much? And if so, how would you go about this? Help would be appreciated!

I know that the acquirement of virtue is the only valuable pursuit, but does this mean in each and every moment, I must be pursuing becoming more virtuous? Should I be acquiring preferred indifferents if they don't have any effect on my virtue or vice? If yes, in moderation, at what point does it start becoming idleness?

How can one reconcile between wanting and striving to lead an easier life, which is a different goal than achieving virtue, and stoicism. Do they contradict? Can it be argued that it is human nature/ inner logos to strive to lead an easier life through power for example.

I've read some books halfway through like Robert greene books, meditations and some YouTube videos on applying stoicism to my daily life. Like journaling, jogging a lil bit, reading, cleaning my room etc; . But once I'm tired I get burned out quick and go back to my laziness and lye in bed all day. One day I want to look at my life and call it a masterpiece and be proud of myself. Live and follow by God. I just want to be a good man and it's not too late ya know ? I'm 21 years old and this is supposed to be my prime year's where I build my life to be great. Anyway please give your opinions. Even if they are harsh (I need it)

P.S. I know my punctuation is bad sorry

Correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that negative emotions can't be avoided and are just a part of life, so if they are, what would be the best way of living through these negative emotions (like embarassment, heartbreak, loss, fear etc) while experiencing them? Should we just wait for the pain to vanish, realize it doesn't really hurt our lives and realize it's out of our control? Or am I completely wrong and is this the wrong approach?

Ah yes, this question. I know what many of you are thinking, but bear with me.

I have become well-acquainted with stoicism at this point, but recently I read an analysis here that came to the conclusion that stoicism's end teaching is "nothing hurts, you're just making shit up, actually". For the life of me, I cannot find that comment, so if someone knows it, by all means link it. But unlike a lot of seemingly ignorant takes about stoicism, that person was using in-depth research and prowling over Meditations like it was their life goal.

So whilst the knee-jerk reaction of many will be to say "no, that's not the goal"--can someone explain how it is not, if the goal is pure reason and emotions are decided to be inherently unreasonable/a consequence of unreasonable perspectives/beliefs?

I'm more so asking this so I can answer it in a sufficient way to newcomers, but I am curious if there is a population that truly believes emotions = bad (or... "illogical").

I personally have not interpreted the scripts that way. My interpretation of the lessons is more in line with "sit every emotion down and interrogate it--if it has unreasonable basis, fix it. If you believe it is reasonable, it has its welcome place." For example, I have seen people argue that being happy during life events is not actually a stoic response. I believe becoming overly attached to the idea of happiness is not stoic, but not that simply experiencing happiness is anti-stoic. If we are to assume all emotions are inherently illogical, then I would argue there is some room for examined nonsense in life. Example: I feel a high sense of ease and comfort when going on my morning walk. I don't let whether I go on a morning walk or not decide my attitude for the day, and I recognize that viewing the walk as a good thing is merely an opinion and not an objective fact, but I don't see much point in telling myself I'm not supposed to feel any which way about it. While relying on dopamine to keep yourself sane has many, many drawbacks, I am perfectly content with my examined nonsense of enjoying a walk and letting myself feel said nonsense.

Again, we're framing this under the argument that all emotions are illogical and come from illogical beliefs. I could probably argue that me feeling pleasant while going on a walk is logical, actually, but I don't care to as that's not the point of this.

Been working with stoicism for a while now. I find the standard unit of He and Him very offputting plus most of the references are to male philosophers (even modern ones). I think the philosophy would be better developed and more accessible if female perspectives were explicitly included. The foundational message seems to be that the ideal is to be an "emotionless strong man". Any women in this sub who have a perspective on this or who can recommend texts that are inclusive?

EDIT : thanks for all the thoughtful responses and recommendations for resources. I am happier to be part of this sub knowing there are many contributors who have also reflected on this topic and would like to hear more from you all.

NOTE TO MODS : there's a section in the faqs that says women and stoicism is a frequent topic. The section is a bit dusty. Could you add this thread to that group and clear out the deleted posts etc, thank you.

I am not a native english speaker.

I own a copy of Epictetus discourses, fragments handbook translated by Robin Hard. I also own a copy of Stoicism And the Art of Happiness by Donald Robertson.

I wish to order Senecas letters, Epictetus Enchiridion and of course Marcus Aurelius Meditations. What are the best versions and best English translations for each? Any other Stoic literature you recommend?

Thank you in advance!

How does one stay immovable like a strong tree, despite bad s*it happening? Its always a shame when we meet someone and realize they are a stranger and a shell of their former selves.

I have feeling very emotional just typing this up now - I've been ignoring the huge huge elephant in the room that I have this huge HUGE intuition the past 5 years that I've falling drastically behind on my career versus peers. Worst yet, past what I consider my true potential.

I alot of my classmates and peers are at much higher levels than me - and a lot of those much younger than me are now climbing higher levels.

in fact, two people I mentored that were 4 years younger than me a decade ago are now at higher levels than me.

Do you know how much it stings to see someone you mentored who was 4 years younger than you at a higher position?

all I have to blame in the end is myself - I know I could of done MORE, been MORE proactive.

But in the end, I know where were factors outside my control and life circumstances that made things difficult or not the most opportune. An example is having a toxic manager on my program that did not like me that set my career back 3 years (I manager who eventually got reprimanded/removed from the project) - but the damage was done. Another one was a health condition that did not allow me to focus on work a ton for around a year or two.

For context I'm 39 and principal level engineer. I should honestly be a higher level (senior principle or director level) by now for my education / natural progression in my field - especially with the amount of direct experience I have in the company.

now I feel like just quitting and re-starting everything. kind of just 'giving up" on this career and focusing on other stuff. almost like - Alright - I have only have one life, and the career part did NOT work out, time to focus on other things, skim by on your career.

Option 1: Realize the reality that my career goals did not work out the way I wanted. Realize that it's partly my fault but also a lot outside of my control as well that just made things way harder. Continue in my current career but realize I'm just going to perform my tasks, and be done with work so I can open up more room in my life to family, relationships, hobbies I am passionate about.

Option 2: Double down on my career and play "catch up". Really try to be super proactive and form an exact path to where I want to be - and eventually catch up to where I should be.

the benefit of option 1 is that I get to focus on relationships more - hobbies I love, more time to travel etc. it will probably be the more fulfilling choice. I'll get to keep my job (that still pays close to 175k a year) since it is in a niche field in high demand. the CON of this option is that It will be hard to go about my workday not putting extra effort in. I love in general just improving on things and always being better at work - and it will be hard to just...stop and not put extra time in. I also have the mantra that if I am spending a large portion of my life on something, I want to be GOOD at it. if I'm coasting I'll feel like I'm wasting my time.

the benefit of option 2 is that I can probably "catch up", as things are much more stable in my life now and I have a clearer path forward in my career for what WILL work and what WONT work. the HUGE con of option 2 is that there are no gaurantees and a lot is truly outside my control when it comes to career progression in my field - I could be gringing away and then the company promotes someone else because of networking/they like them better/they are just in an opportune position or area. or may work extra hard and get laid off. then I will also have the added con of having dedicated time away from relationships/family/passions that was wasted.

The thing is, I CANNOT have both (I cannot dedicate way more time/energy to my caeer while having fulfilling hobbies/relationships/friendships/health) , but if I don't pick one I ensure that I don't have either -but I cannot seem to pick a direction.

There is a third option: forgot promotions, forget comparising yourself to theres, and just work your alloted 40 hours, but do the BEST job you can and hope for the best (knowing alot of it is outside your control). once that time is done, focus on your hobbies/relationships/family.

Any advice on how to handle this / pick a direction?

Welcome to the New Agora, a place for you and others to have casual conversations, seek advice and first aid, and hang out together outside of regular posts.

If you have not already, please the READ BEFORE POSTING top-pinned post.

The rules in the New Agora are simple:

1. Above all, keep in mind that our nature is "civilized and affectionate and trustworthy."
2. If you are seeking advice based on users' personal views as people interested in Stoicism, you may leave one top-level comment about your question per day.
3. If you are offering advice, you may offer your own opinions as someone interested in Stoic theory and/or practice--but avoid labeling personal opinions, idiosyncratic experiences, and even thoughtful conjecture as Stoic.
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While this thread is new, the above rules may change in response to things that we notice or that are brought to our attention.

As always, you are encouraged to report activity that you believe should not belong here. Similarly, you are welcome to pose questions, voice concerns, and offer other feedback to us either publicly in threads or privately by messaging the mods.

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Read MA, Epictetus, and follow Ryan holiday quite a bit. Each one a couple times.

My torture is that my ultimate question is still "who cares about living virtuously?"

Nothing really matters ultimately because we are going to die. If a rich CEO seeks the simple pleasures of drugs and hookers and is ultimately happy then why would stoicism matter for them? Why do we believe we are higher beings than animals when, in reality, our capabilities just give us the ability to get what animals want but more easily? What is the meaning of any of this ultimately? There's no God that protects us or makes us feel better. The "natural order" of the universe is literally just physics and not to be worshiped. I'm really hurting right now because I have zero meaning for anything. I am really struggling and hoping to come back to stoicism and I've been through many different religious journeys as well and I just find zero meaning in anything. What's the point of living with these randomly picked virtues when ultimately horrible things are going to happen anyways and often times nothing good may come out of it. It just feels like a naïve way.

I'm not asking in a disrespectful manner towards Stoicism itself. But I think it's more of a meaning of life question. There is nothing supernatural and therefore the buck really just stops with us. Make as much money as I can to protect myself in my family. Hurt somebody else before they could hurt me if it ever came to that. Seek as much pleasure as I can, because nobody wants to live a life without pleasure.

Has anybody else struggled with this?

In the increasingly polarizing world we live in, which includes war, political strife, religious and ideological extremism, and financial inequity, there is no shortage of opportunities to feel disheartened and even angered by the beliefs, words, and actions of those we encounter every day.

Historically, I've been really poor at not allowing myself to be swept up in emotions because someone said or did something that bothered me on some level. I've lodged no shortage of debates, arguments, and - at my worst - insults over the years.

However, as I am beginning the second half of my life (assuming I live to be 80), I'm coming to an increased realization of just how short life really is, and how quickly it seems to go by - and expediently so as we age.

Moreover, looking back over the previous four decades of my life, I've realized something else: All those debates, arguments, and insults haven't actually changed much for the better - not in my life nor in the lives of others. Getting angry at something (or at someone) I don't think has ever change their behavior, and it hasn't made me feel better about myself or the situation as a whole. And honestly, it's only made me more of a bitter, impatient, and unhappy person.

Because of this, and because of my desire to not feel this way, I've been making a conscious effort to disengage from situations that do not bring me harmony. In short, I've been trying more and more to implement selective engagement tactics in my life. In the process, I've come to realize that there are many benefits to selective engagement:

Energy Preservation
By choosing where to invest my time, attention, and emotional energy, I help to avoid unnecessary drain from interactions or situations that don’t align with my values or goals. This creates space for deeper focus on pursuits that matter to me, like spiritual growth, education, or nurturing the meaningful relationships I do have in my life.

Clarity and Focus
Engaging selectively has helped me avoid becoming overwhelmed by the noise and distractions of the material world. It's helped to sharpen my ability to prioritize what genuinely contributes to my well-being.

Healthy Boundaries
It ensures that I'm not sacrificing my peace or well-being for others who may not reciprocate or respect my boundaries. Walking away from harmful or draining situations reinforces self-respect and self-care. This can literally be as simple as not responding to an inflammatory comment on social media.

Compassion Without Over-Identification
Selective engagement allows me to help others without becoming overly entangled in their struggles. I'm learning that we can act with kindness and empathy while maintaining the detachment necessary to protect our own emotional health.

In summary, selective engagement means evaluating relationships and activities to see if they align with your values, choosing to step back from toxic dynamics or unproductive debates, and focusing on pursuits that bring you closer to personal growth, compassion, and understanding.

In this ever-connected world, with its 24-hour news cycles, social media platforms connecting people across borders and oceans, and growing population densities, I'm learning that selective engagement is more critical now than it likely has ever been before.

At least it has proven to be for myself. There has been freedom in realizing that not everything that comes across my path warrants my engagement.

EDIT: Typos and stuff.

Or only against video game addiction?

So to give you some context. I have struggled with discipline for quite a long time. Until recently I have started feeling better and I dont know if it was because of ADHD or something else but I now want to help people who have the same issues as me.

QUESTION: So I wanted to ask all of you, as I am an aspiring software developer, what applications can I make that could significantly help you with being disciplined, your mental health, and being stoic as well?**

The only apps I have thought so far off is a habit tracking app, a meditation app, a daily stoic quote app, and a wallpaper app for stoicism.

But I'm interested in what problems you all have with any mental health, productivity, and all those kinds of software that you have used before.

I’m about to become homeless in 3 weeks. I have nowhere to go so I’ll most likely have to sleep outside. I’ve never been homeless before. I’m truly scared, and very sad. I feel pretty suicidal. How would a stoic handle this/view this?

So basically , the title.

I had a huge friendship breakup some months ago. It was my fault. I said some very bad things and now i’m completely cut off from 2 friends. They have also been asking some of their close friends who I am not particularly close to but we still used to chat from time to time, to not talk to me and to avoid me because they find it disrespectful.

So now there’s a whole bunch of people I have to see around all the time but we don’t talk. I apologised to them and they made it clear they want nothing to do with me after this. We are civil around each other but that’s it.

How do I apply stoicism to this new Social dynamic I have to be around for the next year?

I have been feeling constant guilt and shame for everything I did and I have been trying not to repeat those mistakes.

Sometimes, in stressful situations—or even in normal situations where most people would react instinctively—I find myself staying calm and not responding right away, as if it’s no big deal. While it might seem like a good thing, it actually terrifies me.

I feel like it’s not normal to be this way. Because of that, I sometimes try to act like I’m panicking or excited, just to match how others react. But when I do, I end up feeling weird, awkward, and not like myself at all.

As the title suggests, I am incapable currently of not letting things constantly bother me. My ex ending our relationship, my business not getting enough orders, feeling like a lazy worthless nobody. I want to learn to control my emotions, to focus on the things I do have control to change, to be a person people respect and to be someone my kids can look up to. I want to become a stoic. I want to control my life and my emotions.

In the last year I have read Meditations twice. I have not had the best year this year (lots of personal issues and going through stuff) but Meditations helped me get through a lot of it. I aim to read Epictetus’s discourses next.

What I took away from Meditations is how everything that happens around me is only natural and there seems to be value in the reason why things happen; “natures path” as MA describes it. Especially when he describes how everything is atoms and molecules that are in constant flux - changing from one moment to another - and will continue to do so since time is boundless, there can be nothing that happens which is unnatural. This means any negative circumstances that happen around me is part of this fatalism/nature that is interwoven together. Even death, after reading about how MA describes it, I started to realize that it truly is my assignment to die one day. And what’s so wrong about it? It’s actually exciting because it is part of my assignment in this “fate” that plays a role in this constantly changing path of nature (if that makes any sense). I love how he constantly zooms out to see the bigger picture, the bigger picture which is even bigger than his own life. We are so insignificant in the entire universe, and such a small point in time, compared to the millions of years that are yet to come.

This one time one of my roomates had an aggressive breakdown and had some major issues with everyone in the place I live and I suddenly started to realize why she does the things she does and says the mean things she says does because she was bound to do that! She had no choice - due to her whatever circumstances! Is that so unnatural? I actually started to appreciate her anger in a weird way and smiled realizing that where she is coming from makes complete sense in my head.

However, what I think meditations lacks is the importance of character. I see all of this, but I do not know what it means to have good character (I understand virtue and it makes sense to do the right thing etc., but practically in my life it is hard to integrate that). I also want to add he never explicitly talks about the dichotomy of control, but I get the general essence of it.

My main question is - if you were to describe the main essence of this philosophy what would it be? And did I capture the same/do I have a good understanding of what Stoicism is about?

Still new to this so I am keen to learn more!

Edit: I understand fate. I don’t seem to quite understand how to apply rational thinking and logic when coming across situations. I think Meditations help me thinks in a certain way, and it definitely allows me to see things from a much more zoomed out perspective, and hence to some extent this forces me to act in a more positive way.

Seneca says that Stoics should keep likenesses of great men and even celebrate their birthdays (Letters, 64). He lists his favourite philosophical role-models as:

• Socrates
• Plato – somewhat surprisingly for a Stoic
• Zeno, the founder of Stoicism
• Cleanthes, the second head of the Stoa
• Laelius the Wise
• Cato of Utica

When Epictetus is telling his students who they should aspire to be like the philosophers he mentions most frequently are Socrates and Diogenes the Cynic, he also mentions Zeno and Cleanthes but more frequently than them he refers to Chrysippus. Epictetus also praises Heraclitus and Pythagoras.

Marcus Aurelius lists Socrates, Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Epictetus, and Chrysippus, as the philosophers he particularly admires.

Some things that might perhaps be noteworthy...

• It seems odd that Seneca lists Zeno and Cleanthes but doesn't mention Chrysippus, the most prolific and influential of the early Stoics, especially as Epictetus and Marcus do name him as a great philosopher.
• It's also striking that Seneca lists Plato and one perhaps gets the impression that he takes the place given by Epictetus to Diogenes the Cynic. Plato and Diogenes were traditionally seen as representing two quite contrasting (almost opposite) attitudes toward what it means to be a philosopher.
• It's also interesting that Seneca names Cato and Laelius, two Romans from the Republic, whereas Epictetus tends to praise members of the Stoic Opposition such as Paconius Agrippinus and Helvidius Priscus, who were critical of Nero.
• Seneca perhaps seems less interested in Heraclitus than Epictetus and Marcus were.

It may be that Seneca was more aligned with a form of Middle Stoicism that held Plato in higher regard. Epictetus was arguably returning to an old school version of Stoicism, which particularly revered the Cynics for their self-discipline. (Seneca, of course, says a lot more than Epictetus about Epicureanism but his remarks are complex and although they appear favourable at first glance on closer inspection he was actually very critical of this philosophy.)

Basically, I am wondering if being a bit selfish and cold towards others comes with the territory of stoicism. I still care about others. I don’t want to be a complete heartless dickhead but is that something that needs to change in order for me to continue on this path? I know I need to stop caring about things like that altogether and I am working on it. I have always been a very anxious guy and I am sick of that overthinking, it has only ever caused me pain, so I really want to change my personality altogether.

If these are the only two choices. Embracing the anger and letting it give you the energy to do things - pursue your goals, do basic self-care, try to prove doubters wrong, supress self-doubt etc.

Or on the other hand, teach yourself to not allow your anger to motivate you. And then replace it with nothing else, because you haven't yet found anything else. And then languish, throw away your potential because you don't have the drive (same as how many people with ADHD lack cognitive energy to do things, unless they have something to create a sense of urgency like an imminent deadline to put their brain in gear. Or anger).

I can remember being much more motivated and making more progress in life (in tangible ways) when I allowed my anger to be a gift. It made me long-term better off. Motivated me to self-advocate, to work dilligently at work during times when I had no other motivation (I did have other motivations, like helping service users or honouring my manager, but I'm talking about reality, and in reality those motivations weren't ALWAYS there every second of every shift. I see motivation like an regenerating onion, with multiple layers - when one layer is gone you rely on another, when that one is fading the other layer has already grown back. More layers, the better), to say "fuck it" and put myself into situations I was scared of or to stop procrastinating.

Removing my anger or telling myself I shouldn't use it hasn't helped my motivation levels at all (I'm not new to this. I first started doing the "count to 10" when I was 13yo, over 15 years ago, as my father had explosive rage problems and I didn't want to be like him. I also worked on being less argumentative and "turning the other cheek". By 14 it was almost impossible to make me more than mildly annoyed (and paved the way for depression to take hold, since I'd thrown away my personality (at the same time as I'd just moved cities, so had no friends who knew the old me to help me get it back), lost my sense of self and became "boring" to others) which increased bullying against me, but that's not the topic here. Point is I'm not new to the idea of controlling anger. I've been into combat sports for a long time, and for years practiced walking the line between anger and control - so that you get a strength/focus/reaction boost from adrenaline, but retain your cognition to make smart decisions). Being able to internally say "fuck it" and be a little angry when you're tired and badly sleep-deprived, but still want to attend a hobby after work, or going outside to do an errand that will move your life forward when you're nervous or procrastinating, is better to look back on a year later, than doing nothing - I've never looked back on inaction and thought "oh yes, I'm glad I did nothing". Likewise, I've never looked back on beneficial actions and thought "oh dear, that action was beneficial to my life and congruent with my life objectives, but I regret doing it because I used anger as a partial fuel".

What might the stoics say is better between these two?

Sometimes in life people can't afford to sit around reading philosophy - there are bills to pay, and our biological clock is ticking.

Welcome to the New Agora, a place for you and others to have casual conversations, seek advice and first aid, and hang out together outside of regular posts.

If you have not already, please the READ BEFORE POSTING top-pinned post.

The rules in the New Agora are simple:

1. Above all, keep in mind that our nature is "civilized and affectionate and trustworthy."
2. If you are seeking advice based on users' personal views as people interested in Stoicism, you may leave one top-level comment about your question per day.
3. If you are offering advice, you may offer your own opinions as someone interested in Stoic theory and/or practice--but avoid labeling personal opinions, idiosyncratic experiences, and even thoughtful conjecture as Stoic.
4. If you are promoting something that you have created, such as an article or book you wrote, you may do so only one time per day, but do not post your own YouTube videos.

While this thread is new, the above rules may change in response to things that we notice or that are brought to our attention.

As always, you are encouraged to report activity that you believe should not belong here. Similarly, you are welcome to pose questions, voice concerns, and offer other feedback to us either publicly in threads or privately by messaging the mods.

Wish you well in the New Agora.

Hello, all. Looking for stoic advice on work. Long story short, I’m an anesthesiology resident, as such I don’t set my hours, which average anywhere from 50-80 hours/week. I like the actual practice of anesthesia, but the hours are long and can be very depressing at times. Some days I find meaning, but others I struggle to find any meaning (e.g. if I’m in a case for placement of a penile prosthesis, or a 96 year old with no quality of life getting a procedure to live an extra week).

Lately I just find work and the pursuit of money to be pointless. I would much rather be a self-sufficient farmer than go to a hospital that doesn’t value me and I don’t always find value in. However, I’m in year 11 of 12 of training since finishing high school and it seems silly to quit at this point.

TLDR: how does a stoic perspective help find meaning in a modern job

So my friends used my phone while I wasn't there because I was taking a test, and I'm sure they've checked up my gallery, back then my gallery is full of obscene pictures or basically Nudinity, those photos are already in my trash bin in my cellphone but they still managed to check it out, I know they won't bring it up on in front of me but I'm just afraid of what they're going to think of me differently, I'm not the same person I was whose always on phub and in constant pain under the sin of lust, is there anything I can even do to make them think I'm not the same person I was? Any advice and help would do, thanks! (Excuse my bad English)

I got hurt by a group of people a year ago, and its taken me about half of this year to really find myself again and start to enjoy life to the fullest. However, no matter how much time passes and how happy I am, i keep going back to comparing every potential problem to that one.

I constantly find myself asking 'what if this goes wrong just like x situation?' 'what if I'm unaware of a problem going on behind my back right now like i was then?' and I don't know how to stop comparing everything to what I went through then.

Everytime some small disagreements or fights come up with friends, I think 'everything's going wrong again like it did'. I hate how much autonomy I give them over my current life, even though they aren't in it. I want to look at experiences and hurt to come as new ones and not a continuation of old patterns. Please share some insight on this, I feel really trapped in this cycle

Hello all. This has been a very positive community for me and glad I joined. I am hoping you guys can help me, as I am going in for a day surgery on Friday and looking to apply stoicism to this event in my life.

Please let me know if any quotes or chapters come to mind that may help. Thanks!