/r/WarCollege
Credible military history and science.
/r/Warcollege exists is to educate about and discuss military history, from the ancients to Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Ukraine Hybrid War.
Questions, essays, interesting links, or book reviews about a topic are welcome here. Share a military history video! Post that essay on the Battle of Jena, or teach about a nation's style of warfare, discuss the upsides and downsides of infantry doctrines through the ages.
Participation comes first, and you don't have to be an expert to answer a question asked (as long as you can provide sources when asked; we have a handy guide as to how to write an answer here).
Rule 1: Questions should be focused on military history and theory.
r/WarCollege exists to discuss settled military history, doctrine, and theory. We do not do not accept posts discussing events less than one (1) year in the past, as information about these events is still very fluid, hard to verify, and difficult to discuss with our expected levels of rigor.
We do not permit posts speculating on or questions asking for speculation on future events. Questions about current doctrine are permitted, provided they are not speculative about the future effects or implications of said doctrine. E.g. A question or post describing how the United States has prepared for a potential peer conflict with the People’s Republic of China is permitted. A question asking about how such a peer conflict would play out is not permitted. If such a conflict were to break out, questions or discussion on the conflict would not be permitted until one year after.
We do not permit hypothetical posts. This includes “what-if” questions, alternative history, or counterfactual scenarios. These questions are inherently unsourceable, and invite subjective answers that do not meet with our expected levels of rigor. Confine these to the weekly trivia thread.
We do not permit trivia seeking or homework help posts. Questions which are phrased as example seeking, “throughout history”, or other types aimed at generating collections of trivia are permitted only in the weekly trivia thread. Similarly, r/WarCollege does not exist to do your classwork for you, and such questions will be removed.
Submissions to r/WarCollege must be related to military history, doctrine, or theory. Submission must be on topic for r/WarCollege, given our subreddit's stated purpose.
Rule 2: Be polite.
Discussions in this subreddit will almost certainly involve debate and disagreement between users, and you should be ready to agree to disagree. Posts and responses should be polite and informative.
Overly combative posts or responses are not permitted. Users should make their points succinctly and politely and focus on engagement with others’ arguments.
r/WarCollege does not tolerate bigotry of any type. Bigoted language of any kind is not permitted. Posts or comments containing such language will be removed and violators banned.
r/WarCollege does not tolerate atrocity denial or war crime encouragement. Posts or responses that either deny historical atrocities or encourage the committal of atrocities will be removed and users who make such posts or responses will be banned.
Rule 3: Questions must be asked in good faith.
Questions and responses should be made in good faith. Posts or comments which are attempting to push a specific viewpoint rather than engage in discussion are not permitted.
r/WarCollege is not a forum for modern political debate. It is especially not a place to rail against one’s political adversaries. Posts or responses that are nakedly political will be removed and repeat violators will be banned.
Rule 4: Submissions must have a submission statement.
Rule 5: Answers to questions must be well researched and in-depth.
r/WarCollege aims to host a higher level of discussion for military history than would normally be expected on reddit. Answers should be in-depth, comprehensive, accurate, and based on good quality sources. Answers should involve discussion and engagement, and not simply be a block quotation or link elsewhere. Answers based purely on speculation or personal opinion are not permitted.
Users are expected to be able to provide sources for any statements or claims they make on request, and be able to discuss the context and limits of any source provided. Use of tertiary sources (i.e. Wikipedia, pop-history podcasts and videos) is permitted for certain undisputed facts, but reliance on tertiary sources alone is not sufficient. Personal anecdotes do not qualify as sources.
/r/WarCollege
During the Iraq War, violence increased dramatically during the onset of sectarian violence in 2006. Bush, in the beginning of 2007, ordered 20k additional troops to Iraq and appointed Patreus as overall Commander. By the end of 2007, attacks against U.S./Iraqi government forces significantly decreased, alongside civilian casualties.
It is my understanding Patreus took a more population centric approach rather than simply valuing the killing of insurgents. What did this actually mean in practice?
Were the surge and COIN tactics the primary reason for the reduction in violence, or were there other factors at play helping to reduce guerilla activity?
Any anecdotes from people who were present is also appreciated
Obviously is hard to determine the efficiency of an weapon while the war is happening, but certainly we can draw some conclusions regarding the use of heavy propelled guns. The Russians are using 2S4 and 2S7 heavily in the ukrainian theater, with some sources saying that they increased the production of 203mm and 240mm by a lot compared to pre-war numbers, Rob Lee said that 2S4 are "likely a priority for Ukrainian counter-battery fire".
Which leads me to the question, what those heavier calibers can do that 152mm and 155mm can't?
During Yeltsin's and Putin's 2000-08 run, the Russians gave the Chinese abnormally advanced weapons systems before they were procured to their own forces on a large scale or released for the main export market. For example, a batch of SU-30 MKKs and SA-20s during the 1998-2000 timeframe according to the CIA. The Chinese were also intended to be a priority customer for the new R-77 missile which was in development at the time. As late as 2016, SU-35s deployed to Syria for comparison were still decked out with R-27s as per Helion's War in Ukraine Vol 2 despite the threat of AMRAAM armed Turkish F-16s which had no qualms with downing Syrian and even occassionally Russian aircraft as the SU-24 Shootdown showed.
Why didn't this apply to say Backfires? If it did would the PLARF have still felt the need to develop ASBMs as the Backfires and their Kitchen missiles would be a significant improvement over the Badgers and their older anti-ship cruise missiles.
In the modern era it seems like the standard weapon among armies has typically been same. I think a AK's might prioritize rate of fire while western rifles prioritize long range accuracy? But they are still the same type of weapon. I guess you could look at the Korean war and say there is a stark difference between a M14 battle rifle and the AK-47 assault rifle, but they aren't that widely different.
But if you look at the late Roman Republic and the Hellenistic states, it seems like their infantry is wildly different. The Legionaries have a big ass shield and sword, while the descendants of Phillip and Alexander and fighting with really long spears and small shield. It seems like legionaries can be more effective in small groups or disperse, where as phalangites are fucked once their formation breaks up. And it seems like they came out of the similar environments. The mountains around Macedon aren't much different than the mountains the Sammanite wars were fought in, are they?
Bows are a ranged weapon, but they are still a physical object, a large wooden stick. If you stick a knife somewhere on the bow, as you might with a rifle, then you could use the bow in melee without resorting to using another weapon. With a little upgrade, you could very well have a short spear on your hands.
Actually, isn't the bow as it is a plausible melee weapon? You could use the string of the bow to choke someone. The wood of the bow is taut and could snap violently, and they end in sharp points. The arrows of the bow are like little spears. Why not modify the bow to make it more versatile?
I've often heard it argued that Austria-Hungary was a terrible ally and was generally a detriment to the Germans, with failures against the Serbians, Russians often cited as proof. However I have also heard counterarguments that the Germans fucked them over in the early war. They agreed on rather different troop deployments pre-war then what actually happened. This meant that the Austrian and Serbian troops had roughly the same numbers (except that the serbs had already experienced modern war), and they had to face more Russian troops. This lead to high early losses which meant that they lacked the officers and well trained men to build a proper modern force. Additionally while mostly under German leadership, combined with German forces they did achieve victories. So overall what was their performance really like? Were they really so terrible allies?
Also what's the consensus on Conrad von Hötzendorf? He is also often refered to as very incompetent but many of his contemporaries had a high opinion of him. Shaposhnikov even refered to him as his ideal chief of staff in Mozg Armii. If he really was that incompetent why did they praise him?
Like for example at Chaeronea did the Macedonians (and allies) fight Thebes/Athens (and allies) in a straight line or did individual units square off against each other with gaps in between?
Screenshot from a video simulating the T-90M's hull withstanding DM53
I've seen the hull armour composition of the T-72B obr 1989 and the T-90M mentioned in various forums and simulation videos on youtube, but I've yet to find a written source or even a blog that describes this armour composition. Tankograd has a good article of the T-72's protection up to the T-72B obr 1985, but apparently the T-72B obr 1989 and the T-90 series use this new composition of 60mm RHA, 5mm Rubber, 3mm RHA, 18mm Air, 3mm RHA, 5mm Rubber, 60mm RHA, 10mm antiradiation material, 50mm RHA.
Does anyone have any written (English or Russian) sources or even videos from a reputable source that describe this armour?
At the very least, Helion's War in Ukraine Vol 2, the Russian Invason states that the Russian air defences had to be jammed so that they didn't engage the Tomahawks. The Operations Room made it seem like both sides fleets were very close to directly engaging.
Everything I've read about the Moskva-class says that they were designed to protect the SSBN bastions in the Barents Sea and Sea of Okhotsk from NATO SSN infiltration. However, both ships of this class were part of the Black Sea Fleet and rarely seem to have deployed outside the Mediterranean. Why is this?
I'm primarily curious regarding what the DPRK's initial military goals would be if they were to move forward with military action against the south.
I understand they often engage in sabre rattling with South Korea. However, I've always thought it seemed fairly unlikely for North Korea to actually gain total control over the South. At least in recent decades. The amount of population growth and industrialization that's occurred since the ceasefire makes it seem unlikely for the North to successfully absorb the South.
So I'm interested in whether we know what North Korean plans would be if war did break out. Would they be planning a limited land grab or just retaining their current territory? Or do they believe they have the manpower and capabilities to actually make an attempt to fully unify Korea?
Like Big Bertha or Schwerer Gustav, how were they turned left and right after being assembled? Did the artillerists plan the only target in advanse and had to partly disassemble and reassemble the gun when they needed to shoot something 6° to the right?
Reading some recent military history focused on the American Civil War, I was struck by some of the similarities between the (stated) strategy of the South and Japan during World War 2: specifically that they knew they were overmatched by the total resources of their opponent but they intended to make total victory slow/expensive enough that their opponent would "give up" and agree to a peace treaty that gave them at least part of their goals for starting the war.
Nazi Germany seems to also have at least attempted this strategy after 1943 or so, again with the idea they could fight defensively and inflict enough casualties that their opponents would agree to a favorable peace.
Of course, another similarity here is that they were A) both fighting America, and B) it didn't work.
The strategy itself seems to rely on two main assumptions. The first is that fighting defensively is more efficient than fighting offensively, however you'd like to define any of those terms. The second is that your opponent actually cares about the inefficiency, enough to stop fighting.
I'm not sure about the first assumption, it's easy to imagine that if you had a choice, you'd rather be the soldier in the trench/bunker with your sandbags and emplaced machine guns rather than the one charging across the field on the attack, but artillery and the force concentrations allowed by railroads/trucks/etc seem to be more of an advantage in practice.
The second assumption also seems fairly reasonable, especially when you consider someplace like America which has elections every 2 years, any of which could, in theory, cause the government to change enough to want to stop fighting. On the other hand, it never seems to actually work out that way in practice. It's hard to say why that is, perhaps something about the voting populace caring more about the appearance of victory than the exact numbers involved, e.g. a civil war victory where there's 15,000 union casualties vs 13,000 confederate casulaties, but the union still gets to call it a victory because they forced the confederates to retreat.
I suspect the two main examples that are going to instantly come to everyone's mind are the Korean War and the Vietnam war, so I'll go ahead and address them right now.
For the Korean War, my understanding is, that while there were a whole bunch of people with a whole bunch of semi-conflicting goals, you can reasonably summarize the goals of the North Korean side as wanting to conquer South Korea and the goal of the opposing forces being to preserve the independence of South Korea. When the war "ended", South Korea was still around and controlled more or less its original territory, which seems like a pretty clear victory for that side.
As to the Vietnam War, the original goals seem to be the same, North conquering the South, but while the North definitely won the war by achieving their goals, I don't think you could characterize their strategy as defensive. They started the war on the offensive and kept making offensive attacks into the south, basically until they won.
The recent afghanistan war might be a better example, but it seems hard for me to classify the events that caused the americans to leave the country as a war. This is of course, a bit of a semantic argument, but it seems reasonable to me to classify most of what happened after the intitial invasion as being non-state actors committing terrorism in order to achieve a specific goal, the dissolution of the american backed government.
A large aircraft like a bomber seems like it would require the crew to coordinate lots of activities at the same time to work well, just like a warship or an armored vehicle. The latter two free up their leader from steering their vehicle to focus on command. Why are military aircraft different?
What tactics were used to finally tilt the balance against horse archers like the Golden Horde and Mongols? What were some of the interesting examples of battles where tactics were developed to defeat these tactics?
In general the eastward expansion of the Rus is really interesting to me.
I'm looking for readings covering frameworks/concepts/theories of how armed conflicts have affected civilians, particularly in terms of humanitarian needs and assistance provision.
Case studies from the 20th century that involve the likes of bombings or blockades without ground fighting would be ideal but not necessary. Thank you!
Why were casualties among the US so high? Was it a tactics issue, or just the horrors of urban combat? Has change been made for urban combat to prevent casualties like that from happening again?
The care in the manufacturing process varied throughout the war, and it significantly dropped in the last days of war due to the scarcity of metals (the XXI is the biggest example).
How much care did the Germans put into building the Uboots? Did they have standards for steels and machining/building tolerances?
We've all probably heard the story about soldiers thinking they could elect their own officers, but what actually happened within the Russian Army after the Tsar was overthrown in 1917? Was there an exodus of aristocratic officers loyal to the Tsar? Did the political turmoil disrupt army logistics or organization? Was the Army more or less effective than it had been since 1914? Did the new government attempt military reforms, or were things too tenuous for anything like that to be attempted?
I know we're talking about a relatively short period of time, but I realized I know next to nothing about what was happening at the front during this time.
So ive been wondering what was used by the US Army in Somalia in 1993. The movie black hawk down got me thinking about the equipment and gear used.
I'm taking about guns,knives,utility tools,rucksacks, buttpacks, personal and field medic first aid kits,body armor,load bearing gear, flashlights,etc.
I wanted to know the names of the stuff used since im a military equipment nerd. I'm also looking for pictures of delta modified Pro-Tec helmets alongside customized/modified 1911s especially.
I plan to use this stuff in a book based off a early access game that's set in the 80s but i changed to the 90s that's set in Texas.
Its called Into The Dead Our Darkest Days.
Any helps appreciated.
I've been trying to find some information about the Czech's L159 Alca performance and what it is actually used for. It seems to have had quite a bit of success being exported, especially to the Iraqi army, and it's production was even restarted again after decades.
The aircraft was developed from a trainer aircraft in an attempt to become free of Soviet models after the cold war. So again, what does it actually do?
Im also hearing all sorts of ideas of developing other very cheap, Subsonic aircraft and even piston and propeller engine aircraft, presumably as a very stable base to carry out close air support. Why are these better ideas than just using multi role aircraft? It seems to also be an admission that this type of close air support can only be carried out with complete air supremacy and that A10s are completely obsolete for anything else (and the su25), or even that they can only be used for anti-insurgency roles.
And why arnt drones being pushed into the role? There's no way I'd want to be a pilot in one of these planes, so use observer drones instead and laser targets for glide bombs, or observe for HIMARs/conventional artillery missions. Or use the multi role aircraft of which their are alrdiscounting
If we are saying slow moving aircraft arnt so vulnerable in areas of operation, surely helicopters are an obvious option before light attack aircraft? They allow extremely accurate ground fire with massively reduced chance of friendly fire, don't need a runway and can be used in supply and evacuation roles with the friendly forces they are supporting (discounting the apache)
Originally started as a rebellion and being beaten around by everyone (from what I understood), they managed to come back after a great retreat and beat everyone else in return. Few years later after the civil war they also fought against the west in the Korean war.
Im interested in knowing what changed between the start of the civil war and the Korean war. When did these reforms take place and what changes were actually made to the PLA? I was looking for books but cant find much about it since its all overshadowed by Mao's political career. Resources or books (or other recommendations) on this topic would be highly appreciated.
Let's say the M4 IS replaced by the MCX Spear. What would happen to all the M4s? Would they be destroyed? Sold at auction?
thank you.