14/08/2024 To my unborn child,

Today I am 21, and you are unborn. You will never be born, because I want to keep it this way. I don't want you to come into this world.

Today, I am a mess. I am not in the right mind nor place to do a lot of things I should have been doing (or at least that's what I think). I don't have regrets, not really. Do you know why? A long time ago, when I was a kid as curious and adorable as you would have grown to be, I'm sure, I learned about something called the Butterfly Effect. From what I gather, it means that even a tiny and seemingly insignificant event has the power to change the entire course of the future. This is why I chose not to have a single regret. I don't want to change the past, no matter how bad things might seem today, because they could very well be worse had they happened differently. From this, you might think your “parent” is someone who plays it safe, and you would not be too wrong (I sure try to play it safe, haha). The truth is, I've seen people waste their present in regret of the past when they could have used it to change what they still have: the future. I said something earlier, about not being in the mind nor place to do things I should have been doing. I have always wanted a lot, I think. I have wanted a lot because I have felt a lot. I also think it is because I am unkind to myself that I frequently feel ‘less than’ or upset with myself about things that shouldn't matter so much. I do think that I, and everyone in any of the worlds who has had the misfortune of being born, deserves gentleness in life. One non-existent-day, my child, if you ever feel that love is true, you will come to find that it is built upon gentleness. But alas, today I find it hard to be gentle to my own self. I hope that I heal through this, and find my kindness once more.

I'm sure you are curious to know why I never want you to come into this world. I could tell you about every single misfortune anyone has ever faced in their lives - or at the very least my own account, but that is not the only reason. I don't want you to come here because you never asked for it. That's really it, if you ask me. “This world is full of suffering but it is also full of the overcoming of it” but you never asked for any of this. I never asked for any of this, and here I am. Here I will admit one thing, I certainly am one of those who believes that parents should want only the best for their children (unlike so many others), but I also have no special place among this crowd, not in my opinion. I am, after all, doing the only thing they do which is to make a decision best for their children to the best of their abilities. I do not know for certain if this is the right thing to do, but I sure as hell don't see any other option. I do not know if I am committing a great crime against you by depriving you of this experience called life, of having your own agreement or disagreement to it. I have come to know that I know very little. Only thing I know is that I will not play God with your life.

Another thing I'd like to admit is that for most of my life, I've been quite fearful of death. Classic fear of the unknown. What scares me the most is the idea that I would be reborn as every sentient living being that's ever existed! Of course, I still don't know what really happens after death, but I have also come to realize that the way one deals with this question greatly affects what happens while they're alive. I know it is a question of belief and one won't be superior to the other because we couldn't really know what happens after death. And since it is open for us to believe as we see fit, let me promise you that once I'm through with this world, I will see you, and I will see Him, and we will finally know that we have never been separate.

With love, to the edge of the Universe and beyond,

Father.

I'm a sterilisation mentally challenged 26 year old. I didn't understand at 16 why it was best fome to be sterilisation but I understand more now. I wouldn’t be able to be a dad and look after a child I'm a bit like a kid myself. I would encourage people like me to get sterilisation it's best

I won't go into details but in my late teens I was in court for doing something bad in a sexual way. It was deemed it would be in my best interests and safer if I was sterilisation by vasectomy. I had it done and understand why. I think it's best with intellectual disabilities to have this done.

Looking for as comprehensive list as possible for use encounter arguing those who make the "life is good" argument. Thanks!

Responses to "who dont you commit suicide" by antinatalists have been unsuccefull at refuting this argument

if one thinks not existing is better than existing, the best thing to do seems to be suicide

https://www.instagram.com/proextinction?upcoming_event_id=18330036205180313

I'm 30 years old and I've been a staunch antinatalist for about a decade now. But I'm starting to believe that constructing rigorous philosophical arguments for antinatalism is completely pointless and a waste of time. I feel like, at the end of the day, antinatalism is a conclusion you have to come to on your own through your own lived experience and your own ability to reason, and it can't be spoonfed to you in the context of a debate. This is why all arguments between natalists and antinatalists just end at an impasse: there is just a fundamental disconnect between the two that can't be resolved. When I first became an antinatalist, I used to watch debates on youtube (like David Benatar vs Jordan Peterson), but I soon realized that nothing good ever comes from that, either for me or for the people engaged in the debate. I think natalists that are hell-bent on having kids are gonna do it regardless of any logical argument that is presented to them. Am I too cynical or do you think there is value in continuing to push these types of classical arguments?

I have just published a book version of my essay collection titled “Minimalist Axiologies: Alternatives to ‘Good Minus Bad’ Views of Value”. You can download it for free in your format of choice, including Kindle, paperback PDF, or a free EPUB version from the Center for Reducing Suffering (CRS) website. There is also a minimum-priced paperback version for those who like to read on paper.

Relation to antinatalism:

• In this book, I explore how we can have intuitive and reasonable views of positive value consistent with the belief that problems such as extreme suffering cannot be counterbalanced by the creation of any other things. Specifically, I explore theories of value, wellbeing, and ethics that reject the “plus-minus” logic of moral counterbalancing, as they reject the idea of ‘intrinsic’, ‘final’, or ‘independent’ positive value in the first place.

• These views seem to be a common (even if not necessarily the most common) reason why people endorse antinatalist views. At the same time, these views are often discussed in ways that focus almost exclusively on what they are against (e.g. the negative “contents” of individual lives). In this book, I also focus on the perhaps neglected positive aspects of these views, such as how they remain compatible with the possibility of highly worthwhile lives (from a consequentialist perspective) thanks to the overall positive roles that we can have for others. For example, our life as a whole could help prevent much more extreme suffering than it causes or contains.

• (Of course, the degree to which we can determine whether any particular life has overall positive or negative roles, even if we have a fully clear view of value, is a complex empirical question, beyond the scope of this book. One of my main points, from a consequentialist perspective, is simply that a more complete view would take into account not only a life’s “contents”, but also its negative and positive externalities for all sentient beings.)

https://preview.redd.it/pdfgxadbd8ed1.jpg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=367269b1d226df5f44772b694d5ce1bf1c26a35a

To see whether the book could be for you, below is the full Preface. (The EA forum post also contains a high-quality AI narration of the preface.)

Preface

Can suffering be counterbalanced by the creation of other things?

Our answer to this question depends on how we think about the notion of positive value.

In this book, I explore ethical views that reject the idea of intrinsic positive value, and which instead understand positive value in relational terms. Previously, these views have been called purely negative or purely suffering-focused views, and they often have roots in Buddhist or Epicurean philosophy. As a broad category of views, I call them minimalist views. The term “minimalist axiologies” specifically refers to minimalist views of value: views that essentially say “the less this, the better”. Overall, I aim to highlight how these views are compatible with sensible and nuanced notions of positive value, wellbeing, and lives worth living.

A key point throughout the book is that many of our seemingly intrinsic positive values can be considered valuable thanks to their helpful roles for reducing problems such as involuntary suffering. Thus, minimalist views are more compatible with our everyday intuitions about positive value than is usually recognized.

This book is a collection of six essays that have previously been published online. Each of the essays is a standalone piece, and they can be read in any order depending on the reader’s interests. So if you are interested in a specific topic, it makes sense to just read one or two essays, or even to just skim the book for new points or references. At the same time, the six essays all complement each other, and together they provide a more cohesive picture.

Since I wanted to keep the essays readable as standalone pieces, the book includes significant repetition of key points and definitions between chapters. Additionally, many core points are repeated even within the same chapters. This is partly because in my 13 years of following discussions on these topics, I have found that those key points are often missed and rarely pieced together. Thus, it seems useful to highlight how the core points and pieces relate to each other, so that we can better see these views in a more complete way.

I will admit upfront that the book is not for everyone. The style is often concise, intended to quickly cover a lot of ground at a high level. To fill the gaps, the book is densely referenced with footnotes that point to further reading. The content is oriented toward people who have some existing interest in topics such as philosophy of wellbeing, normative ethics, or value theory. As such, the book may not be a suitable first introduction to these fields, but it can complement existing introductions.

I should also clarify that my focus is broader than just a defense of my own views. I present a wide range of minimalist views, not just the views that I endorse most strongly. This is partly because many of the main points I make apply to minimalist views in general, and partly because I wish to convey the diversity of minimalist views.

Thus, the book is perhaps better seen as an introduction to and defense of minimalist views more broadly, and not necessarily a defense of any specific minimalist view. My own current view is a consequentialist, welfarist, and experience-focused view, with a priority to the prevention of unbearable suffering. Yet there are many minimalist views that do not accept any of these stances, as will be illustrated in the book. Again, what unites all these views is their rejection of the idea of intrinsic positive value whose creation could by itself counterbalance suffering elsewhere.

The book does not seek to present any novel theory of wellbeing, morality, or value. However, I believe that the book offers many new angles from which minimalist views can be approached in productive ways. My hope is that it will catalyze further reflection on fundamental values, help people understand minimalist views better, and perhaps even help resolve some of the deep conflicts that we may experience between seemingly opposed values.

All of the essays are a result of my work for the Center for Reducing Suffering (CRS), a nonprofit organization devoted to reducing suffering. The essays have benefited from the close attention of my editor and CRS colleague Magnus Vinding, to whom I also directly owe a dozen of the paragraphs in the book. I am also grateful to the donors of CRS who made this work possible.

All CRS books are available for free in various formats:
https://centerforreducingsuffering.org/books

i have been an antinatalist for years but i am considering adopting just for the simple fact that ik i could do right by a child. so thinking about the fact that there are some children, whether i think they should’ve been born or not, who are suffering at the hands of unfit parents.

We finically stable and think we would do very well raising a child and we just feel awful for these children but at the same time neither of us has a passion or desire for having children or raising them. But i am confident we’d be good parents if we did adopt

just wondering if anyone else has struggled with this and would very much appreciate some guidance

thank yall

To me, in a certain way, "all roads lead to antinatalism", but I get the impression that we all have something which we find particularly crucial which sits at the core of our antinatalism. Coincidentally, these things could also functionas being what we consider to be the best, or clearest, anti-natalist argument. For me, it's this short article by Simon Knutsson, and the more generous links included, which would best justify why I find antinatalism so important - I always have it at the back of my mind when I discuss the subject, but it could also function as my straightforward answer to "why are you an antinatalist ?" or "what made you an antinatalist ?".

https://www.simonknutsson.com/the-seriousness-of-suffering-supplement

Curious to see if you have some personal equivalents. Something that seems to you concise, evident, clear and above all crucial.

Hello everyone. I have created an online petition that calls for an end to procreation. Let's try to get as many signatures as we can 😁.

Sign here