Catelyn's was Bran. Jon Arya were each other's favorites. I think Sansa's was probably Catelyn. If I had to guess for Ned, I'd say Arya just because she looks so much like Lyanna. Bran and Rickon I would guess that Robb is their favorite as he's the model they'd want to follow.

What about Robb? We only see him interact with Jon, Bran and Catelyn. And we see that he obviously loves all of them dearly.

Ghost has a pink nose 🥰

That is all(bino)

Ser Gerold Hightower

Prince Lewyn Martell

Ser Barristan Selmy

Ser Oswell Whent

Ser Arthur Dayne

Ser Jonothor Darry

Would they have killed Aerys and the pyromancers, or just stopped him?

Who exactly outranks who as far as ruthlessness is concerned?

1.) Theon Stark: After defeating the Andals in battle, sailed to Andalos, burned dozens of villages to the ground, as a well as a Sept, then mounted the heads of those he slew on pikes and displayed them all along his coast.

2.) Tywin Lannister: After defeating them in battle, brought down the Tarbeck's walls and burnt their castle to the ground, and then flooded Castamere drowning everyone inside.

So I have been wondering... if Robbs Will indeed legitimizes Jon, does that only count as a Stark? Or does it remove bastardy in general? If R+L=J was revealed AND proven, would that make Jon a legitimate Targaryen as well or only a Stark?

I think it doesnt matter, since the last Name doesnt matter in inheritance. Even with a Stark surname Jon would be the last living legitimate child of Rhaegar -> So next in line after Rhaegar.

But still something I wonder

does anyone else think grrm lowkey writes poc characters/cultures weird? like out of the few there are in asoiaf, they mostly revolve around sex or violence. The dornish/martells being extremely sexual, same with the summer islanders, chataya/alyaya. Like when the dothraki was introduced, their skin colour was striking in their decriptions and everywhere, with them being violent rapists.

Like i get asoiaf is based off a medieval europe, so there wouldnt be much POC characters, and thats fine, but like when they do appear why do they have to be super sexual or violent lmfaoo

The Reach under House Gardener was arguably the most powerful of the pre conquest kingdoms. How much of the continent do you they could have conquered and held in the long term?

They don't have dragons and don't have the knowledge of statecraft and administration that the Targaryen's more than likely brought from the freehold. As well as that if they go hard, the other regions may form pacts to defend against them.

I think their realistic extent would be conquering the crownlands/blackwater bay, western parts of the Stormlands like the Dornish marches but not the rest like the Shipwrecker bay and weeping town. I'd say their southern extent in the region would be to Stonehelm. The Stormlands strike me as the type with a strong martial background and they would be well dug in in this scenario.

In the Westerlands, I think they could conquer some southern and eastern parts but wouldn't be able to take the rock itself due to Lannister wealth, geographic advantage and houses in the Riverlands allying to stop the Reach's expansion.

Also do you think he would ever officially name stannis his heir? Or would he tip toe around it like viserys and daemon

I'm listening to AGOT after reading it a few times.

Had the events of the first book not happened, I.e. Ned's time as Hand is stable, Sansa's betrothal to Joff happens, etc., how long do you think Arya would have gone on practicing water dancing before the secret gets out? How do you think this would have affected the Stark's time at court? What do you think the larger consequences would have been for her? Had Arya continued to practice water dancing, do you think she would be a good swordswoman?

Anyone with the proper training can be a good enough warrior, but do you think Arya has the mental and personality characteristics to be a fearsome adversary, or do you think that it is the events of the series that hardens her into what she is

Dawn is said to have almost all the same characteristics as Valyrian steel, except color. It's so unique and so old, that many fans believe that it is the legendary Lightbringer.

My theory: It is Lightbringer AND it is Valyrian steel (essentially).

Making Valyrian steel involves fire magic and blood magic as did many of the freehold's accomplishments. Valyrians were also slavers.

I think they quenched the still hot blades in blood, by stabbing slaves through the heart, and that the dark color of Valyrian steel blades is due to the "dark" nature of their creation.

Dawn/Lightbringer were made in a similar fashion, with the key difference being that Nissa Nissa sacrificed herself willingly. I think this is why the blade is so pure and light instead of the dark color of Valyrian steel.

TLDR Dawn/Lightbringer is a Valyrian steel blade quenched in the blood of love vs unwilling slaves.

From everything were told about Stannis he comes off as asexual maybe alittle gay. It’s alittle hard to believe that he and Mel are bumping uglies but who knows Mel does say with Stannis gone her bed is rarely used so I don’t know. Will we ever find out?

For me I think it’s the North. The North in WOW will be the Mereenese knot is to ADWDS with so many storylines set to converge in the North it’s insane to think about;

1.the Stark kids reuniting how does he do that in a realistic way

2.Stannis is another does he live or die how does he deal with new factions joining the war

3. Davos what’s his story going to be?

4.Jons resurrection

5. Dark Jon how dark is Jon going to be in winds

6. The Wildlings how do you get them all to cross the wall

7. The food crises

8. The others how does he advance them we haven’t seen them since Storm

9. Plus the ironborn

The North is a crazy storyline

Hi everyone! This isn’t a long theory, but I realized why Craster kills the boys and wanted to share it. It has nothing to do with “The Others” but rather with the brothers.

Here’s the thing, Craster is unique among the wildlings for a few reasons. Unlike most wildling women who don’t seem to find it weird if their baby’s father just vanishes, his mother seemed to care about him knowing where he came from. That would explain why she went looking for the Crow who fathered him.

Knowing made him different. Since he knew his father was “the enemy”, and most wildlings believe that kinslayers are “cursed” he became “friends” with the men of the Watch, since they’re supposed to be brothers, and therefore his kin.

Here’s the tragic part about his life that also relates to Bael’s song. In the story, after the man sings his songs, the Stark offers him to name the reward, and Bael asks “for the flower”, meaning his daughter. 

Now, when you consider the song from the wildlings point of view, that’s a fair trade, since the Stark got Bael’s “brave blood”. Basically, they trade the daughter for the man’s blood.

That’s exactly what was going on in the Keep, Craster was “buying” the brothers with the women. The brothers kept coming to his place because he was willing to betray his kind by telling the brothers where to find the people they were looking for, but he was also willing to “pay” for those visits with the girls.

The women were trained not to make a sound, unlike wildling women who fight men if they don’t find them worthy, Craster’s daughters were trained to kept quiet when the brothers raped them.

Killing the boys was just Craster’s way of keeping “the business” open. Having a son was dangerous, since like Bael’s song proves at the end, he could become a shield for his mother.

So in Kevan's epilogue he reflects how much Cersei has changed; she is now subdued and hides behind more modest clothing, bathes seven times a day. And in general seems defeated unlike the scheming, threatening Cersei we love but there is this exchange:

She nodded. “Uncle, may I ask you a question?”

“Whatever you wish.

”Your wife … do you mean to bring her to court?”

“No." Dorna was a gentle soul, never comfortable but at home with friends and kin around her. She had done well by their children, dreamed of having grandchildren, prayed seven times a day, loved needlework and flowers. In King’s Landing she would be as happy as one of Tommen’s kittens in a pit of vipers. “My lady wife mislikes travel. Lannisport is her place.”

“It is a wise woman who knows her place.” He did not like the sound of that.“Say what you mean. ”

“I thought I did.” Cersei held out her cup. The freckled girl filllled it once again. The cream cakes appeared then, and the conversation took a lighter turn.

What did she mean? was this a veiled threat? Is it all an act? was the threat at Lady Dorna a crack in her facade?

Assuming we even get an ending to this beautiful story - how happy on a scale from 1-10 would you be with a Jon and Dany shared rule ending?

However unlikely this ending is, I for one, would be very happy with a nice romantic, hopeful ending. This story has enough sadness, loss and tragedy, and this ending could be bittersweet too - all of the dragons could perish against the Others, and a lot of characters are doomed to die in the following books.

I would honestly love to see these two broken, rejected and traumatized children unite and try their best to fix Westeros. In my mind, there is hardly any argument that Jon and Dany are the best hypothetical rulers in this entire story - both are very compassionate, but they are capable of harsh justice too. They are also both very progressive, so the order and power structure of Westeros could very likely change.

I personally believe that these two characters earned some semblance of a happy ending.
It could be a nice little Aragorn and Arwen. And we could get to know their tax policy, too.

I'm rereading A Dance with Dragons and pondering on the implications of Griff's identity. If he is indeed Jon Connington, and Young Griff is a Blackfyre (the "mummer's dragon") rather than a Targaryen, where does that leave Griff's loyalties? Is he aware of and complicit in the Blackfyre plot to seize the throne? If not, and he's been manipulated by Varys and Illyrio, his reaction as Rhaegar's former friend, caught in the middle of a Blackfyre conspiracy, would be explosive and unpredictable. But if he is unaware, what motivates him? After all this time, does he subscribe to Illyrio's supposed pragmatism – "black or red, a dragon is a dragon"? That seems unlikely.

Is it more plausible that Jon has been unknowingly used for years, or that Young Griff is genuinely Aegon Targaryen?

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Ned warning Cersei that he knew the truth isn't what got Robert killed. Why do I say this? Because by the time that conversation took place, Robert was already miles away from the capital, on the boar hunt and probably already drinking the fortified wine.

That makes me wonder why fans ever got this mixed up in the first place. Like..........where did people get the idea that Cersei came up with her "plan (if you could even call it that) to have Robert killed after Ned warned her? Robert and co. were days away from the capital. If she came up with the plan to get Robert drunk only after her and Ned's conversation, then that would've required her to have to send a raven to Lancel, and there's no way that he would've been able to read said letter before Robert himself, Renly or Ser Barristan.

Then there's the fact that when Cersei and Tyrion spoke about the coup, she told him that if Sansa hadn't told her about Ned's plans to get her and her sister out of King's Landing, she would never have known that she'd have to make plans to have Robert killed.

There's also the fact that when Ned confronted her, she didn't even try to deny it, she openly and proudly admitted her incest. That should be an implication that her plan to have Robert killed was already set into motion long before they had their talk.

I’ve listened to the Reek/Theon story in ADWD 3 or 4 times- this last time I noticed a line I missed previously “he took my fingers, my toes and that one other thing” previous to this I was really unsure if Theon has been gelded in the books but this line really did it in for me. After that all the “I am not a man” lines and “you are not a man” from Ramsey- furthered this belief. I can’t think of what “other thing” would’ve been taken. He’s got his nose, his ears, and appears to have all other limbs and parts.

I know he talks about wanting to fuck one of Mance’s women, but this is also when he is more Theon than Reek so I’m not sure that convinces me.

Thoughts?

I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently. Out of all Reach houses, which one do you think has the strongest claim to Highgarden? We know Tyrells are considered upjumped stewards who Aegon put in power, and we're also told House Florent has a superior claim Highgarden than thier overlords, but 'superior claim' doesn't mean 'best claim'. Is it possible there are other houses with an even stronger claim than the Tyrells or the Florents? The World of Ice and Fire has a passage that reads:

It cannot be denied that the Oakhearts of Old Oak, the Florents of Brightwater Keep, the Rowans of Goldengrove, the Peakes of Starpike, and the Redwynes of the Arbor all had older and more distinguished lineages than the Tyrells, and closer blood ties to House Gardener as well.

The way this is worded doesn't seem to imply the Florents have the overall best claim, but rather that they have a better claim than the Tyrells. Indeed, the text makes no mention of seniority among the houses with closer ties to the Gardeners. I suppose you could argue for the Oakhearts, seeing as they are mentioned first, but without specific details, it's hard to say for sure.

What about you, guys? If you had to guess, which house (Oakheart, Florent, Rowan, or Redwyne) do you think has the strongest claim to Highgarden, considering the lineages and blood ties mentioned in the passage?

Any thoughts?

So, in Davos ii of COK he and Stannis are talking and Stannis is thinking about how much Robert and Renly were loved while he is only treated with fear and suspicion.

"Robert could piss in a cup and men would call it wine, but I offer them pure cold water and they squint in suspicion and mutter to each other about how queer it tastes." Stannis ground his teeth.

Its a pretty interesting exchange, as Stannis is one of the few people in the narrative who actually drink water. The only other people I can remember are one of Tyrion's hillmen and the half hand.

But despite preaching about cold, pure water he doesnt actually drink his water pure.

Stannis took off his crown and handed it to Devan. "Cold water*, cups for two. Davos, attend me. My lady, I shall send for you when I require you."*

Devan set the tray on the table and filled two clay cups. The king sprinkled a pinch of salt in his cup before he drank; Davos took his water straight, wishing it were wine

Stannis adulterates his water and Davos drinks it pure but hates the taste. I feel like this was deliberate on Martin's part but I am not sure what the meaning is

So I want to start reading it, I found the graphic novel for the first 2 (Hedge knight and sword sword, last one was the same price for the two combined so I'm not buying it) books at a good price 40$ for both, and for the full normal novel would be around 10$ now I'm wondering, what should I read (first read)? at first I thought it was just the normal novel with a few official artwork here and there, but it's a comic, is it 100% similar to the original? I have only read 1 comic and a few Mangas, I loved Invincible and read through them all in 3 months, so I don't mind either. But I'm hesitant that it might sacrifice good storytellers for art, what do you think?

For a martial culture such as Westeros, surprisingly little is said, thought, or explored regarding a noble household post as common and important as a maester or septa: the castle's Master-At-Arms.

The Master-At-Arms is often painted as a tutor in personal combat by our noble characters, but it's important to note that this is only one of their duties - and the one most likely to be remembered by the POV characters. A Master-At-Arms also appears to muster, train, and manage their lord's garrison to a partial or entire degree, and aside from the arts of sword, bow, and horse, they also supplement a maester's lessons in warcraft and battlefield discipline.

Still, a Master-At-Arms is foremost a teacher leader to noble children and their household's soldiers. In Westeros, the skills of a single warrior or entire company is often attributed to inborn talent or even ethnic characteristics, but one cannot discount the quality of their education. Limiting ourselves to the era of ASOIAF (excluding figures like Quentyn Ball or Lucas Lothston), let's look at some of the named and confirmed Masters-At-Arms, and the evidence of their tutelage in their former students.

Ser Alliser Thorne (Castle Black) | Students: Jon Snow, Samwell Tarly, Pypar, Grenn, etc etc etc

Easy to start with the undisputed worst to ever do it. Ser Alliser is honorable and by all measures an excellent knight and ranger - and a terrible teacher. His open disdain for his charges - motivated by personal grudges, prejudice against the lowborn, or even his own capricious moods - translates into countless sessions of wasted learning time which served to only terrorize his students.

Ser Endrew Tarth (Castle Black) | Students: Satin, Hop-Robin, Arron, Emrick, etc

Jon, who suffered under Thorne and flourished under better instructors, notes that Ser Endrew's training is "gentler" than Thorne's, but no less bruising. We know little beyond this, but it confirms at least that he must be better than his predecessor.

"Iron" Emmet (Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, Castle Black) | Students: Hop-Robin, Arron, Emrick, etc

An exceptional swordsman and natural teacher who enjoys his work. Emmet is held in high esteem by his sparring partner, and future Lord Commander Jon Snow, and Cotter Pyke bemoans losing him to Castle Black.

Glendon Hewett (Eastwatch-by-the-Sea)

Little is known of Glendon's skill as a teacher, nor his students (are recruits even trained at Eastwatch?). However, Jon confirms that he is "capable", despite his questionable loyalties and friendships.

Leathers (Castle Black) | Students: Night's Watch Recruits at Castle Black as of ADWD

A warrior of tremendous skill, noted by Jon for his versatility and ability. He utilizes terror and brutality, but not in a way which merits comparison to Ser Alliser - rather, Jon notes it as a useful and productive teaching method. Time will have to show how his students fare in the wars to come.

Ser Rodrik Cassel (Winterfell) | Students: Robb "The Young Wolf" Stark, Jon Snow, Theon Greyjoy, Bran Stark

The most prominent Master-at-Arms character in the novels, and possibly the best one overall. Robb Stark is good with a sword, better on horseback, and one of the most celebrated battle commanders of his era. Theon Greyjoy is a marksman with few visible peers. Jon Snow is above-average in almost every protagonist-appropriate show of arms. Before his accident, Bran is an excellent rider. Moreover, Ser Rodrik serves his household with extraordinary zeal and service, and the Winterfell garrison has never shown any signs of poor leadership.

Dagmer Cleftjaw (Pyke) | Students: Rodrik Greyjoy (presumed), Maron Greyjoy (presumed), Theon Greyjoy, Asha Greyjoy (possible)

Tied for second-most prominent Master-of-Arms character in the novels, Dagmer alone is a fearsome warrior and reaver, with a reputation stretching as far as Winterfell. Whatever education Theon received from him in his very early childhood, then again in his young adulthood as raiding peers, was likely of a high quality even if Theon himself was a poor practitioner of the lessons learned.

Ser Desmond Grell (Riverrun) | Students: Edmure Tully

Tied for second-most prominent Master-of-Arms character in the novels, Ser Desmond is a man of quality. Lord Edmure gets a lot of criticism, but he shows valor and competence in battle command, and his most notable failure of archery was due to extraordinary emotional distress. Ser Desmond commands Riverrun as castellan, and its garrison is able to withstand one of the most complete sieges of the War of the Five Kings.

Strong Sam Stone (Runestone) I Students: Andar Royce (presumed), Robar Royce (presumed), Waymar Royce (presumed)

Samwell Stone has a reputation for being "a fantastic" Master-At-Arms. Bronze Yohn is also not one to suffer incompetents in his household. If Strong Sam is the one to have tutored Lord Royce's sons, we can assume he must be at least good at it... even if all three of the Royce sons' most notable deeds involve their death and defeat. Ser Andar was unhorsed by The Kingslayer Jaime Lannister, then killed by the Next Kingslayer, the unnamed boar of the Kingswood. Ser Robar was defeated at tournament by, then later killed in a rage by, Ser Loras Tyrell. Ser Waymar was killed by an Other beyond the Wall in single combat. Despite these losses, the Royces acquitted themselves in war and battle well enough to be defeated by no less than the most notorious killers in Westeros.

Ser Goodwin (Evenfall Hall) | Students: Brienne "The Beauty" of Tarth

Not only is Ser Goodwin's only student one of, if not the, greatest overall fighters in Westeros - but he exercised differentiated and culturally-responsive instruction in order to get her to that point. In Brienne's memory, Ser Goodwin explicitly gives her lessons on how her sex will be perceived by other warriors, and using firm knowledge of the craft and art of personal combat, bestows upon her extraordinarily valuable lessons she uses to great success.

Ser Willem Darry (The Red Keep) | Student: Rhaegar Targaryen

A good man and true. Prince Rhaegar became his student later in life, but had a meteoric rise in skill and fame under his tutelage. Beyond his skill at arms and battle, Ser Willem's kindness and self-sacrifice to the royal family indicate not only a loyal soul, but a kind one as well.

Ser Aron Santagar (The Red Keep) | Students: Joffrey Baratheon, Tommen Baratheon

The Crown Princes show no discipline or aptitude for sword, horse, or tactics. Ser Aron himself was slain by four peasants armed with a rock. Ser Rodrik is friendly with him, and good teachers rarely have patience for bad teachers, but there's little to indicate that Ser Aron was much more than a political appointment to appease the Dornish.

Of all the notable Masters-At-Arms of this era, Ser Rodrik appears to be the best of the best. Other Masters-at-Arms are mentioned, but not in their capacity as instructors (for instance, Ser Gawen Wylde who attempted to betray Storm's End to the Tyrells). However, there are two Masters-At-Arms who have no details about them whatsoever mentioned in the novels beyond their existence being technically confirmed via Appendices. These two bear mentioning here, however, because in absence of any other details, we can only rely on their possible living students - and if indeed they were their students, that indicates that these men must have been Masters in Arms in ability as much as in name.

Ser Benedict Broom (Casterly Rock) | Student: Jaime "The Kingslayer" Lannister (Possible)

The Kingslayer remembers his tutors as the great knights and Kingsguard of his era, but he must have learned arms at Casterly Rock before he was recognized as the finest swordsman of his era as a teen. However, we know nothing of Ser Benedict other than his name, and so there's actually very little to assume he's old enough and has been in his position long enough to have taught Ser Jaime. It's actually possible that Tygett Lannister was the Master-at-Arms at Casterly Rock, given Jaime's fond memory of him, and Tywin's attempt to place him in that position at the Red Keep under Aerys II. In fact, Ser Benedict is only confirmed to exist in the Appendices for ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD - which indicates that his services have been retained recently. However, the opposite is true for...

Ser Vortimer Crane (Highgarden) | Students: Willas Tyrell (presumed), Ser Garlan "The Gallant" Tyrell (presumed), Ser Loras "The Knight of Flowers" Tyrell (presumed)

Literally nothing is said in the text about the Master-at-Arms of Highgarden, and he is only named in the AGOT Appendix. If this mysterious knight is indeed the man who taught Willas (who despite an early and ignominious defeat at tournament, continues to display a keen mind for horsemanship), Ser Garlan, and Ser Loras, he must be a peerless instructor in the arts of war.

Who's missing? What other details or implications are in the text about these underappreciated tutors? Based on their locations and time periods, what other characters may they have trained? What can we assume about the various unnamed and unseen Masters-At-Arms around Westeros, based on the noble households they serve?

I'll admit my bias: I love Jaime. He's my second favorite character behind his brother. I'm curious what people would qualify as his worst act.

Say what you will about Alliser Thorne. He is needlessly unpleasant, and that's why everyone hates him. But for the modern Watch, he has an impeccable reputation.

The reason Alliser had to join The Watch was because he stayed loyal to King Aerys. Something which usually didn't even get people a slap on the wrist from Robert. The one person who forced Alliser to sign his life away for that was Tywin, someone much more complicit in Aerys' misdeeds, but who turned on him at the opportune moment. Not only that, but Alliser was doing the knightly duty of defending the weak and innocent from the particularly rough sack of King's Landing. So now Alliser has to spend his life shivering in the arse-end of nowhere with little hope for glory or love.

Yes, Alliser is a bully. But that's very much his assigned role in this setting. He's the medieval equivalent of a drill sergeant with mostly unwilling, unwanted, untrained recruits. Hazing is the default solution.

Imagine being him for a minute. Yeah, its unpleasant, but push past it. This little brat insulted your authority, tried to stab you, shagged a wildling girl, consorts with a rebel and his heathen priestess, let known raiders through the wall, and wants to break even more of the vows you have been following longer than he has been alive. He is now in charge.

He's ordering you to take two other rangers on what you reasonably believe to be a suicide mission. Jon could have given Alliser Long Barrow instead of Iron Emmett. Alliser grumbles about it, but he does what is ordered, not just because Jon would chop his head off, but because Alliser takes his vows seriously.

As a reader, I do think Jon making peace with the Wildlings, was one of the most profoundly good and necessary achievements in the story. But I also get why Alliser hated Jon so much.

I’m not sure if this was mentioned in text?

When Lord Arryn found out the truth about the parentage of Joffrey, Marcella and Tommen, he was prepared to bring the truth to Robert, but just before he could, he was poisoned by Lysa (the bitch). And while on his deathbed, he kept saying, "the seed is strong."

However, what if that hadn't been the case? What if he somehow managed to reveal the truth the Robert? Let's say that he called Robert into his chambers and said this:

JA: "Listen Robert. I don't have much time left, but I have to tell you something, and I'll say it as quickly as I can."

BB: "What is Jon? Say it?"

JA: "Those children of Cersei's. T-They're n-no-not....."

BB: "They're not what? SPIT IT OUT OLD MAN!!!!! THEY'RE NOT WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?"

JA: "They're not............(with his final breath) y-yo-yours."

(As soon as he said that word, Jon Arryn breathed his final breath and closed his eyes.)

What happens from here?

He was just doing what Joffrey ordered him to. Would you want to deal with a psychotic teenage boy that fully becomes king in a couple years?

So I'm not sure which chapter this was from but I'm pretty sure it had been said or at least along the lines, I think Coldhands to Bran. But the wun wun passed the wall, and there was the wight who tried to kill Mormont, or are giants not magical beings and wights can pass but not the Others?

I may be in the minority, but I actually really liked Arys Oakheart and I enjoy his chapter. I thought getting a POV from a kingsguards not named Jaime was interesting (Barristan wasn't a POV yet).

That said, obviously with hindsight we can see he was the wrong person to send to Dorne. Oddly, I feel like Mandon Moore may have been the best choice. And I'm not just saying that because he almost killed Tyrion, somebody else would've been tasked to do it.

Mandon is so emotionless, almost sociopath like, that I don't think Arianne could have charmed him. And if you give him the lone assignment of protecting Myrcella, he'd just do that to the end.

Edit: doesn't have to be a kingsguard either.

As of the end of ADWD, who knows about the Spicers' betrayal of the Northern cause? And specifically, do the Tullys know?

Tywin naturally kept the planning pretty close to his chest - in ASOS, he tells Tyrion "No one was told, save those who had a part to play. And they were only told as much as they needed to know" - and in the same book, Kevan gives Jaime the royal pardon for "Lord Gawen Westerling, his lady wife, and his daughter Jeyne, welcoming them back into the king's peace." Now, already here, we as readers (and the rest of Westeros) know that Tywin is ruthless when it comes to his enemies. So, to those who don't know what happened behind the scenes re: the Red Wedding, does this pardon already point to something, some deeper plot that involved the Westerlings?

When Jaime turns up in the Riverlands a book later, we learn that Gawen Westerling is nervous about his family being inside Riverrun. Daven Lannister tells Jaime, "I have Lord Gawen Westerling tugging at my other sleeve. The Blackfish has his lady wife inside the castle, along with three of his snot-nosed whelps. His lordship fears Tully will kill them if the Freys hang Edmure." Gawen's fears of the Blackfish harming his family imply that he believes the Blackfish knows about the betrayal.

Finally, when Jaime speaks to Sybell Spicer, he reminds her "House Westerling has its pardon, and your brother Rolph has been made Lord of Castamere." If the pardon wasn't enough to raise suspicions regarding the Westerlings/Spicers, then giving Rolph Spicer a lordship is certainly confirmation.

I understand no one has smartphones in Westeros and is getting instant new alerts, but we know news - and gossip - does travel, especially in times of war where there is a great movement of people and as it relates to royal decrees.

So my question is, by the end of the books, how widely known is the Westerling/Spicer betrayal? Is it reasonable to assume the Blackfish would have known, as he was cooped up in Riverrun with a crying Jeyne as she argued with her mother? Is it reasonable to assume Edmure knows or will learn as he travels on the caravan out of Riverrun with them? What about the rest of Westeros?