For several years now, I’ve been familiar with the work of the late Dr Michael Heiser - a biblical scholar noted for popularizing the concept of the “divine council” found in the Jewish and Christian scriptures. I’m currently reading his book “The Unseen Realm,” which goes into detail on the various divine and semi-divine beings described in the Bible.

In a nutshell, the Hebrew Bible often uses the word “elohim” to describe God. But it is a generic term that isn’t specific to Yahweh alone, and the Biblical texts often refer to other elohim as well. In this case, the word could be translated “god,” “gods,” or “divine beings.”

Some of these elohim are loyal to God, and comprise His divine council - governing the world under His authority. Other elohim rebelled against God - the devil and those who followed him. A main point of Dr. Heiser’s thesis is that the pagan gods were not merely imaginary - but belonged to this group of rebellious divine beings. God allowed them to rule over various nations - but later rebuked them for their evildoing, and will end up destroying them entirely. (Psalm 82)

I’m amazed by how closely Tolkien follows this concept with the Ainur; the Valar and the Maiar. As far as I know, the Biblical divine council was not a well-known concept in his time. Although it was an established part of the ancient near-Eastern worldview, it seems to have been mostly forgotten since the early Christian era, only regaining popularity recently thanks to growing scholarship of ancient (Biblical and non-Biblical) texts.

As far as I knew, Tolkien’s Valar and Maiar were loosely based on pagan gods (at least in the early stages of development), and he later likened them to angels and archangels. To me, it almost looks like he independently revived the concept of the “sons of God” and the divine council - without describing them in those terms.

I did a quick web search for "Tolkien" and "divine council," but didn't find much on this particular topic. One result of note was this forum post, where the OP articulates (better then me, I think) pretty much the same thoughts I'm having. Unfortunately it didn't lead to much discussion.

Thoughts?

We all know it:

3 Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,

7 for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,

9 for Mortal Men doomed to die,

1 for the Dark Lord on his dark throne

Wait, which year did Tolkien die exactly? 🤯

Hi! I read the books like 20 years ago and remember very little. I would like to know why no one ever check the specific nature of the ring during the decades priors the Lotr events. I mean, the one ring was lost, I would check any magic ring that I encounter.

Does this actually happens?

I get that they were scared after what happened with the Elves, but they just let Humans to rot.

While Elves were favored at every turn and even get to return to Valinor, suffer no illnesses and live a blissful existence.

On the other than mankind's history in Middlerth has been nothing but suffering, from having no protection against evil forces, to being easily manipulated, to not not even being deserving enough to ever reach Valinor.

And to top it all of, as far as I am aware, no one knows what happens to men after death.

The Valar just seem like cruel beings if you look at them from Ant other perspective other than the Elves, who got all the benefits. I get not interfering directly, but not even giving them a good afterlife just seems sadistic.

I just finished the Silmarillion for the first time, and I always hear that arda is our world in another state of imagination, and the Quenta are alternative mythology, so what is the star of Eärendil’s supposed to be? At first I thought of the Halley comet, but it’s supposed to be visible daily so Sirius or Venus maybe? Are there other Arda stars we have equivalents for?

This might not be a hot take, but even the Feanor was proven in the end to be a pretty selfish and bad elf, I always thought he was great at arguing with the Valar. Yes, his mind was gradually poisoned by Melkor in Aman, but the Valar’s incompetence is what led to Melkor roaming freely to begin with. And instead of trying to reason with and understand Feanor, they viewed him with paranoia and immediate distrust. Feanor is like a child who had one abusive parent and the other parent just goes “You’re just a loser like your other parent!” And by the way, Feanor rightly pointed out that the Valar couldn’t keep their own house in order. Manwe tries to talk down to Feanor and tell him he has chosen a path of sorrow, but Feanor’s “Y’all were too busy partying on Arda and a giant spider ate all your best shit, so you basically live in sorrow. You’re terrible role models. Because I’m tryna do something about it and y’all are just bitching and whining in your newly dark lands.” And though Feanor’s heart was filled with selfish darkness, he’s right…the Valar were often terrible role models.

Im absolutely fascinated by the lore, possibilities, and nature of middle earth. Especially all related to Sauron and Morgoth. Crazy to me how in the history of what’s supposed to be “our modern world”, there was a literal dark lord (fallen angel if you will) that directly influenced and interacted with the world of men. Now, here are some of my questions that I wonder about:

1. Sauron was reduced to roam the middle earth formless, along with the witch king. Was this a better fate than to be casted in the void? Moreover, could he directly see and understand what was going on in the world? Could he see the witch king in that very state?

2. Sauron created the one ring for dominion, but could it be argued that he was also enslaved by the ring? How much of his essence was truly his own after the forging?

3. When the Nazgûl were starting to roam the world under Sauron’s new rule, were they wraiths? Did they retain their original looks and armor? When did they really turn into wraiths at the point of no return?

4. What does the fact that Sauron was able to unify so many disparate and chaotic forces (orcs, men, Nazgûl) say about his charisma and intellect? Could his leadership qualities have been used for good in another reality?

5. If Morgoth were to escape the Void, would he seek vengeance on Sauron for his failures, or would he attempt to reclaim him as a servant?

Lastly, probably the ultimate question: Eru had a grand plan right? He foresaw Morgoth and Sauron, also as necessities to shape the world. However, was this set in stone? Was he ready to lose Arda if all went wrong? And if so, what would he do then?

Thank you all, I truly enjoy posting on this sub. I have many more questions to come, let me know if I should keep them coming 😎

Lord of Nazgul, he was hurt by a halfling with a normal blade?

I’m currently re-reading some chapters in The Silmarillion, and I was looking for some content that mentions how Morgoth’s power is becoming more “dispersed” into the earth the more he pours his evil into Arda. That description always come to me but I can’t remember which chapter it belongs to. The only closest thing I could find is the quote that describes him no longer having the power to create but only to pervert others creation in the chapter Valaquenta. I tried searching it in Chat GPT, and it keeps telling me that I can find that description in the chapter -The Coming of the elves and the captivity of Morgoth even though this chapter never mentions anything relatable to my question (something that I can confirm after I keep flipping the pages for several times). If anyone knows the quote, please show it in the comment section along with its chapter. You will have my earnest gratitude because I am currently working on a project based on this book.

Could someone please send me some quotes from the elf Galadriel in the books? I think she is a wonderful female representation in the saga. I need good quotes from the books.

Hi, I was wondering about one thing- if the arkenstone was soo valuable and there was nothing like it and even the Elf king was shocked to see it. Why didn't he just took it? It was more valuable that just gold and usual diamonds. He didn't fear the lake people because they were weak and few. And he didn't fear Gandalf also.At that moment he was the strongest of those present and he could just take it for himself. We know that he valued and liked different tresures. I just want to know what motive did he have just to give it back to Thorin. And he didn't like him or the dworfs in general. maybe someone has same theories, I would really like to hear some thoughts on this :)

How many cam from Valinor?

I know Tolkein never really got it down on where orcs come from but for the sake of discussion, let us go with the thematic run that evil is incapable of genuine creation, and as such the orcs are twisted subspecies of men and elves. By extension, they presumably reproduce in the same way, that is to say via sex. It's possible the uruks/uruk-hai/goblin-men (assuming they're all the same things) are automata controlled by Saruman or Sauron's magic depending on creator, but otherwise yeah. This carries the implication that when an orc dies, they either receive the gift of men or are potentially rembodied eventually in Valinor. Notably, if true, this means Feanor suffers a longer waittime in the Halls of Mandos than any of the various orc commanders and warlords lol which is kinda deeply funny

AFAIR there is no definitive info in Silmarillion but what do you think?

I understand both were from Teleri descent, but what makes a Sindar a Sindar and not a Green Elf or Laiquendi

I had a bit of a thought the other day after looking in my copy of Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien.

The House of Elrond is described as being home to "a great many" elves, including several high Noldorin lords, and the heir of the Dunedain. If I remember correctly, Galadriel and Celeborn even stayed there for a prolonged period of time. At the very least, it's big enough to hold its residents as well as likely several dozen guests at the time of the Council of Elrond.

However, Tolkien presents the house -- at least from the outside -- as being of fairly modest size. It is described originally as the "last homely house," and nothing is said that would imply a large size. His pictures portray a house far smaller than, say, Alan Lee's paintings or the compound-like design from the films. His most famous picture of Rivendell, from The Hobbit, makes it appear modest enough, but the one he began to make for The Lord of the Rings (also included in Pictures by JRR Tolkien) makes it seem yet smaller, due to the addition of some peripherals (like a fence behind the house and handrails on the steps up from the bridge) that help scale it. It doesn't seem the kind of place that could house some ~50 people in comfort, including high lords and ladies and their retinues, for long periods of time -- and that's without mentioning the great banquet-hall, the Hall of Fire, large porch where the Council took place, etc.

This makes me think that the House of Elrond uses a sort of Elven-"magic" to be, or appear, "bigger on the inside" (for lack of a better term). When Sam tells Frodo about how the house has a great many rooms and passageways, this seems to imply that this surprised him -- presumably because the house doesn't seem big enlugh for it all from the outside. Otherwise, he would have just talked about how big the house was.

This idea of a house being "bigger on the inside" had been used by Tolkien in other writings, as well. In the Book of Lost Tales, the Cottage of Lost Play is described as a smaller house from the outside, but Eriol finds it plenty spacious enough from within. Also, like Rivendell, the cottage even has a large hall with a fire intended for tale-telling, and the lord of the house is the son of a veteran of the First Age -- could Rivendell have taken inspiration from the Cottage, and carried this aspect along with it?

So what do you think of my theory? Apologies if I'm missing or asserting something that's already estsblished knowledge; I've not yet read the History of the Hobbit, and have only finished Volume 5 so far of the Histories of Middle-earth.

Given the post yesterday, I thought I would flip this question on its head. With enough gold, could the dominion of men have bribed Smaug to help them destroy the legions of Mordor?

I like to think Smaug could be willing to bet on the side that would win. I like to think he isn’t inherently evil, just driven by greed.

What do you think?

The rings that Saruman alludes to have made are always tantilising for speculation. But a few things struck me regarding Grima:

Theoden being lulled to a dotard by poisoned whispers seems so up Saruman's alley and in the index he's described as being 'under the spells of Saruman'. There's lots of precedent for a Maiar investing their power in others and rings is certainly how Sauron achieved it with the Witch-King. I know some are determined that no magic was employed but reading 'Voice Of Saruman' Chapter makes it hard to believe for me.

Mostly though it's in Grima's fall and the paralells with Golumn. Both members of a good race with a touch of corruptibility to them, we see each reduced to a crawling, hissing creature. Characters though seem keen to offer Grima chances of redemption, much like with Golumn, even when it's futile and perilous to do so.

Interestingly both were bound to a power that they hated on some level and both were killed in the act of destoying/betraying that power. It puts a different context on the struggle Grima was going through maybe more thsn just a moral one.

Curious to any thoughts or things ive missed.

Edit: To clarify, im not referring to one of the 20 great rings of power, but one of Saruman's making as he described himself as 'ring-maker'

In the white rider chapter of TTT.

Firstly, I'm not sure if its stated how Sauron knew this but if he did, as it is relayed by Gandalf, then why were the Ringwraiths not sent to find them and the mixed party of northern orks and Isengard uruks? that were returning to Saruman before they were intercepted by Éomer's Éored on the outskirts of Fangorn. interestingly Gandalf also says that Saruman was unaware of the hobbits capture or the quarrel bwtween his uruks and the orcs of mordor (served morder but were actually northern?). did some of the mordor aligned orcs return to mordor to deliver news faster than the the mixed group reached the eaves of Fangorn?

If there are obvious anwers within the book i apologise i am rereading currently.

sorry for lazy formatting im on my phone.

I did a search of google on this topic to no avail so i presumed it has not been asked yet, i have not studied this thoroughly ty to my fellow Tolkein fans in advance :)

update: thankyou for your replies, i feel a bit foolish these books are so dense and it always suprises me how much i miss even on the nth reading

I’ve just finished reading the extracts for the cancelled revision in the History of the Hobbit and I was pleasantly surprised. The whimsical narrator has been removed and we get a journey that more closely resembles Frodo’s (mention of Bree, longer travel times etc.). I also really enjoyed the broken bridge and the reason it was broken. I think it makes Gandalf’s disappearance before the trolls make more sense.

Below is a quote from the History of the Hobbit by the author John D. Rateliff where he wonders what other changes Tolkien might have made had he continued with the revision.

We cannot know what else Tolkien would have added to the story, had the 1960 Hobbit or Fifth Phase continued beyond this point. Bilbo could not have met Arwen at Rivendell, for we know she was at that time in the middle of a decades-long visit to her grandparents, Galadriel and Celeborn, in Lórien. But did Bilbo's lifelong friendship with Aragorn (then a ten-year-old living in Rivendell with his mother and being raised by Elrond) begin during his visit there, either on the outgoing or the return trip? Did Legolas Greenleaf fight in the Battle of Five Armies? Would more light have been cast upon the storm-giants of the Misty Mountains, or the source of Beorn's enchantment, or would we have learned a little more about the elusive Radagast? Would the Spiders of Mirkwood have been made more horrific, à la Shelob, and the wood-elves absolved of all blame in their treatment of the dwarves? Would Balin's visit in the Epilogue include some mention of his plans for Moria? And most importantly, would the Ring have been presented in more sinister terms throughout, with hints of its corruptive influence even on one such as Bilbo? We will never know the answers to any of these questions.

I'm not a Tolkien fan, and I've read about half of the Hobbit so I don't know much (sorry!) but my friend is. I'm making a trip to London, and will be going to Oxford for a day, is there anything that could be a good idea to give her? Any shop to keep in mind?

After Nírnaeth Arnoediad, SoF scattered into a wild, without army, influence and money I guess. Yet somehow they managed to gather the army. They also convinced them it is worth waging war for some jewels. And they did that two times. During the time when Morgoth’s shadow covered most of the Beleriand. Some elves probably heard something about Silmarils. But why should they wage war for them and slay their own kin?

Do we have any idea how did they do this? Did they have silver tongue or did they somehow usurped the power?

One of things that's really fun to do with the "History of Middle-Earth" is to trace some specific moments throughout different stages of The Silmarillion and to see them taking the final shape. So why not have a shot silly post and do this for one of the funniest moments in the book, Feanor's insult to Melkor.

The Book of Lost Tales: There is no conflict between Fëanor and Fingolfin yet, so stage for the scene to take place.

Sketch of Mythology, Quenta Noldorinwa, Early Annals of Valinor: Conflict between Fëanor and Fingolfin appears. Fëanor is banished from Tirion, but Melkor does not meet him in secret.

Later Annals of Beleriand - the first mentioning

Finwe and Fëanor departed from the city of Tun and dwelt in the north of Valinor; but Morgoth hid himself, and  appeared only to Fëanor in secret, feigning friendship.

Quenta Silmarillion - now a little bit more expansive

It is said that for a great while none saw Morgoth, until he appeared privily to Fëanor, feigning friendship with cunning argument, and urging him to his former thought of flight. But Fëanor shut now his doors, if not his heart; and Finwe sent word to Valmar, but Morgoth departed in anger.

Later Quenta Phase 1 - finally a full conversation appears

It is said that for two years none saw Melkor, until he appeared privily to Fëanor, feigning friendship with cunning  argument, and urging him to his former thought of flight. But his cunning overreached his aim; for knowing that  the jewels held the heart of Fëanor in thrall, he said at the last: 'Here is a strong place and well guarded, but think not that the Silmarils will lie safe in any treasury within reach of the Valar!'

Then the fires of the heart of Fëanor were kindled, and his eyes blazed, and his sight burned through all the fair-semblance of Melkor to the dark depths of his mind, and perceived there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate  overcame Fëanor’s fear, and he spoke shamefully to Melkor, saying: 'Get thee gone, gangrel! Thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house upon the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä, as though he were a beggar.

Annals of Aman - a different version of their conversation

And it is said that Melkor was not seen again for a while; but suddenly he appeared before the doors of the house of Finwe and Fëanor at Formenos, and sought to speak with them. And he said to them: ‘Behold the truth of all that I have spoken, and how you are indeed banished unjustly. And think of that the Silmarils lie safe in any treasury within the realm of the gods. But if the heart of Fëanor is yet free and bold as his words were in Tuna, then I will aid you, and bring you far from this narrow land. For am I not Vala as are they? Yea, and more than they, and have ever been a friend to the Noldor, most skilled and valiant of all the folk of Arda.' 

Then the heart of Fëanor was increased in bitterness and filled with fear for the Silmarils, and in that mood he endured. But Melkor's words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he intended; and Fëanor looked upon him with blazing eyes, and lo! he saw through the semblance of Melkor and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there the lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame all fear and he cursed Melkor and bade him begone. 'Get thee from my gate, thou gangrel, jail-crow of Mandos,' said he, and he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.

Later Quenta Phase 2 - both conversation are now combined

It is said that for two years no one in Valinor saw Melkor again, nor heard any rumour of him, until suddenly he sought out Fëanor. Secretly he came to Formenos, in guise as a traveller that seeks for lodging; and he spoke with Fëanor before his door. Friendship he feigned with cunning argument, urging him to his former thought of flight from the trammels of the Valar. 

'Behold the truth of all that I have spoken, and how thou art banished unjustly,' he said. 'But if the heart of Fëanor is still undaunted, as it was in Tuna, then I will aid him and bring him far from this narrow land. For am I not Vala also? Yea, and more than those who sit here in pride. I have ever been a friend of the Noldor, knowing their worth: the most skilled and the most valiant of all the folk of Arda.' 

Now Fëanor's heart was still bitter at his humiliation before Mandos, and for a moment he paused and looked at Melkor in silence, wondering if indeed he might trust him so far at least as to aid his escape. But Melkor's cunning overreached his aim, and seeing Fëanor hesitate, and knowing that the Silmarils held his heart in thrall, he said at the last: 'Here is a strong place well guarded, but think not that the Silmarils will lie safe in any treasury within the realm of the Valar!' 

Then the fires of' the heart of Fëanor were kindled, and his eyes blazed; and his sight burned through all the fair-semblance of Melkor to the dark depths of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he spoke shamefully to Melkor, saying: 'Get thee from my gate, gangrel! Thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the door of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.

The Published Silmarillion - LQ2 version was too good for this world, and too specific compared to chapters not revised in the second phase, so it took a bit of trimming by Christopher to fit with the rest of the book

It is told that for a time Melkor was not seen again in Valinor, nor was any rumour heard of him, until suddenly he came to Formenos, and spoke with Fëanor before his doors. Friendship he feigned with cunning argument, urging him to his former thought of flight from the trammels of the Valar; and he said: ‘Behold the truth of all that I have spoken, and how thou art banished unjustly. But if the heart of Fëanor is yet free and bold as were his words in Tirion, then I will aid him, and bring him far from this narrow land. For am I not Vala also? Yea, and more than those who sit in pride in Valimar; and I have ever been a friend to the Noldor, most skilled and most valiant of the people of Arda.’

Now Fëanor’s heart was still bitter at his humiliation before Mandos, and he looked at Melkor in silence, pondering if indeed he might yet trust him so far as to aid him in his flight. And Melkor, seeing that Fëanor wavered, and knowing that the Silmarils held his heart in thrall, said at the last: ‘Here is a strong place, and well guarded; but think not that the Silmarils will lie safe in any treasury within the realm of the Valar!’

But his cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Fëanor’s fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: ‘Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!’ And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.

Interestingly "thou gangrel" existed in all the versions, but was cut in the final one. Still, ‘Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!’ is probably the most melodically sounding.

If we put aside the Istari order who has been sent to ME for a clear goal and purpose, and in a limited mortal form, was it ever explained as to why are there other seemingly "natural" maiar in middle earth?

Especially at the era that's as late as the 3rd age?

For example, Melian. It doesn't seems to me like she has any mission there and just hang around because she want to. If anything she even work against the will of the Valar by making Thingol and his kin stay behind.

And the Eagles and Shadowfax's ancestors? They seems completely neutral but instead of going to Valinor they hung around, at least for a while anyways, why?

My other questions is whether the ring can temp actual maiar of the same order as Sauron (not limited form like the wizards) like Melian?

So, what factors resulted in Gondor surviving up to the War of the Ring whereas Arnor did not survive the Third Age?

Did the plague play a major part in sealing Arnor's fate or were there other factors?

Working on my own world(s) for multiple purposes and while I love most of the fantasy content I've read (Tolkien, ASOIAF, Tolkien, bits of the Witcher, even DnD lore) I'm curious what sources there are for these types of myth that can be easily found. Thanks in advance!

I have a sweatshirt with these Cirth runes on it, and I'm hoping to figure out what they say...

https://boxybutgood.com/~jeff/priv/CirthSample.png

I took a stab at translating it myself using the Cirth variants at this link: https://www.wikihow.life/Read-Cirth

If I squint real hard and look at what I wrote for each, maybe it says "Lord or the Rings"? Possibly in some other Cirth variant not listed here? Or possibly just badly transcribed?

What do you think? Thanks!!

Gandalf helped Thorin and his dwarves retake Erebor because he knew Sauron was regaining power and feared Sauron would recruit Smaug as an ally, so he decided to eliminate Smaug before Sauron got the chance to do so. But would Smaug have actually joined Sauron? On one hand, the dragons were created by Morgoth and served him during the First Age, and Smaug might have recognized Sauron as Morgoth's lieutenant. On the other hand, Smaug doesn't seem like the type to take orders from anyone, at least unless there are huge sums of gold involved.

Hello, I’m currently constructing a research paper on the author J.R.R.Tolkien, and I would like to request assistance in finding resources (primary or secondary) that would provide information on Tolkien’s inspiration behind the lord of the rings trilogy, details of its creation, and it’s impact on future media.

I was planning on studying another fantasy author who I had more knowledge on, but decided against it as they seemed to be problematic.

Your help is greatly appreciated, thank you for your time.

It is my understanding that men awoke in the first year of the sun of the First Age, and that the First Age ended in Y.S. 590 with the defeat of Morgoth. This would mean the entire race of men was less than 600 years old by the dawn of the Second Age, and 32 years later the Dunedain founded Numenor. I’m curious how they advanced so quickly in so little time compared to real world history? Was there a Middle Earth equivalent to the Stone Age and Bronze Age or did humans wake up in Hildorien already with the knowledge of metalworking, farming, domesticating animals, etc.? Or did the Elves and maybe Dwarves teach them these things in a pretty short time?

I’m wondering if Tolkien wrote about this at all, or if this is one of those things where he expected us to suspend our disbelief since it’s a mythological history, which is fair haha. I’m honestly not too sure what men as a whole were doing during the First Age anyway (besides migrating to Beleriand, fighting against or siding with Morgoth, and the whole business with Beren & Luthien), so any information/thoughts on this would be great!