This may not be the perfect forum for this but I figured I might get better answers here than the general Christianity forum.

I grew up going to church. In my adult life, I became more “spiritual” rather than “religious”. I believe there is too much order and design for waves arms all of this to just have happened by chance. These days I tend to believe God/The Universe/deities of other religions are all rooted in the same source.

Something that never made sense to me is why does God have to send people to hell? Why does He need humans to profess their love of him to be let in to Heaven? If He loves us so much why wouldn’t he just let us all in? It seems silly that an all powerful being needs humans to profess he is king, almost like it’s for his ego.

Secondly, if we’re going with the thought that one religion is right and the others are wrong, how are Christians so sure their God is the right one? What if the “God” of the Bible is a demon trying to trick them into worshipping him?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

I don't mean it in a depressive way, but actually the opposite. Like you suddenly realize that you are alive and conscious, for a second you think that there is no way all of this is just the act of randomness, and I don't mean to necessarily imply God as of Jehova, Allah, or whatever, but more like that there has to be something big going on for us to be here, something to which we don't have any track of on earth, certainly nothing that could be explained by human religions here on earth. I think this is why I lean more to being an agnostic theist.

Hi there.

I’m the only person in my family who is agnostic. The others either are very religious Christian’s or like to call themselves that. In the last 5-10 years or so I’ve noticed my big sister and I drifting apart because she and her husband got back into church and when I say back into church I mean VERY into it. I can tell they’re judgmental of me because I’m not and I’m bisexual and have had a same sex partner.

Obviously things are contentious right now politically especially with evangelical“Christian’s” in the south…I’m sure my entire family is voting for the “pro life” candidate. Truly everything that they do and believe in is what drove me away from religion to begin with - it’s the opposite of Christlike. Totally hypocritical.

Well I logged onto Facebook today which I don’t do often and saw 1.) that they posted a picture with their “I voted” stickers 🙄 and 2.) that their oldest son, my oldest nephew who is 13 has decided to be baptized on Sunday (yes this Sunday) and they said to let them know if you wanted to come.

It does bother me that their kids are being indoctrinated because my sister did say once that she wanted them to grow up and make their own decisions about their beliefs and instead it’s felt like my sister and brother in law forced it upon them.

You’d think that my sister and brother in law would want their kids aunt (me) to be there for the baptism. Is a big thing in their religion, obviously. But they’re just so judgmental. I don’t think they really care for me to be there and I am pretty sure they think I’m living in sin and going to hell.

Should I pretend I didn’t see they put it on Facebook and just not go? Technically I wasn’t invited…also I should note that I left the church because of religious trauma and I’m not sure how I’ll feel being in this environment again.

I've been a Christian basically all my life, but now I'm 17 and starting to question my beliefs. It has been like 4 or 5 months since I started questioning, and seeing how some things didn't made sense or were absurd to me.

And as I tried to know if I actually believed or not I just saw more and more things who made me go to the atheist side, like realizing I was believing out of fear of going to hell. It's not like I don't like going to church, the one I go is a really good one, but I never really had an actual interest on the bible, I always think of the bible and Christianism to be really but really boring. My parents are not happy about how I am so uninterested on it, and how i can't remember what was talked about at church, or me not wanting to sing because I don't like gospel. Its getting really tiring for me having to lie because I don't have the courage to be honest, and it's really stressing since we always end making debates ans I lose my patience.

The only people of my family who actually know I'm agnostic are two of my cousins and my aunt(It's my grandmother but I call her aunt since she's my Step-father mom but anyway) and they were supe comprehensive and didn't cared about that, but I know my parents will react badly.

Ps: Just warning, my parents are really chill, the only problem is when it comes to church, besides church, I don't really have any problems with them!

I'm in this boat, but sometimes struggle to put it into words

Hi,

I’m going to share my response to the question and I would love to see others.

After deliberating for about 3 months I’ve finally accepted my agnostic identity. I’m not sure there is a God but if there is one I don’t believe He is of any religion as they’ve been advertised.

The 2022/2023 academic year was a struggle for me, I was in my last year of sixth form (y13) and was about to do exams that would determine whether I would get into medical school- to put a long story short I had no faith or confidence in my ability to prepare for exams and my home life was such a mess that I had no real support in my endeavours.

So, I put my faith in God - that was all that I had. When I finally got my grades I saw it as confirmation that God was real (I think this derived from my low self esteem).

The 2023/24 academic year was my first year at uni (currently in 2nd yr) and this academic year is what really challenged my faith. I had a friend (basically the most devout Christian I knew) that revealed to me she was a prophet and God was telling her a bunch of shit. Telling me to delete some of my old friend’s numbers and it was an “urgent message”. She also gave me advice “led by the Holy Spirit”. Following her advice and messages from God left me feeling alone, isolated, confused etc etc. (please note I am HEAVILY summarising). This all took place from like Sept 2023 till like Jan 2024 - all the “advice” and “messages”.

Fast forward into like March/April-ish 2024 I started to wonder what the purpose of the messages were. If I deleted my friends’ numbers I would still be able to contact them, they’d still be able to contact me etc. So the message, made no sense - I confronted her with this fact and she had no response. In fact, I confronted her with many logical fallacies to which she would not respond or would tell me that I couldn’t understand.

Also, my old pastor gave a “prophecy” to a member of the congregation telling her that her husband will be saved. He then told me that if this particular prophecy did not come to pass that doesn’t mean it was false which was a direct contradiction of what it states in the Bible.

I know that humans aren’t perfect, but this really had me questioning - what is my faith based on?

Many people online give testimonies with the purpose of increasing others’ faith in God but how can I trust what anybody says?

What authority does the Bible have? People say it was Holy Spirit inspired but so many people throw around the name of the Holy Spirit to give their words significance (e.g the pastors’ “prophecy” and the advice my friend gave me) that that phrase means nothing to me. Why doesn’t the Qur’an have authority? Or the Hadiths?

All of my beliefs were based on what I’d been told, not what I’d experienced. I believe that God helped me pass my exams, but what it it was me studying that helped me pass my exams?

Why won’t God grow missing limbs? Is it because he can’t? That doesn’t align with his proclaimed character. So if he can, why doesn’t he?

There are just so many questions about God that nobody but God has the authority to answer. For example, if as it states in scripture that God wants nobody to go to hell, why would he create us in the first place knowing it’s inevitable for people to go to hell?

Why would he tell Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil knowing that that’s the only thing they’ll be thinking of (like when people tell you not to think of a dancing elephant, that’s what you think of - which is how God created us to think) why would he condemn them from disobeying him if they had no knowledge of good and evil yet?

Some people may blame me for believing my friend or my old pastor but what about the story of Doubting Thomas? Or the fact that faith is basically based on fear (hell being the penalty) - I used to blame myself for believing them but with more perspective I realise that’s what I’d been conditioned to do.

Anybody got interesting stories that wanna share?

Also, just a side note listening to the advise of my friend and church doctrine really damaged by ability to make friends in Leeds so if anyone around here is going through anything similar hmu, maybe we can share stories thoughts etc. and learn and grow together.

So... I've been with my husband for 8 years (married for 2) so we know eachother super well, have always clicked. But all of a sudden, he is going to bible studies, and curious about the religion he was raised to be. There is NO problem with wanting to explore what you may believe in but I'm scared how this might affect our relationship.. might affect different views that we have always agreed on.. I don't want to be pushed into the Christian religion. It's one of my least favorite things about the religion. (People forcing it down your throats, I respect it as it's own thing important to others) I'd be the only agnostic person in the family if he goes Christian.. he spends less time with me to go to these studies that we used to make fun of together.. should I even talk to him about this? I'm scared I'll come off as a bitch, or judgemental.. I just don't want a specific one religion in my life. It's not who I am.. and I'm scared how this change in my husband will affect us.

As an experiment, I looked at the English language and took some words out of it with religious or spiritual significance. Specifically, "evil" "live" and "love".

I decided to replace each letter I with the number 1. I then decided to replace each letter O with 0.

I chose the message, "Evil, Live, Love, Live" because that lined up the 1's and 0's to convert to 11 as an integer and made a coherent statement.

Evil = 1
Live = 1
Love = 0
Live = 1

1101 in binary converts to the number 11, a prime number. I got one for the number 13, as well.

13 is "Live, Love, Evil, Live".

I just thought this was interesting. Does anyone know any other things like this? As an agnostic that is open to something "out there", I see significance in this. But then again, it could all be just like another Cydonia.

I’m a PhD student researching the relationship between religiosity and “adulting” behaviors among Gen Z emerging adults for my dissertation.

If you are 18-29 years old, whether you consider yourself religious or non-religious, please take this brief, completely confidential survey.

https://s.surveyplanet.com/l8wker4e

The idea that the universe is fine tuned for us is proof of God because of the precisely small amount of chance of it ever occurring is a bit strange to me simply because of the fact that

a. the universe is infinite and can potentially have gone through these trillions of cycles on end without fine tune-ing

b. If it weren't fine tuned we simply wouldn't exist as we do and when we do *happen* to exist it is 100% guaranteed always to be in the one that is fine-tuned for us..

Thus, we are guaranteed to land in this argument when we exist and otherwise, we would not exist to debate this.

What do you all think?

I've always been curious as to why those who follow a religion are so certain they are right? From my understanding there is no proof. Maybe I am a little jealous that they can have blind faith like that and i cannot. Where it use to scare me not having faith i find an odd comfort in it now.

I am an agnostic who was raised as a Hindu and explored other traditions such as Buddhism and Christianity. I also did a degree in genetics and have been a science nerd all my life.

By agnostic I really mean that I think we are at somewhat of an infancy in terms of understanding the universe and the nature of reality.

This is not to say that I rule out there could be some sort of a Supreme Being and I could even conceive that it could be natural that we mortals would have some sort of connection to that being engrained in us.

At the same time I think it’s equally plausible that religion is something we manufactured just to survive. Learning about cargo cults is one example of how this may be the case.

When I did believe in God though I found the religious practices in Hinduism favoured detachment. For me that was never a great fit because I suffered from considerable childhood trauma and a lack of secure attachment. I am still working through those issues today.

So one thing that has often appealed to me in Christianity is the sense of community in church. I attended a baptism on the weekend and the songs were uplifting, you could see members of the congregation formed deep bonds with each other, cared for and supported each other.

I could see how the calls to accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour could be a path to secure attachment. A part of me wished I could do that. But I am in my heart an agnostic and I know it would be disingenuous.

Yet I do long for the aspects of secure attachment to the community church seems to provide. And it seems to easily accessible as well, ie: I could probably try to find special interest groups and what not that could offer a sense of community but they often have felt pretty transient and hit or miss.

I once tried the freemasons as well but it was far too much of a socially conservative organization for me.

So, I am wondering if there are other church like communities that agnostics may be drawn toward and I would be interested in learning about them. One possibility that has come up for me is the unitarian church, however, it would be a bit of a trek for me to go there.

This is a long one. But maybe an important one for people undecided.

I’d like to begin with my backstory. I grew up in South Carolina surrounded by Christianity, particularly southern baptists christianity. Southern baptists are very good at getting you to drink the fool aid cool aid through inconspicuous means. Over time I developed a sense of what god could be and I wasn’t adverse to it. Everyone at church was friendly, I made friends in my neighborhood who I played with often. And by this point in my childhood the indoctrination had already done its work, I presupposed god in all aspects of my life. I woke up everyday believing he existed.

At about 8 years old things began to change. People at church put more pressure on to have a strict life of christian morals and ethics. That sin was bad. It was unfamiliar to me but it was too late. At 9 the full might of the wrath of god was made clear to me, I was a disgusting little sinner, no longer an innocent child. I was destined for damnation and hell, I was no longer jesus’s little friend. And there was nothing I could do as the newborn degenerate in the eyes of god, to try and make something of my life without him. I had two choices. Conform and have heaven, or live an honest life without Christ and have hell, forever. Both of these options were disgusting and terrifying to a child. I could either be stuck at gods feet forever subservient and maybe not even be myself anymore, or suffer an eternity of torture and anguish.

As the years passed and the hooks dug deeper I tried to reject it all. I was angry. But I lost the battle quickly and conceded that I had no choice but to defend my beliefs out of fear and I had to hope god would understand.

At the beginning of college about 4 years ago, I finally got access to the full brunt of the vast information network of the world. Everything changed and all these emotions resurged and I felt like maybe I had a chance to get answers. I began to look into what the world had to offer. I saw that there were many religions, that believed different things. The more I looked at them the more shattered my consciousness became. I decided I had to face the dragon of revelation. For the first time in my life I faced the fear of reading the Bible cover to cover.

I was disgusted….. I saw death, the slaughter of the Amalekites and canaanites. Slavery, justified. Not only how to acquire them but how to make slaves of your own people. I saw women be worth “somewhere between a house and a horse”, the selling of daughters and the raping of women and the consequence 50 shilling. The acquisition of sex slaves forced to marry, or be stoned to death if not a virgin. The dashing of babies on rocks if born from heathens. I read the destruction of tribes with god smiling at death. That he is a jealous god ready to enact vengeance. A god that relishes sacrifice and power. A god, that upon the rediscovery of the most precious laws known to man, killed all that saw them and all that inhabited the area for miles. A god that allowed 42 children to be mauled to death by bears. At least once he killed you in the old testament you were dead.

I studied the historicity of the Bible and became enthralled with Bart ehrman and other various biblical scholars. Learning that hell developed over time was crippling to me. I had been lied to for so long. I saw through study how dualism came from Zoroastrianism and other cultures subsumed by Jewish philosophy. I learned that plato created the idea of the immortal soul, and I saw its implementation into the religion. I saw the apocalypse of Peter written based off surrounding religions and a human made concept, torture, I learned that torture is something that humans do, we made the rules of torture and implemented them. I learned about how many churches decided on the anonymous gospels and made a canon and rejected others. That Augustine of hippo finalized the canon and added ideas from the divine comedy and Dante’s informing inspired by the apocalypse of Peter. My world was shattered.

But this was not the end. I learned about ethics and morality and how we make our own morals. It’s not from god. That over hundreds of thousands of years we created a social contract conducive to survival and wellbeing, and we created an intricate system over time of good and bad actions that can be flexible but also necessary. That we can take basic ideas such as

1.) life is preferred to death 2.) health is preferable to sickness 3.) happiness is preferable to sadness

We can take simple ideas like these and create a flexible system of morality that can be used to create cultures. This allowed me to discover why there are so many denominations of Christianity. Because there are fundamental ideas that we hold that contend with ideas in Christianity and people decide not to believe them, it’s “cherrypicking”. I also compared religions. Why is the Hindu moral system better than the christian one, why is the Shinto system better than the Buddhist one, why is Islam better than the Sikh system, etc…… it turns out all of these were developed based off of ideas we already had before the religion was created. Morality predates religion.

I also learned that free will is a fickle thing. And that individual decision making seems to be debatable. But outside of ourselves nothing is willed by us. We don’t decide our parents or where we are born (but our birthplace decides our religion and culture). We don’t decide if we’re born in an area with clean water or not. Or if there will be plenty of food and resources.

I am not convinced the christian god or any god exists. And I await the day that evidence is presented. But I’m not counting on it. I hope more people begin to wake up. I hope more people see the destruction and savagery that religion brings with it. Whether it be in the background pulling strings or on the forefront of war. Eventually it needs to fade away, the abrahamic religions most of all. We can already see the benefits of secular society in Europe. We see that life flourishes and people are happier and more prosperous. There are more opportunities for people to find what they enjoy in life without economic distress or the prospect of theocracy in the near future. A theocracy that actively challenges bodily autonomy and what information should be in the science, history, and ethics classroom. I will be at the door to stop them. I believe in people and I hope that secularism will win. And once the religious extreme sizzle out, the world will be a better place.

It offers no knowledge and gives nothing to believe in. I guess it reflects lately how I feel about the whole thing. Even though I've been agnostic most my life, I've never looked at it this negatively.

The one thing that I have pulled from my whole experience is that the meaning of life is to live life, and it is with that purpose that I carry on.

Yeshua and Yahweh are alike.. regarding morals, mind, wills and desires. Jesus Died on the cross to save us all from eternal fire... He let himself being tortured and killed In 1 day and rose back from the dead In 3 days In hopes It would save us even tho he already knows most of us will still end up burning in hell for eternity because of Adam and Eve... Yahweh and Jesus Insisted that we still must exist despite knowing our path while claiming to be merciful and loving. Our suffering made us have to sin. A thief wouldn't steal if he wasn't deprived of basic resources. A murderer wouldn't kill if society didn't built hatred In his heart. The all knowing God knows all reasons behind every sins. Yes we are held responsible for our fate but our logic and morality Is based on experiences and every one of us Is built by traits according to our environment in which we can't decide. We'll have no other choice but to sin due to the nature of life's hardships.

God created logical beings while Insisting we must surrender our lives In blind faith. And the consequences of unbelief Is forever torment.

God wrote the book of "truth" in hopes that everyone will be saved, but failed to specify and establish which religion is the correct path. Billions of good people will be thrown In hell for simply being born in the wrong belief. And billions more for simply being logical beings who only want to live like the animals who can do whatever they want and doesn't have to suffer God's wrath for it because they weren't made by his image.

Growing up I considered myself to be a “born-again” Christian. As I child I went to a first baptist church, and as an adult I believed in the pentecostal teachings, which embarrassingly does mean I believed in speaking in tongues.

During those pentecostal years I was absolutely excited to share the news of Jesus with everyone. I would travel with a friend of mine and we would preach to random people on the street, I spoke at different churches in the area. Heck I even almost went to BIBLE COLLEGE.

Now I don’t know exactly when I started having doubts. I don’t know if those doubts were always there or if they came about later. But I must give credit to Jacklyn Glenn on youtube because it was her reaction to a Jehovah’s Witness cartoon that made me start questioning God’s existence.

Things like contradictions in the bible, and would a loving God allow child abuse, etc definitely affected my belief, but I think what finally made me reject my Christianity was when I realized the only reason I ever believed in the first place was because my parents/grandparents told me.

But while I was no longer Christian, I still considered the possibility of a God or Creator of some kind. Unfortunately no matter how hard I tried I could never find any evidence of God’s existence and so I became atheist.

And for years up until recently I considered myself to be 100% atheist and proclaimed myself as such. So why do I have doubts now? Why do I say I’m 99% atheist? I certainly don’t have any scientific proof or even personal reason to believe in a Deity or Creator.

The reason of my doubt is actually Life itself. Yes I do believe in evolution and believe science explains pretty much everything in our universe and how it works. But I also can’t believe in something (scientific or religious) without some kind of evidence to back it up.

I’ve heard lots of possibilities of the origin of life like maybe bacteria was on an asteroid, maybe chemical compounds were activated by lighting, etc. Unfortunately none of these, have ever been nor may ever be proven. Here is what I know about Life though-

Life creates life. Whether through a species reproducing, or through cells dividing, we can say without a doubt that life is created by things that are alive. And so I have to also consider certain possibilities like maybe there was something alive when the Big Bang took place, maybe there was life before that.

And even if there was always life in the universe it doesn’t prove or disprove God’s existence. It could be God who always existed, it could be an alien species. It could even be a simulation, which I will admit makes me laugh because if you do think we are in a simulation then what exactly are you going to do about it?

Anyways, it bothers me that there’s all these possibilities, and yet we have no way of testing them and may never. I ask myself if trying to find the answer actually matters if the answer isn’t possible to find? But then how do I know whether the answer is impossible?

If you made it this far, thank you for reading and please tell me if you have or have had any of the same questions/experiences that I have. Thank you again!

Go…

I have thought about this for a while and I wonder if religion stole God from us. Is that a crazy thought?

The Ones Who Refuse To Believe

             Faith. A shallow yet powerful word. It is not driven by motivation nor is it made by persuasion, but it is done voluntarily by humanity. Mankind has been putting up faith to the one true "creator" that they believe on. They hold knowledge that a god had made them human, and serves that god to the full extent for the exchange of eternity of peace in the so called afterlife. Otherwise they would find themselves to be in an infinite cycle of pain on where the devil stands mighty if they contradict the commands of the so called "Savior".

                   Heaven and hell had gotten me thinking whether this omniscient being is really known merciful, if he was why would he punish the curious, had he made us out of love, or had he made us so one can love him. The known god does not gain anything from hate, but disremembers the existence of men who oppose his power and his appearance. The people who chose not to follow has reasons, and yet they are to die sinful for acknowleding that this god does not exist. To have faith onto a character made by a book is unbelievable enough than putting a lemon in the eye, for the thought that humanity might have been brainwashed by an ancient scripture full of stories of how life was made and how men were created out of clay. It is impossible, yet half of the world was born and bred believing that a god made out of light is looking down to them watching their very steps through out their whole time being alive, We refuse to believe because god did not create us, we created god.

               Disobedience. a long lettered word, yet to comprehend the phrase, far from difficult. Many have died because of it, but they died knowing that they will only live even with the dishonesty of having faith.

I’m not a fan of either the Christian god exists or no god exists. It just feels so good to imagine a god that doesn’t threaten you with eternal torment if you don’t obey him. In my head I have an idea of what a true loving benevolent god would be like. Hell is just not compatible with a loving god, even if I was a Christian I still won’t believe he’s a loving god. Im thinking about using magic mushrooms again to expand my mind for a bit to hopefully understand what god is really like(or could be like) when you don’t restrict him with religion, even if it’s all in my head. I just would like at least some temporary comfort.

OK so by definition I guess I'd be considered agnostic but idk where to seek advice on this weird problem we have lol like I have a BA in Cultural Studies, and a minor is Religious Studies so I know a little about a lot as far as cultural spiritualism. I love religion, it's fascinating to me. I was atheist until I went to a Buddhist temple and actual felt something. The energy was awesome, now I'm more agnostic.

OK so my family has what we call the "white curse" (not racial, last name is literally white lol). So 3 generations have had the worst luck you could imagine. We are normal, educated, hard working people. But like shit just keeps happening to us. Like absurd bs that I've never heard of another family going through so many traumas. It's just ridiculous. Just in the past 3 months we've flooded twice, once from a vacant apartment above that maintenance /management couldn't find a key for to turn the water off. Once from a hurricane.... In a non flood zone. I broke/tore something in my foot about a week after flood #2 ,shit has fallen on my foot from a bracket that was 3/4 as tall as the thing that fell on my messed up foot (this is just me and my husband & daughter, not even going into what everyone has dealt with).

Now I'm not for organized religion but it's gotten to the point I'm just like done. This shit is not normal. 1 drowning incident with my nephew, my high-school sweetheart died in a bizzare car accident, then like kinda normal bs like the car gets paid off and you lower insurance and then get totaled a week later/laptop breaks a weke after warranty (happened freaking twice to me) type of shit. But like constantly, wth. Cars totaled because repairs were (no shit) 250 more than what worth was. OK so here's where I ask... Who Tf can break generational curses for not religious people lol I'm definitely energy based type of thinking. It makes more sense to my rational mind in a weird way. So none of us are pessimistic so it's not like attracts like type of scenerio. Most cleansing I've seen is xtian and that, we are not, and not even trying to join a church for this. Most of us are agnostic, a few atheist, but even the atheist believe in the curse lol super weird scenerio I know. Not a nutter I promise. Just at this point idk, it's just gotten to absurdedity. When that shampoo bottle fell on my foot from a secure location in a freaking bracket, I kind of just have had enough. If this isn't where to seek, please lmk. Just over all of it at this point. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk lmao

He claims he doesn't care that I'm agnostic and that he's come to terms that I may never change my beliefs. The past couple months, however, he's been bringing up religion at least once a week. Whether this is my views on specific Bible passages, whether or not I attend church with him (and if so, how often. He seems to want me to go every time he does), Bible study, and so forth. I also recently found out he's been posting about our relationship on religious subs specifically asking if he should be worried about my salvation or not and whether he, as a Christian, should try to convert me. The wild thing is, his family is barely religious and his own brother is agnostic. They approve of us being together. Yet he seems to have an unhealthy obsession with the topic of my salvation in particular I'm at such a loss. I'm questioning if this is something we can work through or if it's doomed to fail.

The whole basis for religion seems very manipulative. The only reason I wonder if it could be the truth is because 85% of the U.S. believes, so who am I to question the beliefs of those who are far more intelligent than me?

My parents are firm Christians and I recently (in the past six months) have finally admitted to myself that I don't believe in god. I thought it would be a lot easier to fake it but church has become so difficult. I know it would break their hearts if I told them and I don't think they would ever see me the same way, although I know they would still love me. So should I tell them? I am close to my mom especially and this would hurt them. They will think they failed me. I don't have a single person in my life I can ask about this and it's super lonely. Any advice or support is appreciated.

I recently watched this debate about god between Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty. At one point they debated morality with Peterson arguing it must come from a belief in god, and Dillahunty arguing you can have secular morality without belief in god.

I was on the same page as Dillahunty until he explained:

"I think you can have a perfectly acceptable foundation for secular morality even if it fundamentally centers around selfishness... I would rather not have my stuff stolen and it's in my best interest to encourage others not to do that, so I will not steal stuff and I will work with others to ensure the people who steal stuff are punished."

The problem I have with this is a foundation for morality that is based on selfishness is almost guaranteed to fail, and indeed we see it fail in our secular societies all the time which is why we have prisons full of criminals all over the world. If a person's morality is based on selfishness then as soon they perceive an immoral act to be in their self-interest more than encouraging others to be moral and more than avoiding possible punishment, then they will commit the immoral act.

Deriving morality from god is no better. Morality laws in religious societies tend to be oppressive, intolerant, sexist, and/or cruel. And selfishness and punishment are still necessary elements of those societies.

Where do you believe your morality comes from? Is it based on god or selfishness? Is there another motivator for morality?

While I don't hold spiritual beliefs, because I'm simply unable to believe them, I don't think people who do hold them are inherently wrong for doing so. Not every religious person holds discriminatory opinions, or tries to enforce their belief on others. That's only a loud minority of extremist bigots. The anti-theist activists in the r/atheism sub-reddit will literally try to convince you that all people with religious beliefs are essentially bad. I have a lot of religious friends, and none of them are how they describe religious people. They're reasonable, and don't discriminate against me for being atheist... and gay. It makes me sad thinking there are people out there who would call them out for simply being spiritual.

While I do agree that politics and religion should be seperate, and young kids shouldn't be taught about religion, I don't think it's detrimental to society if people have the freedom to believe. For some, it can help them cope with trauma, or simply give them hope in times of peril. They're not dumb or unproductive for believing in something that can't be proven. They don't claim to know that the content of their belief is real, but simply choose to think it is, as it gives them a feeling of comfort, which is perfectly fine. People may choose to believe in something beyond this universe, and no universal law prohibits them from thinking beyond reality within their own thoughts. It's not essentially harmful if they shelter themselves from reality, as long as they don't detach from it. (Not to be confused with derealization.) They aren't necessarily violating scientific laws if they believe in something that exists outside of the universe that is not bound to its harsh restrictions, as these laws only exist within the universe. I myself don't believe in it, based on the fact that there's no evidence, but people are free to speculate, theorize, and philosophize. As living beings, they are allowed to have their own interpretations as to why reality exist, and nobody should dictate them not to have them. I personally believe the universe exists due to sheer randomness, but another person might believe otherwise, which is legit. Really, we'll never know whether there's a meaning as to why reality exists. Maybe it just exists because... it randomly does? Additionally, it's worth mentioning that some people are simultaneously scientists and theists, further demonstrating that they can indeed seperate their beliefs from our observable reality.

However, militant anti-theists insist that religious people are deluded, and see themselves as morally superior in opposition to theists, and want theists to stop believing 'for their own good'. What's the point in wanting to radically forbid people to believe? It's people's choice, after all. You can judge belief systems, change religious institutions and remove their influence, that's fair and justified, but you can't change people minds. After all, people are imperfect products of random evolution who display emotions, including anxiety and hope, and militant anti-theists should be knowing about this fact more than anyone else.

Hoping, and believing, isn't the same thing, either. Even I, as an atheist, who doesn't believe in an after-life, still have a spark of hope for it to exist, despite knowing that it's extremely unlikely, and there's no evidence for any quantum entanglement effect to transform our consciousness. It doesn't mean I'm any less of an atheist just for thinking we'll never be 100% certain about anything relating the universe's origin. I've literally seen an anti-theist calling out agnostics in that sub-reddit, saying that agnosticism isn't enough, and that agnostics are no better than theists. That honestly reminds so much of how vegans say vegetarians aren't enough...

I've observed they usually drag mental illness into the debate. Since they think of theists as 'lesser', while simultaneously calling them mentally ill, it gives me major ableism vibes. Some of them also tend to say that gender identity is a religion because there's apparently no scientific basis to it according to them, and compare trans people with theists, because they're 'not scientific' for experiencing gender dysphoria, despite it not even being a choice. This is making them no better than right-wing theists who stigmatize trans people. Because just like them, they ignore the neurobiology of gender dysphoria, the distinction between sex and gender, and the fact that there's more to sexual anatomy than the mere presence of chromosomes (gene expression matters, too!). Unlike deities, trans & intersex people are observable, yet anti-theists choose to not believe in the science of gender dysphoria? What are they trying to acheive? I thought they were only against things that are not real?

It seems as if militant anti-theists convulsively want people to adjust to their narrow image of what people should be like. Anti-theists have misconceptions making them believe that all theists are unscientific and irrational. If you try to make an anti-theist aware of their unjustified bias against theists in the r/atheism sub-reddit, you'll get downvoted into oblivion and referred to as a 'theist'. First of all, 'theist' isn't an insult, secondly, why would you use it to refer to someone who is an atheist and just pointing out you're being disrespectful? Is it because you think that only theists have morals, and if an atheist shows moral behaviour, it means they're automatically a theist? Well, I'm an atheist, but just because you're too, don't expect me to buy into your craze. You can't make me believe that I have to hate theists. Despite the fact that I don't understand what it's like being a theist, I don't hold any bias against someone for being theist. I'd treat them in the same way as I treat an atheist: respectfully. It seems like anti-theists want to shut down any opposing train of thought, especially when you point out their disrespect towards people based on their spiritual beliefs.

To be fair, I must admit I've also had an attitude towards religious people like that when I was a kid. The difference is that I have grown out of this phase of irrational prejudice. The loud minority of anti-theism activists really gives the normal atheists who couldn't care less about other people's beliefs a bad reputation. No one should face stigmatization based on their beliefs, or their absence of beliefs. No matter whether you're atheist, agnostic, or theist... you all are a valid!

I have seen recently, the feelings about the world are not good. I am making a post to say… it will pass and it will be ok. As I drive down the highway on the way to a dinner I am not absolutely enthusiastic about, I look at the foliage to the sides of the road. The sun setting down showing a beautiful gold green on the trees. I couldn’t help think to myself. Climate change will probably do away with much of the beauty at some point. Religion will poison the morals and systems we have tried so hard to create. In hopes of a better world. And I decided that I have to force myself to enforce some hope of the world. That the secular few of us will be heard, that we will eventually join the EU and the UK in a greater secular world. One worth having children in. I hope that even if climate change cannot be mitigated (and at this point it’s a very slim chance) that technology will give us the tools to reverse and recover some of the world. There are many putting their lives on the line to make sure as much preservation as possible is achieved. I hope that what little space exploration we can attempt that we will attempt and that we will continue to wonder at the cosmos. And I just want to say. Regardless of what happens in the world around us. There are those of us that will continue to be a force for wonderful things.

I hope that everyone is taking care of their mental health. Take a break from the news, you already know who you will vote for, just turn off the rest, you don’t need it in your head. It’s ok to not be inundated by political information. Go sit in the sun for a minute and just breathe. These problems will pass.

If you’re struggling please seek some help. I am always open to conversation and I have many programs to refer people too. Sometimes it’s just nice to hear “it’s going to be ok, and you are appreciated” and I know this is through text language but it is sincere when i say it.

While I have always felt quite anti-religious if thats how you say it, in more recent times after moving to a catholic school and becoming close with many people that have a faith I feel like something is wrong. This feels stupid to say but it feels like theres something wrong with me for holding this disbelief in the religions people follow.

First of all, I want to really thank the people who responded to my last post. I'm sorry if my lack of replies is rude. I'm still reading through everything slowly because I've been having a really hard time losing my faith.

I don't want to mention any strict names, but I was watching the interview of a very devout Christian musician claiming the only way to escape hell fire is to give every aspect of your being to Jesus. I've heard this all my life, and its made me feel like my chest was rotting every time. Five months ago I interviewed to work at a summer camp (which was mostly Christian, but the staff really just want to ensure the kids have fun), and even though I expressed that I was doing the most to accept God, the camp director ridiculed me over the phone for half an hour. I was told that all I need to do is open the door when God knocks. He doesn't understand that I've opened this fake illusionary door which doesn't exist hundreds if not thousands of times and things are right back the way they were before the next morning.

I love writing stories. Why give my life to God to then be forced to make every story I'll ever make about Jesus and him? There's no meaning in existence if I can't write. I'd rather die than live by someone else's rules. I'd rather burn in hell for eternity than live by someone else's rules. One must be prepared to accept the possibility of hell, for however much they can conceive it, and I've grown tired of this.

I am very agnostic and have been so 4 years now. Nobody in my family accepts this and almost nobody in my life that I grew up around accepts this. It's starting to get really old. The only reason my mom is okay now is because she doesn't like the option of losing me if she isn't okay with my beliefs. I've made it very clear to her that it's my beliefs or nothing when it comes to having access to me. I'm starting to notice it feels almost like a disease or mental psychosis when it comes to Christians actively going out of their way to argue with me and disagree unnecessarily. Why am I not allowed to have my own belief system but they are? They just can't grasp that concept. I feel like it's a pretty easy concept and try to explain it in a way that what if I were a different religion that they wholeheartedly disagreed with and I constantly shoved it down their throats, in the same way that they do to me. I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be okay with that so why should I be, but it falls on deaf ears. And usually these people are older than me so if I argue and stand up for myself then it turns into me being disrespectful even though I am also an adult.

I just reached out to a college friend that I hadn't spoken to in a few years because I got a Facebook notification for a memory picture. He's very nice and I always enjoyed speaking with him, but we met in the Christian club when I was a freshman in college years ago. The conversation started off normal catching up to see who was doing what and then he asked me what church I go to and how church is going and I responded by telling him that I was agnostic. His immediate response was to tell me that he was so sorry about that and that there's a place in jesus's heart for everybody. What even the fuck... What if I was Satanist and told him that there's a place for everybody in Satan's heart, I'm pretty sure he would be mortified and so insulted that the prospect of someone trying to recruit him to a religion that he completely disagrees with.

My grandmother is also annoyingly religious and holy roller, and I've made it clear to her multiple times that I will not tolerate her preaching at me, though the message has been sent through my mom since she is very hard to talk to and she will cut me off if I tried to tell her myself. I love my grandmother and I enjoy talking to her but she can't seem to be able to not preach at me, so I will go months without speaking to her on the phone and then she will call my mom and have her guilt trip me about not calling her because she's older and she won't be around forever for me to talk to🫤🙄. My mom gets annoyed with me when I try to express my anger about this letting her know that my grandmother is putting me between a rock and a hard place. Of course I enjoy talking to her but I keep trying to reiterate that it is a boundary that I will only speak to her if she respects that I don't want to be preached at. Whenever I talk to her about anything going on like someone being in the hospital for example she will tell me "I know you don't believe in prayer but I do" as a response to the people doing better from surgery instead of The logical idea that it was the doctors that went to school for 16 plus years to heal them 🙄🙄🙄🙄. She also doesn't have much of an income coming in since she's older and needs help with money sometimes and when I was working a good job I told her I would start sending her a few dollars every month for help, and so I sent her money by zelle one month because I had the extra money and as soon as I got on the phone she ranted at me about it being God that gave her this money and that it was a blessing. And I tried to tell her no it was me who worked hours to get money and pay taxes on it and sent it to her not God and that she knows I don't believe that so why can't she just take the money without saying anything. She cut me off and continue to preach at me and let me know that it was a blessing whether or not I believed it. Like it's almost painful for her to not fucking say anything. That was the last time I ever sent her money. My cousin is the same way, I spoke to him and let him know that I wasn't religious when he asked and he got so upset and flustered and made a comment that I shouldn't say things like that and that I was making fun of God for not being religious. He sounded almost like he was about to cry come at like be so fucking for real 🫤🫤🫤🫤

I wish somebody would really study this and see if it's actually a psychological phenomenon like religious psychosis or something because it's unnatural how illogical some people are when it comes to Christianity. They can't grasp basic concepts that apply to them and they don't even follow their own rules as a matter of fact.

Okay I'm done ranting, sorry have no one else to talk to about this so that's why I came to reddit to rant.