/r/badlegaladvice

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When someone provides bad legal advice, relay it to us.

Any and all bad legal advice, commentary, interpretation, etc. is welcome.

From classics such as "Cops have to tell you the truth if you ask if they're a cop, or else it's entrapment," to "You can't tell me to shut up! I have free speech!" we will mock it all.

Badcademics Association Member

Some of our Cherished Doctrines

Another sub you may enjoy: ShittyAskALawyer


FOLLOW THESE SIMPLE RULES

Rule 0: The linked material has to involve bad legal advice or a misstatement of the law. It doesn't have to be an explicit misstatement of a particular law to be a misstatement of the law. A statement solely about what the law should be is not a statement of the law.

Rule 0a: The sub is for linking and analyzing badlegaladvice. It is not a vehicle for personal attacks against other users or people making badlegaladvice. Keep links and comments focused on discussing the badlegaladvice not personal attacks. Serious violations of this rule will result in content removal or potentially a ban.

Rule 1: No voting or commenting in linked threads. Thou shalt not vote in linked threads, and voting in linked threads shalt thou do not. Evidence of downvote or comment brigades will result in a warning, followed by deletion of the thread and/or ban for those involved.

Rule 1a: Although we can't physically restrain everyone from downvoting, please do your part to help prevent it, and ensure that all linked submissions use the non-participation format, i.e. 'np.reddit.com'.

Rule 2: Please remember to include a description of why the linked post is bad law. An explanation must be given within an hour that the post was made, otherwise it will be removed until an explanation is posted. Explanations are necessary even if the bad law seems obvious.

Rule 2a: If you link to an entire post you must point out more than one comment that is badlegal and give an explanation as to why those comments are badlegal. Simply linking to a post and saying "look at how bad all the comments are" is too lazy even for this sub.

Rule 3: Don't post links to your own internet arguments. This will be up to the mods' discretion. If you are engaged in a back and forth don't post it here. If you simply replied "no, that's wrong" you can still post it here. If you have any questions about whether a post is proper you can message the mods.

Rule 4: Internet comments are allowed as submissions only if they were posted on reddit or other forums. Do not link to the comment section of videos, articles, or similar pages.


Other, less horrible legal subs

/r/LegalNews

/r/legaladvice

/r/LegalAdviceUK

/r/law

/r/LawSchool


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/r/badlegaladvice

52,453 Subscribers

96

In most civil cases you can force the other side to pay for your fees

21 Comments
2024/09/30
21:53 UTC

47

Even if the contract says you must do something you can ignore it because it is rarely enforced.

Even if it requires it, that clause is rarely ever used. You only need to notify if you’re pursuing through your insurance.

https://np.reddit.com/r/Insurance/comments/1fhb7ac/someone_hit_my_car_and_admitted_liability_and/ln9afbh/?context=3

6 Comments
2024/09/15
15:31 UTC

35

Nobody knows what a qui tam claim is

19 Comments
2024/08/31
13:14 UTC

10

Harry the HIPAA hippo does not care about coroners reports

9 Comments
2024/08/08
23:52 UTC

128

Attorney-client privilege only applies to a lawyer when testifying as a witness in court. If a client confessed a murder to a lawyer then the lawyer is obligated to report the crime to the police or risk also committing a crime.

29 Comments
2024/08/05
13:44 UTC

162

Re McDonald's TOS arbitration clause: "It probably wouldn't even hold up in US court unless it's about getting your meal wrong. I learned this through filing small claims court against a computer manufacturer. They can't just wave a magic want and say everything must go through arbitration."

44 Comments
2024/08/01
18:18 UTC

246

"Tell them that you will attend the wedding if they put in writing NOW that you will inherit at least 50% in their wills, and that they need to add a codicil that this cannot be changed in the future (this is very important)."

23 Comments
2024/07/22
10:47 UTC

58

A criminal dismissal with prejudice can be appealed and overturned, leading to a second criminal trial

20 Comments
2024/07/13
06:44 UTC

38

AI is coming to destroy /r/programming

Once again something has stuck in my craw from r/programming that I must post here. It is my fault and mine alone that I gave up software engineering to go to law school, and now I must repent for my sins.

There has been a stack of lawsuits against AI companies alleging various issues (principally copyright infringement in the Sarah Silverman-involved suit you may have heard of). Much ink has been spilled; I won't re-spill it here.

Another suit targets OpenAI and Microsoft (GitHub) about copying code: Doe et al. v. GitHub, Inc. et al., No. 22-cv-06823 (N.D. Cal.). . A link to the order partially dismissing this case is here.

So, the comment that triggered all this: https://np.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1dzjt2d/comment/lcgqd20/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

To give credit to the author, this starts strong—especially when OLF clicks onto good criticisms of the plaintiff here—but falls apart halfway through. Onto the fisking:

For people who want actual information instead of garbage clickbait headlines:

Commendable in spirit; flawed in execution. Let's begin:

DMCA

A. Plaintiffs claim that copyrighted works do not need to be exact copies to be in violation of DMCA based on a non-binding court ruling. Judge disagrees and lists courts saying the contrary.

This seems like a screwup on the plaintiffs as it's 100% possible to get AI chat bots / code generators to spit out 1:1 code that can be thrown into a search engine to find its origin.

This is what I mean by starting off strong—the plaintiffs here repeatedly botched a pretty key part of asserting a DMCA 1202(b) claim: the copyright management information, much like the underlying copyright itself, must be a copy for you to make out a claim. I love this line by the judge:

Plaintiffs’ opposition spills much ink arguing that identicality is not an element of a Section 1202(b) claim. See ECF Nos. 234 at 12–16, 235 at 12–15. Having twice addressed this issue already, the Court will not revisit it at length.

Order at 4:17-19 (emphasis added).

*chef's kiss*

Anyway.

B.

they "do not explain how the tool makes it plausible that Copilot will in fact do so through its normal operation or how any such verbatim outputs are likely to be anything beyond short and common boilerplate functions.”

Nearly everything could be categorized as "short and common boilerplate functions". Unless you create some never heard before algorithm, you're code is free for the taking according to this judge. This is nearly an impossible standard.

...no. I don't want to go in too hard on OLF here, because this is a tricky area,^(1) but this is just not correct for three separate reasons.

First, the judge here is referring to the short phrase doctrine, which is a well known copyright doctrine dating back to 1899. See, e.g., Southco, Inc. v. Kanebridge Corp., 390 F.3d 276, 285 (3d Cir. 2004). Applying it—along with scènes à faire, merger, Baker v. Selden-style functional analysis—can be difficult, sure. But these aren't intractable standards, and once you think about why these doctrines are in place, it isn't that hard to step through the analysis and make some arguments. Will there be debate in each case? Of course, but that's what litigators are for.

Nearly everything could be categorized as "short and common boilerplate functions."

This is just wrong? If this were true, then there would be no software copyright—it isn't that hard to show that the program you wrote is (probably) more than just a short phrase, and thus copyrightable.

Second, this misses the actual flaw by the plaintiffs here, which they have not closed the logical link between their works and what Copilot will do. This is a fundamental flaw throughout all three versions of the complaint here, and it's wild to me that they botched this three times when the judge made it clear repeatedly that this flaw needed to be addressed. You have to show that you were harmed! Step 1 for copyright infringement/DMCA claims is to show you own a copyright, but Step 2—arguably the most important step—is to show that you were harmed. How did you not spell this out in the complaint beyond saying that "a user could conceivably view an identical match" to your work? Order at 5:18-19.

Third, and most fundamentally, this statement, to me, is evidence of the underlying misunderstanding by OLF here that pervades the entire comment. To wit:

Unless you create some never heard before algorithm, you're code is free for the taking according to this judge. This is nearly an impossible standard.

This is not what the judge said. But to skip to the larger point, OLF's biggest problem is that they do not seem to get that to make out any complaint in court, you have to show that you were specifically harmed (this is the idea of a "particularized" harm). The bulk of Plaintiffs' mistakes here are that they never upgraded their generalized grievance against Microsoft/OpenAI into a showing that they were harmed in a particularized way. Judge Tigar's ruling is aimed squarely at this issue—for these plaintiffs to have made out their claims, they needed to show the logical link that demonstrates their harms, and they couldn't do it, so they're out. He is definitely not saying that "[u]nless you create some never heard before algorithm, you're [sic] code is free for the taking . . . ."

^(1) Even the Supreme Court dodged this question in Oracle v. Google, skipping right over the copyrightability question to take up the fair use question [and botch it, but that's an argument opinion for another day].

C.

In addition, the Court is unpersuaded by Plaintiffs’ reliance on the Carlini Study. It bears United States District Court Northern District of California emphasis that the Carlini Study is not exclusively focused on Codex or Copilot, and it does not concern Plaintiffs’ works. That alone limits its applicability.

Most AI stuff works the same and has the same issues.

But again, for you to have a claim, it doesn't matter if these things happen in the abstract—you have to plead that the people you accuse have actually harmed you. The study is a general study of AI systems, and you still have to plead that your material was copied.

D.

Accordingly, Plaintiffs’ reliance on a Study that, at most, holds that Copilot may theoretically be prompted by a user to generate a match to someone else’s code is unpersuasive.

AI is sometimes unreliable, therefore is immune to scrutiny?

*sigh*

Not only is this not what the judge said (again), but also it's the same error (again)—to make out a claim, you have to show that you were actually harmed. As part of that, you have to close the logical links in the chain between the defendant's actions and your harm. That is what the judge is saying here. The judge is absolutely not saying generally that AI's unreliability dooms copyright/DMCA claims.

Unjust enrichment

A.

The Court agrees with GitHub that Plaintiffs’ breach of contract claims do not contain any allegations of mistake, fraud, coercion, or request. Accordingly, unjust enrichment damages are not available.

Failure on the plaintiffs again.

Hard to quibble here—it's just not in there, and California requires it absent an express contractual provision. Plaintiffs just missed this one.

B.

Put differently, the unjust enrichment measure of damages was explicitly written into the parties’ contract.

Previous court cases justifying unjust enchrichment onlt [sic] went through because there was a clause in the license("contract").

This is right until it's wrong. It isn't that unjust enrichment can only be found when there's an express contractual provision, but rather that it's your only saving grace if you can't show that there was a mistake, fraud, coercion, or request that would justify voiding or rescinding the contract, which is really what kicks off unjust enrichment as a damages theory. If you want equitable remedies (of which unjust enrichment and disgorgement of profits is one), then you have to tee them up properly.

C. Didn't defend a motion to dismiss, abandoning the claim

This doesn't say what the Plaintiffs "[d]idn't defend," which is that "Plaintiffs' opposition fails to address GitHub's motion to dismiss Plaintiffs' punitive damages claim." Order at 15:1-2. Just a total error on Plaintiffs' part here.

TL;DR: Not as dire as the article title makes it sound like but plaintiffs have garbage lawyers and California laws suck. Include unjust enrichment in your software licenses.

I agree that Plaintiffs' lawyers were not the greatest examples of lawyering. The DMCA is a federal law, but whatever—nobody seems to know the federal/state difference anymore. Do yourself a favor and hire a lawyer to write contracts for you, and if you really want to, ask them to include equitable remedies.

3 Comments
2024/07/11
18:00 UTC

150

If a landlord double rents a unit to two different tenants at the same time, the tenant who is told at the last minute he can't move in is limited to a refund and is entitled to no other breach of contract damages

37 Comments
2024/07/10
01:29 UTC

316

If you're arrested for having sex with a minor who showed you a fake ID, you can "counter sue for entrapment." (5000+ upvotes)

49 Comments
2024/06/30
21:27 UTC

153

A CA family law attorney comments and is heavily downvoted because it’s not as cut and dry as Reddit wants it to be.

45 Comments
2024/06/25
22:58 UTC

0

Nepotism in workplace

Hello! I was recently promoted to supervisor at a resort where I work. My lodging director told me a month ago that when the next manager was chosen that I would be selected. Shortly after that for whatever reason he went back on his word and now the senior lodging manager's sister is being eyed for the position. The main issue is that the senior lodging manager would get in screaming matches with her sister and cause everyone on our team to be shocked and disturbed in the past when she was a supervisor. It even happened in front of guests. I went to my lodging director and told him what was happening and it hasn't seemed to have changed his mind on promoting her. Their mother recently passed away which is terrible, but they got special treatment with extended time off that other team members don't get. I guess my point is, if her sister is promoted and I am not, could I potentially sue for nepotism? Thank you!

9 Comments
2024/06/15
08:09 UTC

87

ECtHR ruling on climate change, unsuprisingly, generates stupid takes on reddit.

1 Comment
2024/04/10
11:02 UTC

45

It's legal for anyone to put up signs regulating parking on public streets

25 Comments
2024/02/17
16:29 UTC

79

4th Amendment protections only exist if there's not a report of a missing kid somewhere

39 Comments
2024/02/16
15:39 UTC

56

Reddit doesn't understand what a dutch appeals court means by 'clear risk' but yet they are outraged

20 Comments
2024/02/15
14:46 UTC

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