Recently, I suffered the loss of a cherished childhood acquaintance. This acquaintance is not a person, but an ideal.

As a child, I was captivated by the alluring and forceful explanations I was taught about the world, good and evil, and the purpose of life. I truly believed the Gemara to be the epitome of all that is good and right, and sin to be the manifestation of all that is bad and wrong.

A Torah scholar, accordingly, was in my young and trusting eyes a paragon of heavenly virtue, or to quote the Chazon Ish, מלאך ההולך בין בני תמותה, an angel walking amongst mortal men- and as I got older and realized that this can not be said to be true of all rabbis, I consoled myself with the fact that surely it was true of the truly great Torah leaders of the generation, and certainly of the 'angelic Rishonim,' the inexpressibly holy rabbis of yesteryear.

How desperate I was to find meaning and goodness in the universe, and how willingly I attached it to the Torah!

Even when, some years later, my faith in Judaism's divinity crumbled under the weight of evidence and life experiences that demanded it do so, I still held on, perhaps out of desperation, to one thing from my childhood - perhaps the Talmud is not the word of God, but surely the revered men who composed, studied, and codified it's laws were well-meaning human beings who strove for truth and justice, simply limited by the insularity of their medieval (if sometimes temporally modern) religious upbringing?

This hope allowed me to find a way to compartmentalize my disbelief and respect the many mentors, rabbis, and close friends- compassionate, well-meaning people by any standard- I have known who had dedicated their lives to Torah.

When I come across, as I often do in Yeshiva, horrific teachings encouraging homophobia and the like, I try to console myself with the idea that these authors were convinced, given the evidence available to them, that homosexuality was harmful and that God's will was to legislate against it- and legislate they did.

But recently, I have come across a halacha so abhorrent, so inconceivable, that I just can't do this anymore. My heart cannot fathom, my mind cannot comprehend, how what I once revered is so utterly and irredeemably evil and twisted.

Behold the words of the Rambam, that great and vaunted pillar of the yeshiva world upon whose writings I have spent countless hours of careful study:

אֲבָל יִשְׂרָאֵל הַבָּא עַל הַכּוּתִית בֵּין קְטַנָּה בַּת שָׁלֹשׁ שָׁנִים וְיוֹם אֶחָד בֵּין גְּדוֹלָה בֵּין פְּנוּיָה בֵּין אֵשֶׁת אִישׁ וַאֲפִלּוּ הָיָה קָטָן בֶּן תֵּשַׁע שָׁנִים וְיוֹם אֶחָד כֵּיוָן שֶׁבָּא עַל הַכּוּתִית בְּזָדוֹן הֲרֵי זוֹ נֶהֱרֶגֶת מִפְּנֵי שֶׁבָּא לְיִשְׂרָאֵל תַּקָּלָה עַל יָדֶיהָ כִּבְהֵמָה.

רמב"ם פרק י"ב מאיסו"ב ה"י

I'm in shock.

I am the man who's wife turns out to be Lilith, the child who's stuffed animal turns out to be an animal corpse, the investor who's friend and guide turns out to be Madoff.

Childhood memories dance mockingly before my eyes, of a shul filled with dancing, jubilant men, their voices uplifted in song:

פקודי ה' ישרים משמחי לב

The laws of God are just, and gladden the heart.

משפטי ה' אמת צדקו יחדיו

God's judgements are true, perfectly righteous.

My head is spinning as I grasp, for a second time in my life, the extent of the betrayal my upbringing has been.

The day after this discovery, the first half of the old French adage spends first seder clanging around my brain, 'le roi est mort,' the king is dead! The Rambam is dead and buried as a source of inspiration or respect!

But as I wait for the second half of that phrase to comfort me with it's defiantly hopeful cry of 'vivre le roi!' live the new king, I realize that no new king is coming- there is no replacement for me to fall back on, no new moral compass to light my way. I am alone and wandering in this newly Godliness world.

Before I made this post, I called a certain Rav, a man I personally know to be fluent in quite literally the entirety of Torah, from Shas with the rishonim down through the chiddushim of the Brisker Rav.

As I ask my question, I hear the words almost as if from third person. My ears hear my practiced tongue form the familiar sounds of 'the Rambam... Hilchos issurei biah... halacha....' and I am struck dumb for a moment by the clamoring, suddenly horrible echoes of the hundreds, nay, thousands of times my lips have carefully formed those words, taking care to precisely quote a difficult Rambam and then posing a well-thought out question, offering a creative resolution, or neatly proving a halachic theory- and my mind now recoils in disgust at how the Rambam used to be the cornerstone of every Talmudic edifice I'd ever considered, how his words were the foundation of every sugya I've ever learnt.

Having crossed the Rubicon, I force myself to finish my question: 'The Rambam paskens that if a Jew has sex with a non-Jewish girl, then so long as the girl is three years of age or older, she is put to death.'

Why have I called? I reject the authenticity of Judaism regardless of anything he might tell me.

The answer is that I am desperate to hear of some saving grace that will allow me to walk away with some respect for this Iron Age religion, so lovingly formed and transmitted through the generations- as it stands, I now look around the Beis Medrash at my friends, many of them sweet, kind, sincere, and deeply frum people, and can't ignore the voice in my head screaming that these people, whether they know it or not (this rambam is fairly obscure, and the select religious friends I discussed it with were shocked as much as I was), represent a worldview as terrible as anything Hitler's Reich dreamed up.

I hope beyond hope that the erudite Rabbi will inform me that this section of the Rambam is a forgery, a lie, a libel manufactured from somewhere deep inside the most twisted and diseased of minds.

But something tells me that while hope may perhaps do well to spring eternal on greener plains, it should no longer for Orthodox Judaism.

אוי לעיניים שכך רואות אוי לאזנים שכך שומועת

There’s a few things I wanna talk about here. This is going to be a long post so if you have the patience and a good place to sit while you do muktzah on Shabbos, enjoy this read or don’t lol

I’m out of the community now (for maybe a few years) but it wasn’t easy… Leaving this place has been social suicide. I never fit in here anyways but I’m proud that I don’t and I never want to. But it’s also been exhausting to be myself and constantly prove that I could succeed without this cult. And it hurt to be alienated.

I feel bad for those that are still ITC and for those that won’t even consider leaving. I feel bad because if they ever do decide to leave, they’ll also experience the inevitable alienation of being a Jew from outsiders.

It’s not specifically because we’re Jewish though but it’s about how we’re raised. Many ppl in this community never interacted with outsiders before and as a result have TERRIBLE social skills.

A lot of times I see people around me that are questioning Judaism and are curious about going off the derech who end up becoming chronically online because they don’t know anyone who thinks like them. Because using technology is starting to become a little more normalized in the community, it’s easier for people to end up becoming screen addicts.

I know someone who’s never spoken to a non Jew before in person and spends literally all her waking hours on her phone because she doesn’t agree with the way things work around here but doesn’t know anyone or how to talk to them.

I remember when I first left, I was terrified but I left anyways because I had too much curiosity and there was so much I wanted to experience. I ended up making a massive fool out of myself because I had no idea how to interact. It’s honestly not a surprise to me that just about every otd person I’ve met gets labeled some sort of neurodivergent eventually or struggle with mental health.

People in our community have terrible social skills though I don’t think it’s inherent in people. It’s about the lack of interaction with A) people of the opposite sex and B) people outside the community. Having your own personality really isn’t encouraged.

This post isn’t to discourage anyone from leaving btw, quite the opposite actually. The only way to really develop good interpersonal/social/conversational skills is by TALKING to people. I’m trying to do the same myself.

It’s really scary and it will 100% be embarrassing at first but practice is so important! You’ll face alienation, rejection and hurt but it’s the only way you’ll find YOUR people and find your community. I’m still looking so I’m reminding myself of this too.

The way our community functions in the 21st century is sad and it’s dysfunctional. Orthodox Judaism is not compatible with the times and the youth in our community are waking up to this fact and it’s happening really fast. But the sad part is that people who decide to leave for good don’t usually have a network of like minded people that can appreciate what we’ve been through because who tf willingly talks Orthodox Jews? Not many ppl even know we exist!

TDLR; The state of our community is sad. It’s important to be strong minded and have a good network of people to connect with if you decide to leave. Developing social skills is vital to getting by in the 21st century and that fact is barely emphasized in our community.

made some candied yams and they were delicious. this is the first dish more difficult than an omelette that i’ve ever cooked

for context, i’m a guy in my mid 20s. i’m sure some of the other dudes in here can relate with going into the secular world without a modicum of cooking experience except MAYBE cholent and basic BBQ food

one of the many negatives of growing up in a conservative family structure is the way men are seldom involved with the kitchen beyond doing dishes and taking out trash. this is especially true if you have multiple sisters like i do. we were expected to be able to navigate our entire life without this important skill set. at home there’s food made for you. in yeshiva there’s food made for you. and once you find and settle down with a shiduch, you’re set for life

anyways, on to the recipe itself lol this is a very simple and tasty sweet potato recipe. i learned it from this wonderful lady who’s house i used to live at with her son, my at-the-time best friend. she used to make it for us if we came to church with her, along with a whole spread of soul food. speaking of which, if you ever get the chance to attend services at a black church, fucking do it. i fall into the camp of people who have zero spiritual inclination, but seeing how healthy application of religion can unite a community is a beautiful thing to witness

here’s the recipe:

sweet potatoes peeled and cut thick

lots of cinnamon and nutmeg

a lot of butter. i like to use about 2 sticks for 3 pounds of sweet potatoes

sugar in the raw. white sugar works too, but the glaze is thicker and tastier with sugar in the raw

put it all in a pot, keep the stove on low-medium heat, and mix occasionally ensuring the sugar and butter doesn’t burn. keep the covered once everything has melted. usually finishes cooking within 30-40 minute, just make sure all the sweet potato pieces have had time in the glaze so it’s all cooked through.

it’s a delicious sweet desert/snack/meal and it’s really hard to fuck up. enjoy!

You know the deal by now. Feel free to discuss your Shabbat plans or whatever else.

I just discovered the Slifkin Affair, and just reading the letters written by gedolim is enough to make my jaw fall permanently to the floor. It's like watching a train wreck, I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.

This letter addressed to Rabbi Dovid Feinstein sums it up very well, but there's a whole webpage with letters and articles back and forth.

Replete with such bizarre occurrences as the Jewish Observer refusing to publish a letter by Rabbi Aharon Feldman, Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Israel, and even the NYT chiming in on the debate , the whole saga reads like the bad retelling of the last painful death spasms of Ultra Orthodoxy- sometimes painful, often comical, and beyond what I could have ever dreamed up.

Had I been old enough to read then, this conflict likely would have destroyed my faith, as I'm sure it did, probably quite painfully, for many others.

ETA: To quote a tiny excerpt:

"Rav Elyashiv holds that any person who believes the world to be older than 5768 years is kofer b’ikur, and as such, is pasul l’dayanus. Therefore, a ger who underwent conversion through a beis din on which such a person served as a dayan remains non-Jewish. The conversion is invalid even b’dieved."

Let me repeat that these words were made before a large audience of rabbis and gedolei Torah. Stunned, I privately asked Rabbi Eisenstein if he realized that this psak would, in effect, exclude the modern orthodox rabbinate from the conversion process. He answered affirmatively, adding that Rav Elyashiv held this psak to be “pashut.”

So ANOTHER instance happened where, as somebody who became frum later in life, I was treated second class. I have a few other posts about me talking about how I often experience being treated like garbage and like I don’t matter by frum people- and last week it happened yet again. It was the final push to just stop caring. I just straight up don’t give a crap anymore and will not make the effort to try and fit in any longer. This society doesn’t want people who will “ruin their lineage” and that has been communicated to me clear as day- at best they tolerate me as long as I know that I’m the underdog they get to crap all over. I don’t ever want to hear a kiruv rabbi telling me how much I’m needed when that’s clearly a big, fat lie.

I’ve been going to places where there aren’t many frum Jews around, and I don’t feel like I’m leading a double life, I’m just happy fitting back into the society I was raised in. Nobody questioning my lineage, judging how long my skirt is, demanding me to share my story on how I became frum and hearing their obviously fake, annoying praises on how “holy” I am, being singled out randomly by frummies by loudly exclaiming to everyone within earshot I’m a BT, no more being asked what’s wrong with my husband that a FFB like him should marry me… none of it!! I feel so free and interactions with other people do not feel like I have to hide parts of myself to try and feel accepted.

Also I’m dressing how I want in public (except when I visit in laws) if somebody I know sees me, well I’ve come to the point where I’ll be happy that they know I’m no longer frum because if they snitch to others, it’ll just be a bonus for me.

Holy shit I feel so good. I’m not as sad or depressed anymore trying to figure out how to live my life for frummies, as somebody who will never be taken seriously because I didn’t grow up like them. I’m not a nebach case anymore that is looked at with pity. People won’t become disinterested the second they find out I didn’t go to a frum school. I don’t feel different, othered, and like trash anymore.

The next step is to slowly and quietly remove my ‘friends’ from my life (who barely ever reach out to me or make it seem like it’s an inconvenience to want to visit in-person) and continue to go to non-Jewish events and make new connections.

This is a major step from me being ITC and trying to fit in, as what I was previously attempting to do.

I've been set up on a few shidduchim in the past. Some went well, but the girl decided she wasn't ready yet, others just weren't a match.

For fun, I signed up for some dating apps, and a girl messaged me a few weeks ago. We chatted by text for a while, and then we finally met in person last night.

She comes from a non-religious family and is not religious herself.

I'm still trying to figure myself out, but nothing about her bothers me seriously. I know my immediate family is supportive either way; I'm just scared of potential backlash from my community and extended family.

Me and my mixed family (non jewish SO) and our kids moved to Netherlands from Norway last summer, due to my job basically. In Norway, there's around 1500 jews, and just a small percentage I'd call religious and a fraction of that are orthodox.

Rewind a couple of months, and I had a meeting with a couple of tax lawyers, whereas one was visibly orthodox. We talked a bit afterwards, and ended up getting invited to shabbat to his family a couple of times, which I think is nice even though I don't drink the kool aid, but my kids like the tradition and they have kids their age.

Last shabbat, this dude went on and on with me about how AI is avodah zarah, and basically we're creating something b'tzelem elohim. My work is HEAVILY invested in AI, and this guy knows it. I just went something like "aha, ok, really, aha, ok" for 15-20 minutes, but then managed to steer the conversation into other topics. We're invited to them again this shabbat, and I fucking know the topic is getting brought up again.

How could I best avoid it? If I really want to avoid getting invited again, I could say that we're developing an AI that will deal with halakhic ruling way more effective than any rabbi. Maybe I'll call it rAbbI. What do you think?

Mine is Alex O'Connor.

I’m aware of how fucked up this is gonna sound but I just gotta get this off my chest cuz I don’t know anyone to ask.

My parents are very stereotypical looking Orthodox Jews. I’m very much not. Quite the opposite actually. I dress like the kind of person that hates their parents.

I don’t hate my parents but I can’t stand being around them and I’m embarrassed being around them. I’m aware of how messed up this sounds because I know that many ppl here would do anything to have their parents support them but in my case, I sometimes want nothing to do with them though I still love and appreciate them for not disowning me.

The reason why I dont want them to show up is because I go to a public school (cuz I got kicked out of all the Yeshivas) and I’m already the weird kid as it is. My parents are fucking strange and anytime I bring them somewhere, they make everyone uncomfortable especially when they have the opportunity to bring religion into the conversation. I know in most cases in the community, it would usually be that the parents are ashamed of their kids but in my case it’s the opposite, and I feel like an dickhead because of it.

On the surface my parents might seem like very nice people but the longer you talk to them, the more realize how out of touch they are and it’s kind of eerie. And because of the way I was brought up, it’s hard for me to relate to anyone too. I don’t have any friends to support me or hang out with at the ceremony and the last thing I want is to have to only stick to my parents the whole time.

Sorry this is kind of turning into a vent. I just had to get this out somewhere. This is such a bizarre situation and in hindsight it’s kind of comical but I still can’t help but be embarrassed.

Who knows who was the first heretic? the answer will shock you .( Hint it was just learned in דף יומי)

For example, sitting through a shiur about Zera Levatala creating thousands of sheidim, being personally victimized by frum leaders, a ridiculous law that you previously believed but suddenly sounded insane?

For me, it was the constant mashiach talk. Rabbis promising in shiurs that mashiach is coming this year, right around the corner, pack your bags.. attributing every natural disaster or war to a sign of his coming. That is the first thing that made me question / stop believing.

Sorry for the repost - just wanted to clarify. I know there are other posts scattered in this subreddit, but I am looking to hear about more specific moments.

Thank you for contributing

I live at home with my mom and unmarried sister, and every shabbat im home they just bicker argue or yell at eachother. Its rly tense at the shabbat table and im rly sick of having to deal with it all the time.

I also feel alot of guilt for leaving them behind . Specifically my sister.

Last night i came to a point where i realized i have to move out . I am saving up money i am just scared of not being able to pay the rent as well.

Any words of encouragement or advice from ppl who have done it let me know.

Ive been hearing a lot from people frustrated that the community tends to votes for right wing politicians. But was anyone else taught to not vote at all?

I was taught by my parents that I should not meddle in non jewish affairs, and therefore should not vote. None of my teachers or peers ever talked about voting either, except for one student who had moved here from the united states.

Anyone else?

"They" here meaning "far too many frum people, and virtually every single one I know personally." Typing out this minirant has been sufficiently cathartic, really, but it seems a shame to waste it.

I'm tired of hearing this, and tired of hearing people, even those who disagree, accept it at face value. They didn't vote for Trump because of Israel. They didn't ignore all the bullshit and hold their noses and vote for Israel. They voted enthusiastically for all the bullshit, and use Israel as an excuse. They voted for him because he's a racist sexist fascist pig who's also going to shit on gays and trans people; don't let them pretend otherwise. I got very familiar with this kind of stuff growing up, because my father's head is firmly up Avigdor Miller's arse. They didn't "vote for" him; they worship him.

Now I'm trans in Trump's America. Allowing my family to claim they're willing to sacrifice me for Israel is actually letting them off the hook. They voted because they wanted to hurt me and people like me. It is not incidental to their goal; it is their goal.

Notice how certain right-wing Arab Muslim communities voted for Trump and claimed it was for the exact opposite reason. Bullshit. Both communities did it because they're racist and oppose the empowerment of women and LGBT people. I'll grant that the claims of doing it for Gaza are a hell of a lot flimsier, so that group are doing a lot more mental gymnastics right now.

I hope this doesn't get banned as I/P content, because that is only tangential to what I'm saying.

What's something that you believed that in hindsight was weird?

Did your spouse keep you, how does it work? And what about the kids?

Hey all. I'm wondering if there's anyone out there like me who believes, but doesn't find that enough motivation to practise?

I've seen a lot of people on this sub who leave because they're hurt in some way, and that's not me.

I can explain what I mean further if wanted.

Edit: If you know of a subreddit that caters more to people similar to me I'd appreciate if you could share.

The following are teachings of Chazal that, in retrospect, seem intentionally devised to prevent people from leaving.

• Obviously there is the prohibition against even considering the possibility of Torah not being true (Rambam ch. 2 hil. Avodah Zara), or the rabbinically enacted laws whose explicitly stated aim was to prevent the intermingling of religious Jews with anyone else (like forbidding a gentile or non-believer's wine or dairy). But there are others that are less blatant:

• The gemara teaches that one who regrets his past mitzvos does not receive reward for them. This is a powerful reason not to embrace disbelief. I know that for me personally, I was held back from exploring my growing doubts because I didn't want to lose my 'sunken investment'- the thousands of hours I have spent studying Gemara, for which I, having become a non-believer, will likely no longer be compensated for even if God and Torah are real.

• The gemara teaches that those who become heretics rarely return (do teshuvah) to judaism. (כל באיה לא ישובון.) This means that exploring doubts requires being ready to fully commit to never coming back. For the believer, long taught that heretics spend eternity in hell, this teaching strongly discourages exploring one's beliefs for fear of losing their ability to one day 'repent' and be saved from hell - the very opposite of Rumspringa.

• I would also include the demand to constantly spend time either learning or raising children, depending on gender, which leaves little time to examine one's beliefs or educate one's self.

To clarify, I don't think modern-day rabbis are teaching these things in order to manipulate people, I think they fully believe them to be true. But I suspect that whoever made them up originally did so with the intent of keeping people in the fold.

Can anyone think of any other examples of halachos or teachings that upon closer inspection seem designed to keep people in the religion, but don't seem that way at first glance?

EDIT: I made a private subreddit for anybody in the Tristate area who wants to join. Please DM

I’m taking steps to physically leave and want to connect to other people who are leaving/have left the community in person

NY/NJ (doesn’t matter where I can get around)

Age doesn’t matter, I’m fine with eating totally not kosher like seafood and stuff

I also want to preemptively say that I prefer to meet women (I’m a woman myself) or group settings, and of course liberal-minded. I’ve had men DM me and it’s fine if we just chat if it’s not weird but I’m NOT looking to hookup and I’m not looking to leave my husband

If there are OTD meetups happening please DM the info, not Footsteps

Thanks friends 🫶