/r/realtantra
Realtantra is intended to be a place for thoughtful discussion about the historical origins of tantra, primarily in the period 500-1400 CE. We also welcome discussions about the practices and beliefs of the principal tantric schools and traditions that exist today.
Questions about the secular (non-religious) forms of "tantric sex," "tantric massage," "tantric orgasms," and similar topics should be redirected to r/tantricsex. Questions about spiritual tantra should be redirected to r/tantra.
RealTantra
This sub is intended to be a place for thoughtful discussion about the historical origins of tantra and about the practices and beliefs of the principal tantric schools and traditions that exist today. We urge users to share their thoughts, experiences, and resources.
Links to papers and websites and crossposts to other subs are welcome as long as they are accompanied by some discussion. For this reason, we will not allow crossposts or direct links in the title of your post. Instead, please provide a descriptive title and put the link itself in the body of your post, with a description (brief or long) of why others might find it interesting.
"New Age" neotantric groups
The mods will use their judgment on posts and comments from people aligned with "neotantric" groups. In one sense, all existing schools of tantra are revivals or modern adaptations of tantric traditions, so they are all "neotantric." Just because a branch of tantra has been Westernized and modernized does not mean that it is invalid.
However, many "New Age" groups are little more than spiritual cults and wannabe gurus on the make. They typically have little or no connection with traditional tantra and their philosophies are incoherent, a fuzzy mishmash of Theosophy, German Romantic occultism, Esalen Institute, feel-good bromides, and almost random fragments of mostly non-tantric Hindu, Buddhist, Zen, and Daoist ideas.
In many cases, there doesn't seem to be any reason for them to be using the word "tantra" other than as a marketing tool. Although it is hard to draw a clear line between faux-tantra and the real thing, the users of this sub feel confident that they know a counterfeit when they see it.
"Tantric Sex"
Many of these random cults and fringe groups claim to be "tantric" because the public associates the term with sex, and sex sells. Thus, the billion-dollar business of "tantric" workshops and retreats, and the endless series of charges about sexual abuse from tantric gurus and instructors.
There are three main categories of groups claiming to practice tantric sex:
The "New Age" people who are "tantric in name only" and all the other hustlers, scammers, and abusers. As noted, they are not allowed to post here.
The people who are practicing a completely secular, non-spiritual version of extended sex. These people call it "tantric sex" for historical reasons only, and they do not claim to practice this kind of sex as part of a larger spiritual or religious context of any kind. We ask these people to post in r/tantricsex, not here.
People who practice – or are interested in practicing – "sacred sex" as part of a tantric spiritual tradition. We ask these people to post "how to do it" questions about sexual technique to r/tantricsex, and to post on r/tantra when they have questions or comments about the spiritual side of their practice, and how the two fit together.
No spam, trolling, self-promotion, intolerance, and abuse
We do not accept posts from massage parlors, or from cults and scammers using "tantric sex" as a lure to attract customers and/or victims.
Posts and comments will be removed if they are judged by the mods to be overly commercial or self-promoting. As long as you participate in this sub in a constructive way, you are welcome to announce your latest blog posts or other publications. But if you are not a member in good standing and the links you post lead to commercial websites or videos, don't be surprised if they get taken down.
We also have, and will enforce, a sub policy of tolerance and non-dogmatism. For more than 1600 years, traditional tantra changed, evolved, splintered, mutated, and was reformed and reinvented as it spread across Asia and now the West. Every scholar emphasizes the tremendous diversity inherent in tantra. Any neat, simple definition of tantra is a lie.
When you are on this sub, we ask you to respect that diversity and to respect other participants who practice a different kind of tantra. You can say, "I believe that X is true" or "In my tradition we believe that X is true." You can't say, "This is the truth, it's the only valid answer, and if you disagree with me, you are stupid, wrong, and completely nontantric."
Trolling, abuse, and general assholery will get you banned. If you are attacked, or you encounter abuse, please keep your temper and do not respond in kind. Use the report button instead. Be patient and let the mods sort it out. You may feel completely justified in flaming back at someone, but flamewars drive people away from a sub, including the lurkers who would otherwise have a good chance of participating in the future.
Along those lines, please DO NOT use the downvote button to signal disagreement. The experience on Reddit is that downvoting destroys the sense of community, especially on small subs. You absolutely should upvote to reward a good, thoughtful post or comment. But if you disagree with something, take a moment to explain why. Or just move on.
/r/realtantra
As a wife and mom of six, life can often feel like a whirlwind, leaving little time for the personal and spiritual things I wish I could pour into more. This even includes intimacy. With so much on our plates, my husband and I have found that, over the years, intimacy has sometimes become rushed, and I’ve noticed that I’ve grown more insecure with myself and a bit bored with the day-to-day expectations of life. When it comes to being intimate, it often feels like something is missing — that deeper intensity and passion that I crave. I also rarely climax.
But there was one time that our intimacy felt different — incredibly powerful. After I climaxed (which I haven't done for years), the lights in our home began to flicker. At first, I brushed it off, thinking there must be an outage or something, but there was no storm and no reports of anything unusual. And this wasn’t just one room — my kids even noticed it happening throughout the whole house. We checked the bulbs, and everything was fine. It’s never happened before or since.
Now, I can’t shake the feeling that this experience might have been connected to some sort of energetic or spiritual release. I’ve always had the sense that there’s more to my energy, and I wonder if it’s being stifled in my daily life. Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I’m curious if this kind of intense release could be a sign of something deeper spiritually.
I am a sadhaka in the space of tantra and I have been practicing for a few years now. Although I have come to a point in my sadhana, that requires Sadhika for further progress. As, Bhairava (Shiva) and Bhairavi (Shakti) grow together, so would we with yoga and kriyas. It is under the guidance of a Siddha Guru.
DM me for details. I'm based in Bombay and Himalayas.
I'm actively looking for a Shabar Guru. In he due course, I came across certain websites which claim that Shabar Diksha needs to be taken only once, and, post that, one can do activation and prayoga of multiple Mantra-s, without needing to go to Guru again and again for diksha of every mantra and prayoga individually.
How correct is this notion?
There seems to be a lot to tantra - everything from the ordinary devi puja to somethings like Aghori practice and Kaula tantra. So how does one classify or branch these with their differences and connections?
Title says it all. Is anybody aware of any other Sampradaya-s that use Shabar Mantra-s? As both siddhi as well as/or direct application( prayoga)?
So today i tried something and im a bit worried somethings wrong, i got myself to climax but instead of releasing i tensed up the muscle like if you where trying to hold in pee, and started doing the ham-sah, breath work and i had no release, instead i got this strong tingle midway up my spine and convusled a little like i had to shake it was soo sensitive like chills, what did i do am i going to be ok? Edit im a man mid 20s
today our modern medical system tries everything in its power to sell us medicines and only provide temporary solutions for our health problems. I was just wondering if there is a way that isn't thought to us on how we can accelerate healing for chronic, or, according to conventional doctors, non-curable, stubborn diseases.
i could imagine that there is some sort of knowledge within the tantric community that can help regarding this, but has been suppressed by the modern world.
hope to hear you guys thoughts : - )
I was watching a video about tantra. so that lady was talking about the sadhana that shadak will be excited at the start but as time passes they get distracted.but then she mentioned about how the deity you are worshipping doesnt want you to worship other deity and just focus on the current deity you are worshipping. Is this true?
For complete beginners, without a guru. What would you recommend i read ? I dont understand sanskrit, preferably in english. Thank you!
Note: this is a repost from r/Tantra
Yogapedia describes Shaktipat as follows:
Shaktipat is viewed as an act of grace provided by a guru or divine being to someone else. It is divided into a number of different levels, according to the intensity of the transfer and where the recipient is on the path to liberation. The highest intensity is tivra-tivra-shaktipat, which translates to “super supreme grace*."*
Shaktipat can generally only be received after a long period of discipline and spiritual questioning. The disciple must be ready in order to receive it, so the giver must remove the intangible obstacles in their path toward enlightenment.
When practicing yoga with a mentor for spiritual purposes, it is possible that the teacher may engage in shakti-pata at a very advanced stage of instruction in order to deepen the student's progress and understanding.
So, Shaktipat can actually happen two ways:
- By the grace of the Guru
- By the grace of the Deity
The latter way is usually referred to as Maha Shaktipat, signifying the intensity of the experience, since by direct transfer of energy (shakti) from the deity to the devotee, an almost instantaneous experience of Nirvikalpa Samadhi can be had, without the usual lifetimes of cultivation that would normally need to take place.
In both cases, substantial preparation and cultivation must already be in place, Shaktipat can only be given to someone who is ready and ripe for it. A person with zero spiritual inclination would see very little benefit from it. Generally, it is given to those that are already undergoing some manner of Kundalini process and have gotten past the early stages.
The intensity of Shaktipat is dependent on both the giver and the receiver, but the main factor is the giver's personal power (shakti). Even many gurus and teachers have a limited amount of shakti, so there's not that much they can share with their students. However, even small amounts can help the student progress to the next stage of their spiritual development.
When a deity gives Shaktipat, it is a lot more intense and powerful. They take on the karma of the devotee and transmit their own shakti to them. This shakti is the same as their tejas, it is the non-dual light of satchitananda, that makes them shine (which is what Deva means, it can be translated as shining one). In practical terms, tejas manifests as liquid light, it is incredibly intense.
A deity will typically connect (put their hands on) a chakra that is blocked or can provide easy access to the energetic system of the devotee, such as the heart chakra, if the Vishnu Granthi needs to be overcome, which is an energetic knot located in the middle of the chest.
The deity will place their hand or hands on the desired chakra and transmit their shakti or tejas through it. This will cause the subtle body of the devotee to be flooded with liquid light. This light is fiery and it burns up past karma, samskaras and gunas, liberating the devotee. It also clears all blocks in the subtle body, since the liquid light acts as a pressure washer, it clears all nadis and chakras of the energetic muck that has accumulated over many lifetimes.
This process is not unique to Hinduism, there are references to it in many other religions. Usually it is called anointment by a deity. In Sumerian religion, Melammu (Tejas) was passed on from the deity to the king, thus anointing him to the office. A similar process took place in Egypt with the pharaohs, who were also anointed by their chief deity. Even today, the process of coronation (symbolic of the opening of the crown chakra) involves a symbolic anointment by the high priest or bishop.
In Christianity, this may be referred to as baptism by fire and the Greek word Christos, from which Christ comes from, means anointed one, again referring to the same process of anointment by a deity.
Would this book be an accurate picture of what Tantra was like during the 500-900 period? There's an English translation available here on Amazon.
Did Kaula tantra include an emphasis upon the importance on consciousness and the remembrance of one's divine nature that keeps getting forgotten?
Has anyone had experiences with the Cobra Breath practice? I have found it to be a powerful practice in expanding my spiritual awareness rapidly. Hoping some others out there have some similar experiences to share. I learned under the lineage of Sunyata Saraswati, via Jeff Boehme. Sharing one of his videos here in the spirit of conversation.
I am a Shaivite, living in India. Any Guru in India who can initiate me into Shaivachara or Vedachara.
Online Guru who could initiate me and regularly guide me is also good enough...
Note: This is translated from a French discussion of the mithunas (erotic temple carvings) found in the tantric temples constructed in the medieval Orissan style in the 10th and 11th centuries AD. The article describes the geometric yantra that is inscribed underneath – and is hidden by – the carved erotic scenes:
THE KAMAKALA YANTRA: SACRED GEOMETRY UNDER EROTICISM
by RAPHAËL VAUBOURDOLLE, NOVEMBER 11, 2020
Mithunas [carved erotic temple images] already existed before the Christian era, apparently unrelated to the yantras [mystical diagrams], but they are very few in number compared to the 10th and 11th centuries AD [when many tantric temples were built in the Orissan style].
A real importance is given to them with the appearance of tantrism in Hinduism from the sixth century. The latter places desire, the pursuit of pleasure (kama) at the origin of everything, in a way rejecting Vedism and thus opposing Brahmanism, which is more focused on self-denial and avoidance of pleasure. Kama [love/desire/passion/pleasure] is therefore for the tantrikas (practitioners of tantrism) a legitimate goal of life...
This was implemented through sexualized rituals, with a centrality of sexual fluids. Also, the semen mixed with female secretions (rajas) would give a nectar of immortality (amrita) and is sometimes ingested by the followers to refocus their cakras, which would be linked to the act of fellatio (vajroli mudra)...
But the mithunas in all this? As Ramacandra, the great temple architect of that time, tells us very well, these are representations of sexual acts hiding in truth a much deeper message: a yantra or mystical diagram known as the Kamakala that was literally hidden under the erotic painting. It is as much about the revelation of a truth as a visual support for meditation, often associated with a mantra which is the vocal support.
First used in Hinduism, this yantra then passed into Buddhism and other Asian religions. Composed exclusively of geometric shapes, it is reminiscent of mandalas (ritual diagrams filled with symbols of Hinduism and also widely used as supports for meditation in Buddhism).
Each of the Kamakala's component forms and each of its points are associated with concepts and deities known to the initiate. The mediation of the latter consists in seizing the force, the energy by looking at the yantra, often hidden by a more banal representation so that the uninitiated do not perceive its content.
However, let's come back to our Lakśmana temple in Kanjuraho. The mithunas that take place there therefore hide a particular yantra, the Kamakala yantra:
http://louvrboite.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Kamakala-yantra-1.png
You can see below that it overlaps rather well with the mithunas shown in the Indian courts concerning Khanjuraho, as much as that of the Viśnuite temple of Lakśmana than that of the śivaite temple of Kandariya Mahadeva:
Mithuna of the temple of Lakshmana in Khajuraho
Mithuna of the temple of Kandariya Mahadeva in Khajuraho
What is the meaning of this diagram? We would not know the answer, as the uninitiated, if an architect of the 11th century Oriśa, Ramacandra, had not revealed it in an architectural manual intended for tantrikas: the Silpa Prakasa, which has been translated into English by Alice Boner and Sadasiva Rath Sarma in their book Silpa Prakasa: Medieval Orissan Sanskrit Text on Temple Architecture.
Here is the extract from the Silpa Prakasa relating to the Kamakala yantra, i.e. verses 2. 498 – 539:
498. In this context [of the ornamentation of the exterior walls of the temple], understand the reasons for the panels of erotic carvings (kamabandhas). I will explain them according to the popular tradition among sculptors (silpavidya).
499. Kama is the roof of the existence of the world. Everything that is born comes out of kama. It is also through kama that the original substance and all beings will finally disappear.
500. Without [the passionate union] of Śiva and Śakti, creation would be nothing but a fabrication. Nothing from life to death happens without the action of kama (kamakriya).
501. Śiva is the manifestation of the great linga, the essential form of Śakti is the yoni. Through their interaction, the whole world came into existence, this is called the action of kama.
502. Canonical erotic art (kamakala vidya) is a vast subject in ancient writings (Agamas). As it is written: “a place devoid of erotic imagery is a place to be avoided”.
503. Certain places are considered inferior, and always to be avoided, by the Tantric authorities (kaulaçara), as if they were the lair of Death or impenetrable darkness.
504. Without [the first] scholarly rite of offering and worship (puja) in the Kamakala Yantra, all Goddess worship (Śaktipuja) or Tantric practice (sadhana) is as futile as bathing an elephant.
505. When this yantra is consecrated, this building can be considered as a Tantric Temple (viramandira). Here all obstacles, fears, et cetera… are sure to be destroyed.
506. At the mere sight of this yantra all sorts of ghosts, demons and other hideous creatures are sure to flee away.
507. Listen, and I will carefully expose his secrets. [But remember,] this yantra should never be disclosed to anyone who is not a Tantra practitioner.
508. The base of this tantric figure (virabhumi) must be quadrilateral, either square or rectangular. Through the total area of this quadrilateral domain, two lines should be drawn.
509. One vertical and the other horizontal, these lines must intersect at the "precious house" [at the central point]. Starting from this precious point, the diagonals should be drawn to the corners, thus dividing the entire figure into triangular yonis.
510. Extending vertically from the lowest baseline of the yantra realm, a thin linga should be created, with a rounded top like a gemstone extending above the center point.
511. Above this precious pinnacle, the true essence of kamabindu [the point of love] is marked by a bulbous drop, the drop (bindu) which bestows all supernatural powers.
512. After that, the sixteen matrikas [sixteen "little mothers", mother-goddesses helping Śakti in her battles) are consigned with the same number of triangular yonis, ensuring that each is in fascinating contact with the linga.
513. These sixteen facets (kalas) are all formally conceived as yonis, only by virtue of linear convergence with the linga, thus becoming [a complete group of sixteen] facets.
514. How, then, is the segmented domain distributed so as to constitute the fifteen [these are sixteen] principal orifices which are joined to the linga?
515. By what means will these triangular figures be considered as representing yonis, of which the whole of this yantra is made up?
516. In the upper half, two oblique lines should connect the central upper bindu [point] to [that of] the end of the central horizontal line. In the same way, draw lines from the bottom center to the corner diagonals.
517. [The two side triangles of the upper part are further subdivided horizontally:] Kamesi is the first Śakti [she is assigned to the upper right triangle], Bhagamalika is the second [below her], Nityaklinna is the third [to the upper left triangle], and the fourth is Bherunda [below her].
518. [Below] the group of three domains on the left, Mahavajre Svan is assigned to the bottom triangle, Śivadutika is beside her [on the right of the linga].
519. Beside her, in the other area of the left corner, is the citśakti [spiritual energy] Vahnivasini, joined with fascinating lines.
520. To his left, and related to the terminal part of the precious top (maniksetra) of the linga is placed the goddess Vajreśvari.
521. Above, on the right is Tvarita, the unshakeable essence of the facets (kalatmika) of Śakti, and opposite [her], on the left is Kulasundari.
522. In this order are the magnificent estates occupied on the sides. In the great yantra of the altar-vulva (bhaga-pitha) only six others remain to be enumerated.
523. Against the right edge of the linga is Śakti Kllapataka, opposite her is the charming and supple Jvalamalini.
524. Vijaya, the constant Companion [is at upper left], Kamaleśvari extends below her at the precious end of the linga.
525. At her right side, the divine Tripurasundari is placed [and above her], opposed to Vijaya [is Bhairavi], the constant love of Bhairava, darling of the helpless.
526. These are the sixteen Śaktis, the goddesses who are the real essences of Love (kamakalatmika), together constituting the domain of the yantra. Around its outer periphery a protective ring of [eight] yoginis [is invoked].
527. Nirbhara at top center point, Rahaśyaka at top left corner, Kulotkirna at center left side, Atirahaśya at bottom corner.
528. At the lowest central square Sampradaya, at the next corner Guptatarahgika, Guptayogini in the center of the right side, and Nigarbha in the upper right.
529. These are the Yoginis of the peripheral realm, as opposed to the faceted Realm of Love. [Finally], the Supreme Śakti, the great goddess of the Facets of Love [or the Art of Love], Paraśakti Maha-Kamaleśvari [is visible] in the central drop.
533-534. Just below her, from the precious end [of the linga of the yantra] appears Śiva, the lord of Kamakala, his complexion somewhat dark, deeply still in a pose of seated yoga, almighty, [nevertheless] constantly absorbed through his sexual intercourse with Kamakaleśvari, straddling the cakra ajna, always delighted to drink his sexual fluids (rajahpanaratah).
535. Wearing the costume of the ascetic, [he is] the yogin Kamaleśvara, lord presiding over the great Kamakala Yantra, the dark Sankara.
536. This very secret yantra is the best way to protect any place. He is a helper of perceptible power, and manifestly the [best] provider of all attainments (siddhis).
537. In all the best temples of Śakti and Śiva this yantra must certainly be deployed, then their glory will remain unchanging, like the mountains.
538. [But] this very secret of secret yantras is not to be seen by anyone. This is the reason why these erotic images [must hide] the alignments of the yantra.
539. The common view among tantrikas is that erotic images should adorn the highest panels on the pilasters of the outer wall of the temple. These panels of erotic sculptures must be placed in such a way as to amaze the general public.
This diagram shows the meanings ascribed above to the different components of this yantra.
Hi, i am a tantra practitioner and i found that The personality of all of us is influenced by one or the other Mahavidya(The Great Wisdom Goddess). As I consider my personality influenced by Mahavidya Tara! Similarly, which Mahavidya do you consider your personality to be influenced by? If you don't know then write about your personality and I will tell you which Mahavidya influences your personality!
I think we all are forgetting the real meaning of Tantra. The biggest aim of Tantra is to achieve Siddhis(Super Natural Powers) So that we can understand the secrets of this universe. But nowadays people have given completely different interpretation of Tantra. Tantra is not a philosophy but Tantra is a science. A science that tells us how the universe functions. We have to re-understand the basic meaning of Tantra so that we do not wander here and there!
I was researching on siddhi of Shape Shifting and my conclusion is that presiding deity of this siddhi is the fourth Mahavidya mother goddess Bhairavi. What do u think about this??.....
Hi!
I’m reading about tantra and scratching the surface. I liked the concept of accepting the world, not denying anything of the world. It resonates with the false duality, IO, being just a veil.
I could picture the Buddhist monk reflecting on everything and realizing that denying some things of the creation was contradictory with the wholeness.
But then we are still pursuing NOT to feed the ego… I don’t get it.
Is it that once reaching the truth to reach the truth and kill ego and desire you just go with the flow and don’t fight ego/desires, but keep watching and meditating with no judgement until they eventually disappear?
Wherever I look for any Tantra training, it's all about sex. I'm interested in classic Tantra. Are there any genuine online teachers who initiate one into Tantra by giving Mantra Deeksha etc?
Edit: So far I have found https://hareesh.org/ and https://tantrailluminated.org/ by Christopher Wallis, the renown author of Tantra Illuminated
I finished the Introduction to Tantra by Lama Yeshe and some of his followup, but there was so much information. Are there any reputable courses/series online for practicing generation stage yogas in the tantric tradition?
For those who are interested please look here for some background on fire ceremonies and manuals that detail their performance.
And look here for the renowned Dr. Robert Svoboda's detailing of ways to work with fire.
Fire practices are extremely powerful.
I'll refrain from saying much more here and leave it to you all to work, or not, with the info there.
om shanti
I’m looking to expand my library and wanted to know if anyone had any good books on yantras. Mudras would also be welcome as I’m trying to expand my practice
Hi, I'm interested in Hinduism and Buddhism. I'm currently looking at shakti and kundalini yoga. I want to start practicing tantra and kundalini yoga. And hope to have spiritual awakening. I cant read hindi and i dont have guru nearby who can guide me. But i want to practice shakti tantra and kundalini yoga anyway. Please recommend books that may help. Thanks a lot!
I’m just gonna leave it here. Enjoy
https://isbndb.com/book/9780520204997
Part of the editorial review : « Drawing on a broad range of Sanskrit and vernacular texts as well as extensive research in India, including written and oral interpretations of contemporary Hindu practitioners, Kinsley describes the unusual qualities of each of the Mahavidyas and traces the parallels between their underlying themes. Especially valuable are the many rare and fascinating images he presents?each important to grasping the significance of the goddesses. Written in an accessible, engaging style, Kinsley's book provides a comprehensive understanding of the Mahavidyas and is also an overview of Hindu tantric practice. »
Complete , precise, and yet accessible to anyone.
A really interesting book.
Editorial Review :
"“This is a book about the reception of Indian tantric traditions in the context of Western occultism. … a unique contribution to the study of modern and contemporary Western Esotericism. The book is the first academic monograph on receptions of tantra and yoga in the context of occultist magical groups. Its short chapters, written as self-contained essays, make it a useful crash course on this topic. … will be of great interest to scholars and students of modern occultism.” (Egil Asprem, Nova Religio, 2016)
"It's about time. At last we have a serious, nuanced, and thoughtful book on the central role that India and Indian Tantra have played in the history of Western esotericism, occultism, and magic. Djurdjevic hits all the right notes. He celebrates comparison as essential to any such historical enterprise. He takes up the role of the imagination and the ideal object as keys to any and all human reality posits. He does not dismiss western forms of Tantra and yoga as somehow illegitimate or unimportant. And he focuses, without blinking, on the explicitly sexual dimensions of these practices and figures that have come to shape and define that century and a half long Tantric transmission." - Jeffrey J. Kripal, author of Esalen: America and the Religion of No Religion
"Djurdjievic's book is of enormous interest for all scholars and readers who want to understand modern developments in the history of western esotericism, especially from a comparative, cross-cultural perspective. It casts new light on movements and groups that had been very little - if at all - studied before, such as Kenneth Grant's Thyphonian OTO, Dadaji Mahendranath's East-West Order, and Mike Magee's AMOOKOS. It also offers new insight on classic authors such as Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune, and their relationship with Indian spiritual traditions. Djurdjevic's expertise in both western and Indian sources makes this comparative study essential reading for all persons who want to understand phenomena of acculturation and globalization in modern western esotericism." - Marco Pasi, University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands"