/r/pureasoiaf

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/r/PureASOIAF is a discussion forum devoted to the book series A Song of Ice and Fire and associated written works by George R.R. Martin. This subreddit focuses only on the written works and does not allow content from the popular HBO adaptations of GRRM's written work.

/r/PureASOIAF is a discussion forum devoted to the book series A Song of Ice and Fire and associated written works by George R.R. Martin. This subreddit focuses only on the written works and does not allow content from the popular HBO adaptations of GRRM's written work.


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113

A Targaryen has never failed to tame a dragon. Recently had a discussion about this and I cannot find evidence that suggests otherwise.

By Targaryen I mean an actual legitimate member of House Targaryen i.e. Aerea Targaryen, Danaerys Targaryen etc. The closest example I can think of is Aerea and whilst I do think she tamed Balerion, she failed to control him. An excerpt of Aemonds attempt on Vhagar highlights the danger of attempting to tame an older and powerful dragon which also reinforces the fact that she did tame Balerion but failed to control him in contrast to popular opinion.

"Even for a son of House Targaryen, there are always dangers in approaching a dragon, particularly an old, bad-tempered dragon who has recently lost her rider. His father and mother would never allow him to go near Vhagar, Aemond knew, much less try to ride her."

84 Comments
2024/03/20
22:35 UTC

63

If ASOIAF will need more than two books, what titles do you think we get?

A Game of Thrones

A Storm of Swords

A Clash of Kings

A Feast for Crows

A dance With Dragons

The Winds of Winter, we know.

But to me could be cool to have something like

A Crown for Krakens

A Tangle of Thorns

A Fall of Autumn

The Talons of Robins

A Place for Bones

The Flame of Doom

A Cry for Freedom

A Time for Wolves, sad it was discarded

A Dream of Spring, we know.

The Children of Summer

69 Comments
2024/03/20
21:34 UTC

47

Did Doran make a mistake by sending the Red Viper to KL instead of Essos in your opinion ?

Making it clear he would stir up trouble, which Doran then laments so sadly. Yet he still sent his brother into that situation. It doesn't ring true to me. And it certainly plays up Doran's veneer of being weak and feeble, the ruler who couldn't even control his own brother and still sent him into a dangerous situation.

this is from shymaid

13 Comments
2024/03/20
14:57 UTC

2

Aegon IVs "Dragons"

Hi all. Reading up a bit on Aegon the unworthy and I was very much interested in his artificial dragon concept.

Any of y'all seen artistic representations of these supposedly monstrous devices? I feel like the description is vague yet fanciful enough to provide fuel to some striking art pieces. How big would they have been? How intricately carved/ decorated? What did it look like when they exploded?

Please feel free to share your personal conceptions of these devices below! I might be tempted to attempt sketching one in the future, though I'm no digital painter.

Thanks for reading, if indeed you did. Seven blessings to ya.

2 Comments
2024/03/19
20:45 UTC

12

Where is Robb’s squire? A Frey Civil War Analysis

There are two popular theories as to where Robb’s squire, Olyvar Frey, is at this point in our story:
He's Gyles’ ward at Rosby, or he's the half-uncle at castle Darry
These are two excellent theories (and they’re short, so give them a look if you haven’t already), that unfortunately can’t both be true. So here are three resolutions, starting with...

1) Olyvar is at Darry, and someone else is Gyles Rosby’s ward

EDIT: I checked back and this one doesn't work, Falyse calls the ward a "he". Nr 2 and 3 could still be true though.

It could be that Rosby’s ward is just some character we’ve never heard of, but that would be an immensely unsatisfying narrative cop-out. It’s set up as a mystery, so we expect it to be solvable. So let’s see, we need a Rosby, but not Olyvar. Well, that leaves the children of Bethany as our only option (which works since many of their Frey relatives have been fostered at maternal family members) ^(1)

However, Olyvar’s brother Benfrey died before the ward was mentioned. His second brother Perwyn was at Riverrun in 300 AC, making the timelines not add up (also, he has already been knighted, so he's an unlikely prospect for a ward). His last brother, Willamen, is a sworn maester in the Vale, so this is not possible either. His cousins Della and Osmund are very young children, so they can’t take charge of the castle like Stokeworth talks about the ward doing.

So that leaves only one candidate... Roslin Frey, the wife of Edmure Tully. !!!

Think about it: she likely wants to get away from her crazy family. Falyse Stokeworth complained that the ward would not allow her and Balmon access to Rosby, which she wouldn’t do if she wants the castle and/or hates the Lannisters. She is of age and has a claim to Rosby lands, so she could absolutely take control of the castle.
It also makes sense that Gyles Rosby would let her stay there, both from an emotional perspective—look what that girl is going through—and from a strategic perspective; letting the possible future lord of Riverrun be born/raised in your castle is a good idea.
But hold on a minute, isn’t she at the Twins? Well, the wiki says the Jaimie chapters say so, but I’ve read the Jaimie chapters again, and they don't. It seems plausible since we last saw her there in ASOS, but we don’t know for certain.

Okay, but would the Freys allow her to leave? What if she drinks moon tea and aborts Edmure’s child? Actually, the Frey’s are divided on whether they want the child to be born. Okay, but surely Walder Frey would want the child to be born? It seems so, but he doesn’t need to keep her at the Twins for that ; he only needs someone he can trust who knows about medicine to look after her. Who’s the maester of Rosby again? That’s right, Maester Melwys Rivers, the son of Walder Frey.

2) Olyvar is at Rosby, and the half-uncle at Darry is Jammos or Whalen Frey

Preston argues that they are the brothers of Lothar, and so they likely have a pretty cozy spot at the Twins. This is plausible; however, we really don’t know their personalities or relationships with Lothar, so it may also not be the case. Even if they are friends, it could be that shrewd calculating Lothar, and Jammos Frey, father of shrewd calculating, lineage-obsessed Big Walder, see the potential for a Frey civil war on the horizon and decide to hedge their bets by letting one of them stay at Darry.

3) The half-uncle at Darry is Wendel Frey (Future Lord Farring?)

Wendel Frey, Walder Frey's nineteenth son, is a page at Seagard according to the ASOS and AFFC appendices. But remember, the appendix only tells us where people are at the start of the book, and he could have plausibly made it to Darry by the time Jaime arrives in AFFC. (The siege of Seagard ended at the end of ASOS, so he presumably could leave.)
Now, it’s very strange that the Mallisters didn’t try to do a hostage exchange. The Freys got the castle by threatening Jason’s son (Patrek Mallister), so why didn’t Jason Mallister say "I got your son too"? You might object that Wendel is probably the son of Black Walder, not Walder Frey, but Black Walder was leading the siege, so that wouldn’t change much. The only plausible reason why Jason Mallister would not do that is if

  1. he was fond of Wendel (he did foster him after all), or
  2. he realized Wendel would probably get the Farring lands (since the Farrings are working for Stannis and thus enemies of the crown), which makes Wendel a powerful friend.

So he either never threatened, or only threatened to kill in retribution.
Why would Wendel Frey want to cosy up to the Crakehall Freys? Well, the Crakehall Freys are probably going to win the Frey civil war if there is one, so you’d want to side with them. Also, if Jason Mallister is fond of Wendel, he would advise Wendel to side with the Crakehall Freys, since he almost certainly wants the pro-Tully Vale side of the Frey civil war to win against the Lannister side.
What about the reverse? Would the Crakehall Freys let Wendel into Darry? Well, it would be smart to cosy up to the Farring Freys. The Farring Freys are likely the children of Black Walder. Edwyn thinks Black Walder will try to kill him because he’s the only one between him and the crossing after Walder Frey dies.^(2) Being friends with the children of the future Lord of the Crossing could be a good idea. Also it’s rumored that Gatehouse Ami slept with Black Walder so maybe she'd want to cozy up to them for emotional reasons, as well as strategic reasons. Furthermore, if both Edwyn and Black Walder die, there will be a Frey civil war, so any Frey allies you can gather helps the cause. Also, again, the Farrings are working for Stannis and thus enemies of the crown, so Wendel Frey will probably inherit Farring lands.
What happens once Wendel does become Lord of the Farring lands? Well, every time we have a sigil with two creatures facing each other countercharged, it signals an internal fight/division. The sigil of House Swann is two swans countercharged. The two Swanns are on opposite sides of the WOT5K. The sigil of House Connington is two griffins countercharged. The two Conningtons are about to fight each other at the battle of steel. The sigil of House Farring is two knights countercharged. It seems plausible that there will be a house Farring fight. I think Gilbert Farring will probably die at Storm's End during the battle of steel, so it will be the 13 year old Wendel vs. Godry the Giantslayer. Welp, good luck Wendel.

_________________________________________________________________________

[1] Olyvar is related to Gyles Rosby. Olyvar's mother Bethany was born a Rosby. As some of Olyvar's relatives have been fostered at their maternal family members (e.g., Merrett Frey served as page and squire to Lord Sumner Crakehall, related to his mother Amarei Crakehall; Geremy Frey sent his son and daughter by Carolei Waynwood, to Ironoaks, the seat of his wife's relatives of House Waynwood, as squire and ward), it is possible that one of Bethany's children was likewise fostered at her relative's seat.
[2] See Jaime VII, AFFC, This is because Walda and Perra would be passed over since they are likely bastards of Black Walder, and they’re women.

1 Comment
2024/03/19
05:24 UTC

50

What is your best guess?

On what role Robb would've given Jon? Let's pretend Ned and Catelyn both lived to 50 and died in their sleeps. Robb becomes Lord of Winterfell. That would make him and Jon about 30 years old.

Would Robb want to keep Jon in Winterfell? Would he make a marriage match for him? Thoughts?

55 Comments
2024/03/18
23:16 UTC

30

I think making an enemy of Tywin was the Mad King's biggest mistake . What say you ? Also, does anyone know how Aerys heard about Varys in Essos ?

The growing rift between the king and the King's Hand was also apparent in the matter of appointments. Whereas previously His Grace had always heeded his Hand's counsel, bestowing offices, honors, and inheritances as Lord Tywin recommended, after 270 AC he began to disregard the men put forward by his lordship in favor of his own choices. Many westermen found themselves dismissed from the king's service for no better cause than the suspicion that they might be "Hand's men." In their places, King Aerys appointed his own favorites...but the king's favor had become a chancy thing, his mistrust easy to awaken. Even the Hand's own kin were not exempt from royal displeasure. When Lord Tywin wished to name his brother Ser Tygett Lannister as the Red Keep's master-at-arms, King Aerys gave the post to Ser Willem Darry instead.

45 Comments
2024/03/18
17:19 UTC

59

White trees or Wight trees

After some meditation on the topic of green Weirwood trees (2024 calendar), I think that the problem with them weirwoods is that by blood magic they are stucked in eternal undeath, in an eternal autumn. We all think that their leaves are red only because they are magical or because of the blood sacrifice that corrupted them.

But trees naturally become red in autumn, preparing for winter. Then the leaves fall, the tree "dies" to be reborn in spring. So their condition signals an unnatural condition. They're stuck and unable to complete their life cycle. During Winds of Winter we re probably going to see a shedding of red leaves as the Long Night approaches and the Others bring forth the Winter (aka death). And at the end of Dreams new green leaves will sprung from them, as a new form of magic, less bloody and corrupted returns to the world. The magic of greenmen a d green hands( leaves).

23 Comments
2024/03/18
13:00 UTC

20

The sentence is a sphinx :)

One of my favourite things about Martin's writing is when he injects multiple layers of ambiguity, often leaving it to the reader to assign meaning, and my favourite example is a sentence Sam remembers Maester Aemon saying while he was delirious:

"The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler" (Samwell AFFC IV)

It's extremely fun because it both has a ring of prophecy about it (and this is indeed how Sam interprets it, later wondering if Alleras is the sphinx in question even though Aemon's never met him) (and tbf he's probably Sarella Sand, so you cant fault his instincts there!), but it also is itself as a sentence a sphinx (composed of more than one thing) and so is a riddle that is left for the reader to decide if they will try to puzzle out, because it supports two completely different interpretations. Both of which are perfectly valid!

1. The sphinx is the riddle, it is not telling the riddle. Meaning: in this version the only subject is a "sphinx" that was presumed to be telling a riddle, but it's not, instead it actually is the riddle itself.

2. The sphinx is the riddle, the riddler is not the riddle. Meaning: There's two subjects, a sphinx and a riddler, and the sphinx is "the riddle", but the riddler is not.

Which I find really enjoyable tbh! I can think of a bunch of reasons to interpret it either way, but neither one definitively makes more sense than the other, and it may not even mean anything at all! And that's what makes this such a fab little line. Regardless of what it's actually referring to (if anything), it's very skillful writing in its own right.

How does everyone else interpret this? Do you read it as option 1, or option 2, or as potentially either (or perhaps both?). Do you find that this type of thing makes your experience of reading ASOIAF different from other books? Are there any other lines/phrases that are similar that you really enjoy?

Edit: spelling Alleras/Sarella correctly and unmixing them up lol

Edit 2: Anyone spot any other interpretations of this line? Someone pointed out another one in the comments that's really fun, I wonder if there's more?

14 Comments
2024/03/17
22:25 UTC

23

If each of the nine main regions of Westeros had their own “Hand” what would they call it?

Saw a post on what each regions version of the kingsguard would be a while ago, and thought this would also be fun.

22 Comments
2024/03/17
18:45 UTC

19

The Peacemongers: Four Unrelated Scenes in Parallel

No theories or tinfoil here - I just want to draw a line between several scenes that I think are thematically connected and that I haven’t seen discussed here before.

These are all scenes that take place when our characters get together to make a decision about how to proceed when a major figure for their cause has died. As a rule, there is a woman (often but not always a mother figure, often but not always a widow figure) who argues for peace. She pins her arguments on

  1. the impossibility of retrieving what has already been lost, and/or
  2. the likelihood of incurring more losses.

The woman is always making her case to warriors, who are not inclined to peace. And each time, the warriors get their way. This happens once early on in the series, and then several times towards the end of the published material.

Catelyn Stark

The first instance of this scene is Catelyn’s speech before Robb is declared King in the North. I think the triumphant coronation is how most fans remember this chapter- but most of this scene is actually framed around Catelyn’s anxiety for her family and her attempt to halt the war. This is what she says (edited to focus on the dialogue):

Catelyn Stark: Why not a peace?

Robb Stark: My lady, they murdered my lord father, your husband.

He unsheathed his longsword…

Robb: This is the only peace I have for Lannisters.

The Greatjon bellowed his approval, and other men added their voices…Catelyn waited until they had quieted.

Catelyn: My lords, Lord Eddard was your liege, but I shared his bed and bore his children. Do you think I love him any less than you? Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more … but he is gone, and a hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone, and Daryn Hornwood, and Lord Karstark's valiant sons, and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?

Greatjon Umber: You are a woman, my lady. Women do not understand these things.

Rickard Karstark: You are the gentle sex. A man has a need for vengeance.

Catelyn: Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be. Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy … but I understand futility. We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord's freedom. Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach. I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father's seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.

The hall was very quiet when Catelyn finished speaking.

Brynden Tully: Peace. Peace is sweet, my lady … but on what terms? It is no good hammering your sword into a plowshare if you must forge it again on the morrow.

At this point, other men lay on their arguments for more war, and it seems that any shot of peace is gone. And right before the Greatjon calls for Robb’s coronation, we have this final moment from Catelyn:

Catelyn was thinking of her girls, wondering if she would ever see them again, when the Greatjon lurched to his feet.

Asha Greyjoy

Several books later, Asha Greyjoy gives us our next example of this scene, at the Kingsmoot following Balon Greyjoy’s death. A reminder: during the Kingsmoot, the claimants each present treasures to the captains, to entice their votes. Asha turns this on its head. This chapter is actually not written from Asha’s point of view, but her uncle Aeron’s. Still, she is the star of the show, until Euron shows up. Again, edited to focus on the dialogue:

Asha Greyjoy: Nuncle says he'll give you more of what my father gave you. Well, what was that? Gold and glory, some will say. Freedom, ever sweet. Aye, it's so, he gave us that . . . and widows too, as Lord Blacktyde will tell you. How many of you had your homes put to the torch when Robert came? How many had daughters raped and despoiled? Burnt towns and broken castles, my father gave you that. Defeat was what he gave you. Nuncle here will give you more. Not me.

Lucas Codd: What will you give us? Knitting?

Asha: Aye, Lucas. I'll knit us all a kingdom. We need to take a lesson from the Young Wolf, who won every battle . . . and lost all.

Victarion Greyjoy: A wolf is not a kraken. What the kraken grasps it does not lose, be it longship or leviathan.

Asha: And what have we grasped, Nuncle? The north? What is that, but leagues and leagues of leagues and leagues, far from the sound of the sea? We have taken Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, even Winterfell. What do we have to show for it?

She beckoned, and her Black Wind men pushed forward, chests of oak and iron on their shoulders.

Asha: I give you the wealth of the Stony Shore.

An avalanche of pebbles clattered forth, cascading down the steps…

Asha: I give you the riches of Deepwood.

Pinecones came pouring out, to roll and bounce down into the crowd.

Asha: And last, the gold of Winterfell.

From the third chest came yellow turnips, round and hard and big as a man's head… Asha stabbed one with her dirk.

Asha: Harmund Sharp, your son Harrag died at Winterfell, for this. You have other sons, I think. If you'd trade their lives for turnips, shout my nuncle's name!

Harmund Sharp: And if I shout your name? What then?

Asha: Peace. Land. Victory. I'll give you Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore, black earth and tall trees and stones enough for every younger son to build a hall. We'll have the northmen too . . . as friends, to stand with us against the Iron Throne. Your choice is simple. Crown me, for peace and victory. Or crown my nuncle, for more war and more defeat. What will you have, ironmen?

Again, for a moment it looks like Asha may win, but then Euron steps in and takes the victory for himself, promising the ironborn glory and dragons… and taking them off to war.

Ellaria Sand

And in A Dance with Dragons we get another clear example of this, when Doran Martell gathers his family to discuss Balon Swann’s arrival from Kings Landing. Swann has brought the supposed skull of Gregor Clegane, and Doran, Arianne, Ellaria, and the eldest Sand Snakes are consider it. The question of the appropriate response to Oberyn’s death divides the family. Our faithful narrator, Areo Hotah, observes:

Obara Sand: This is a start, I'll grant.

Ellaria Sand: A start? Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?

Nymeria Sand: It ends in blood, as it began. It ends when Casterly Rock is cracked open, so the sun can shine on the maggots and the worms within. It ends with the utter ruin of Tywin Lannister and all his works.

Ellaria: The man died at the hand of his own son. What more could you wish?

Nymeria: I could wish that he died at my hand. If he had, his dying would not have been so easy.

Tyene Sand: Ser Gregor does look lonely. He would like some company, I'm certain.

Ellaria: Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maidenhood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loree for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end? I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?

Nymeria: What would you have us do, my lady? Shall we lay down our spears and smile, and forget all the wrongs that have been done to us?

Obara: War will come, whether we wish it or not. A boy king sits the Iron Throne. Lord Stannis holds the Wall and is gathering northmen to his cause. The two queens are squabbling over Tommen like bitches with a juicy bone. The ironmen have taken the Shields and are raiding up the Mander, deep into the heart of the Reach, which means Highgarden will be preoccupied as well. Our enemies are in disarray. The time is ripe.

Ellaria: Ripe for what? To make more skulls? They will not see. I can hear no more of this.

At this point Ellaria leaves, so she doesn’t see how the conversation ends. Doran Martell does get his nieces to swear to obey them, and talks them down from immediate direct action… but we know that, unlike Ellaria, revenge is still on his mind and in his plans, plans alluded to later in this chapter. We know the Dornishmen are not going to get the “finish” Ellaria hopes for.

Galazza Galare

This last moment is a bit of a stretch, but I’ve included it because it fits well thematically. With just two chapters left in A Dance with Dragons, Barristan Selmy is approached by Galazza Galare, the spiritual leader of Meereen (and possible harpy). She has been sent to negotiate with the Yunkish on their doorstep, and reports that the Yunkish are demanding the death of the dragons and the restoration of Hizdahr to power, neither of which Barristan will agree to. She says:

Galazza Galare: The peace that we worked so hard to forge flutters like a leaf in an autumn wind. These are dire days. Death stalks our streets, riding the pale mare from thrice-cursed Astapor. Dragons haunt the skies, feasting on the flesh of children. Hundreds are taking ship, sailing for Yunkai, for Tolos, for Qarth, for any refuge that will have them. The pyramid of Hazkar has collapsed into a smoking ruin, and many of that ancient line lie dead beneath its blackened stones. The pyramids of Uhlez and Yherizan have become the lairs of monsters, their masters homeless beggars. My people have lost all hope and turned against the gods themselves, giving over their nights to drunkenness and fornication.

Barristan Selmy: And murder. The Sons of the Harpy slew thirty in the night.

Galazza: I grieve to hear this. All the more reason to free the noble Hizdahr zo Loraq, who stopped such killings once.

Barristan: Her Grace gave her hand to Hizdahr zo Loraq, made him her king and consort, restored the mortal art as he beseeched her. In return he gave her poisoned locusts.

Galazza: In return he gave her peace. Do not cast it away, ser, I beg you. Peace is the pearl beyond price. Hizdahr is of Loraq. Never would he soil his hands with poison. He is innocent.

As the chapter ends, in the midst of this conversation, Barristan hears news that the Yunkish have begun using their trebuchets against Meereen, and he thinks:

They choose war, then. So be it. Ser Barristan felt oddly relieved. War he understood.

Significance

Four times this choice between peace and war is presented, a woman argues peace, and warriors argue for war. Each time, war seems to win. We’ve only really seen the outcome of one of these decisions so far: the first one, which goes just as poorly as Catelyn could ever have feared. Time will tell how the other three go… but I don’t have great feelings about these.

I don’t want to read too much about broader themes from just these four scenes, but I think they do serve a purpose. These scenes seem to point out that war is a choice we make, and that we make it knowing what the consequences will be.

But those consequences will have to wait for The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring.

8 Comments
2024/03/17
01:25 UTC

46

Most Valyrian lords are blood of the dragon, so why did they practice incest? Was it for shits?

Are certain dragon bloodlines connected to the Targaryen bloodline? So like a person from another Valyrian house wouldn’t be able to claim them?

62 Comments
2024/03/17
00:48 UTC

205

Ned should be a bitter, angry, cold individual.

When you read through the books and think about it, Ned has a lot of reasons to be angry and depressed.

1.) He lost his entire family little over the course of a year. Rickard, Brandon, and Lyanna? All dead. And Benjen (for no logical reason) fucked off to the wall, leaving Ned to pick up the pieces alone.

2.) He was thrust into a position of authority that he was never prepared for. And developed an imposter mentality. And he has the deal with the daily stresses of ruling the largest kingdom on the continent, a kingdom that he was never meant to inherit.

3.) He was a fugitive of the crown and had to make a dangerous journey through the mountains and the sea where he almost died.

4.) He went to war where he killed people, heard people die, and watched people die. And we all know that war brings out the worst in men, and is the most traumatic experience that one can go through.

5.) He was forced to abandon the woman he loved (and possibly the mother of his son), for a woman he didn't know and who didn't love him. Even 14 years later, there's still tension between them because of who Jon's mother was and because of Brandon.

Do you know what the worst part is? Everything I mentioned, Ned endured it all when he was only 19-20 years of age. The fact that he isn't a cold, depressed, and bitter man is a testament to his strong willpower as a man.

87 Comments
2024/03/16
18:24 UTC

108

Something that bothers me about the Purple Wedding

So I was thinking- the purple wedding takes place at a time when Tywin feels in a pretty good place: his worry with Robb is over, the union to Highgarden will strengthen his family’s power in the realm, he even gets his hands on a Valyrian steel sword.

But then the purple wedding happens.

What I wonder is if the red wedding set a precedent to the purple wedding. It’s some kind of Karma imo that just like the Starks were to feel safe after taking salt and getting that guest rights security only to fall to betrayal to me mirrors how Joff (who’s wedding feast is basically ultimate guest right gesture) ends in betrayal and murder.

Joff could have been killed off in any number of ways, but it was in a very elaborate and risky public display. People can’t always agree if he was the target at all.

Olenna could have hired a FM to do it, expensive or not to have the king killed I can’t image she couldn’t have swung it. I wonder if Tywins previous ruthlessness created an impetus for such a killing as an actual logical course of action.

Penny for your thoughts.

59 Comments
2024/03/16
06:41 UTC

237

Anyone else feel like defending Argillac Durrandon today ?

His offer to Aegon was honestly pretty reasonable . Remember that he had no male heirs , so by offering Argella to him he was essentially just handing him over his kingdom with the one condition being “let’s gang up on black harren”

We know from Aegon pov the offer was shit because he didn’t need Argillac . But Argillac’s offer was perfectly reasonable and good from his point of view , he couldn’t have known Aegon wanted all seven. The whole “buffer state” argument that Gyldayn brings up is retarted. What’s the point of a buffer state if the Stormlands would become part of it when Argillac dies and Aegon inherits?

Aegon’s terms were egregiously bad . He offered Orys Baratheon , a bastard with no lands , no dragons and not even a reputation at the time , to a royal princess and heiress on top of demanding like half the stormlands. What type of alliance actively harms instead of help ? Cutting off the hands of the envoy was a mistake, but accepting Aegon’s offer would have made him look pathetic

He’s also not an idiot , Argillac defeated a dornish invasion , killed a reach king and fought successfully against Volantis when his kingdom was on the decline. My man was having back pains from carrying so hard. He was also the king that played the smartest against the dragons. He learned from Harren that you can’t hide and he learned from the defeat of his own vassals how devastating they were in the air. Attacking in the storm was the best possible solution since it grounded Meraxes. There was a genuine chance he could have killed Rhaenys and Orys right there. a grounded dragon can be killed. Argillac adapted.

He was also a complete motherfucking baddass his death description is INSANE this 60 year old MF was holding out in a six Vs one and then proceeded to almost clap Orys Baratheon’s cheeks. Reminder , he is 60 Orys is in his 20’s

Why does he get called arrogant but not all the other kings who resisted Aegon with much less effect ? Who did not try to learn from the mistakes of others ? Who actually didn’t know dragons were OP and tried to get them on their side ?

I rarely buy into the maesters bias thing. But Argillac genuinely got slandered. Was he perfect ? No . He had pride like every other king. But he was certainly not a moron.

44 Comments
2024/03/15
01:09 UTC

20

Who has the Catspaw's dagger?

The Valyrian steel one that almost killed Bran, where'd it go? Did Baelish keep it?

12 Comments
2024/03/13
19:00 UTC

57

What to learn from the repetition of "dreamt an old dream"

In the black cells, Ned "dreamt an old dream" —a feverish vision of a memory he rarely engages with consciously, which haunts him, and which provides a good deal of context for R+L=J.

Notably, though, this phrase "dreamt an old dream" appears only three times in the series: once during Ned's dream, once in ADWD during Varamyr's prologue, and once in AFFC, in Cersei VIII.

It's not just this one phrase that connects these moments. Each is given its own line in the text, and together, notice how many similarities there are with these moments:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

AGOT Eddard X

-

She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death.

AFFC Cersei VIII

-

He dreamt an old dream of a hovel by the sea, three dogs whimpering, a woman's tears.

ADWD Prologue

Each of these has a number of shared elements: three figures, a tragic location, a woman. Each is associated with a memory that haunts that POV characters, often manifesting as a particular phrase that we've heard fragments of earlier.

I think that there's an opportunity to find more meaning through comparing all three of these instances.

Comparing Ned's ToJ dream to Varamyr's dream, the "woman's" tears clearly aligns with "Lyanna in her bed of blood," and it re-characterizes the Kingsguard as "whimpering dogs."

Comparing the ToJ dream to Cersei's, the "knights in white cloaks" become instead "girls in brown cloaks," and the "tower long fallen" becomes a "tent that smelled of death."

Here is a complete comparison:

Three knights in white cloaks | three girls in brown cloaks | three dogs whimpering

A tower long fallen | a tent that smelled of death | a hovel by the sea

Lyanna in her bed of blood | a wattled crone | a woman's tears

There's also the context to consider, which isn't necessarily clear from these quotes alone.

I'm sure there's much more to be said about these ideas, and I've heard some good thoughts elsewhere but want to spark discussion here.

What meaning do you think there is to be gotten by comparing these three?

19 Comments
2024/03/13
16:31 UTC

17

Long Nights and endless Days

Reading Jack's Vance Big Planet I had an idea.

We know that Planetos is big and mostly undiscovered. We also know that Martin claims that the irregularity of the seasons is due to "magic" and not to a scientific explanation. But we also known that the climatic gradient is somewhat coerent. All known north territories are colder, from westerns to essos. And all south territories are hotter. That means the known planetos is a small fraction of the planet. Half a hemisphere if even that. A quarter of a planet. And we also know that west of westeros and est of essos lays a hell of an ocean (and probably even an americos land).

We also know that a "long night" legend is common in westeros and essos. That lead us to belive that the long night is a planetary thing. But that is nonsense. To immagine that an entire planet for some reason fall in complete darkness we need to assume that some magic blocked the sun, or removed the planet from his position, or turn off the star. A type of magic too huge for a setting like ASOIAF.

However knowing all that, and knowing that W+E are only a quarter of a planet, we can speculate that the Long Night was a regional event. An huge event, but limited to a portion(half) of a planet. Only one "face". what can create a long night then? Well what creates a normal night? The revolution of planetos.

I think that planetos is so big that what constitutes night on Winterfell constitutes Night even Quarth or Asshai . And if that is true, the long night is something much easier than some strange magic. The long night is simply a PROLONGED night with Planetos slowed in a fixed Position. Prolonged by telekinetic means, like the hammer of the waters, the wights moving, or countless other GRR Martin "magic" expressions.

We also know that duri g the Long Night " the snows fall a HUNDRED FEET DEEP and the ice wind comes howling out of the north."

The wall itself is hundreds feet High. Why pile that high?. To match the rising ice floor.

The long night wasn't only a matter of darkness. It was a matter of coldness and icyness . And to snow hundreds of feet there's a need for water. To have that much water there's a need for evaporation. a volcanic eruption cannot heat that much water. Meanwhile in a fixed planet the exposed face literally boils away while the hidden face freezes.

A power to slow or block a planet movement also would explain the irregular season (slowing or altering the planet movement around a star) and the hammer of the waters (a movement of tectonic plates)

Long Nights for some. Endless days for others.

9 Comments
2024/03/13
12:25 UTC

10

Daeron the first

What do we think of him both as a character and his ending? What do you think would have been different if he actually had children and lived

13 Comments
2024/03/13
03:58 UTC

60

The Conquerors and fertility

The popular consensus among the fandom is that Aegon I Targaryen suffered from fertility issues (I do believe this), with some even going as far as to theorise that Aenys and Maegor are not his children, but are bastards. Now, I don’t believe in the secret bastard theory mainly because Aegon isn’t a cuck/ Rhaenys wouldn’t lie to him. But it’s always struck me that no one really poses the idea that it was Visenya and Rhaenys who suffered from the fertility issues. Let’s look at the facts:

• Aegon I was said to spend ‘ten nights with Rhaenys for every one with Visenya’ and sure this can be posited as Aegon’s infertility, but Rhaenys should have as much culpability, given that she gave birth at the (Westeros-only) old age of 32

• Aegon is one of the few possible Targaryens that can be ancestors to the likes of Ulf White, Hugh Hammer and Nettles.

• Aenys Targaryen, who I believe is Aegon and Rhaenys’s son, is known to have 6 children with his wife Alyssa Velaryon, thereby showing that Aegon (and Rhaenys) were not totally infertile.

• Visenya was barren until the age of 40, she lived on Dragonstone and didn’t often sleep with Aegon. Sure those are good reasons for their lack of children, but I think it is notable that Maegor, her only child, failed to conceive any children in a 20 year marriage with Ceryse Hightower and all his children were stillborn monsters.

• Visenya stating that she is carrying Aegon’s son is also to me indicative of her own fertility and resorting to magic and the occult in order to conceive a child.

Overall, whilst I believe that Aegon had fertility issues, too many fans point to him alone being infertile in order to claim Aenys is a bastard, when in reality Visenya and Rhaenys both have a lot of culpability in the lack of children during that generation.

52 Comments
2024/03/12
17:26 UTC

30

WHAT type of creatures’ faces do Weirwood faces look like?

Forgive me, but I’m drawing the heart tree at Winterfell and just came to a realization about the faces, and briefly wondered “ARE THEY CARVING OTHERS INTO THE TREES??” before thinking and pondering more deeply.

There are a handful that get described (Winterfell, Riverrun, Harrenhall, Whitetree, not-Whitetree, Storm’s End, etc.) and they are all described according to apparent mood or emotional impression and some also by length/width

None of the human characters ever remark upon anything else, as in the faces specifically being non-human faces

Most of these Weirwood trees are specifically stated to be thousands of years old; Winterfell’s is said to be older than Bran the Builder and Winterfell itself.

The original weirwoods were carved by CotF. CotF hadn’t seen men until they first saw the First Men, who were chopping trees, went to war, and then converted to the CotF’s practice of carving trees before the CotF were eradictated.

It holds then that CotF and original First Men weirwoods would likely not have human faces; or, they did and no one ever noticed the same way that I never noticed, but wouldn’t someone in ten thousand years? Children are specifically said to look unlike humans (particularly eyes and ears). Modern weirwoods probably look like whatever humans decide they will +/- their tree carving skills. But original weirwoods, in particular those that persist in ancient castles from millennia ago and especially in the North where they wouldn’t have been cut down by Andals?

CotF were said to carve the trees on the Isle of Faces, too.

We have CotF, we have men, we have Giants, and we have Others. Now I feel silly for assuming they all looked like Men.

She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore

As long as you have vision I assume you are familiar with human faces

GIANTS:

They have squashed-in faces with square teeth, and tiny eyes amidst folds of horny flesh.

OTHERS:

Specifically faceless

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them . . . four . . . five . . .

all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood.

CHILDREN OF THE FOREST:

a scrawny thing

her skin dappled like a doe’s beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer—large and liquid, gold and green, slitted like a cat’s eyes. No one has eyes like that.

The giants called us woh dak nag gran, the squirrel people, because we were small

Leaf and her people were far from childlike. Little wise men of the forest would have been closer. They were small compared to men, as a wolf is smaller than a direwolf. That does not mean it is a pup. They had nut-brown skin, dappled like a deer’s with paler spots, and large ears that could hear things that no man could hear. Their eyes were big too,

Besides “wild hair and small, from a distance could be mistaken for Arya, but up close not young” we don’t really get much about the Children. In fact, they don’t pull any faces or expressions and they aren’t really described by Bran despite being his first non-human sentient beings. Besides the eyes and skin and ears he doesn’t say much, doesn’t mention if they show age or vary or grow facial hair or have teeth or anything.

#Heart Tree Faces

A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle's granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea.

Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east

There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce.

Arya stared at the face carved into its trunk. It was a terrible face, its mouth twisted, its eyes flaring and full of hate. Is that what a god looked like? Could gods be hurt, the same as people?

At Melisandre's urging, he had dragged the Seven from their sept at Dragonstone and burned them before the castle gates, and later he had burned the godswood at Storm's End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face.

Maybe he was remembering it wrong. The face carved into the bone pale trunk was long and sad; red tears of dried sap leaked from its eyes.

The Black Gate, Sam had called it, but it wasn't black at all.
It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that.

the heart tree had grown so huge and tangled that it had choked out all the oaks and elms and birch and sent its thick, pale limbs crashing through the walls and windows that looked down on it. Its roots were as thick around as a man's waist, its trunk so wide that the face carved into it looked fat and angry

25 Comments
2024/03/12
04:03 UTC

4

Why is Snow an evil name?

Was it ever explained why the free folk consider Snow an evil name?

29 Comments
2024/03/12
03:33 UTC

93

Does anyone else think the marriage pact is fake ?

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII "May we know what it says, Your Grace?" asked Ser Barristan. "It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen." The old knight read the pact slowly. "If Robert had known of this, he would have smashed Sunspear as he once smashed Pyke, and claimed the heads of Prince Doran and the Red Viper … and like as not, the head of this Dornish princess too."

78 Comments
2024/03/11
17:06 UTC

64

What did Jon Arryn promise to placate Doran ?

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VI

"Is it true he tried to raise Dorne for Viserys?" "No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn's bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it." "Well, he's here now, with half the nobility of Dorne in his tail, and he grows more impatient every day," said Tyrion. "Perhaps I should show him the brothels of King's Landing, that might distract him. A tool for every task, isn't that how it works? My tool is yours, Father. Never let it be said that House Lannister blew its trumpets and I did not respond."

20 Comments
2024/03/11
16:56 UTC

31

Why wasn't poison an option?

Why is it that at no point during the Mad King's reign, did no one ever try to poison him? Seriously, how did he avoid getting "Joffrey'd"? I can understand why no one had to balls to send an assassin to finish him off (Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Gerold Hightower ect) but what I don't understand is how no one ever thought to slip something in food or drink.

29 Comments
2024/03/10
23:52 UTC

21

I keep seeing the take that the hatching of Dany's dragons revived what had been "dead" magic

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hadn't magic just been subdued, not killed? Mirri Maz Duur was able to perform a very real bloodmagic rite, Melisandre had been practicing red priestess magic presumably for years before pursuing Stannis in Westeros, the House of the Undying warlocks practiced magic (to a lesser degree) before Dany's arrival in Qarth, and there are Asshai'i magic practitioners of all kinds.

Quaithe, a shadowbinder herself, tells Dany that the firemage she sees in Qarth could in fact perform magic before, and that it was strengthened (not brought into existence) by the hatching of her dragons.

"And now his powers grow, Khaleesi. And you are the cause of it."

-ACOK, Ch40

Wildfire also has some magical quality to it. The alchemists say it's become more "potent" in recent times, but the implication of that seems to be that some remnant of magic was still alive before.

Even skinchanging is a form of magic, and there's plenty of that going on beyond the Wall long before the eggs hatch. Bran sees visions of dragons in the Shadowlands, and most if not all of his visions are either of the present or future.

I know Asshai and Essos in general are far removed from Westeros, geographically and culturally, but whenever I see the take that "magic was dead before Daenerys hatched the eggs," it's usually said in the context of the whole world, not just Westeros.

Why is this such a common take? Is there something I'm missing? That might read sarcastically but it's a genuine question, since it's relatively easy to forget some details.

26 Comments
2024/03/10
21:05 UTC

927

Stannis is the best subversion that GRRM has ever pulled off

Stannis seems like the evil uncle trope at first glance

1-lives on the evil dreary island isolated from everyone else

2-Has a witch that burns people alive

3-Davos is the bumbling affable villain sidekick.

4-Surrounded by religious fanatics

5-humorless harsh and stern

6-attempts to “usurp” the “true” heir (Joffrey)

Now let’s compare this to roberts court . Beautiful queen , popular warrior king , his great knight (Jaime) and “his” three beautiful children that can put on the charm (Joffrey actually can be charming when he wants to)

Yet the warrior king is actually a drunken whoremonger , the queen is a psychopath, Jaime throws children off towers and Joffrey is illegitimate

In contrast , Stannis actually is the rightful heir by the Baratheon line. The witch is actually a witch. The onion knight actually is just an uncomfortable guy that is looked down upon by society. Stannis is seen as cold and harsh and stern because he is against the corruption of KL and is just not fun.

Despite being surrounded by religious fanatics, Stannis is not one himself and is also the only one of the kings to recognize that the others are the actual threat and that he “needs to save the realm before he can be king”

Stannis is subversion done right , not just for the sake of it .

All hail STANNIS THE MANNIS

173 Comments
2024/03/10
17:45 UTC

41

Were Dany's eggs definitely real petrified eggs before she got them?

Is there any indication in the books that they can be traced back to a specific dragon that actually laid them? Or were they possibly just fake eggs carved out of stone that got turned into real ones (and then hatched) by Dany's ritual. It's magic either way, so both are very possible. And the second option has really fun implications for the rest of the story - if magic and sacrifice (and a bit of luck) can do that to some random stones, what else might it be able to do...

Plus giving Dany worthless fancy rocks as a wedding gift just seems like a very Illyrio thing to do, seeing as he's a bit of a chancer (to put it mildly) and never really seemed to otherwise be that invested in Daenerys or Viserys. It would be a flattering gift guaranteed to keep her on his side, and make him seem generous and powerful, but that costs him basically nothing. If he didn't have any real dragon eggs lying around then he'd be a FOOL not to give her some fake ones tbh. Cos what's the worst that could happen, nobody's gonna test them - they're priceless!

EDIT: Also we do know Illyrio has an extremely skilled stone carver on hand because of that statue lol. How suspicious.

EDIT 2: More thoughts

  • The first time we see Illyrio again in ADWD he's literally holding a mallet and chisel to take Tyrion out of the cask he arrived in (it's mentioned twice) and surely he has "servants" who could do that, and he's not hiding Tyrion from them ("servants" is in quotes because we know theyre really slaves, because Illyrio is all about illusions)
  • When Dany first sees the eggs at her wedding (where she is distracted and terrified) she immediately expects them to be made of "some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass" and even after feeling their weight she still asks "what are they?" And only after hearing Illyrio say they're "Dragon eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty" does she accept them. Even though she's obviously seen an egg of some kind before, she knows she's a Targaryan, and she specifically knows dragon eggs do exist. She's initially unconvinced by them.
  • If they're supposed to be the eggs from F+B why does Illyrio explain they're from the Shadow Lands and that it took "eons" to turn them to stone instead of just saying he bought them from the Sealord of Braavos
  • Speaking of (and looping back to Dany being unconvinced by the eggs at first) it's funny that those eggs ended up with the Sealord of Braavos when that's the guy Syrio Forel got hired by based on his ability to see the truth, and not be fooled by a trick
  • A story he tells Arya later (and that becomes an enormous part of her arc) but funnily enough Arya receives a gift too just a few pages before Dany is given the eggs: a sword. That she names needle, which is a funny name because it's not one. If Danys eggs weren't really eggs (at that point) then these back-to-back gift-receiving scenes are written to inform one another - Dany fails the test that Arya has explained to her later.
  • Also, if we're talking about symbolism too, and acknowledging Martin's influences, let's not ignore that Illyrio is a powerful man heavily associated with the colour yellow, and the first story in The King In Yellow (which itself influenced the cthulu mythos) features someone who reads the eponymous play-within-a-play and experiences delusions that they are destined to rule, and that they have a "diadem" that rests on velvet (same as in the egg crate) in a safe for that day, that actually turns out to be just a 50¢ brass and paste crown in a biscuit tin. Which would be a great story to draw on for Danys arc if Illyrio is full of crap and only lucked out that she happened to be able to wake dragons from stone for entirely different reasons.

MAIN POINT The reason I think this is an actual possibility is because of two things it would do in the story:

  • While not making any difference whatsoever in practical ways (her dragons are still dragons lol), it would severely throw Dany for a loop, undermining her certainty she should rule - aka her defining trait. it would provide emotional conflict in her most fundamental beliefs
  • Separately, it would also open the floor for other magic to happen, and revealing it could provide a kind of narrative "case study" that explains (hopefully not in too much detail) how magic can work sometimes. For instance it may be that under certain circumstances it's possible to contain some of the dispersed consciousness that can exist in all inanimate objects (that we learn about with Varamyrs death) in a specific thing, i.e. a fake carved marble dragon egg. Or an ice sculpture of some kind. If you see what I mean.

Edit 3: ok gang it is not normal behaviour to be sending me private messages demanding to know why I'm "determined to discredit well established theories" lmao, please calm down. if you think I'm full of shit then u can simply exit the post and get on with your life, it's easy peasy lol

124 Comments
2024/03/10
17:31 UTC

50

What if Ned was KITN?

What if Ned Stark was declared the king in the North during Robert's Rebellion just before Robert was declared king of the Iron Throne?

So in this scenario, just after the Battle of the Bells, the rebels have regrouped and are all celebrating their victory. In the thick of the moment, Greatjon stands up and declares that Ned should be the KITN since they're rebelling against the crown. Pretty soon, all of the Northmen there are shouting THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!!!!!! Of course, this doesn't change Robert being chosen to be the new king of the 6 southern kingdoms. Long story short, the battle of the Trident still happens, but the morale of the rebels is boosted even more with two kings. The sack of King's Landing and everything else still happens to, so nothing is changed there.

How does this affect the overall story? With Ned ruling as KITN, Robert offering him handship would make no sense. You can't ask a king to be another king's hand. It would be seen as a slight. Robert could still invite him to come down south and visit the capital for a while, but that's a given. But for the sake of argument, let's say that Ned doesn't go south, Robert still dies, and Stannis and Renly stake their claims to the throne. With the North being ruled as its own separate kingdom, they have zero reason to get involved with the succession of the South. So while the war rages on down south, up North, Ned and his family are just sitting up in Winterfell chilling. Unless the Riverlands gets attacked, but still.

28 Comments
2024/03/10
02:42 UTC

13

A timeline against a kingdom

Hi everyone!

The other day I was thinking about the messy timeline we are dealing with around Jon’s story and I thought it would be a good topic to explore and try to clarify, though true be told, I’m more confused now.

Jon’s parentage is a very complex matter that we’ve been discussing for years, particularly regarding his importance in the story. However, the timeline around his birth is a mess, and that’s what I want to discuss today. Since I had a lot of free time, I took the liberty to illustrate the mess so you can better understand my point.

The age problem.

George told in this SSM that Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys and that she was born almost precisely 9 months after Rhaegar died in the Trident.

That means we have a 17-18 months timeline to consider that puts Jon’s birth at 8-9 months into the war, and Rhaegar as the main suspect of being his dad since he was definetely with Lyanna at that point.

This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack of King’s Landing. As we know, the war lasts “close” to a year, suggesting a 10-11 months period; the war ends with the last loyalists surrendering in Storm’s End, and we can safely place that event 2 months after the Sack, so the timeline works fine so far.

After that, Ned goes to the Tower of Joy where he finds the guards and Lyanna dying in her “bed of blood”.

Jon’s conception then, seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war, and this is important to identify his parents, because we know were most suspects were during those dates.

Here’s the first problem, this timeline contradicts Ned’s version that Jon is younger than Robb, and worse, it also contradicts his memory of finding Lyanna dying from complications after giving birth.

You can see what I mean in this timeline.

Ned gets to the Tower, being very optimistic, at least two months after Jon was born, and while that’s problematic it’s not nearly as troublesome as the fact that Robb was born around four to five months after the Battle of the Trident, making Jon way older than him for people to accept that he’s younger than Robb as Ned claims.

Robb was conceived several months into the war (around four to five months), so either GRRM was wrong, he changed the timeline at some point, or he clarified in the SSM a piece of information that isn’t clear in the books because it clearly contradicts Ned’s version.

Sticking to the two events mentioned in the SSM means that Jon was conceived up to five months before Robb, so something is very wrong.

Why would it matter if he’s younger or older?

Well, because Rhaegar leaves the Tower around one month after Ned marries, and we need to rule out someone else fathering Jon, and that’s really hard to do if Jon, like Ned says, is younger than Robb.

See the problem?

Since Jon looks like a Stark and found a direwolf, we can be sure that he’s at least half a Stark. We can rule out Brandon because he died way too early in the story to be his father; Benjen apparently never left Winterfell, and of course being Benjen’s wouldn’t explain why Ned would call him his son, so that should rule him out too.

That only leaves Ned and Lyanna as the Stark parent, but that still doesn’t explain the huge age gap we are facing here.

There’s a second thing that seems to be wrong in the timeline that George stablished: Lyanna’s bed of blood.

If the timeline is correct and Jon was born around the time that Rhaegar died, it would mean that it took Ned less than a month to go from the Trident to King’s Landing and then to the Tower of Joy via Storm’s End to find Lyanna “in her bed of blood”, which is clearly very hard to accept.

We know he left the Trident in a hurry since he was going after the remnants of the royal army, he barely stayed in King’s Landing given he was angry when he learned how Rheagar’s family was brutally murdered, but he likely stayed there for at least a few days, since Robert was wounded in the Trident, and it was Robert’s reaction that made Ned leave in anger.

Let’s assume that it only took a week or so for Robert to catch up with Ned. We’ll also assume that the surrender in Storm’s End didn’t take long, and that Ned left immediately, knowing exactly where he was going.

It’s never established how he knew about the Tower of Joy, or if its existence and location were common knowledge, but we know that one of his companions was Ethan Glover, who also joined Brandon on his trip to KL, so we can assume that he knew where to go, or that someone in KL told Ned, after all, Hightower knew where he was heading when he went looking for Rhaegar after the Battle of the Bells, so it seems people there knew the location.

While calculating distances and travel speed is hard, this calculator estimates that going from King’s Landing to the Tower of Joy would take 42 days at a slow pace, but that’s for a direct trip, like the one that Hightower and Rhaegar did in each direction.

If the slow pace takes 42 days, and for the sake of simplicity we assume that the fast pace is twice as fast, it would take half the time (21 days) to go over that distance. Let’s assume that it took the old Gerold 30 days to get to the Tower and only 25 to Rhagar to get to KL since he was younger.

The 42 days calculation however can’t be applied to Ned, since it doesn’t contemplate the fact that he stayed in King’s Landing for a few days, then went to Storm’s End (with an army), which is of course a big detour to finally get to the Tower in the hardest way possible, through the mountains.

So being really generous, let’s say that it took him only 60 days to do all that traveling, though it seems that 3 months is more likely.

That means he got there around 2-3 months after the Sack, which makes really hard to explain how Lyanna endured that long or how Jon can be younger than Robb since he was born around 5 months after the Sack.

You can see what I mean in this timeline.

There’s no way that Ned could have found Lyanna dying after giving birth if we stick to that timeline.

In the best possible scenario, Jon was born one month after Rhaegar died in the Trident, but it’s also possible that he was born roughly at the same time. There’s absolutely no way that Ned could have gone all that way in only one month to find Lyanna dying. Is just not possible.

If Ned’s version that Jon is younger than Robb was accepted in Winterfell, it means that, at the very least, there was no way of clearly telling which baby was older, something that is highly unlikely at that age if Jon is, as the timeline suggest three to five months older than Robb.

It’s really easy to spot the difference between a six-month-old baby and a nine-month-old one, not to mention if the difference is even greater than that.

Either the timeline is wrong or we have all the facts wrong.

The only way for Jon to be older than Robb and people in Winterfell accepting that is because Ned said so. I mean, I could believe people just accepting what Ned told them, but why would he lie about Jon’s age?

Why would his wife accept he cheated if the boy he brought from the war was clearly older than her own child?

So, let’s consider a more reasonable timeline assuming that either George was confused or he changed his own timeline for some reason.

Ned’s Timeline

In ADwD, we learn that the Lord of Sisterton believes that Jon’s mother was the fisherman’s daughter that took Ned from the Vale to his island on their way to White Harbor when Ned was trying to get to Winterfell.

He also seems to believe that it was that woman who named the baby Jon to honor Lord Arryn, implying she was from the Vale.

If we stick to the original timeline, the man actually has a point, Ned spent at least a month with that woman trying to get north when Jon was allegedly conceived if he’s 9 months older than Dany as George told. That’s just not possible as we saw.

We should believe that Ned fathered a bastard named “Jon Snow” who’s different, and older, than our bastard, which is pointless, so let’s stick with Lyanna’s child and Ned's known timeline.

The most optimistic calculation for Ned’s travel time from the Eyrie to White Harbor, and from Winterfell to Riverrun is roughly two months, but that’s a very optimistic calculation.

We should consider how messy it was getting from the Vale to White Harbor in the first place, the time it took him to go from White Harbor to Winterfell, and the fact that he went south leading an army, so he couldn’t move that fast.

All that traveling explains why Robb was conceived several months into the war.

If you also consider that it takes around 25-30 days to get form the Tower of Joy to KL traveling very fast and that Jon is younger than Robb, then Rhaegar being the father isn’t that clear anymore.

How troublesome is that?

Check this timeline to see what I mean.

We need to consider 50-60 days between the time that Gerold leaves KL after the Battle of the Bells, to the moment that Rhaegar arrives to take command of the royal army and march to the Trident.

That happens on the 8th month into the war, so Gerold had to leave between the fourth and fifth month, 15 to 20 days after Ned married, and right after the battle, giving Rhaegar enough time to get to KL and leave almost immediately to the Trident to fight the battle.

Either Jon was born around the Battle of the Trident as George claims, meaning he’s around 5 months older than Robb and people in Winterfell just accepted that for some reason, or he’s younger than Robb like Ned claims and Rhaegar might not be his father because the prince could have been already traveling south when Jon was conceived.

That’s a huge problem, right?

For Ned’s timeline to work with Lyanna dying in “her bed of blood”, while also accepting that Jon is younger than Robb, she had to die around two months after the siege ended. That gave Ned enough time to get from Storm’s End to the tower across the mountains during winter.

If Robb was conceived, being really optimistic, just 4 months into the war, that would mean he was born 13 months after the war started, 5 months after Rhaegar died in the Trident.

Let’s assume that Jon was born roughly at the same time as Robb but being premature which caused the complications that led to Lyanna’s death while also explaining why people believed Jon to be younger than Robb even when they are almost the same age.

Check this timeline to see what I mean.

Let’s call Ned’s wedding time 0 and assume Robb was born exactly 9 months later. That gives the prince 45 days between Ned’s marriage and Gerold’s arrival to the Tower to conceive Jon, otherwise, there’s no way for Lyanna to die around the time that Ned gets to the Tower.

The thing is that Catelyn not only accepted that Jon is younger than her son (explaining why she believed Ned cheated), but she believed Ashara to be Jon’s mother, so unless she also assumed Ashara was somewhere between Stoney Sept (where the Battle of the Bells was fought) and the Trident , Jon can’t be just one month younger than Robb.

In the a map of the Battles location ( Check the map ), numbers 3 and 4 are the Battle of the Bells (the first battle that Ned fought) and the Trident respectively. Number 5 and 6 are King’s Landing and Storm’s End. So, you can understand my point that Cat was 1-2 month pregnant between the first two battles.

I mean, Cat was a smart woman, she had to consider the when and where the cheating had happened, and the likeliest explanation for the “cheating” that matched Jon’s age and Ned’s location during the war is somewhere around KL, meaning long after Rhaegar left the Tower.

That explains why she believed Ashara to be the mother, she could have reasonably been around KL when Rhaegar died, since that’s where Elia was.

There’s a second instance that points to that date, meaning that Jon is at least two months younger than Robb, but likely 3 months younger, Robert never knew who was the bastard’s alleged mother, because the alleged cheating happened when Ned was alone, and Ned was apart from Robert after Rhagear died on the eight month, before that, Ned married, went to Stoney Sept and head back to the Trident with Robert.

That indicates that Jon is at least two months younger than Robb, or he looked to be that younger, maybe because he was really small when he was born, likely because he was born before the due time.

If he was born after only 7 months of pregnancy, that could explain it, but the point remains that Rhaegar might not have been in the Tower when he was conceived.

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?

Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

Eddard II – AGoT

We eventually learn that not only Ned names her, but Wylla claims to be the bastard’s mother. When Arya meets Edric Dayne, Arthur’s nephew by his older brother and Lord of Starfall, the boy tells her about Wylla being Jon’s mother:

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?

Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.” Arya VIII- A Storm of Swords.

Arya VIII – ASoS

Why would this woman claim to be Jon’s mother? If she’s lying to protect Ned’s lie, why are the Daynes involved? Ned killed Arthur and apparently caused Ashara’s suicide, why would Lord Dayne cover up his lie, and why would Wylla?

The most logical explanation is that they’re lying to protect Jon since Dayne is a loyalist and the woman agreed to lie for whatever reasons, yet, we should really consider Ned’s timeline here, because again, why would he lie about Jon’s age and why would his wife accept his version if the kid was evidently older than Robb?

Likely because the kid isn’t older and Ned has no good reason to lie about that.

Lyanna’s location at all times is well established in the story; she was with Rhaegar, Dayne, and likely Whent, since none of them are seen in any battle during the war, as Ned’s fever dream confirms. But if we trust in Ned’s word and his timeline, then we have to also accept the possibility of Dayne, Whent, or Hightower being Jon’s dad.

How screwed up is that?

14 Comments
2024/03/09
18:57 UTC

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