/r/althistory

Photograph via snooOG

Welcome to /r/althistory, the alternate history subreddit! Here you can discuss alternate history matters, whether they be books, essays, TV shows, movies, or podcasts.

Common Acronyms and Phrases:

  • AH stands for Alternate History.
  • WI stands for What If.
  • OTL stands for Our Time Line, history as it happened.
  • ATL stands for Alternate Time Line
  • POD stands for Point Of Divergence or the point at which a fictional timeline diverges from OTL.
  • ASB stands for Alien Space Bats, referring to alternate history so implausible it would have required the intervention of "alien space bats."
  • ISOT stands for Island in the Sea of Time, the S.M. Sterling novel which popularized the idea of transporting people and places to a different time period. ISOTs are, by their nature, always ASB.
  • DBWI stands for Double-Blind What-If, where OTL history is examined from an AH perspective. ex: "What if the Soviets put the first man in space?" asks a character from a timeline where the USA put the first man in space.
  • The butterfly effect, where small changes accrue over time to significantly alter events.
  • Counterfactual histories, the scholarly version of alternate history.
  • Wank, refers to when a nation is made unrealistically powerful.
  • Scew, the opposite of a wank.

Related Subreddits:

  • /r/HistoryWhatIf: An alternate history subreddit dedicated exclusively to answering traditional what-if questions.
  • /r/AskHistorians: Direct any questions about actual history to this excellent sub.

/r/althistory

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1

Mexican Empire Althistory

In this ATL I am mainly going from the late stage of the French Intervention - since most follow a total victory and keep Maximilian as Emperor I am going from "El Joven Emperador" Agustín II.

By this point during the continuation of the Reform War what's more well known as the "Mexican Adventure" or "The French Intervention in Mexico" the Conservative General; Leonardo Márquez retreats from the then besieged Santiago de Querétaro in march of 1867 and with a promise to return and relieve them he sets for Puebla to capture it and set up an independent Conservative State which would succeed the falling Empire. OTL, in early April (the 2nd I believe) he is defeated by Porfirio Díaz and besieged in Mexico City wherein the city would eventually fall in June of that year to Porfirio Díaz.

This ATL sees to it that Márquez defeats Díaz handedly enough to where Díaz is captured and therefore executed by the dreaded "Tiger of Tacubaya" and he relieves Puebla and takes command of conservative forces in the South. Raising funds and recruiting soldiers to the new Imperial Army. Many of these troops are garnered through conservative favour, as despite Benito Juarez being an Indian he is very unpopular among them for repressive actions whereas the Empire enfranchised them. In any case, this "Southern Army" intends to make way to relieve Querétaro regardless of Márquez' intentions - he most likely doesn't make it in time and like OTL the Emperor and the two of three members of Mexico's top military command for the Empire; Miguel Miramón & Tomás Mejía Camacho are executed on June 19th.

However with the successful cabinet formed in Puebla, Márquez and in a much better position than OTL (but not great, frankly) he might allow for the succession of Agustín de Iturbide y Green as Emperor who at this time is only about 4 years old. Some might question why his Father would not succeed, this is because Agustín was to be groomed for the position - some say that Maximilian intended to give the throne to his nephew; Archduke Franz Ferdinand, which would have been funny but this would require Miguel to win at San Jacinto(? the name doesn't come to me) or perhaps make the U.S. not intervene at all (impossible).

The young Emperor would naturally be regented by the saviour of the Empire, whose forces would face off with the Juaristas. He has a much better chance with more than just 4,000 tired soldiers. Most likely a battle or siege would take place centering on Mexico City itself, ideally for Imperial forces they'd take the city first and be able to route the liberals and give chase. Márquez I cannot stress enough was notorious enough in life for his sentencing, what stopped him most of the time were the orders of the three aforementioned men who were executed. With no one he almost certainly will seek to execute Benito Juarez and other important Liberal figures. Maybe even as many American soldiers too - which might cause issues but strictly speaking said Juarista American soldiers were "deserters" if allowed to.

He could easily fail, which essentially just makes it more likely he will be killed too and in this ATL he'll probably be slightly more fondly remembered than he is. But for a more interesting ending, he defeats Benito Juarez and chases down the routing forces and successfully captures Benito himself among others and executes them en masse along with as many officers and foreign (American) soldiers as possible.

The aftermath is much of the same, hunting down potential guerrillas and solidifying conservative victory. America will be upset by these turn of events but won't do much more and probably even stop their border soldiers from deserting. At this stage many of the French Legionnaires and other foreigners who stayed (or were left behind, aforementioned legionnaires were meant to bolster Maximilian's forces however otl and atl many of these men deserted prior to Querétaro.) and either go back home or are integrated into the reorganized Imperial Army.

Leonardo likely does not care about Maximilian's ideas but he probably wouldn't mind the likes of those living in Carlota (Confederates invited by Maximilian) and others. There's not much to comment on his political beliefs except that he reportedly was disgusted by the reformers and near death he was reportedly heavily religious. Having been one of the supporters of Maximilian's enthronement and also a rival of Miguel I think he would probably be satisfied with the regent position and would have curtailed the points of la Reforma. This means Mexican society will promote religious values and will overall be less secular and less egalitarian but also much more "multicultural" in a reactionary way. Amerindians in Mexico would probably be the best treated on the continent though I suspect this changes in the 1930s due to a similar crisis PRI Mexico had with their agriculture. Of which will in ATL be a combination of Church lands, private land and Amerindian communal land.

I think reforms would still happen, the "Conservatives" of this period would probably look toward Europe. Immigration happens, might be more attractive for Irish and Italian migrants - American diaspora belonging to this group might even leave for Mexico around 1905. However Mexico has similar issues to the Porfiriatio regime except it's military is much stronger and many who would rebel during the Mexican rebellion are either crushed very quickly or do not at all - having been satisfied.

After Leonardo either dies or retires control is still largely vested in the Congress which is filled primarily with militarymen under the reign of Agustín II. They might get involved in ww1 but not because of the Zimmerman telegram. Likelier, if Mexico copies the American method of intervention they'll send supplies to Germany via Austria-Hungary. America intervenes in the same way but fights a slightly better supplied Germany and likely does the same thing that got America involved. This hampers the American war effort and by this point Mexico might have a greater advantage though they'd be unable to push beyond a potentially successful "Plan of San Diego". But it could also be the case that they don't get involved at all.

I think going forward would depend on what happens here but I think what I have written has done well enough to describe this little worldline.

0 Comments
2024/04/25
03:01 UTC

0

What if Bulgaria joined the Entente? How will this affect the war?

In the OTL timeline Bulgaria joined the Central Powers during World War 1 in order to expand their domain, but after the Central Powers lost they had to forfeit territories to Romania, Yugoslavia, and Greece and pay harsh reparations.

But what if Bulgaria joined the Entente on the promise that they will restore the territories they lost to Serbia and the Ottoman Empire during the Second Balkan War? How will this affect WW1?

1 Comment
2024/04/24
12:59 UTC

2

What if Siberia never existed?

If Siberia never existed; then how would history, cultures, demographics, climate/the weather, flora, fauna, languages, etc be different?

3 Comments
2024/04/24
01:08 UTC

3

What if tito and the chetniks allied in WW2?

0 Comments
2024/04/22
09:26 UTC

2

What if Uruguay and Paraguay never Existed as Independent Countries?

And they were never created as sovereign states and were instead absorbed into other South American countries. How could history, politics and cultures be different?

2 Comments
2024/04/22
01:13 UTC

1

What if a Pan-Spanish American Coalition of Countries was formed after the Spanish-American Independence Wars as a Supranational Political and Economic Bloc?

The Rise of the "Unión Hispanoamericana" (Spanish American Union): And what if it also had a Binding Mutual Security Pact? This is very unrealistic but it's fun as a thought experiment I think. So how could history, socioeconomic development, politics, cultures, etc be altered in this alternate timeline?

0 Comments
2024/04/22
00:55 UTC

1

What if the Latin American Wars of Independence failed?

If these wars failed and the Latin American colonies of Spain were granted equal status in terms of citizenship (and one of them like Mexico became an integral* overseas territory of Spain sort of like French Algeria): then how could history, demographics, cultures, politics, etc be changed?

similar to the Overseas Departments of France, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_departments_and_regions_of_France

0 Comments
2024/04/22
00:17 UTC

1

What if Brazil broke up into Multiple Countries after Independence?

If Brazil split into nations; then how could this have affected history, cultures, demographics, politics and international relations, etc?

0 Comments
2024/04/22
00:05 UTC

1

What if All Caribbean Islands were Connected to North America and never existed as Islands?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean

How would history, languages, demographics, cultures, climate, flora, fauna, geography, politics, etc be different?

0 Comments
2024/04/21
23:33 UTC

2

What if Central America was a Giant Island?

How could history, demographics and cultures be different?

0 Comments
2024/04/21
23:33 UTC

3

What if a Slave Rebellion in the Swahili Coast formed a Sultanate?

In this scenario/timeline, Slaves across the Swahili Coast rebel against their masters and succeed in overthrowing them in a major revolt similar to that of the Zanj Rebellion, creating a sultanate of their own called the ''Kiswahili Sultanate'' like the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt.

How would this have impacted history, economics, politics, cultures, demographics and international relations?

0 Comments
2024/04/21
00:17 UTC

1

What if France decided to back Austria during the War of the Bavarian Succession? How would that affect the outcome of the war? And how would that affect the American Revolution?

In the OTL Prussia went to war with Austria over Bavaria to prevent the Habsburgs from expanding the influence. Austria asked France for help but they were too busy with the American Revolution to assist them. As a result, Austria did not have the resources to defeat Austria so the two had to go to the negotiating table where Austria settled for a fraction of Bavaria (Innviertel). But what if France never fully backed the American Revolution and focused on the War of the Bavarian Succession instead? How would that affect the outcome of the war? And how would that affect the American Revolution?

Edit: The reason why they take an interest in the war is because in exchange for their assistance they want the Austrian Netherlands.

Note: This is assuming that Spain becomes the main backer of the Revolution.

War of the Bavarian Succession | Austrian-Prussian Conflict, Treaty of Teschen & Bavarian Annexation | Britannica

2 Comments
2024/04/20
16:09 UTC

0

What if Russia was Zoroastrian today? {Zoroastrian Russia alternate history}

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/pc-wi-zoroastrian-russia.470034/

If Islam didn't exist and the Kievan Rus converted to Zoroastrianism instead of Christianity and Russia became a Zoroastrian nation; how would this have impacted history*, economic development, social dynamics, cultures, demographics, architecture, art, languages, politics, etc? Perhaps the Avestan Alphabet would be used instead of Cyrillic called the ''Russo-Avestan Script''

1 Comment
2024/04/20
12:26 UTC

0

What if Turkey was Zoroastrian?

What if Zoroastrianism survived and when the Turkic Peoples invade the Iranian Plateau, they convert to Zoroastrianism and still take over Anatolia with various Zoroastrian Turkic Beyliks forming as well? And afterward, a Zoroastrian Turkish Empire is created like the Ottoman Empire in our timeline.

How could history, cultures, languages, demographics, borders, conflicts/international relations/politics, cuisines, fashion, social dynamics, art, architecture and legal affairs be changed? Would Bosnia and Albania be Zoroastrian? Could the Kurdish people be Zoroastrian? (assuming that Islam doesn't exist in this timeline then I think the Kurds would likely be Zoroastrian and Eastern Christian in religious affiliation.)

2 Comments
2024/04/20
11:44 UTC

1

What if Arianism somehow became a Non-Heretical Major Denomination of Christianity?

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/ahc-arianism-ascendant.474526/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism

How would this have affected history*, theology, cultures, languages, demographics, religious affiliation, politics & international relations, etc?

0 Comments
2024/04/20
10:33 UTC

0

What if Taiwanese Aborigines created an Extensive and Durable Civilization on Taiwan?

(Formosan Realm of the Siraya Confederacy) The Taiwanese Aborigines established a state-level Civilization of their own called the ''Siraya Confederacy'' unifying most of Taiwan. The Atayal people, for example, known for their impressive defensive fortifications, while the Bunun excelling in ironworking proved to be very important and valuable for safeguarding the Siraya-led Confederacy of Native Taiwanese People(s) and their crucial trader ship fleets transporting goods to Mainland China, Korea, Japan and Southeast Asia. After the Siraya-led confederacy inevitably fractures into pieces, various Taiwanese Aborigine states emerge and fight to re-unify Taiwan including some of them getting help at times from Mainland Chinese Dynasties and Korea. They make a maritime trade network with ironclad ships as well. Perhaps when the Spaniards and Dutch arrive, they are better able to deal with them possibly adopting gunpowder weaponry which might spark the formation of a Taiwanese Aborigine gunpowder empire-like Kingdom there (or maybe not).

How would this have affected Taiwan's history, cultures, languages, textiles/fashion, architecture, body art, demographics, politics, international relations, religious makeup, etc? Would this Austronesian Civilization of Taiwanese Aborigines be able to better resist Chinese encroachment and settlement??

(Though I wonder if the Amis People would still have the largest population of Indigenous Taiwanese people on the Island...)

0 Comments
2024/04/20
02:13 UTC

0

What if the Indian Subcontinent Landmass was Never Connected to Asia?

I mean what if it never smashed into Asia at all and instead, it just stayed as an Island?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternateHistory/comments/1c803t9/what_if_the_indian_landmass_never_collided_with/

How would everything be affected including histories, languages, cultures, demographics, architecture, religions, politics, international relations, climates, flora and fauna, geographies, etc?

0 Comments
2024/04/20
00:04 UTC

0

What if Adoptionism became the Chief or Principal Christian Doctrine?

If Adoptionism became the Creed of Mainstream Christianity never becoming a heresy; then how would this have affected history, theology, cultures, politics, international relations, etc?

0 Comments
2024/04/19
11:50 UTC

0

What if the Duranni Empire never Ever Existed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durrani_Empire

if this Afghan Empire never existed; then how would this have affected history, international relations/conflicts, economic development, social dynamics, languages, etc?

0 Comments
2024/04/19
00:35 UTC

5

What would the situation in the Middle East look like today had Israel not rejected soviet-style communism and became another soviet puppet in the Middle East? Would all the Soviet-armed Muslims have still spent the next 80 years parroting Soviet anti-Zionism propaganda?

Would Stalin have not turned against the soviet Jewish population in the late-40s? No anti-cosmopolitan campaign, no doctors plot? Or would Stalin probably have turned on the Jews even if Israel chose to be their puppet state? Seems like he had no problem wiping out every other “enemy of the people” ethnic minority in the 30s after all.

Had Israel sided with the Soviets, would it still exist today? Would there be “peace in the Middle East” because the Soviets would have just disappeared all the Palestinians instead of keeping them endlessly stuck there in a forced inescapable limbo?

Basically what would the Middle East situation be today if Israel chose to go communist and enter the soviet sphere of influence instead of the western one? Had the USSR not spent so much money and resources it didn’t really have arming everyone in the Middle East against Israel, would it have maybe lasted a bit longer? Or would they have just focused their gunspamming on other regions? How many more Russian-armed dictators would there be in South America and Southeast Asia if they didn’t have to invest so heavily on keeping the holy war going?

0 Comments
2024/04/14
17:24 UTC

3

If the UK had lost to Germany but America still went ahead and entered World War 2, would aircraft carriers have been used far more in the European Theater?

Saw this.

And US Navy is not very important on the European Theater as the British Islands are a very good giant aircraft carrier... So these allied ressources are not very important in Europe...

I know that the whole reason why aircraft carriers didn't become a thing in the Europe during World War 2 was precisely because how close countries were. Germany can just build air bases and camps across various countries and transfer planes there or refuel them in a prolonged air campaign from there. Russia could easily do the same. And the UK was close enough to Germany that sending air bombers en mass wasn't an issue and any flight force they send could easily return back to bases in England in a day after bombing Berlin and other spots. They could even reach as far as the around Greece with careful planning and fuel estimates and sit either in nearby neutral or allied countries or land temporarily in uninhabited sports and refuel using stocks on the plane. If not even return back home directly after an operation (albeit very risky and difficulty).

Its very telling that almost all significant British navy victories using aircraft carrier doctrine was in the Pacific........ And the fact almost no American aircraft carrier was stationed in Europe.

So in a supposed scenario where UK gets conquered or surrenders and prevents America from using airbases........ If America still gets into war anyway with Germany or assuming its past 1942 they still continue fighting on alone.... Would that mean aircraft carrier would essentially play a most important role in the European Theater? That rather than countattacks against submarines and the famed nonstop barrages against military fortresses from naval cannons that the US Navy is so associated with in Europe, aircraft carrier would take up the imaginations of people as what they picture when they think of American naval action in the European theater?

In turn with a much safer position and assuming everything else goes as in real life regarding Soviet Union at least at the point of the victory at Stalingrad and mass retreat of German forces and destruction of the very large force in USSR sent in 1942, but POD afterwards...... Whether Russia advances at the quick pace as OTL or ends up getting bogged down with much slower progress since Germany is now free from the UK front, would the Kriegsmarine focus on developing large numbers of aircraft carriers to counteract American naval action before they could come close to hitting bases in Europe with the cliche American naval bombardment? So much more known ship to ship battles between America and Germany but with carriers in combined action with destroyers, submarines, and other existing ships? On top of finally carrying out the wishes that some German admirals wanted of advancing the navy into aircraft carriers, would a lot of canceled naval plans for planes specializing for fighting over waters such as the experimental Blohm & Voss BV 222 end up not only being OK'D into production and German factories churning out planes specifically for the Kriegsmarine?

Does the war last longer and gets bloodier on the naval front alone (and disregarding the army and luftwaffe operations)? How does the Luftwaffe gets utliized when America sends a crap ton of aircraft carrier in their European flees with more reinforcements coming over pretty soon?

2 Comments
2024/04/14
03:18 UTC

0

What if the Dutch annexed East Timor/Timor-Leste? How would this affect the country's political, economic, and social development? And how would this affect the Portuguese trading post of Macau?

So for some reason the Dutch have never been able to take the Portuguese colony of East Timor. But let's say that by the end of the 18th century East Timor came under Dutch rule, either by force or via purchase.

How would this affect the country's political, economic, and social development?

And since Timor's Sandalwood trade with China was the only thing that was keeping the Portuguese outpost of Macau profitable, how would it be affected?

0 Comments
2024/04/13
17:08 UTC

1

What if the Liberal Party introduced and implemented a Land Value Tax in the United Kingdom before WW1?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Liberal_and_Labour_Parties_in_the_United_Kingdom

How would this have affected history, politics and socio-economic development?

0 Comments
2024/04/13
11:57 UTC

2

What if the Red Army Purge of 1941 never Occurred at all?

Would the Soviet Red Army be in better shape or worse condition if the purge never happened? How could this have affected military effectiveness/wartime performance, the industries of the USSR and the Soviet Union as a whole?

In this timeline or scenario, Stalin doesn't purge the Red Army instead he keeps the people that were purged in our timeline in the Red Army but under increased surveillance.

1 Comment
2024/04/10
08:15 UTC

1

What if there was no opium trade/war with China? How would China develop socially, politically, and economically? And how would their relations with the Europeans and the Japanese be different from the OTL?

Let's say that the opium trade/war with China never happened as a result of India never getting colonized, which in turn prevents the British from using the country to grow their opium crops. If this were to happen, how would China develop socially, politically, and economically? And how would their relations with the Europeans and the Japanese be different from the OTL? For example, how would trade with China develop over the 19th century? Another example, would be how they would deal with France, Russia, and Japan expanding their territories/spheres of influence into China?

0 Comments
2024/04/10
01:44 UTC

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