Is Nosleep in decline? Will it come back to life? Why is Nosleep so dead these days? Where are all the good stories?

Readers are asking questions.

I couldn't say for sure, my experiences with Nosleep are from a writer's perspective, and not good (I even get called a writer that is not good, often enough). In fact, I'm more unpopular than I'll ever be popular, but at my age, I really don't care about popularity, or else I wouldn't post something like this.

(Note to self: if i really believe this is true, post it - i dare me)

I was going to mention that the attention given to stories doesn't correspond to the quality, creativity or effort but rather Reddit's meme-driven algorithm, as most stories with many upvotes were cherrypicked for the display page offered to users. In other words, when it comes to Reddit posts, karma begets more karma. The writers who exploit that by having high karma from posting memes, (7.9k upvotes for a picture of toilet paper and a six-word caption) get the attention, regardless of what they write.

At the same time, nearly a thousand writers with too much self-respect or innocent ignorance of how this website works have come to me over the past few years with many of their best stories that Nosleep culled. Nosleep does remove stories of these low-karma writers* to curate a better-looking sub where mostly only stories with hundreds of upvotes remain. They will remove any low-upvote story for vague reasons such as 'Wrong Subreddit', 'Not Scary', 'Incomplete', 'Not Plausible' and my favorite 'Not A Story' and just tack these on arbitrarily, leaving some of their best writers flustered, confused and frustrated to the point where they walked away, and a few never came back.

*For newer writers: you can avoid this situation entirely by getting your story workshopped/preapproved on r/NoSleepAuthors

I used to adore, respect and spend a lot of my time on Nosleep, long before I ever posted anything. I didn't become the heretic and the bad writer and the asshole that I am today by some natural flaw in my personality. No, this jaded beast is the result of getting burned and realizing I'm not alone. I saw writers walking away, and all I did was make friends with them. This is a natural consequence of reaping what we sow, and that is why you, dear readers, are asking your very valid questions.

P.S.

Now I've heard the response from 'successful' Nosleep writers who defend this practice, saying it is fair and deserved or say that I am just a hater. That's fine, that's your opinion. To me it sounds entitled, and that's my opinion. Over the last few years, I've enjoyed reading a kind of consequential gathering, where writers with real talent share some of their best work elsewhere, and I love it, so this process is actually working out for me. Keep up the good work!

What it says in the title. I tend to read a range of stuff on there but I’m noticing even the good stuff barely gets any notice. Is there a writer shortage?

Hey everyone! Long time, no see. I've been so focused on working on my novels that I haven’t had much time to write for Nosleep lately. But I wanted to share some exciting news—I recently finished and published two novels, both inspired by stories I originally posted here on Nosleep!

This community and your feedback have been such a huge part of my journey. These books wouldn’t exist without your support, so thank you from the bottom of my heart!

Here are the books and their blurbs:

Persona In Strata

Dr. Ian Foster never imagined his life as a paleontologist would thrust him into a world of secrets, mysteries, and impossible discoveries. When he receives a cryptic call from Canada’s elite Response Unit, he is drawn into a covert mission that will shatter his understanding of time and history. Beneath ancient bedrock in the icy Yukon lies a train, preserved in prehistoric layers and over sixty-six million years old—a find that defies logic and scientific law.

As Ian and his eccentric team dig deeper, they uncover secrets that could rewrite history. Confronted with clues that hint at time travel, Ian must face the ultimate question: could humanity’s future lie buried in the past?

Join Ian, his fearless colleague Shun, and the quirky train enthusiast Rodney on a journey that will test the limits of science, loyalty, and the human spirit.

Get your copy here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DP5FW63V

The Culmination of Man

Father Luca Ferretti’s shocking suicide within the sacred walls of his church leaves behind a haunting mystery and a manuscript that defies imagination. When archbishop Matteo Giordano takes up the quest for answers, he discovers an extraordinary tale of Luca’s surreal journey through time.

After a strange insect sting, Luca is catapulted into the future, each leap propelling him further into a world unrecognizable and more distant than the last. As millennia pass in the blink of an eye, Luca grapples with questions of faith, reality, and what it means to witness the end of history itself.

Will Luca find salvation in his journey—or will the weight of eternity drag him into damnation?

Perfect for fans of thought-provoking fiction and deeply layered storytelling, The Culmination of Man is a gripping tale of sacrifice, resilience, and the human spirit's relentless pursuit of meaning.

Get your copy here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/915312667X

If you decide to read either of them, I’d love to hear your thoughts! You can share your feedback here on Reddit or by leaving a review on Amazon or Goodreads—it would mean the world to me.

Once again, thank you for being such an incredible community! I can’t wait to return with some new short stories soon.

Okay, I've only noticed it on mine as I've been too busy to read as much as I'd like unfortunately, but I've noticed an influx of comments complaining about my writing style and I've never received that once throughout the history of all my submissions, and I've always written in exactly the same way. It's not a new thing, if it was I wouldn't be surprised.

Sure, my style is not for everyone (it's HP Lovecraft, Angela Carter type influence) but I've not had any comments speaking against it till now; the community has been positive and I'm assuming if people weren't a fan of my stuff (which is fine) they'd move on to something that was more their cup of tea.

Is there something going on that I'm not aware of? This is my first story that's gained traction in a while as I've been nervous to post again, so I'm assuming that's part of it.

Not gonna lie it's soured the joy of a story getting decent readership but I'm not intending to stop doing what I'm doing or anything. I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed this on any of their works or similar as I can't say I've seen comments like that in anyone's comment section before!

Has anyone else noticed a trend of stories using the word mortified incorrectly? I've noticed it mainly on YouTube because I listen to a lot of creepypasta narrations there. I noticed some using it multiple times to refer to something being scary.

It's a pet peeve of mine and really brings me out of the story. "Mortifying" indicates something is very embarrassing or shameful. Witnessing a gruesome death or supernatural being should usually not leave a character mortified. Unless maybe they're naked or it barged in on them sitting on the toilet. >_<

I have two questions about what I'm allowed to post on NoSleep.

Firstly, I know there's a rule about gore not being the focus of a story, but are stories with brief scenes of "extreme" gore allowed? Or stories that involve heavy gore without that being the central "scary thing" about the story?

Secondly, one of my stories has a background character who is a very bigoted and prejudiced person. No slurs are present, and his views are only described by the main character. Would that go against "hate speech" rules?

I don't want to post anything that would break the guidelines / be inappropriate for the sub, and if stories with these elements aren't allowed, I'll happily refrain from posting them here.

Life kind of piled up on me and it has been a couple of years since I've posted to r/nosleep . Now that things are starting to settle down, I may be able to make time to start writing again. I've got a couple of stories bopping around inside my head that really want to get out, so I was reviewing the guidelines. Seems like they've changed a lot. There's no mention of a required 1st person POV, the narrator must be able to post online, the "if you can look out your window and see it's not happening" rule, or "everything is true even if it isn't." Has r/nosleep opened up to things like 3rd person perspective, period horror, or apocalyptic stories? Do people still have to roleplay in the comments?

I've been writing stories every so often in my free time since I was young but never shared my fiction and most of my stories end with me being confused on how to create a situation where my plot would logically and realistically begin. I want to start sharing my work but wonder about how much this matters to readers.

For example, the first story I plan to share on no sleep has a protagonist who ends up in an AI-controlled simulated reality/consciousness. Since we don't even have the scientific understanding to make this technology in real life, its been hard for me to find a logical way that the protagonist of the story would've even ended up in that situation.

My solution is this: An "AI research company" working closely with a neurotechnology research company have a technological breakthrough and essentially choose a worker at random to be the test subject.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. While I'm writing it, the holes in the logic overwhelm any focus I can have on progressing the plot. Do 'AI research companies' even exist? Why would some random obscure small company have this huge scientific breakthrough rather than a far bigger one with more funding and resources? Why would they choose the protagonist specifically to test this? I'm not an AI researcher, so I have no idea how much logical sense my story makes and I'm not sure how this situation would occur naturally.

Do readers notice or question things like this? Obviously you're expected to suspend disbelief while reading NoSleep, and any other fiction, but surely this has some threshold? At what point does the context of a story being unrealistic affect the story?

I've been really into the sub for the last month-or-so after finding readings on youtube. I tried my hand at writing something for the sub, but I'm worried it's not very good. I feel like my foreshadowing turned into straight up giving it away, and the ending is way too open. Should I just post anyways? I dont really know what the community here is like, and I'm a little scared of being laughed off

In my opinion, calling Nosleep 'niche' is absurd. It really grinds my gears, because the word doesn't mean what you think it means. Nosleep is insanely popular and is the main attraction on Reddit for millions of readers, YouTubers and a household word that's as easily recognized as Reddit itself. It has more readers than the top five horror authors alive today combined - by over a million readers. What is this "it's niche" thing?

According to Webster's Dictionary:

niche (adjective)

1. denoting products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population(.)

Out of about 160 million readers (counting people reading at least one book every twelve months), Nosleep has 18 Million readers which is more than ten percent of the total possible reader economy. That makes it the third most popular single place to read on the planet, of all time.

For comparison: '18 million readers' is twenty times the number of total items checked out annually in the Library of Congress, and who would call that readership niche?

Obviously, Nosleep was niche, a very long time ago, like a decade ago. Calling it 'niche' at this point sounds ridiculous; y'all sound like Brent McHale still trying to act like he's child-star Baby Brent. It would be like McDonald's calling themselves 'family-owned', wouldn't it?

Hello everyone! I've been working hard at self-publishing a written compilation of my stories. It's scheduled to be released in January. I plan on doing a standard post about it here on its release date.

There's one very specific question I haven't really been able to figure out thus far. That is: should I delete the versions of my stories that I've previously posted to Reddit prior to the book's release date?

For context, I previously posted every story in the compilation to r/nosleep (most commonly), r/libraryofshadows or r/shortscarystories. Two thirds have appeared on podcasts and/or Youtube narrations. The versions in the book have all been cleaned up from the initial Reddit posts through several rounds of editing, but the general plot events are almost always the same (I only made big, substantive changes to 2 of the 25 stories in the book). I note, too, that the description on the back of the book and in the online postings for it is quite clear that it's a compilation of stories previously posted to Reddit, and the book itself lists past audio adaptations of the stories within it.

I'd like to keep up the original postings on Reddit, but I'm wondering if there are some red flags about that approach that I'm overlooking. I know that publishers generally require deleting the original Reddit posts, but I'm not sure what the implications are of doing this versus not doing this. Like, if I keep the Reddit versions up, is there some risk that people will post angry reviews that the same stories can be found online for free and, therefore, that people should avoid buying the book? Or is there some other concern I'm not thinking about?

I'm open-minded and would just appreciate people's thoughts on this, as I sense that I may be missing something. Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to provide feedback!

Hey, when did the 'Everything is true, even if it's not' rule disapearred? It seems like people still observe that, but I wondered if anyone had any info on this change?

Hello nosleep people.

I've never actually posted on the r/nosleep but I've been an avid reader on-and-off for a long time and wrote horror or atmospheric stories for myself and others for a while as well without sharing any on there. I've been playing around with a few ideas that I wanted to see on that subreddit for a few weeks but I'm a little confused as to what is and isn't doable. I've read the guidelines so I know that technically what I have in mind is allowed, but I also know that r/nosleep used to have certain rules that might go against what I want to write and I don't know if those rules have flat out changed or if they're just unspoken and, thus, not on the guidelines proper. Mainly the "true account from MC perspective" deal that seems to be the norm.

To be more specific: I had in mind a series (unlimited number) of stories, all different in the style of horror and so technically all standalones, but all recounted through the lens of a character working for an SCP-style organization or à là Magnus Archives, depending on what reference makes the most sense to you. Basically a character that researches and categorizes metaphysical phenomenon and recounts events that happened to others through their time working in that organization.

Example: a well that terrorized new tenants of the house and forced them to drown. the MC would give basic explanation and classification for the "anomaly" and then would share, let's say, a statement or journal entries written/given by one of the people who lived through the horrors from their POV, and then the post would end with some more notes on the case from the MC. So there would still be the "horror story told by the main character as a real event" type of beat as standalones stories but surrounded by bits and pieces of a larger universe/storyline that loosely ties each post together.

I'm simply wondering if it's something that would be allowed/welcome on r/nosleep or rather frowned upon? And, since I'm already here, if a new SCP/Magnus Archive style of narrative, with its own quirks of course, would be something that people might enjoy to see come to light or if they'd rather not? However I want to be clear that this is not a veiled attempt at selling this concept and self-promote myself in advance since, if I start sharing those stories, it'll be done on a different account with no link to this one whatsoever!

Thanks in advance for the insight!

Greetings NoSleep OOC,

As mentioned in an earlier post, Shadow Box Archives is a new horror-leaning story and art community on Patreon, featuring, among others, work by viral and notable NoSleep authors. We also have the doors open for sharing of stories and art by all in our chats, events, and Open Box post prompts.

The first two narrations dropped this week! "Homunculus Recipe" by thatreallyshortchick was narrated by Jordan Grupe and "What I've Always Been" by H.R. Welch was narrated by SomberReads. Thank you to the authors and narrators and the members who voted through likes.

Homunculus Recipe 🎙Narration🎙 | Patreon

What I've Always Been 🎙Narration🎙 | Patreon

Narrated Stories | Collection from Shadow Box Archives | 2 posts | Patreon

For narrations, we are selecting our top two highest liked featured stories from the previous month to be narrated, and featured stories by those two authors got the most likes for the month of October. We're letting our members decide with their likes which stories get narrated.

Narrations on Shadow Box Archives are early release, like featured posts, and will be available to the public seven days after posting. As previously mentioned, stories and artwork on SBA are free, with featured posts becoming free after seven days. Any profits from plus/premium audience-oriented perks go towards paying featured contributors and admins/moderators equally.

Shadow Box Podcast is also on the way! For fans of horror, creepypasta, true crime, and real paranormal, Shadow Box Podcast will take the listener down dark paths where fiction ends and reality begins. We're aiming to get the first episode out next month.

Gratefully,

RTI/Victor Sweetser

Lately I've been listening to a lot of horror stirues on YouTube and noticed a lot of there thumbnails look kinda like they were made with ai. Is there like a website or deviantart page.

The "deep web" is not the same thing as the dark web. I don't know how many stories I've seen where the author obviously means the latter but calls it the former, and it's just distracting and pulls you out of the story.

The deep web is just anything not indexed by search engines. Private forums and bank records are part of the "deep web."

The dark web is stuff you need Tor to access, illegal content, that kind of thing.

Hey, I've recently added a new features on StoryNote: listing narrations of NoSleep/Reddit stories, and the ability to find them easily!

Here is how it looks on the desktop version of the website: GIF

And on mobile: GIF

On a subreddit/author page, you just have to click the button "Only show posts with narrations", and you'll get only narrated posts in the results!

If you're a narrator and you are interested in being featured on StoryNote, you just need to send me a list/spreadsheet where each line is a link to a Reddit post and the link to the corresponding Youtube video of your narration separated by a comma.

At the moment, there are only 2 videos listed since I just created this feature, but I hope StoryNote can become a comprehensive hub for narrations also!

i was looking for good horror/mystery books, and thought who better to ask than my favorite story tellers? what are your favorites?

Funny enough my introduction to /nosleep was completely accidental, I used to watch a streamer called NoSleepTV and while looking for his reddit to get into a advice show he used to do I ended up ~there~ and haven't had a good nights sleep ever since. (2016) I would randomly get on and read stories from time to time but only in the past year have I been reading frequently. I really do wish I was active when some of my favorite stories I've stumbled upon were newly written, I haven't had a scenario where I've had to wait for the author to give a update on their post, I can't even imagine the suspense!

How did YOU get into creepypastas/nosleep? :)

( I tried to search for any post/topic about this, surprisingly I couldn't find any but if I missed it somehow please delete this and I'll know to search more thoroughly)

You wanted it, you asked for it, now you've got it — for the time being, r/nosleep is suspending some of its guidelines. Consider this an experiment; we'll see how it goes and whether it'll continue long term. Be aware that adjustments may have to be made as the experiment goes on, so check r/nosleepooc for information.

##IN BRIEF: WHAT THIS MEANS (THE BORING PART)

• r/nosleep still has Posting Guidelines which you need to carefully and thoroughly read before posting as they're your only warning. Failing to read and follow these revised guidelines is on you and will lead to subreddit bans. The revised guidelines include:

  • 24 Hour/1 Post Per Day | Audio, Image, Video | Codes and Puzzles | Discreet Links
  • Formatting | Identifying Information/Doxxing | Main Characters (Victimization) | Mental/Physical Health
  • Modmail, Removals and Reposts | Unacceptable Horror | Use of Intellectual Properties

• As always, you also have to abide by Reddit's Terms of Service and Reddiquette.

• If your post is removed, r/nosleep and r/nosleepauthors Mods won't offer in-depth explanations or help fixing your story. They also won't offer pre-post approval or in-depth reviews. Be sure to carefully and thoroughly read the revised Reposting Guidelines.

• If you're new to Reddit, you'll need to check the Beginner's Guide to Reddit for help.

• There won't be any more official r/nosleep events or contests.

• If you find your story has been plagiarised, contact Reddit directly.

##IN BRIEF: WHAT THIS MEANS (THE FUN PART)

• NO IMMERSION.

• NO PLAUSIBILITY.

• NO EVENT OR CONSEQUENCE.

• NO SCARED MAIN CHARACTER.

• Want to write in 3rd person omni? Go for it!

• Want to write in future tense? Go for it!

• Want to have your character trapped in a time loop but unable to remember that so they repeat the beginning of the story at the end? Go for it!

• Want to write that our reality is a simulation, or that the world ended, or that we've all been mind-wiped to forget important events? Go for it!

• Want to post stories that are mostly a list of rules or instructions for a ritual? Go for it!

• Want to post "It was all a dream" or "I had a bout of sleep paralysis" stories? Go for it!

• Want to post "I think I saw something scary but I'm not sure" stories with no in-story proof? Go for it!

• Want your main character to be a mouse or a scorpion or a jetski or a showerhead or a stove? Go for it!

• Want your main character to be at the bottom of the ocean or in space or in an alternate dimension with no possible way of posting to Reddit? Go for it!

We'll let you know if anything changes. Happy early holidays!

This is my idea:
A girl finds an old-looking book in the attic. She reads through the first page and decides that this is a good way to start an r nosleep post. The book is in 3rd perspective but is limited. The first chapter follows a man called 'Milan' who gets suddenly transported into what he thinks is a different dimension compared to reality, despite the appearance of said dimension being an oil tanker ship. He plans to escape, though he does not give the reader knowledge on why he would know how to escape such a place. The story slowly reveals how he is there, why he is there, and what horrors he faces, along with some person he also meets who has been there way longer than him.

Though I am not planning to outright tell the readers why it is in 3rd person and not 1st in all the way at the end of this story, the intention is to show that there was an actual greater force that produced this 'novel' based on what it had seen, felt and heard.

My question is: can I make a story about liminal space, or is that too unbelievable? The readers are not plunged into it immediately but it gradually becomes clear that it is in later parts/chapters. I hope this doesn't sound like an excuse, just want to include this; I am inspired by Left, Right Game, HOWEVER, my story is not an exact carbon copy, just similarities.

Hey ya'll. I recently discovered the Correspondence series and have gotten super into it. I'm a little confused on how abruptly the story stops. It seems like at the time the story had a huge following and it an interview posted here it seems like Bloodstains had much more to contribute and was getting into writing even more kinds of stories. That was 6 years ago and there doesn't seem to be any update with the story or the writer. I wanted to know if anyone had any info I missed or if this only adds to the mystery of it all?

Thanks!

Hi guys! I hope this is acceptable by the rules, if not mods I apologize!

I started writing on r/NoSleep in 2019, a bit before the pandemic, and in this community I found a reignited passion for literature and a modicum of success in my writing that has served to push me into attempting to take this thing as far as I can.

As a part of that, I recently entered a tournament, and long story short I actually managed to move on to round 2 of 3. The prize on the line is a significant sum of cash, and more importantly, a deal to continue writing with the company which would be a big break for me.

I’d appreciate if anyone who was able could make an account and vote here for “Empowered” in Tapas Action Fantasy Tournament and help me take this thing all the way!

https://www.creators.tapas.io/tapas-af-tourney

Would it be okay and normal for me to post a story to promote like my book or podcast? Basically like any media not on this platform but the story would still be on here too!

Doesn’t necessarily have to be no sleep related I’m working on a novel and I’m lucky enough to have a family member who works professionally in the field and really enjoys seeing “outsider” work. But I’m also working on a no sleep submission it would be fun to get feedback vice/versa.. see tropes and clunkiness I can’t.. etc.. Trust is huge deal so I could see why people would worry. Just wondering if this is a thing?

Hi All,

About two years ago, I started spending the majority of my free time writing stories to post here on NoSleep. Thanks to the encouragement of the community I found here, a creative block that had been haunting me for years disappeared, and I ended up writing dozens of stories and series in just a short time.

One of the most popular of these, The House That Eats the Dead, ended up winning the award for 2023's best series and attracted the attention of my now agent, Maria Brannan at Greyhound Literary, who has has exceeded all expectations as an editor and advocate.

I'm happy to announce today that I've expanded the series into a novel, which will be published in summer 2026 by...

1. Tor Nightfire in the UK. I'm so excited to join an amazing publisher whose books I've been enjoying for years! Details here!
2. Bantam in the US! It means the world to me to have such an amazing partner in my home market, and I can't wait to hold the book in my hands! Details here!

Without the community, the book would have never existed, and I'm filled with tremendous gratitude to the mods, fellow writers, and readers who created a space for this writer to play in. Special thanks need to go to u/GTripp14 who helped me learn the tricks of the trade when I was still struggling to get a single upvote and u/TheCusterWolf, whose generous efforts running contests and communicating the mod team's thoughts were instrumental in my development.

With gratitude,

scarymaxx

I just posted my second story and I'm still kinda on edge. I was kinda this way with my first but I feel I'm actually even more anxious the second time around for whatever reason.

I just have a fear of leaving stories dull and unfinished after hours and hours of work put into them. I guess I'm just nervous I didn't do enough.

I’ve seen the occasional theme or event recently but I was wondering if nosleep still hosts contests? I can only find archives of them from last year and before, Thank you!

Inspired by yesterday's post about whether current NoSleep rules are restrictive, I thought it would be worthwhile to actually discuss what rules are or are not working for you. Whatever your thoughts, let them rip, but please be civil and not just shout a list of demands at the moderators.

Is there one rule in particular that you loathe? Or one that you love? Are you happy with NoSleep in 2024 or worried it's lost some magic? If a very niche and not terribly powerful yet well-meaning genie granted you a wish to change NoSleep today, what would you wish for?

It's not the most realistic opinion but I'd love for NoSleep to at least try stripping away the OSHA manual of rules down to the marrow of what the subreddit has always been:--a virtual campfire to tell scary stories that could be real.

In that spirit, these would be my four NoSleep rules:

1. Posts must be stories. They need to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. That can be in one post or across a series.
2. The story can't be easily disproven. Remember that everything is real here, even when it isn't. If your story is about how all of the skyscrapers in Detroit came to life last night and are currently invading St. Louis, a quick Google Search reveals that's not true so that's not NoSleep.
3. The stories have to contain horror and should be scary. There's no metric for how scary they need to be but the intent to make readers shiver should be obvious.
4. Stories can be upsetting or unusual but not hateful or tasteless. There is a big, subjective border between art and awful so as much leeway as possible is given here but hate-speech and bigotry aren't tolerated (I think r/ShortScaryStories has a good model for this rule already worth copying).

And that's...pretty much it. Campfire, s'mores, undulating shadows under the trees behind you, tell us your ghost story/spooky encounter, would be my perfect NoSleep.

What about you?

https://youtu.be/lfmoK41YGDA?si=D8JGbGtbH8xfMM0x

Edit for context:

This is a video from the channel We Are Not Alive, this in particular discusses Nosleep or more particularly its rules and guidelines as well as the Magnus Archives and other examples of good horror writing that would never be accepted in Nosleep. As well as the nature of the amount of restrictions the subreddit has in regards to creative freedom and writer agency. For the most part this is in a negative light, and I have mixed opinions in regards to some of the issues brought up especially earlier on.

The reason I say mixed is because while I think there’s a certain point their arguments devolve into “this subreddit would be better if it wasn’t itself” which I don’t agree with. I also, as a fledgling writer who’s only previous experience with writing is in regards to WIP fanfiction, trying to get into or practice horror via nosleep in the past has felt overwhelming or that the story would not work because of some minor part of the plot breaking a rule and then falling apart to try and salvage the story. Which is why I have yet to make my first nosleep. But I also can say that some of the stories posted onto Nosleep really evoke that terror in me, so I obviously have a great fondness for the sub despite my own shortcomings.