I love the theme song for this podcast, does anyone else feel the same way?

Listened to the podcast recently and felt pretty sure Adnan was innocent but I’m now second guessing.

I am wondering if anyone had broken down the list of suspects and evidence against them to compare? Like from my perspective these are the possible suspects:

• Adnan with Jay’s help
• Jay alone
• Don because he’s the boyfriend
• The guy who found the body because he found the body
• A stranger or serial killer

We know Hae was definitely killed and at the approx time, and we know it was probably by one of the above people. So what is the evidence for each potential suspect and I guess what’s the motive also?

If anyone has already made a post like this I’m sorry, I can delete it if the mods ask. I’m just starting to feel like it couldn’t really have been anybody else but Adnan so I feel like I want to understand the alternate suspects better.

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A common refrain in these parts is that the detectives who investigated Adnan Syed were "dirty cops" who were caught fabricating evidence against suspects in other cases. Whenever this claim pops up, I push back against it by pointing out:

1. That it is supposedly based on unsubstantiated allegations against Detective Ritz in civil cases that were never adjudicated on the merits.
2. That none of the allegations in those cases bear even a passing resemblance to what Syed's supporters allege happened in his case.
3. That no such allegations were ever made against MacGillivary.

I've become somewhat tired of repeating myself on this, so I thought it might be helpful to compile and discuss all the information about these cases in one easily-referenced post. Please feel free to point me to any cases I may have missed or other information you would like me to add.

Origins of the Claim

The genesis of the idea that Ritz and MacGillivary have a history of framing suspects is a 2015 blog post by Susan Simpson entitled The Above Average Investigations of Detective Ritz and MacGillivary. Notably, Simpson's post doesn't actually describe any allegations of corruption or framing by either Detective Ritz or MacGillivary. Instead, Simpson recounts several civil cases in which Ritz himself, or the officers he supervised, were accused of shoddy police work. None of those cases actually involved MacGillivary and, as far as I'm aware, he was never so much as accused of misconduct.

This kind of Motte and Bailey fallacy is a hallmark of Simpson's writing about the Syed case. Rather than dirty her own hands by promoting an outlandish conspiracy theory, she will instead chum the waters with some innuendo and then trust her rabid audience to run it out into the uncharted deeps.

Another prominent example of this phenomenon was her 2015 blog post that kicked off all the suspicions about Don's timesheet. Few remember that, in that post, she was adamant that the post wasn't really about Don and that "Don was not involved in Hae’s murder." But she also knew that her audience would draw the exact opposite conclusion.

The Specific Cases

Simpson highlighted several cases involving Ritz. In the time since, those arguing on behalf of Syed have dug up others. An examination of the specifics of those cases is highly instructive.

Ezra Mable

The facts and procedural history of the Mable case are summarized in Est. of Bryant v. Baltimore Police Dep't, No. ELH-19-384, 2020 WL 6161708 (D. Md. Oct. 21, 2020). Mable was the primary case discussed in Susan Simpson's blog post.

Ezra Mable pled guilty to second-degree murder in 2002. Detective Ritz was the lead investigator on the case. In 2010, the Baltimore State's Attorney's Office joined Mable in moving for his release, which was granted.

In 2013, Mable filed a civil complaint against more than 20 defendants, including Detective Ritz and the Mayor and City Council of Baltimore. However, Mable never served the defendants with his complaint, and it was dismissed for lack of prosecution.

The Mable Complaint's specific allegations regarding Ritz are few and banal. As the U.S. District Court in the Bryant case put it:

Ritz was named as a defendant for his supervisory role in the investigation that lead to Mable's arrest. Compl. ¶ 71, ECF No. 1 in JKB-13-650. The complaint offers little in terms of conduct by Ritz himself, as opposed to his subordinates. In the complaint, Mable alleged that numerous police officer defendants, including Detective Ritz, conspired not to test DNA evidence and failed to properly investigate other evidence. Id. ¶¶ 74–84, 107–40. Mable also claimed that Ritz in particular failed to question a suspect. Id. ¶ 106. These allegations of misconduct are sufficiently similar to the allegations in this case such that they qualify as relevant. Having made that relevance finding, however, I note that none of Mable's allegations of misconduct by Ritz were proven. The case was dismissed for lack of prosecution after Mable failed to serve the defendants.

2020 WL 6161708, at *5 (emphasis added). In summary, Mable's complaint alleges, at most, that Ritz (and others) engaged in shoddy police work and had tunnel vision for a particular suspect. It does not allege that Ritz did anything to actively frame Mable.

Malcolm Bryant

The facts and procedural history of the Bryant case are, again, summarized in Est. of Bryant v. Baltimore Police Dep't, No. ELH-19-384, 2020 WL 6161708 (D. Md. Oct. 21, 2020). The Baltimore State's Attorney's Office cited Bryant in its motion to vacate Syed's conviction.

Bryant was wrongly convicted in the 1999 murder of Toni Bullock. In 2016, Bryant was exonerated based on post-conviction DNA testing. Unfortunately, Bryant died shortly after his exoneration. His Estate sued the Baltimore Police Department, Ritz, and other defendants civilly. In 2022, the City of Baltimore settled the claims for $8 million.

The Court summarized the Bryant Estate's specific allegations against Ritz as follows:

Plaintiffs claim that when “Detective Ritz met with [Ms. Powell] and another detective to create a composite sketch of the suspect, ... Detective Ritz used direct or indirect suggestion to manipulate the composite sketch to make it more closely resemble the person he suspected, Malcolm Bryant.” Id. ¶¶ 33, 35. Plaintiffs also claim “Detective Ritz showed Ms. Powell a suggestive photographic lineup consisting of six individuals, including Malcolm Bryant.” Id. ¶ 41. In addition to the alleged misconduct during Ms. Powell's interview, plaintiffs claim “Detective Ritz never interviewed or conducted any follow-up investigation regarding any of the individuals with whom Mr. Bryant had spent the evening of November 20th,” who could have provided an alibi for him. Id. ¶ 47. Detective Ritz also allegedly failed to investigate other evidence of Bryant's whereabouts on the night of the murder. Id. ¶¶ 48–52.Additionally, plaintiffs allege Detective Ritz did not disclose to Mr. Bryant, Mr. Bryant's counsel, or the prosecutor some of the evidence he obtained that incriminated another suspect, and he did not conduct proper interviews about or of the suspect. Id. ¶¶ 54–64.*2 Plaintiffs also allege the police received three 911 calls on the night of the murder, one of which was from a “potential eyewitness” whose “account of the crime ... contradicted Ms. Powell's account.” Id. ¶¶ 67–72. Plaintiffs claim Detective Ritz did not investigate this potential witness's report and “never disclosed the report of this second potential eyewitness” or the other 911 calls to Mr. Bryant, Mr. Bryant's counsel, or the prosecution. Id. ¶¶ 72–73. Plaintiffs also claim “the Defendants never tested critical items of evidence obtained from the crime scene for DNA,” which would have exonerated Mr. Bryant. Id. ¶¶ 74–80.

2020 WL 6161708, at *1–2. Again, these allegations describe, at most, shoddy police work and tunnel vision for a suspect, not any active attempt to frame the suspect.

Sabein Burgess

The facts and procedural history of the Burgess case are summarized in Burgess v. Goldstein, 997 F.3d 541 (4th Cir. 2021). The Burgess case, like the Mable case, was discussed in Susan Simpson's blog post.

Burgess was convicted of the 1994 murder of his then girlfriend, Michelle Dyson. In 1998, another man, Charles Dorsey, confessed to Dyson's murder. In 2013, Burgess successfully moved for vacatur of his conviction based on Dorsey's confession, new testimony from Dyson's son, and challenges to the gun residue evidence used in Burgess's trial. The State declined to retry Burgess and issued a nolle prosequi.

In 2015, Burgess sued the Baltimore Police Department, numerous police officers (including Detective Ritz), the Baltimore City Council, and the Mayor of Baltimore. The claims against Ritz and most of the other defendants were dismissed from the case. The claims against a single defendant, Detective Alan Goldstein, proceeded to trial, where Burgess was awarded a $15 million verdict.

Burgess's civil complaint contains only one specific allegation regarding Detective Ritz: that he interviewed Dorsey and improperly concluded that Dorsey lacked credibility. Paras. 41-42. There are no allegations that Ritz fabricated any evidence, coerced any witnesses, altered any investigatory records, or engaged in any other misconduct.

Brian Cooper

The facts and procedural history of the Cooper case are summarized in Cooper v. State, 163 Md. App. 70 (2005) and Cooper v. Foxwell, No. CV DKC-10-224, 2019 WL 6173395, at *1 (D. Md. Nov. 20, 2019) . The Baltimore State's Attorney's Office cited Cooper in its motion to vacate Syed's conviction.

Cooper was convicted of first degree murder in the stabbing death of Elliot Smith. On appeal, Cooper's conviction was overturned due to a failure by Detective Ritz to properly Mirandize Cooper before obtaining inculpatory admissions from him. Specifically, Ritz had used a "two-step" interrogation technique, where he Mirandized Cooper only after 90 minutes of interrogation in which Cooper had already made damaging admissions.

Cooper was retried and convicted of first degree murder in 2006.

This case presents no allegations that Ritz fabricated any evidence, coerced any witnesses, altered any investigatory records, or engaged in any other misconduct other than failing to properly Mirandize a suspect.

The Dissimilarity of the Above Allegations from what Syed Supporters Claim in this Case

Here, Syed supports variously claim that the police: (1) fabricated the sequence of events leading them to Jenn and Jay, respectively; (2) leveraged the existence of a secret drug bust to coerce false confessions from Jenn and Jay and then buried all evidence of the existence of this bust; (3) deliberately fed Jay the information needed to substantiate his false confession; (4) sat on key evidence (e.g. Hae's car) so it could later be used as false corroboration for Jay's account; and (5) made secret and undocumented promises of leniency to Jay that were later honored by prosecutors and a judge.

None of the civil cases discussed above alleged anything remotely like that. No secret deals. No coerced confessions. No fabricated evidence or police records. No hiding the existence of other charges. No deliberate feeding of information to witnesses. Instead, the civil cases against Ritz mostly just allege that he had it out for the plaintiff and didn't do a very good job of policing as a result.

Addressing the Various Arguments Made By Syed's supporters

Doesn't the fact that several suspects investigated by Ritz were later exonerated prove he was corrupt?

No. The mere fact that someone was wrongly convicted, in and of itself, does not mean that the police, let alone a specific investigating officer, did anything wrong. Sadly, wrongful convictions can happen for any number of reasons (e.g. mistaken or false identifications by witnesses, false confessions, prosecutorial misconduct, jury error, etc.).

Furthermore, none of the above individuals were exonerated based on any finding of police misconduct by Ritz or anyone else. Bryant was exonerated based on post-trial DNA analysis that proved him innocent. Burgess was exonerated based on new evidence, including a confession from an alternative suspect. Cooper wasn't exonerated at all (he was convicted on retrial).

Doesn't the fact that some of the civil complaints against Ritz survived a motion to dismiss mean the allegations were meritorious?

No. A motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim tests whether the allegations, if true, would entitle the plaintiff to relief, not whether the allegations actually are true or supported by evidence. Indeed, in deciding a motion to dismiss, the court generally will assume all well-pleaded allegations in the complaint are true, and will not accept supporting or contrary evidence from either side.

Doesn't the fact that the City of Baltimore paid millions to settle some of these cases prove the merit of the allegations?

No. Approximately 97% of civil cases settle, and it isn't because they are all meritorious. Litigation is costly and inherently risky for both sides. A settlement is a compromise between the parties, made to mutually avoid these costs and risks. In almost all cases, a settlement involves the defendant paying more than he says he owes, and the plaintiff taking less than he says he's owed. A defendant agreeing to pay a settlement isn't an admission that the case was meritorious any more than a plaintiff agreeing to take a settlement would be an admission that the case wasn't meritorious.

For this reason, the Rules of Evidence actually preclude the existence of a settlement being admitted to prove, one way or the other, the merits of the allegations. See, e.g., Fed. R. Evid. 408; Md. R. Evid. 5-408.

Furthermore, the above cases were all brought against numerous defendants including, in some cases, the entire BPD, the City of Baltimore, the Mayor, the City Council, etc. Thus, even if one were inclined to believe that the City wouldn't pay a monetary settlement unless it believed the allegations were true, one would still need to establish that it was the specific allegations against Ritz in particular, as opposed to one or more of the other defendants.

Haven't you seen the Wire and We Own This City?

Of course. No one disputes the existence of police corruption, in Baltimore or anywhere else. But even those fantastic TV shows (one fictional) don't depict any police tactics remotely similar to what Syed supporters claim happened in his case.

Indeed, the Gun Trace Task Force that is the subject of We Own This City is famous precisely because it was so uncommonly corrupt, even by Baltimore standards. But they didn't do anything like what Syed supporters say the police did in his case. Someone will have to explain to me what the GTTF stealing from drug dealers or planting drugs or weapons on suspects has to do with, for example, what Syed supporters claim happened with Jay Wilds.

This argument also proves too much. If the mere existence of corruption in BPD means we must assume all the evidence against Syed if fabricated, wouldn't that logic also apply to everyone else ever investigated by BPD? Why is it Syed who uniquely gets the benefit of these conspiracy theories?

https://wtop.com/maryland/2024/08/attorney-representing-victims-family-in-adnan-syed-case-reacts-to-reinstatement-of-murder-conviction/

Does anyone know if these are actually new? The last three episodes of S-Town are appearing as updated this year.

Thanks!

The Weekly Discussion thread is a place to discuss random thoughts, off-topic content, topics that aren't allowed as full post submissions, etc.

This thread is not a free-for-all. Sub rules and Reddit Content Policy still apply.

There's a long list of police who are not permitted to testify in court because their opinions are not credible and may give grounds for a mistrial.

Asking for a friend 👀

I've listened to a couple of things recently from Rabia Chaudry that really make me question her credibility, so I want to listen to Adnan's story again with an open mind (I used to think that for sure he was innocent). A lot has happened since Adnan's season of Serial - do any forensic developments since it was released come to mind that I should consider while embarking on this endeavor? For example, I know some stuff was done to check into Lenscrafters' time clock tech that pretty much clears up questions I had about Don.

https://www.vox.com/scotus/377151/supreme-court-richard-glossip-oklahoma-death-penalty

I find it interesting that the SC may be considering this and wondering if the details will have any weight on Adnan’s case,

I also thought it’s interesting that there is a court-appointed lawyer defending the verdict while in Maryland there isn’t one, just Lee’s brother?

Adnan upstaged him by giving Jay’s girlfriend a birthday present. Then let Jay borrow his car to get her a present too. Jay took revenge in anger and made up the whole story.

Did Jay get a present for his girlfriend after all?

The Weekly Discussion thread is a place to discuss random thoughts, off-topic content, topics that aren't allowed as full post submissions, etc.

This thread is not a free-for-all. Sub rules and Reddit Content Policy still apply.

Per the Enehy report, which describes a gift Adnan once gave Hae as a 'veil', but which Rabia describes only as a 'scarf'. Was it a head scarf then, as opposed to like a winter scarf?

Searched sub but couldn't find any clarification on this.

I felt like he should be more excited but he was cautious. Is that because he was worried that she would deny her earlier alibi of him at the library?

No one in my life listens or would care about this thought so I figured I’d share it here.

For anyone who is a fan of This American Life may remember the episode where she talks to her mom about The 7 Things You’re Not Supposed to Talk About and one of them is route talk. No one cares about how you got to the dinner party. I’ve always liked that she named an entire episode Route Talk. I wonder what her mom thought.

I just finished listening to the prosecutors podcast, which made me feel much more convinced that Adnan did do it, although I do feel like they left out explanations for certain things. I would really like an explanation of the tightness of the timeline and whether it would really be possible to go to all those places and do everything that Adnan did in that short timeline. They also mentioned a rose being found in his car with add-on fingerprints on the flower paper around it. Is there any supporting evidence for this being true, and it being a new flower?

I’m also listening to truth and Justice for another perspective but to be honest everything Bob Ruff is saying is making me think even more that it is Adan. For example, he has Krista to come on and even though she says she thinks Adnan is innocent. She also says that she’s sure he asked for a ride that morning and that they were still friends. To me that signals even more that Adnan had not moved on and they were still entwined. and Laura and Jim Clemente are used to show that Jay’s testimony is a lie, but there’s never really any question that he’s lying. And the course of their commentary on it, they say that the crime seems criminally unsophisticated crime of passion probably after an argument. Definitely points to Adnan.

The police work does seem shoddy but it seems like this is a very circumstantial case kind of Like the Scott Peterson one where the only thing that makes sense is that it was Adnan.

Since we can't have a discussion in the thread about the death penalty. I am trying to understand the motives. If you are making up being involved in a murder that you weren't involved in, how is the incentive of going to prison for life better than the incentive for death. Why be OK with life for something you made up? If there was any incentive pushed by the cops, it would be death penalty for assaulting a police officer.

It was Undisclosed who made up the idea of tge death penalty to try and think of a reason for Jay to make up a story

A few days ago I was discussing with another poster about the international news coverage of HML's murder prior to the airing of Serial in 2014. Having looked into the domestic coverage a few years ago I was a bit doubtful it was covered outside of Maryland prior to Serial, but I was curious enough to take a look.

I double-checked the domestic coverage and found the first mention of Hae Min Lee in the Baltimore Sun on Feb 4, 1999. The first mention of Adnan Syed was in The Capital an Annapolis, Maryland paper on March 1, 1999. Outside of Maryland I couldn't find any mention of AS or HML prior to Serial airing.

I'm in the US so I'm not too familiar with UK papers but I did a detailed search of The Evening Standard and The Independent. I think both of these are London papers. As expected, I didn't find any mention of the murder prior to Serial. I also ran keyword searches against the other UK papers with no results, but I didn't look into any of those in any detail.

I have to say, it was really interesting reading the UK coverage having only really read domestic coverage. I collected all the articles from both papers in case anyone wants to read them. I also have access to The Guardian's archives. They had a good amount of coverage as well. I can collect those if anyone is interested in reading them.

The Evening Standard

Monday, November 10, 2014
Londoners are hooked on a plot you won’t see on TV or in a book - its a podcast involving a Serial thriller
Page 1 | Page 2

Friday, September 4, 2015
Stranger than Fiction: True Crime dramas are having a moment but at what cost? As millions of us become armchair detectives, Richard Godwin reports on the real-life consequences of our voyeuristic new obsession. 
Page 1 | Page 2

Friday, July 1, 2016
High School ‘killer’ wins retrial in case made famous by Serial podcast
https://imgur.com/a/mkayob9

Monday April 1, 2019
Shining a fresh light on an infamous murder
https://imgur.com/a/FC7hHhH

Tursday, December 5, 2019
The woman who inspired Serial: Rabia Chaudry kickstarted the true-crime boom. Amelia Heathman hears her story. 
https://imgur.com/a/zNIcMfD

Wednesday, April 22, 2020
‘People like stories’ — Ira Glass on his podcast empire. 
https://imgur.com/a/8qdTqfT

Tuesday, September 20, 2022
Man who inspired Serial podcast walks free from prison for trial review
https://imgur.com/a/DuXfqAa

The Independent

Friday, November 14, 2014
Radio Gaga: A weekly US podcast based on a real life murder is the latest cult programme to attract record audiences. Sarah Hughes explores whether binge listening has replaced the TV boxset.
https://imgur.com/a/pM6CiR3

Thursday, November 20, 2014
Real-life murder case is more addictive than ‘Breaking Bad’
https://imgur.com/a/EXfcSUP

Sunday, December 7, 2014
The ‘Serial’ podcasts about Hae Min Lee and her ex-boyfriend Adnan Syed who is currently serving a sentence for her murder will begin on Radio 4 Extras this evening
https://imgur.com/a/rnSyA1O

Friday, December 19, 2014
‘Serial’ ends and justice turns out to be deaf
Page 1 | Page 2 | Page 3

Monday, February 9, 2015
‘Serial’ podcast killer granted new trial
https://imgur.com/a/AXxZLoe

Thursday, May 21, 2015
‘Serial’ gripped us but this retread is biased and dreary - Undisclosed
https://imgur.com/a/NCqKdgO

Thursday, August 27, 2015
Document casts doubt on ‘Serial’ convict’s guilt, lawyer says
https://imgur.com/a/shG56VY

Saturday, December 5, 2015
Unsolved murder of private eye to become Britain’s ‘Serial’
https://imgur.com/a/hYG346L

Sunday, January 10, 2016
True crime makes a false witness of us all
https://imgur.com/a/VkvICzf

Saturday, February 25, 2023
Writer and producer Jemima Khan talks to Jessie Thompson
https://imgur.com/a/ToUrdEk

I have tagged this post as an information request, so no commentary is permitted.
Please direct me to the evidence that supports this statement.

Hi all, did Adnan (or their friends who witnessed the ride request) ever comment on where he wanted Hae to take him after school when he asked her for a lift the morning of January 13th?

Obviously he eventually changed his story and claimed he wouldn’t have asked her for a lift, but he did initially admit he did ask her but said she “got sick of waiting and must have left”. I’m wondering if police ever pushed him to explain where he actually wanted to go, seeming he needed to be back at school for track practice? Or did that never happen because he then switched to saying he never asked her?

I’m sorry if this is documented somewhere but I can’t find info on it and can’t remember if I ever read anything about it.

Wanted to get this crowd's opinion on a similar but different case that took place in same area as Adnan.

This is the case of Travis Elleby. In short Travis was accused and convicted of the murder of his gf.

NO BODY was ever found. Therefore no direct evidence was ever found to link Travis to the murder (ie DNA, fingerprints, murder weapon).

Travis was convicted based on circumstantial evidence. Travis was the last person to see his gf, and told a ton of lies about their last encounter.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/baltimore/news/boyfriend-charged-with-murder-of-woman-whose-body-was-never-recovered/

https://www.wmar2news.com/marylandmysteries/missing-in-maryland-cherice-ragins-disappeared-at-the-age-of-24-in-february-2010

https://casetext.com/case/elleby-v-state-1

By that I mean a podcast that is in no way cooperating or in any contact whatsoever with Rabia and her team. We’ve recently seen podcasts like Crime Weekly and Prosecutors Podcast have long series where they get into the evidence in depth, and they came to the conclusion that Adnan is in fact guilty of the crime. Are there any counterparts of long series made with conclusions of Adnan being innocent? If so I would love to hear their breakdown. For obvious reasons I only want independent podcasts.

Thank you.

Does anyone else think it was odd that the police used Hae’s curling iron to get her scent? Wouldn’t it be better to use, say something like a pillow case or bed sheet that has fibres that would hold more scent?

The Weekly Discussion thread is a place to discuss random thoughts, off-topic content, topics that aren't allowed as full post submissions, etc.

This thread is not a free-for-all. Sub rules and Reddit Content Policy still apply.

This post prompted me to review the ACM opinion, the SCM orders on motions to stay, and the SCM opinion.

On March 28, 2023, the ACM issued their opinion which stated, "Therefore, we vacate the circuit court's order vacating Mr. Syed's convictions and sentence, which results in the reinstatement of the original convictions and sentence (...) We will exercise our discretion to stay the effective date of the mandate for 60 days from the issuance of this opinion. That gives the parties time to assess how to proceed in response to this Court’s decision."

On May 25, 2023, the SCM granted the Unopposed Motion to Stay Issuance of Appellate Court's Mandate, "pending the resolution of the petition for writ of certiorari." On June 8, the SCM extended the stay "until further order of the Court."

The further order of the Court occurred on August 30, 2024, when SCM released their opinion stating "That remedy is to reinstate Mr. Syed’s convictions and to remand the case to the circuit court for further proceedings relating to the Vacatur Motion, consistent with this opinion." Footnote 48 states, "Although the effect of this opinion is to affirm the Appellate Court’s decision to reinstate Mr. Syed’s convictions pending further proceedings on the Vacatur Motion, we shall order no change to Mr. Syed’s conditions of release."