I’ve recently embarked on a journey to explore different perspectives on the existence of God, specifically through literature that uses scientific evidence to argue for or against the concept of God. However, as someone who is not a scientist, I find myself questioning the utility of reading these books.

On one hand, these books offer a wealth of information and can provide valuable insights into the intersection of science and religion. On the other hand, without a deep understanding of the various scientific fields these books delve into, I wonder if I’m truly grasping the arguments being made or if I’m merely accepting the author’s interpretation of the science.

Furthermore, I recognize that no one, not even a scientist, can be an expert in every field of science. This leads me to question whether it’s worth investing time in reading these books, given the potential for misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

In addition to this, I’m also interested in finding books that purely discuss science and are universally accepted in their scientific accuracy. I believe such books could serve as a solid foundation for understanding the science referenced in theistic and atheistic literature.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this matter. Is there value in reading scientific arguments in theistic and atheistic literature for non-scientists? Are there any universally accepted scientific books you would recommend?

Jesus knows this really super funny joke where knock knock is the punchline. I don't want to apologize for it.

But when Wisdom (your sister) tells a joke, laughter is the punchline.

Because Heaven is for Jesus sheep, and sheep say Bah.

But when Wisdom say something you say aha!

And when you hear something funny you say haha,

So when your sister made the joke they said

bah aha! haha

I'm not jewish, and honestly, I don't know much about judaism, but this is a question I've had for a while, not only in judaism but in a lot of religions there are rules regarding hair, specially to women, but not excluding men.

I know some orthodox jew women cover their heads with headscarfs and hats, I don't know if men have their own garments, or what the reason beheind them is, if those who use them consider them just a requirement to enter heaven or if it's a general rule. what do you think?

I'm asking the same question across multiple communities to see what everyone has to say

Just looking for a respectfull debate about this topic.

Statement 1 - It is not the place for man to intervene between the faith of God and another man. If God so wills it, the mans faith will be tested - but we aren't supposed to be the one putting blockades on the way to God.

Statement 2 - In the Book of Ruth (1:16-18) we see Ruth convert and become a believer in God, and Naomi doesn't argue against that. So, Tanakh considered, it is the faith that makes you a Jew, no so-called "test" you are supposed to pass.

Statement 3 - "We are the chosen people" I don't see how that relates. We are chosen because we obeyed God and didn't need to hear His entire plan first - if they are willing aswell, there should be no problem.

Statement 4 - It is an enforcement of cultural tradition of the Jews on God, to have to do 1,2,3,4,5,6, etc before you get to actually become a believer in God. This just goes back to my views in statement 1 - that we aren't the ones to be testing the faith of man, and that it is Gods role to do so.

Thanks ahead of time for answering!

I am not Jewish and I am a frequent viewer of Sam Aronow’s YouTube channel and he frequently says that being against tattoos are part of Jewish-American customs and compares the prohibition against tattoos to other non-binding cultural traditions of other Jewish communities like Ashkenazi Jewish superstitions against naming a child after a living relative or Sephardi Jews being allowed to consume rice during Passover.

Leviticus 19:28 says “You shall not make gashes in your flesh for the dead, or incise any marks on yourselves.”, it seems like a pretty unambiguous prohibition against tattoos universal to all Jews, not just American Jews. Do only American Jews interpret this verse as a prohibition against tattoos? If so could it possibly be a result of lingering influence from the Puritans that are usually blamed for the more puritanical aspects of American culture?

Our Sages said that it is permissible to kill lice sometimes found in one’s hair on Shabbos since such lice do not reproduce and are merely created from the sweat in one’s head. The Rambam (Chapter 11 of Hilchot Shabbat) and Maran Ha’Shulchan Aruch (Chapter 316) rule likewise.

modern science has proven that lice reproduce through male and female like any other living creature. What I've seen as far as responses is that we do not have the authority to overrule what our saged said even if it's been proven otherwise by modern science. I don't really understand this rationale and am having a hard time accepting this. Can anyone provide a reason as to why this is still in effect today? Practically speaking, is it a practice to kill lice on Shabbos, do people actually do this?

Wondering if anyone knows the current thinking (or consensus if there is one) on the origins of Ashkenazi Jews?

I saw a paper that seemed to indicate there is very little Levantine DNA in Ashkenazi Jews - much more Iranian. This surprised me, because I know members of the Judaen population ended up in what’s now Iraq, but didn’t know they were in Iran. Here is the paper: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087/full

Am wondering if there is very little direct relation between ancient Israelites and modern Ashkenazi Jews.

Greetings. The obvious meaning of the promised land throughout the Jewish bible (I'm a Christian, forgive me if I botch terminology) is the physical land of Israel. When there was a Temple, it was assumed that God resided there ... he was geographically present. However the more time I spend with the prophets and other writings, the more it seems there's an ... I don't know ... spiritual? meaning. Ezekiel's vision shows that God moved with his chosen people into exile and presumably is with them no matter where they are.

So my question is, in Judaism is there a concept of "the promised land" being not only physical but also a wider relationship with God and that that wider relationship is at least as important as the land of Israel?

Sorry, this is worded badly. Hopefully you understand what I mean. I've been thinking about this for a while but can't quite get my mental model into a concise question.

The Torah prescribes the severe label of mosser, informer, for those who resort to secular courts. However as with any point of Jewish law, it has extenuating conditions.

Manny Waks suffered sexual abuse by a Yeshiva staff which was covered up. He later took the leaders to court and attained vindication. Nevertheless, what he did drew the ire of Chabad all over, with some calling him an informer.

I’ve suffered psychological and social abuse from my orthodox community. The Beis Din tried but could not do anything. So to me it’s time to summon the Human Rights Tribunal.

Do you think Jews can achieve a unanimous opinion on whether to get secular authorities involved? Which positions are objectively right? What Manny did has raised awareness of sexual abuse in the Jewish community (sexual abuse exist in similar rates across all communities). Was he justified in going outside the Jewish court which may itself be part of Jewish law when situations warrant it?

UPDATE: I now see that I have made two enormous assumptions that are both false. This post is therefore incorrect.

My first incorrect assumption was that I did not realize that the majority of ultraorthodox and even modern orthodox Jews are young earth creationists. This is a very extreme position that I did not realize was common among Jews. For radical hardcore science deniers, scientific facts would cause no issues for their literal reading of Gen 1 or any other part of the Tanakh. Once one denies the validity of the scientific method and the facts learned through it, there would be no problems with the scriptural conflicts with science.

My second incorrect assumption was that even weakly religious people ascribe at least some input from God in the Torah. If one accepts that the Torah is written entirely by humans without input from God, then it is easy to accept that the humans got stuff wrong. What I don't understand in this case is why one would still be religious at all given that belief.

Major thanks to /u/0143lurker_in_brook for this explanation of what Jews at different levels of religiosity actually believe.

I will continue to reply to anyone's comments on this. But, my understanding of other people's beliefs is now radically different than it was when I posted this.

Original post, unchanged and left for posterity:

My Background:

I'm a 59 year old atheist who was raised weakly Jewish in an American Conservative synagogue. I had a bris, a bar mitzvah, and was married to my wonderful wife of 35 years and counting by the rabbi who officiated my bar mitzvah. I do not speak Hebrew.

While I have absolutely no problem typing or writing the name, out of courtesy and respect for the religious Jews on the site, I will use Hashem. I do not want some minor offense at using the name typed out in any form to distract from the very real issues I'm intending to discuss.

However, when I quote the translation I am using, it will spell out one of the names. I apologize for any offense caused by this. But, I do not want to alter the Chabad Lubavitchers' translation in any way for fear of changing meaning.

My Assumptions:

1. I'm going to assume that the 7 days of creation are not literal. I don't know if there are any young earthers here. But, I will be assuming that it is irrelevant to the bigger questions here since no one can tell me what an earth day would mean before the creation of the earth and sun anyway.

2. I will assume that everyone will be OK using the Chabbad Lubavitcher's website for the translation of the text.

3. If you would like to dispute the translation, I have no objection. But, I would like you to do both of the following:

   a) Give your preferred translation of the verse in question.

   b) Explain why you think the difference between your preferred translation and this translation is a material difference that truly changes the meaning AND negates my point.

The Problems for Judaism:

1. The order of creation is provably false.

   Even if we just treat the literal seven days as some vague time brackets indicating the order of creation, Hashem does not seem to know how He created any of it.

2. The universe described in this text is not the universe in which we live.

   In fact, it is very much unlike our universe in significant and meaningful ways. This would indicate that if there is any divine inspiration for the Torah, that Hashem did not know what He created.

My Premise:

Hashem did not know what He created or how He created it. There is no reason we or anyone else should believe that He is indeed the creator of the universe?

Here is a link to the Chabbad translation of Genesis 1. I will be using only the English since I do not speak Hebrew. But, the parallel of original Hebrew and the English translation are both here.

My argument begins here.

Genesis 1 The Beginning

1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.

In reality: In the beginning the universe was a hot dense mass.

The earth would come roughly 9.25 billion years later, about 60 million years after the sun.

Facts:

• Age of the universe (since the big bang): 13.8 billion years

• Age of the sun: 4.6 billion years

• Age of the earth: 4.54 billion years

• Age of the moon: 4.51 billion years -- important later.

2 Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.

In reality: The earth was molten rock. But, the sun had already formed. So, darkness was not over any surface of water because A) the surface was glowing hot (not dark) molten rock (lava), way too hot for liquid water and B) the sun was already here.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

In reality: There was light from the time that the universe was about 370,000 years old and had cooled and expanded sufficiently for photons to travel.

So, talking about light being created over 9 billion years later is clearly false.

Facts:

• Universe became transparent at [370,000 years old.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe#Recombination,_photon_decoupling,_and_the_cosmic_microwave_background_(CMB\))

• The first light sources (stars) formed at [1 billion years after the big bang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_universe#Recombination,_photon_decoupling,_and_the_cosmic_microwave_background_(CMB\)), still more than 9 billion years before the sun.

7 And God made the expanse and it separated between the water that was below the expanse and the water that was above the expanse, and it was so.

So, this verse indicates some physical barrier that separates the water above from the earth. So, the sky is some kind of physical barrier above which is water.

However, when astronauts flew to the moon, they did not use a submarine. Instead of water above an expanse, they found our atmosphere trailed off and they flew through mostly empty space.

Hashem thinks there is water there. Even our most distant space probes have found space to be mostly empty.

11 And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, seed yielding herbs and fruit trees producing fruit according to its kind in which its seed is found, on the earth," and it was so.

Ah, now we get to evolution. This is clearly wrong because here Hashem is stating that He created plants before He created the sun. I'm not sure what light these plants had. He did make some kind of light prior to this. But, it wasn't the sun.

Worse, the first plants arrived on land about 470 million years ago (MYA). This is well after the Cambrian explosion in the sea which began roughly 539 MYA. So, complex life in the sea predates land plants by around 69 million years or so.

Worse still, fruiting plants didn't evolve until about 100-125 MYA. But, the Torah has them evolving before the Cambrian explosion.

Again, Hashem does not seem to know the order in which He created things, casting a lot of doubt on whether He did indeed create them.

14 And God said, "Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens, to separate between the day and between the night, and they shall be for signs and for appointed seasons and for days and years. 15 And they shall be for luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shed light upon the earth." And it was so. 16 And God made the two great luminaries: the great luminary to rule the day and the lesser luminary to rule the night, and the stars.

Those plants had been waiting very patiently for the Sun to be created. Good thing they didn't die in those many millions of years.

Now we come to another major problem.

The sun is older than both the earth and the moon. But, Hashem says He created the sun and moon after plants evolved and creating them at roughly the same time. But the sun is almost 100 million years older than the moon. And, both are more than 4 billion years older than plants.

Also, the moon reflects sunlight. It is not in itself a light.

So, Hashem did not know when He created the sun relative to plants. Hashem did not know that He created the sun before the earth. Hashem did not know that the moon is younger than the earth. Hashem did not know that the moon only reflects light, rather than actually creating it, as the sun does.

These are some pretty serious problems if Hashem is alleged to have given the Torah to Moses. Hashem is supposed to know what He created and in what order He created it.

17 And God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to shed light upon the earth.

So, Hashem thought He put the sun and moon at roughly the same distance from the earth and in that physical expanse that is holding back the waters above the expanse.

But, the moon is only ever at most under 407,000 km from earth. Compare that to the sun at an average distance of 149,600,000 km from the earth, or more than 367 times as far from earth as the moon.

Again, Hashem does not seem to understand the universe He is alleged to have created.

20 And God said, "Let the waters swarm a swarming of living creatures, and let fowl fly over the earth, across the expanse of the heavens."

Now we finally got to the sea life that was here 69 million years before the first plants and more than 400 million years before the fruits Hashem had allegedly already created.

This is completely out of order.

26 And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."

Here Hashem is explicitly creating humans very separately from the rest of the animals and in Hashem's own image. This is clearly wrong since we evolved from and are apes. I was personally born so many weeks premature that I still had my ape fur (lanugo) to prove my evolution from apes.

And, if we are created in Hashem's image, that brings up a whole enormous host of problems.

80% of humans have back pain at some point in their lives. The design of our bodies is exactly what you'd expect from evolution, good enough to survive. But, from a perfect designer, that good enough is pretty sucky. Our backs are a horrible design. Does Hashem also suffer from back pain if we are in His image?

There are numerous other problems in our design including that our sinuses that drain up, our testes that start in our abdomens and must drop to our scrota leaving a cavity that puts the males of our species at high risk of hernias, knees that cause problems for a lot of people, eyes with blind spots because the rods and cones in our retinas are backwards, our pharynx that creates high risk of choking, and quite a few others.

All of these point to evolution rather than to a perfect designer who designed us in his image. Even if we assume that the problems in the design of our brain are the result of our fall from grace in the Garden of Eden, that does not explain all of the physical flaws in our bodies.

With Orthodox Judaism, the basic claim is that the Jewish people were enslaved in Egypt, and God freed them and brought them to Mt. Sinai where he gave them the Torah through Moses, and the Oral Law which was handed down through prophets and rabbis, with its authority going through the rabbinical leaders of the Tanaaim, Amoraim, Gaonim, Rishonim, etc.

For Conservative Judaism, I used to be under the impression that they also believed in the same giving of the Torah, but that there needs to be more flexibility on the rabbinic side of things (including application of rabbinic law, changing laws with the times, and being more flexible with interpretations of the Tanach, like maybe Noah’s flood was a metaphor). However, I once saw a video of the preeminent Conservative rabbi David Wolpe where he says that the exodus could not be historical based on archeological evidence (I believe he said he was persuaded by Israel Finkelstein). But that left me wondering, if that is acceptable in Conservative Judaism, what exactly is the fundamental basis of the faith? Is it faith that the scriptures were in some way divinely inspired? Is there a belief in any historical mandate that the Jewish people were actually commanded by God to do anything, or is it more about following in our people’s past traditions and efforts at knowing God regardless of how they developed?

Hi, apologies if this has been asked before.

​

I would like to know, given that the Christian theory of Jesus's resurrection has supporting evidence in the form of eyewitness testimony (albeit recorded several decades later in the four gospels), why does Judaism believe that Jesus did not resurrect in this way? What evidence conflicting with the Christian theory indicates that a different set of events occurred?

https://www.docdroid.net/s0qMN0R/ben-sira-on-ot-canon-again-the-unknown-pdf

During the time when Daniel was supposed to have been written, documents were dated by the reign of Nabonidus while he on numerous occassions (eg. Daniel 8) dates things by the alleged reign of Belshazaar. This seems to indicate that Daniel was not written in the 6th century.

Do you believe that the book of Daniel is historical or ahistorical and why?

The largest gathering in history was ~70 Million people (mid-estimate). Suppose all of them decided to play Russian Roulette for some reason. All of them respin the cylinder before shooting (and only shoot once) and all survive. The odds of this happening are 1.1904761904761905e-08 or .00000001904761904761905. Is this evidence of supernatural intervention?

What would convince the believers here that Judaism was untrue and for the unbelievers here what would convince you that it is, in fact, true?

Marc Shapiro in his paper on Orthodoxy (especially the MO) and Biblical Criticism shows an increasing openness to it. How do you think this will affect the Orthodox?

There's strong indication that the census of the Israelites leaving Egypt couldn't have been literal at six hundred thousand plus women and children. Granted that premise, what possible explanations could be given to the number given multiple times in Torah as 600,000. The famous answer is that Eleph also means "clans" "families" or "units" but that would mean that the Torah author (or editor) erred in the sum total of the census (Numbers 1:46). Are there any other plausible alternatives to explain the 600,000 figure?

What are the thoughts of this sub on the various arguments from Scientific Foreknowledge that have been advanced?

I'd like to have a discussion where we seek out reasons behind the laws of the Torah. I don't find room for personal growth in Judaism. The mitzvot are communicated as obligations, not values to strive for. I am not for an "all or nothing, black and white mentality". I am for a healthy mindset which for me is a "doing things in moderation and appreciating the colours mentality". So here's part of my take on this:

Intellectual stimulation: I value the importance of study and analysis in Judaism as it encourages to question and interpret absolutely everything. Nothing is taboo. Everything is up for discussion. I love challenging my mind and Judaism offers several layers/degrees of understanding various matters. The importance of study/learning can as we all know be backed up by rational reasons.

Tefila: The general (not talking specifically about Judaism) purpose of praying/meditation is to help people stay grounded and reduce anxiety/stress. I don't have any issues with anxiety or stress. However, as someone said "Meditation is for mindfulness what running is for fitness. Even if you are fit, running is good for you. And if you find a difficulty in running, that can be a way to know to discover something about your fitness that you can still improve upon." Stress blocks creativity and memory which is needed for problem-solving. In other words, I also see Jewish meditation/praying as for increasing productivity and thus confidence/a healthy mind and life.

Brachot: for staying present/mindful and appreciate the moment and being aware and grateful of what you have.

Keeping Shabbat and chagim: for quality time with family and friends + all the points mentioned above. The mind needs a break once in a while to keep up productivity.

Kosher: any suggestions for shechita, kosher animals...?

Please challenge me with rational reasons!!

Thank you.

I know shmaya v'avtalyuh. Idk if there is any historical evidence for them or if that begins with hillel hazakein. Even so, that's not so far back, and puts the age of the p'rushim at about the same as the other groups. Any info?

"All things are mortal, but the Jew. All other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?” - Mark Twain

When we look at Jewish history, we see a history where the Jewish people have defied the laws of nature and the laws of history! We have survived and impacted this world though we have been thrown out of our land not once, but twice! We have impacted the world perhaps more than any other people in history. Though few in number and spread to the four corners of the earth, we survived as a people, never assimilating into anonymity, and prospering through persecution.

WE SURVIVED THE… Egyptian Empire, Chaldean Empire, Babylonian Empire, Greek Empire, Roman Empire, Byzantine Empire, Spanish Empire, Ottoman Turkish Empire, British Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, German Empire, French Empire, Russia Empire, Soviet Empire, Nazi Empire

Coincidence? A roll of the dice? Good luck over and over again?Does it make you think that perhaps something divine is going on here? That perhaps there is a special relationship between the Almighty and the Jewish people?

One chief claim of Orthodox Judaism is that of doctrinal continuity. That the core doctrines of the movement are the same as it was in Ancient times. This claim is highly doubtful. Ben Sira is an example Second Temple author whose views on the Afterlife will be examined here. It will become evident that he doesn't believe in much of an afterlife. This would be a core doctrinal shift from Ben Sira to current Orthodox Judaism and therefore problematic.

I present the following lines in Ben Sira as evidence of disbelief in an afterlife with an emphasis on the most important parts:

My child, treat yourself well, according to your means,

and present worthy offerings to the Lord.

Remember that death does not tarry,

and the decree of Hades has not been shown to you.

Do good to friends before you die,

and reach out and give to them as much as you can.

Do not deprive yourself of a day’s enjoyment;

do not let your share of desired good pass by you.

Will you not leave the fruit of your labors to another,

and what you acquired by toil to be divided by lot?

Give, and take, and indulge yourself,

because in Hades one cannot look for luxury.

All living beings become old like a garment,

for the decree from of old is, “You must die!”

Like abundant leaves on a spreading tree

that sheds some and puts forth others,

so are the generations of flesh and blood:

one dies and another is born.

Every work decays and ceases to exist,

and the one who made it will pass away with it. (Sira 14:11-19)

Turn back to the Lord and forsake your sins;

pray in his presence and lessen your offense.

Return to the Most High and turn away from iniquity,

and hate intensely what he abhors.

Who will sing praises to the Most High in Hades

in place of the living who give thanks?

From the dead, as from one who does not exist, thanksgiving has ceased;

those who are alive and well sing the Lord’s praises.

How great is the mercy of the Lord,

and his forgiveness for those who return to him!

For not everything is within human capability,

since human beings are not immortal.

What is brighter than the sun? Yet it can be eclipsed.

So flesh and blood devise evil.

He marshals the host of the height of heaven;

but all human beings are dust and ashes. (17:25-32)

O death, how bitter is the thought of you

to the one at peace among possessions,

who has nothing to worry about and is prosperous in everything,

and still is vigorous enough to enjoy food!

O death, how welcome is your sentence

to one who is needy and failing in strength,

worn down by age and anxious about everything;

to one who is contrary, and has lost all patience!

Do not fear death’s decree for you;

remember those who went before you and those who will come after.

This is the Lord’s decree for all flesh;

why then should you reject the will of the Most High?

Whether life lasts for ten years or a hundred or a thousand,

there are no questions asked in Hades. (41:1-4)

Some verses may be proposed to support the concept of an afterlife but the cases are weak at best for this. One suggested verse is Ben Sira 11:26 but in context this is clearly not referring to post-mortem punishment but rather to how people die.

On the day of prosperity, adversity is forgotten,

and in the day of adversity, prosperity is not remembered.

For it is easy for the Lord on the day of death

to reward individuals according to their conduct.

An hour’s misery makes one forget past delights,

and at the close of one’s life one’s deeds are revealed.

Call no one happy before his death;

by how he ends, a person becomes known. (11:25-28)

Another reference used is 7:17 which reads in the Greek

Humble yourself to the utmost,

for the punishment of the ungodly is fire and worms.

However in the Hebrew (represented in some Cairo Geniza manuscripts) reads

“Lower your pride to the greatest extent as man's hope is worms.”1

Another possible reference is 21:9 which in context reads

Whoever builds his house with other people’s money

is like one who gathers stones for his burial mound.

An assembly of the wicked is like a bundle of tow,

and their end is a blazing fire.

The way of sinners is paved with smooth stones,

but at its end is the pit of Hades. (21:8-10)

This can be interpreted as referring to the death ("end") of sinners in accordance with the verses in Chapter 11. I believe it to therefore be evident that Ben Sira didn't believe in an afterlife which is as elaborated above theologically problematic.

[1] Pancratius Cornelis Beentjes, The Book of Ben Sira in Hebrew: A Text Edition of All Extant Hebrew Manuscripts and a Synopsis of All Parallel Hebrew Ben Sira Texts, 135

I was thinking of having a DebateJudaism Wiki. What do you guys think of that idea?

I'm looking for someone who can justify the Reform claim of the inapplicability of the mitzvos nowadays when the Torah mandates in several places that it, or certain laws are a "chukat olam" (eternal law)?

What are your reasons for belief/disbelief of the claims of Orthodox Judaism?

Specifically the following propositions

- A God defined as a being external to time who can take control of nature to cause miracles etc. exists

-That said God chooses to use such power

-That metaphysical personhood in the form of a soul that can be rewarded/punished for its actions in the afterlife exists

-That such God gave a holy book, namely the Torah

-That such God gave over an interpretation termed the oral Torah which was faithfully transmitted without interruption from Rebbe to Talmid from Matan Torah until today

-That this holy book constitutes a reflection of God's moral nature and that he therefore enforces it and as such it is binding.