I don't know how many of you also frequent r/buffy but I've been popping in and out for about 3 years now and the Angel hate at times gets very, very tiresome. Some fans will ignore the plain text of the show that Angel and Angelus are different people and say Angel is no true hero because "he committed atrocities for 200 years."

I kinda blame the writing around Spike because William, Soulless Spike, and Ensouled Spike having no real difference in personality makes people think a soul is some sort of optional addon as opposed to being who you really are. William killed no one. Liam killed no one. Their souls, who they are, went off somewhere while a demon ran around in their body causing mayhem.

Angel is better about this because we can see the drastic differences between Liam, Angelus, and Angel.

Liam was...just kind of a guy. The result of his father's lifetime of abuse, he acted out like many people would. Drinking, whoring, brawling. "If I'm such a disappointment, I'll BE a disappointment." There's nothing to indicate any really remarkable qualities like intelligence.

Then we get to Angelus. Angelus the cerebral manipulator. The charismatic showman. The pinnacle of evil who, according to Angel, only ever killed for the pleasure of killing. He was an artist of cruelty.

And finally, we have Angel. Loner. A man who prefers to spend time in the dark. Even when he has friends and loved ones, I think I'd still characterize him as an introvert. Hè's certainly not a spotlight hog like Angelus. If Angelus is the epitome of selfishness, Angel is the opposite. He will gladly give up his happiness for others. From a pinnacle of evil to a (literal) Champion of Good.

EDIT:

I have no idea why this keeps getting flagged for content warnings....

Did Bangel fans hate the ship? or did they move on to Spuffy? Cordelia and Angel is considered one of the greatest Buffyverse pairings with the chemistry they had as best friends and co-workers to potential partners.

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Just re-watched season 5 episode 18 and suddenly wondered…when everyone’s memory came flooding back, wouldn’t the memories of Connor’s created family and friends also return? Thus enlightening them that Connor did not grow up with them. Since Connor and Angel’s friends now remembered reality, wouldn’t everyone whose memories were altered be the same? I never thought about this the first time I watched it so wanted to see if there was something that I missed!

Hi all,

Fairly new fan of both Buffy and Angel here (only recently finished both) and I just want to say...

Both are probably among my top 5 shows of all time now (Doctor Who remains at the top spot).

However, when watching Angel, I saw so many people going on about how bad Season 4 is and how much of a drop off in quality it is, and so I feared the worst.

However, when I actually got to it, I was surprised to find it was honestly so fun, especially compared to Season 3 (which I see as easily the worst Buffyverse season).

There is the obvious flaw with Cordelia, but that wasn't enough to completely flip my opinion on the whole season (especially considering that she was possessed).

So I want to lay out why I think this season deserves way more respect (and why it somewhat deserves its lower opinion in this sub and the Buffy one).

PROS:

- Really good character development: Season 3 left me unsatisfied for a number of reasons, this being one of them, too many characters acting OOC at random points in the season. So when I got to Season 4 I was pleasantly surprised that there was some really good character moments throughout.

1. FRED: In season 3 Fred wasn't really a character imo, she functioned more as a plot device for both Wes and Fred. Whereas in season 4, she gets agency, she doesn't bow down to Gunn or Wes (as she should), and in the Jasmine arc, she is willing to fight the good fight, even though she is alone.

2. WESLEY AND LILAH: These two were always written well, so no surprise there but the tension, and emotion you feel from these two is unrivaled, especially as it seems that Lilah likely cares for Wesley more than he does for her (imo).

3. ANGEL: Angel is normally pretty well written too, but I really like his interactions with Connor (even if Connor himself is one of the bad aspects of the season). I also love the Angelus arc, and find it really interesting to see both of them interact. His arc with Connor is great to watch.

4. FAITH: In 3 episodes she shows off her growth from S1, and really solidifies herself as one of the best non-main characters on either show.

5. GWEN: Despite only appearing 3 times in this season only, she really adds to it, with an interesting backstory and great interactions with the characters (I love her and Gunn). I'd love to have seen more of her.

6. LORNE: Lorne doesn't experience much character growth but he is a joy to watch.

- Really good arcs: Granted I'm not the biggest fan of the Jasmine arc (more on that later), but the Beast arc is amazing. I love the apocalyptic feel of this part of the season and every episode the Beast is in is better because of it. It adds a level of stakes to the show not seen since Darla. I also love the Angelus arc as previously mentioned and love the interactions between the two. For all intents and purposes the season up until Jasmine enters is really tight plot wise.

- Really good episodes: I'm aware most episodes contribute to the overarching plots, but these episodes are really good. The opener is really good, Ground State, The House Always Wins, Spin the Bottle, Honestly anything from 8-15, and the finale, and those are only the HIGHLIGHTS (for me ofc). Even the weaker episodes (with some exceptions) really do add to the season and make it feel so big.

-Jasmine: I know I said I wasn't the fondest of this arc, but the idea behind it is great, and it does get off to a great start. Though I wish more time was devoted to it.

CONS:

- Cordelia: What else was it going to be, I'd argue Cordelia (or rather possessed Cordelia) is what singlehandedly sours peoples opinions on this season. And granted it isn't great. I do love the idea of a possessed Cordelia, but the whole Cordy/Connor thing is..YUCK. Way to ruin one of the cutest scenes of season 3 (when her, Angel and baby Connor are lying on the bed). I also wish they had revealed to us that she was possessed earlier. I don't think it is 100% a trainwreck, but my god it gets close with Cordy/Connor. I also wish she did get to return at the end of the season as herself, it would've lessened the blow a little of the worst aspects of this season.

- Connor: I don't hate Connor, I liked his inclusion at the end of S3, and I did love the scene between him and Angel in Home, but man, it is so infuriating to see him repeat the same flaws over and over again. I know he had a fucked childhood, but seriously, there's no development here. Granted it does make his episodes in S5 that much better, but did it really have to make this season suffer.

- Gunn: I don't like how he is reduced to 'the muscle'. Granted this began in S3 but I hate how he needs to have his brain altered in S5 to become useful to the team. He was resourceful when we met him, with connections, street-smarts and an ability to invent. Why did they get rid of all that?

- Jasmine: As I said, I loved the idea behind her, but there was way too little time dedicated to her. Ignoring her appearance at the end of 4x17, she is in 4 episodes this whole season. Also, all these connections to seasons 1-4 feel really forced and don't work together. Why did she need the Beast, for how long has she influenced the events, what did she need Skip for? It's convoluted and it doesn't need to be. Also, her demise at the end of 4x21 is so weak, I get she's a fallen power but come on, is a 2 minute fight sequence in which Angel easily defeats her the best they could do? It's a shame as the arc had been really interesting in 4x18 to the first half of 4x21.

Overall, I see Season 4 as a flawed, but highly enjoyable, thrilling season with lots of good all over it, one that massively improves on some of S3's flaws and showed off high-stakes like no other Buffyverse season had done. It sure wasn't perfect (it's not even my favourite season) but it really deserves much more praise than what it gets.

I'm aware some of you may completely disagree with some of my takes in this rant, I'd love to hear what you think down below.

TL;DR: Angel S4 is imperfect but is way better than people give it credit for.

It was absolutely hilarious 😂 for Angel to be a puppet. I wear i will be saying " you're a bloody puppet" and it's a wee little puppet man for the next few days lol.

I once saw Angel and Spike as a puppet at half price once. Did anyone else love this episode? Did anyone own the puppet?

So, hear me out. First off, I know that if you disregard the comics, it’s pretty easy to assume they all died in that alley in Not Fade Away, wich kinda makes this post irrelevant. But the fact is that, because the finale is open ended, we’ve never got too se what happened after that fight; it could have gone both ways and they could’ve survived as well (which is what happened in the comics).

My point is that as much as I love Not Fade Away and think it’s a fantastic episode, the open ended final scene feels SO unsatisfaying for me. Like, I knew and cared for these characters for so long that I needed closure for them; a real resolution to their arcs, not just an implied one.

And in my opinion, Angel going on to live after a big finale wasn’t gonna cut it. As an immortal, there was only one way his story could be perfectly wrapped up, and that’s with his death. I mean, I know that could apply to human characters as well, but I just don’t see a point for Angel to continue living after the events of his own show. What for? He’s not a young person just starting to live his life, like say, Buffy, he’s a centuries old vampire who already had many experiences, who had lots of chances at life, lots of opportunities, who’d got to experience love, experienced being a father, and who suffered and atoned for his crimes more than enough. So, he lives to keep fighting like forever? That’s not only anticlimatic, but also unjust to Angel, as he’d never be able to rest. To become human? That’s what Angel wanted and I guess that could work, for a while, then he’d want to start fighting again because it’s in his nature, which brings the same issues of not being able to rest. To be with Connor? He has a new family and Angel wouldn’t want to disrupt that. To be with Buffy? It’d bring the same issues that were stated in IWRY, not to mention I can’t see them having a happily ever after, I think they’re not good for each other.

Regardless, I believe that the only satisfying conclusion for his arc would’ve been if he had died in the most possible heroic way in the finale of ATS. Better yet, I would’ve liked to see Angel fulfilling the Shanshu prophecy and becoming human for a few days, enjoying the sunshine and his heartbeat, to die heroically at the end, because as I said, I don’t see a human Angel living peacefully till his old age. That just doesn’t work for his character. The BTVS comics kind of prove this, since from what I read, they butchered Angel’s character there. But that’s usually what happens when a character lives past its point, or as it’s better explained in Batman: you either die as a hero, or live long enough to become the villain. And we already had Angelus.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts and I’m curious to know what you guys think it woul’ve been Angel’s perfect conclusion for his story. Because I barely see any discussion about Angel’s final arc.

Love Lorne and Andy Hallets portrayal is one of a kind. One of several reasons I would have a hard time with the show continuing is it wont be the same without him. I know there’s an in-Universe explanation for him not appearing again, but I mean, we’d have to get a guest spot or something. Its a sad fact that no matter how unlikely more Angel is, its completely impossible to have more Lorne.

I know that this kind of already happened after she had died as we saw during season 4 shortly before the Jasmine arc but if she survived, would you have been interested to see a Darla redemption arc?

I know this idea would’ve made things very complicated narratively, but the Buffyverse has such a wide array of compelling side characters that are practically begging for ‘what if’ scenarios lol

Given the amount of analysis of Buffy/Angel over the years I’m sure this has been discussed, but I haven’t seen it. So.

The shows love setting up these parallels and metaphors between real-world stuff and monster stuff, and to me there’s an obvious one between vampires choosing not to eat people and people choosing not to eat meat. The shows conspicuously ignore this parallel which I think is interesting.

At first only Angel refuses to eat humans. It’s up to head-canon how a soul works exactly, but it more or less gives him empathy for humans he would otherwise lack (and he lost the pure sadism he had as Angelus). But later we see Spike go veg due to his chip and Harmony go veg to conform. Various W&H vampires have to be veg for company policy.

Humans go veg for a variety of reasons too. Some feel big empathy, others have religious reasons, for others it’s health, others are fitting in (especially with a partner), and others have an ethical take that’s not directly tied to emotional empathy e.g. environmentalism or utilitarianism.

Spike at first is basically someone who can’t digest meat anymore due to health reasons. He wishes he could eat meat but he can’t. Harmony is someone who finds she just fits in better with a community who are mostly vegetarian. She doesn’t have a particular conviction about it but is happy to go along.

I think this parallel could have let the show say something more interesting about vampires making what seem to be moral choices. My head-canon is that without a soul vampires are by default amoral. They don’t feel emotional empathy for humans (or anything, really) and they have an impulse to feed. The default way to intellectualise this is to see humans as lesser, as food. So some vampires invent sort of a religion around that, like the master. Other vampires are specifically sadistic, like Angelus. But that sadism is individual. For most vampires the whole killing humans thing is just something you do, and it’s the only model of vampire behaviour they’ve seen around them. It’s the cultural default and they don’t question it.

When Angel exists as a vampire who doesn’t eat people, other vampires see a different model of how they could choose to behave, and it’s up to them to decide whether they like that identity. Spike decides that an identity of a vampire who works with humans suits him better. The whole edgelord-evil thing he did for so long feels lame to him now. He can’t even eat the people so what’s the point? He decides he wants to adopt a different identity, so he goes and gets a soul, which gives him the actual empathy to make the identity stick. This is like the opposite of someone falling in with a gang and wishing they could remove their empathy, which they see as just weakness according to their current identity.

Harmony’s answer is explicitly along these identity lines. She says the whole moustache-twirling creature of the night thing just isn’t her. But without any other model of vampire behaviour, she’s not someone who would invent any alternative.

I think this parallel with vegetarianism is a much more interesting one than some of the analogies they used (anything is better than “magic is drugs”). It’s also right there. We would all believe eating people isn’t ethical, and some people believe eating animals isn’t ethical. But people making conspicuously “ethical” lifestyle choices are not necessarily especially warm or kind or empathetic (and whether they’re actually correct about eating meat is a wholly separate debate).

To me it’s interesting that the show wants nothing to do with this parallel. There are no vegetarian characters on the show and the topic is never raised. I think someone like Tara would almost certainly be vegetarian or vegan, and once Willow thought about the issue she probably be too.

I think they probably worried that it was hard to have this topic on the show without basically coming down on the pro-veg side. We obviously side with the “vegetarian” vampires, which sets up this default implication “vegetarianism is good”. This would be pretty uncomfortable tonally.

Buffy really doesn’t want to have any interesting moral complexity. It can’t say anything more nuanced about addiction than “drugs are bad”, and it’s a universe where “evil” exists as some sort of separate entity. Themes which implied a sort of pro-vegetarian stance really wouldn’t have sat well, especially in the 90s where vegetarianism was a way more “extremist” position.

Besides, vegetarianism isn’t cute, right? The Whedon ideal is a skinny girl who loves to eat heartily like Fred. Girls should be bouncey and fun and caring, but not in a way that will have inconvenient opinions or habits. The perfect Whedon girl is definitely not a scold.

Hii, I made a post last month while watching Angel for the first time, I think at that point I'd gotten to season 3, some of you said to update when finished so I have returned!! I also just need to let this out because I love this community and all the analysis and tidbits you guys provide (yes I may have lurked this sub while watching).

Firstly, holy goodness. The emptiness I felt when that last episode was over and the credits rolled? I haven't felt that way in a while, I genuinely needed a week to recover and sit on it and come to terms with the fact that its done. I'm a long term buffy fan but dare i say....this is better?? Dont sue me I will always hold a very special place in my heart for the scoobies and the queen herself but theres just an element of darkness, realism and world building that I so appreciate. I also really liked the little crossovers, it felt like a nod of respect back and forth between the two shows.

The episode where Buffy visits him in season 1 and then loses her memory at the end? That shit broke me, seeing those sweet intimate normal couple moments? And then she just doesn't remember it, man it hurt but it also felt like a very apt goodbye.

Seeings Angels gang grow and the ongoing looming nature of Wolfram and Hart was so fun, kinda wished they didn't kill Lilah because her character had a lot of depth. Them taking over the LA branch and BYE SPIKE CAME BACK?? I was told to push through to get to that part and so worth it. I will say, while it was funny to see them working there, it felt like the show kinda lost its heart a bit? But that probably is connected to Cordy leaving and my attachment to her. Absolutely adored her role and her developement.

I only had one complaint and it was Fred. I know theres widespread love for her and dont get me wrong, shes lovely I just found it hard to vibe with her character. But then I read a great post on here by someone who basically explained the concept of a "Mary-Sue" and I understood shes very much the ideal female character as a product of her time/ Mr Whedons fantasies. When I shifted perspectives and took her alien trauma into account, cant really hate her. Hated that whole Gunn vs Wesley plotline though because I really liked Gunn and I loved the overall chosen family aspect of the show and I feel like that dilemma kinda ruined it a bit? And Gunn losing his sense of self/ humanity at the firm was sad to see, I loved seeing the earlier version of him and insights into his own LA vamp hunting family and life.

I think I've finally replaced The Crown with a new rewatch show, can't wait to see bubbly Cordy again!

TL;DR: Loved it, kinda hated fred a bit but she a product of her time so its okay, justice for cordelia!! Also Angel my boy ur comedic timing made me giggle many times OMG AND LORNE i didn't mention him but consistently a fantastic character, making angel sing just added to the humour

OKAY WAT DID I JUST WATCH!? First time Angel viewer and omfg. I have no words. I can't believe they just pulled that on me. Nothing has affected me this much since IWRY. Time to go contemplate my existence. (AKA watch another episode of Buffy. But still.)

Do vampires get a strength boost when they put their game face on? Angel and Spike tend to do it when they're pissed or about to go all out.

I watched AtS 1 time back in the late 2000s. This re-watch has been nearly 20 years in the making and I'm going through S3 at present. I just finished "Quickening" and "Lullaby." There's plenty I've forgotten but I never forgot Holtz. I remembered his amazing actor. I remembered him killing a team of gun-wielding hitmen with just a sword. I remembered he's pretty damn compelling as a character.

The only thing I did kinda forget was just how viscerally I hated him as a person and why that is.

The show keeps giving him chances. It keeps giving him moments that look like they should be "eureka, I have something resembling a conscience." Then he takes those chances and stomps all over them. I remember very vividly where his character goes and what he does. At every chance it looks like this time he'll do the right thing. Angel having a soul was a fakeout but maybe Angel having a baby will make a difference. Nope and Nope. Well, he literally raised Connor for like, what, 17 or 18 years? Surely he developed some kind of affection for the boy. Hahaha...ha. He only ever shows himself to be more and more of a prick culminating in what he does to Connor and what he forces his most loyal follower to do.

Daniel Holtz might as well be a being without a soul given how much he "died" with his family, and how he remained fixed at that point of death for the rest of his days. Even vampires like Spike are more dynamic and capable of change.

(Fantastic couple episodes, though. Every bit as great as I remember)

Watching this episode, it occurs to me that Buffy and her crew know all about Wolfram and Hart. Yet, until Angel the Series it was never mentioned. Now, according to Andrew, they seem to know lots about it.

It seems to be a massive ret-con.

Have I got it right?

Hello Angel Investigators, as the title suggests I would like to know people’s Ranking of the 5 seasons of Angel, with a small description of why you’re top is you’re favourite and bottom is least favourite.

I’m going to avoid using extreme spoilers, if you write some yourself try to block them out for newcomers.

This may have been done before but not since I’ve joined and I’m intrigued. I’m currently watching again for maybe the 6th time in 20 years? My rankings go as follows:

5. Season 4 (a few obvious reasons with the dealings of certain characters, it was too mixed and tonally all over the place).

6. Season 3- (the whole Holtz storyline really tired me).

7. Season 1- (a very mixed bag, strong opening episodes but takes a while to find its footing).

8. Season 2- (When Angel really became a product of its own, abandoning ideas of relying on some elements of Buffy, it’s a hell of a lot darker and gruesome)

9. Season 5- (now I don’t know if this is controversial or not, because I’ve only been on this subreddit for less than a week. Season 5 has some of the darkest, yet funniest and most creative episodes. That finale speaks for itself. The moral ambiguity and questions raised in this season really matures the show as a whole and I’ll love it as one of my favourite seasons of tv ever.

Can someone tell me if there’s a lore reason why every vampire seems to know martial arts of some kind? I mean I get angel, spike and even Darla but harmony got turned comparatively recently. How is she seemingly an expert?

Hey y'all. Long time fan here. So, I'm following this reactor(Dakara, love her), and she is reaching the end of S4, and... Ok, Jasmine. What's up with her. I guess my main question is what is her end goal, really? Enslave all of humanity, having everyone worship her and eating some from time to time but overall allowing people to live in what's some kind of world peace? Idk, man. I guess there's a reason people dislike this stroyline. xD

Also bonus questions, how would Buffy deal with her if Angel Team failed? And how would her goal clash with The First? What would happen with that?

Sorry, I'm bored and questiony.

Dinza is a genuinely creepy character between the fact that she looks like a witch crossed with a gargoyle and her eerily soft voice. And unlike most supernatural beings on the show, she's not played for humor at all, Angel's snarky comments aside.

More like the Hair Rebellion, amaright?!

Honestly though, for how serious this scene is it never fails to make me burst out laughing!

It would have been better if Jasmine took over the world. Wolfram and Hart acted as if Jasmine taking over was the worst possible scenario for them. Does that mean, in the end, it would have been better if Jasmine had taken control? Yes free will and all but also less death less demons etc etc

Hi guys, as mentioned in the title I'm on my first watch, so please no spoilers after S5E18! Does Amy's portrayal (and written dialogue/personality parts) of Illyria remind anyone elso of Jeri's portrayal of Seven of Nine from Star Trek Voyager? Especially the voice, and the way of speaking make me think of Seven. Idk if Joss Whedon is a Trek fan, but if so that might explain it.