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Previously: Anderson Packers, Baltimore Bullets, Boston Celtics, Chicago Stags, Denver Nuggets, Fort Wayne Pistons, Indianapolis Olympians

Next: New York Knicks

I’ve seen the odds in the ‘65 finals listed as 2-1 in favor of the Celtics. In ‘69, oddsmakers favored the Lakers against the Celtics by anywhere from 7-5 to 11-5.

Anyone know the others?

Apparently in 1983, Yugoslavia and 19-year-old Dražen Petrović played an exhibition game against UNC and 20-year-old Michael Jordan (picture). I say "apparently" because I can't confirm the year or their ages from the picture. I'm curious about a few things with this.

1. Does anyone have any details--including box score or stats--from this 1983 match-up?

2. Was this the first time the pair played each other?

3. Was this the only time they faced each other in a game before the 1989-90 NBA season? In case you're wondering, Yugoslavia and the US did not face each other in the 1984 Olympics.

4. Were they on the court at the same time during the Bulls and Trail Blazers first game against each other in the 1989-90 season on November 21, 1989? Petrović played only 2 minutes for Portland, and Jordan played 36. Or were the pair first on an NBA floor together on February 23, 1990, when Petrović played 17 minutes and Jordan 35?

To me what greatness is the very first level the most important level is being the best player on a title team since that would be the goal of the game.

You would like to be the best player on a title team the goal is to win there's no higher level of winning than the championship that's why it always confuses me when people have guys like Jerry West and Dr J over guys like Rick Barry and Bob Pettit.

But what is greatness to you

I tried figuring this out using Statmuse, but it kept telling me the amount of games guys played in without having attempted a 3-pointer in those games (ex: Tim Duncan played in 1392 games, attempted 3's in 155 of them, so he had 1237 games with no 3-pt attempts). That's not what I'm looking for.

Donaldson played in 958 games in his career without ever having attempted a 3-pointer. Can anyone find who else has played in several hundred career games and never attempted a 3-pointer in any of them, and I obviously mean from the 1979-80 season to now?

Anyone know any college players/ their family members who played during this time (50-62)?Specifically curious on the gambling scandals as I believe a family member was involved heavy based off recent information and would like to hear other's perspective and stories.

Also any MSU bball players/ their families from 1960-1962 would be immensely helpful! TIA

By "true", I mean that he was born in Europe and took up basketball there and didn't emigrate to North America with his family in his youth. I.e. he specifically came to the United States to play basketball. I know of Pétur Guðmundsson who came into the league in 1981 who fits the bill but I'm wondering if there were others before him.

Voting was conducted by 23 head coaches, each of whom had 10 votes. Voters were told not to vote for Kareem because he claimed he was retiring after the ‘85-‘86 season.

Top-10

23 votes - Larry Bird

”(Bird is) the best player in the league. He has had a dramatic effect on offense in the NBA. He continues to attack from any point—guard, forward or the pivot. He adds a dimension that few players ever have.” - John Bach

22 votes - Ralph Sampson, Akeem Olajuwon, & Michael Jordan

”(Jordan) has stardom written all over him. The only question is: Can he maintain this electric play? … (Sampson and Olajuwon) are hellacious if they stay linked together.” - John Bach

John MacLeod named Olajuwon, then scratched off the name because he is still polishing his skills. MacLeod also omitted Sampson.

20 votes - Pat Ewing (college)

”I don’t know if you can compare a guy who hasn’t been in (the NBA) to guys who have. That’s a tremendous presumption to make.” - Mike Fratello on why he didn’t vote Ewing

”(Ewing is) a franchise in himself.” - John Bach

”I am sure (Ewing will) be a star.” - Chuck Daly

19 votes - Magic Johnson

16 votes - Terry Cummings

15 votes - Moses Malone & Isiah Thomas

”(Moses) has lots of miles on him, he may not make it five years.” - Frank Layden

11 votes - Sidney Moncrief

Runners Up

7 votes - Bernard King

6 votes - Buck Williams & James Worthy

”(Worthy) will be the most dynamic player in basketball.” - Pat Riley

”(Worthy’s) coming on like a Southern Pacific Railway train.” - John Bach

5 votes - Dominique Wilkins

”With the Hawks running, it only enhances (Wilkins’) style.” - John Bach

4 votes - Wayman Tisdale (college)

3 votes - Charles Barkley

”If (Barkley) lasts five years, I think he’ll be terrific. I worry that, as big as he is, can his skeletal structure stand up? Wes Unseld was huge when he came into the league, and in a few years he had knee problems. Barkley runs faster and jumps a hell of a lot higher than Wes did.” - George Irvine

1 vote - Kevin McHale, Larry Nance, Verne Fleming, Derrick Smith, Paul Pressey, Sam Bowie, Clyde Drexler, Jeff Ruland, Sam Perkins, Mark Aguirre, Jack Sikma, Andrew Toney, William Bedford (college), & Danny Manning (college)

”I believe in Perkins a little more than Bowie. He has had to adjust to the (Dallas) system, and he has had to adjust to (coach Dick) Motta. But he’ll be alright.” - Cotton Fitzsimmons

”You’ve got to watch (Fleming) very carefully. … (Smith is) a real big second guard who plays bigger than 6-7. … (Pressey’s) a point forward, a new dimension.” - John Bach

Rookie head coach George Karl voted for Bedford and Manning.

Jack Ramsay, Sam Bowie’s coach, voted for Sam Bowie.

Players considered notable omissions

• Adrian Dantley

• Kiki Vandeweghe

• Kelly Tripucka

• Alex English

• Marques Jonnson

• Chris Mullin (college) received serious consideration from Frank Layden and Phil Johnson

”(Mullin’s) a great player, but I don’t know if he’ll be one of the 10 most influential.” - Frank Layden

”As long as Doc (Julius Erving, 35) is playing, he’ll be a factor, and the day he’s not a factor he’ll retire.” - Bill Fitch

Greg Anthony

Reggie Theus

Ricky Sobers

Isaiah Rider

Stacey Augmon

Glen Gondrezick

Armen Gilliam

Sidney Green

Keon Clark

RealGM is doing an update of its Retro Player of the Year Project which ranks the top 5 players (and now the top 3 attackers and defenders) for every season in NBA HISTORY. We're at 1975 but since the posters here claim to have an appreciation of history, I'll catch y'all up one post at a time (we started in year 1950).

Project Purpose:

While we create a Ranked List as a part of this project, and that List then becomes an entity we can analyze, it is important to understand that the List itself is not the primary purpose of the project.

The project's purpose is to encourage deep thought among those who participate and read by forcing participants to consider players in depth thread-by-thread, and having them make arguments and debate along the way.

And the hope in doing this is to build a community and that community's institutional knowledge.

Project Details:

• Original RPOY started in 2010
• All prospective participants had to say they wanted to vote before the 1970 thread closed barring a long history of participation in previous projects (no one has been admitted post-deadline yet). 32 voters are registered.
• Unlike 2010, Voters can also vote for the 3 best defensive players and 3 best offensive players
• One can vote for OPOY, DPOY or POY separately or together
• POY Ballots needed to include 5 players with a bare-minimum level of reasoning to be valid. OPOY and DPOY needed 3. Project results for any of the three only become official if there's at least 5 valid ballots.
• Voters voted to not count 2010 ballots in votes and to have 2014 be the final year voted on.
• Voters have at least 3 days to submit ballots. Project Runner said they were okay extending the deadline if discussion is alive.

Thread Info

• Season: 1952
• 11 people voted for POY
• 8 people voted for DPOY
• 8 people voted for OPOY

Discussion

Results

POY

1. George Mikan (1.000)
2. Paul Arizin (.555)
3. Bob Cousy (.400)
4. Bob Davies (.309)
5. Dolph Schayes (.200)

OPOY

T1. Alex Groza (.650)

T1. Bob Cousy (.650)

3. Bob Davies (.450)

DPOY

1. George Mikan (1.000)
2. Vern Mikkelsen (.200)

T3. Nat Clifton (0.175)

T3. Red Rocha (0.175)

Topics for 51-52

• Minneapolis retakes the throne
• Cinderella Knicks so close again
• Cousy vs Davies

Gus Williams

Mack Calvin ( I know next to nothing on this guy)

Robert Pack

Paul Westphal

Cliff Robinson

John Block

RealGM is doing an update of its Retro Player of the Year Project which ranks the top 5 players (and now the top 3 attackers and defenders) for every season in NBA HISTORY. We're at 1974 but since the posters here claim to have an appreciation of history, I'll catch y'all up one post at a time (we started in year 1950).

Project Purpose:

While we create a Ranked List as a part of this project, and that List then becomes an entity we can analyze, it is important to understand that the List itself is not the primary purpose of the project.

The project's purpose is to encourage deep thought among those who participate and read by forcing participants to consider players in depth thread-by-thread, and having them make arguments and debate along the way.

And the hope in doing this is to build a community and that community's institutional knowledge.

Project Details:

• Original RPOY started in 2010
• All prospective participants had to say they wanted to vote before the 1970 thread closed barring a long history of participation in previous projects (no one has been admitted post-deadline yet). 32 voters are registered.
• Unlike 2010, Voters can also vote for the 3 best defensive players and 3 best offensive players
• One can vote for OPOY, DPOY or POY separately or together
• POY Ballots needed to include 5 players with a bare-minimum level of reasoning to be valid. OPOY and DPOY needed 3. Project results for any of the three only become official if there's at least 5 valid ballots.
• Voters voted to not count 2010 ballots in votes and to have 2014 be the final year voted on.
• Voters have at least 3 days to submit ballots. Project Runner said they were okay extending the deadline if discussion is alive.

Thread Info

• Season: 1951
• 11 people voted for POY
• 9 people voted for DPOY
• 9 people voted for OPOY

Discussion

Results

POY

1. George Mikan (1.000)
2. Dolph Schayes (.500)
3. Arnie Risen (.370)
4. Alex Groza (.320)
5. Bob Davies (.290)

OPOY

1. Alex Groza (.622)
2. Bob Davies (.489)
3. Ed Mcauley (.378)

DPOY

1. George Mikan (1.000)
2. Arnie Risen (.311)
3. George Senesky (0.111)

Topics for 50-51

• The Royals rock Mikan
• Nationals Suprise
• Risen vs Davies

RealGM is doing an update of its Retro Player of the Year Project which ranks the top 5 players (and now the top 3 attackers and defenders) for every season in NBA HISTORY. We're at 1973 but since the posters here claim to have an appreciation of history, I'll catch y'all up one post at a time (we started in year 1950).

Project Purpose

While we create a Ranked List as a part of this project, and that List then becomes an entity we can analyze, it is important to understand that the List itself is not the primary purpose of the project.

The project's purpose is to encourage deep thought among those who participate and read by forcing participants to consider players in depth thread-by-thread, and having them make arguments and debate along the way.

And the hope in doing this is to build a community and that community's institutional knowledge.

Project Details:

• Original RPOY started in 2010
• All prospective participants had to say they wanted to vote before the 1970 thread closed barring a long history of participation in previous projects (no one has been admitted post-deadline yet). 32 voters are registered.
• Unlike 2010, Voters can also vote for the 3 best defensive players and 3 best offensive players
• One can vote for OPOY, DPOY or POY separately or together
• POY Ballots needed to include 5 players with a bare-minimum level of reasoning to be valid. OPOY and DPOY needed 3. Project results for any of the three only become official if there's at least 5 valid ballots.
• Voters voted to not count 2010 ballots in votes and to have 2014 be the final year voted on.
• Voters have at least 3 days to submit ballots. Project Runner said they were okay extending the deadline if discussion is alive.

Thread Info

• Season: 1950
• 11 people voted for POY
• 8 people voted for DPOY
• 7 people voted for OPOY

Thread Link

Results

POY

1. George Mikan (1.000)

T-2. Dolph Schayes (.591)

T-2. Alex Groza (.591)

4. Bob Davies (0.118)

5. Jim Pollard (0.073)

OPOY

1. George Mikan (0.886)
2. Alex Groza (0.657)
3. Dolph Schayes (.200)

DPOY

1. George Mikan (1.000)
2. Annie Risen (.225)
3. Al Cervi (.200)

Topics for 49-50

• Mikan Dominates
• Data/Film Scarcity
• Risen underrated?
• How did no shot-clock affect game play?

Johnny Moore

Maurice Evans

LaSalle Thompson

Fred Scolari used his time played in pro basketball to assert the greatest backcourt players he had ever seen.

Greatest (in order)

1. Bob Cousy

2. Al Cervi

3. Ralph Beard

4. Bob Davies

5. Bob Feerick

Greatest Offensive

• Bob Cousy

• Max Zaslofsky

• Bill Sharman

Best Jump Shooter

• Bill Sharman

(Paul Arizin named the GOAT jump shooter at any position)

Best Long Two-Handed Set Shots

• Bob Davies

• Sonny Hertzberg

• Bobby Wanzer

Best One-Handed Push Shots

• Bill Sharman

• Bob Feerick

• Bob Cousy

Fastest at Getting Shot Away

• Bob Davies (No one close)

Best Foul Shooter

• Bill Sharman

Best Offensive “Money” Player

• Al Cervi

Best Driver/Set Shooter Combo

• Bob Davies (in his prime)

Fastest From Standing Start

• Ralph Beard

Best Head-Fake/Change of Pace

• Bobby Wanzer

Toughest to Guard

• Ralph Beard

• George King

• Bobby Wanzer

Best Game-Delayer

• Bob Cousy

Smartest Under Fire

• Al Cervi

• Andy Phillip

• Paul Seymour

Best Playmakers (In order)

1. Andy Phillip

2. Bob Cousy

3. Dick McGuire

4. Bob Davies

5. Paul Seymour

Best Hands

• Bob Cousy

Surest Passer

• Andy Phillip

Most Spectacular

• Bob Cousy

Greatest Defensive

• Al Cervi

• George Senesky

• Slater Martin

Toughest to Score Against

• George King

• Slater Martin

• Al Cervi

Strongest

• Andy Phillip

• Paul Seymour

• Bob Feerick OR (Scolari’s hot take) Bob Cousy

Best at Hitting the Pivot

• Andy Phillip

Best at Taking a Rival in the Pivot

• Bob Feerick

Best Defensive Rebounder

• Frank Ramsey

Best Competitor

• Paul Seymour

(Billy Gabor gets honorable mention)

Most Colorful

• Bob Cousy

Best All-Around Team Player

• Al Cervi

• Bobby Wanzer

Best at Setting Blocks(Screens) for Others

• Andy Phillip

Most Effortless Play

• Andy Phillip

Scolari’s All-Time Team

C - George Mikan (strongest pro player ever)

F - Jim Pollard

F - Dolph Schayes

G - Bob Cousy

G - Ralph Beard (Scolari felt he would have put Al Cervi here, had he witnessed Cervi’s prime)

The Raptors (somewhat surprisingly, to me anyway) announced today that they’ll be retiring Vince Carter’s jersey (their first retired jersey) this season. The Nets had already previously announced they were doing so. This puts him in some fairly elite company of getting a jersey retired by two (or more) teams. Here’s the list of the 15 players who have achieved that so far:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (Bucks and Lakers) Charles Barkley (Sixers and Suns) Wilt Chamberlain (Warriors, Sixers, Lakers) Clyde Drexler (Blazers and Rockets) Julius Erving (Nets and Sixers) Elvin Hayes (Rockets and Wizards) Michael Jordan (Bulls and Heat) Bob Lanier (Pistons and Bucks) Moses Malone (Rockets and Sixers) Pete Maravich (Hawks, Jazz, Pelicans) Earl Monroe (Knicks and Wizards) Dikembe Mutombo (Nuggets and Hawks) Shaquille O’Neal (Magic, Lakers, Heat) Oscar Robertson (Kings and Bucks) Nate Thurmond (Warriors and Cavs)

Whether it's a current phrase, a phrase from the past (there's gotta be some from 50s media considering all the fun ways they used to say stuff), one that isn't necessarily common or widespread, etc.

I'll get this out of the way upfront: the book is a masterpiece.

It is, however, quite challenging. As a big fan of NBA history, I already had a pretty robust familiarity with the premiere players of this era. Who were the top names, where did they play, and what did they achieve. I think having this information already internalized was a massive boost for my reading experience, and I'd be very curious to know what reading it would be like for someone without any of that context.

This book is incredibly information dense. It approaches the 1949-50 season chronologically, imparting the information to the reader as they would have experienced it in real time. There are 17 teams in this league, and you're going to keep up with all of them. So it's player name after player name, game result after game result, paragraph after paragraph, for months of basketball. It is a lot to absorb, and I literally took months to read through it carefully, but it's quite stunning how much it feels at the end like you have experienced this season yourself.

I am not exaggerating the informational density, but the season story is far more colorful than it sounds. That litany of facts and names is always accompanied by precious context that allows you to develop a relationship with the hundreds of characters that appear in it. Minor contributors might only get mentioned a time or 2, while others are never far from the story. Beyond the statistics and results that are freely available online, you also get a picture of the team strategies, individual personalities and play styles, and events inside and outside of the games that all combine to produce those records. I never thought it would be possible to know not only who were the best players and teams of this time, but what specifically distinguished them, without any actual game film to evaluate.

So with his painstaking assemblage of facts and contexts, the author is painting an enormously rich picture of a season lost to film here. Throughout that story, there are also numerous tangents taken to describe the decades of developments in professional basketball that preceded this season, which all serve to illustrate one of the book's central points: 1949-50 is not a primordial ooze that our modern professional basketball would only later crystallize from, but rather it is something modern in itself, the result of so much history that we generally disregard out of convenience, due to the unavailability of information relative to later eras.

How did the author manage to reconstruct such a complete picture of a season that's been so long shrouded in darkness? Exhaustive dives into newspaper archives across the country, personal interviews with individuals who were there or had relationships with those present, magazine articles, books, as well as building on the research of others who have cast their own looks backward over the decades since. More than 20 pages of bibliographical data are presented in columns of small type at the book's conclusion, in case you'd like to investigate any particular data point further, or simply marvel at the volume of effort required even to obtain all this information, let alone weave it into a coherent experience of a single year in pro basketball.

Obviously, the interest for this undertaking is niche. For somebody like myself, who has long wished for a time machine so that I could truly experience the whole arc of the NBA from its beginning, this book has given me exactly that. If you like NBA history but don't bother with the really old stuff because it's just too hard to appreciate with the level of information that's available, I could not recommend this book more highly. It is a challenge, but an incredibly rewarding one.

Author Josh Elias is nothing short of a hero to those who love NBA history. He posts on basketball subreddits under u/TringlePringle and is always so generous with his time and expertise. I hope his work has a tangible impact on how we all appreciate early NBA history moving forward.

As many of you know, after retiring in 1963, Cousy ended up coaching the Royals during the '70 season. It didn't work out for multiple reasons, but he notably inserted himself as a player for seven midseason games. It didn't go well.

That being said, I read recently that his comeback caused a huge uptick in ticket sales for the Royals. He played five times at home, so I'm curious if anyone has any details about these supposed increased amount of fans showing up (including at those two road games, as well, now that I think about it). Did fans know ahead of time that he'd be playing on November 21, 1969? Were they upset when he stopped playing after January 6, 1970?

If the Bucks were able to keep Dr J in the 1972 draft they picked him with the 12th pick he would have joined Oscar Robertson Kareem and Bobby Dandridge how many titles do you think that team realistically could have won do you think it keeps Kareem and Bobby in Milwaukee do you think it extends Oscar's career at all either

Doc Rivers

George Thompson

Dean Meminger

Earl Tatum

Don Kojis

Maurice Lucas

 Larry McNeill

Jim Chones

Jerome Whitehead

Jim McIlvaine

I'm 18 and Iove every era of ball from George Mikan to today. I love evaluating games too. Does anybody have any games on google drive that cannot be found on google? If so dm me.

Walter Davis

Billy Cunningham

 Antawn Jamison

Sam Perkins

Brad Daugherty

Bob McAdoo

Jerry Stackhouse

Charlie Scott

Was Isiah close, or was he never really considered because of Jordan? Was Dumars ever considered?

If I'm remembering correctly, the 12th spot went to Laettner over Shaq (it was reserved for a college player) because Shaq was so good he might complain about an end-of-bench role on the team while Laettner would quietly accept any lesser role.

Who else?

George Irvine

Steve Hawes

James Edwards

Spencer Hawes