With the passing of Christopher Tolkien, the recently published Fall of Numenor edited by Brian Shelby, and the upcoming Complete poems of J.R.R Tolkien, would it be safe to say that we have seen the end of official Middle-Earth material?

I have been reading in several posts on the internet the little story of what happened to Gimli and Legolas after Aragorn's death. I have not found any post that indicates the sources where this story comes from. I need someone to solve this doubt

I’d like to read some early examples of novels that include “supplementary materials” outside the main text: maps, languages, genealogies, etc.

Wikipedia tells me that I’m looking for 18th century English antiquarian authors Thomas Chatterton, Thomas Percy and William Stukeley.

Does anyone here have favorite works by them? How about other pre-Tolkien authors whose books included media apart from the main narrative?

Thanks!

Do we know what defences this speaks of?

As a huge fan of Tolkien’s Legendarium and find the lore and universe that he has created to be one of my favourites of all time, I was wondering if it’s worth reading the other Tolkien books outside of core/main books. Is the History of Middle Earth series, Beren and Luthien, The Fall of Gondolin, The Unfinished Tales all worth reading? I’ve read the main ones, like The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, and loved all of them. In many ways The Silmarillion might be my favourite. Anyway I was wondering are the other Tolkien books outside the main ones worth reading?

So, I was reading return of the king again and had a his following idea: in the council, it is said military victory against sauron is nigh impossible and that may be true, but I think the state of the west after pellenor fields is underrated, good enough to stall Sauron for a long while. This is because, after the battle of Pellenor, had the forces of good decided not to attack the black gate to lure out Saurons troops, they could regather their 6-10 k men, reinforce the city, reman osgiliath and try to repeat the same feat, as even though the armies that Saurons still possesses are pretty much as big as the morgul host, with the south gondor freed and Osgiliath undefeded I think they still could hold out for much longer. Their newfound confidence would be very useful too, as if not for fear, it is said it is pretty hard for Minas Tirith to fall.

Hey guys. I fell in love with fantasy this year. Ive read all of Brandon Sanderson’s cosmere books. 1-6 of wheel of time and 2 of James Islington’s Licanius novels. Im a few weeks out from another credit for the last Licanius, but I realized Spotify offers audiobooks and the Hobbit is on there. So, today starts my venture into Tolkien. I’m a few chapters in, excited to see where it takes Mr. Baggins.

Mine is how descriptive Tolkien is when it comes to landscapes. It's more like a me problem, but I always find myself unable to visualize Tolkien's description of places. Other than that, it's perfection.

Hello,
Today an interesting thing came to my mind (if it's right, that's why I'm seeking your help).
It seems that all Bad in Arda comes from Melkor: Sauron and other corrupted Ainur, orcs, trolls, dragons, even Fëanor and his sons' deeds, and most of the Black Numenoreans deeds.
But to me it seems like Saruman becomes bad by nature. I mean he seems to want power even if he never approached the Ring, or any known contact with something which badness would come from Melkor origininally.
If that's the case then we would have here another source of badness coming from an Ainu not corrupted by Melkor. This would make Saruman/Curumo a very important character from a philosophical point of view. This is what I find interesting.
Am I wrong? And if not, what do you think it says about the nature of Eä?

I always got the impression that the reason he fled from punishment was more due to his pride than anything else. He knew he was in the wrong and he knew he was back to being good, what right did the Valar have to demand that he face consequences? They clearly wanted to humiliate him out of spite. That’s what he thought, because deep down that’s what he would have done. His idea of redemption was just a lie, even to himself, because admitting he was wrong achieves nothing unless you atone for those sins. I believe this is deeply representative of Tolkien’s world view.

Or he wasn’t interested in redemption at all and it was all a ruse from the beginning?

One of the lesser discussed aspects of the two brothers is their relationship. We do not get informed about it a lot, mostly just Faramirs comments when griefing Boromir. But overall, from the little we get, I appreciate how healthy and brotherly it is.

Looking at how Denethor pretty obviously played favorites, the relationship doesn't seem to have gone sour. It would have been easy for Faramir to develop resentment towards his brother by feeling neglected or enstranged due to their differences. However, Faramir is able feel honest grief and regret upon his death and is very invested and moved by the story Frodo tells, more or less rooting for his brother. At the same time, he has no problem admitting his big brother is "hardier".

When he later talks about the temptation of Boromir, he is understanding where he is coming from and knows exactly why he got tempted, yet he is not in any way smug about the fact he resists the ring (granted, he was way less exposed).

The two brothers talk about their prophetic dreams and Boromir insists on making the journey, which can be seen as him chasing glory. Yet he actually moves away from the war, going to a council on a long, hard and dangerous solo travel. I have always seen this as a way to protect his little brother against the wishes of their father.

A worse writer may have written Faramirs line "I am wise enough to know there are some perils from which a man must flee" in a way that it comes across as a stab at Boromir, yet it never does. He factually describes their differences without judging and you never get the impression he had any ill thought towards his brother. I really appreciate this.

Would he instantly master it and improve it?

Or would it still be advance enough that Sauron would take a while to reverse engineer and understand it as much as the best humans enginners and scientists?

Im just saying cause as a maiar of Aulë whose craft is his domain logically he should at least be capable of understanding it to know its workings.

Im just imagining legion of orcs with guns and trolls carrying portable Tank cannons.

How do these texts differ, as the first within Unfinished Tales and the second as a standalone book?

Thank you.

Was wondering if anybody could translate what Gimli says in Balin’s tomb. According to the script, he says,

“Kilmin malur ni zaram kalil ra narag. Kheled-zâram… Balin tazlifi.”

All I could find was that narag means black, zaram means pool/lake, and khled means glass (according to the internet). I’m no language expert, so I’m hoping somebody smarter than I can give me those juicy lore nuggets.

As I understand it the island sank in the sea. At the same time Arda was made round. Is the sunken ruin now like Valinor only reachable by sailing a „straight path“ or was the ruin curved with the earth and now lies in the sea of middle earth?

Hello hello fellow Tolkien fans! For my English course, I've been instructed to write a 10-page paper on the use of descriptive imagery in a novel or novels. I obviously had immediately thought of the Lord of the Rings series but upon starting another reread, I'm having a hard time picking good passages. My thesis essentially reflects how Tolkien was able to create Middle-Earth by seamlessly integrating his use of language and descriptive imagery in his writing to create a realm full of vast landscapes and rich with language and culture. If you have any good passages, I would really appreciate the help getting my thoughts and evidence together! :)

Luthien and Beren had only one son named Dior. They left Doriath in order to live together and raise their son.

So...who did this kid play with as a child? Who helped Luthien give birth besides Beren. He's a good guy but no midwife.

Where there wild elves around them? Or were they completely isolated?

For example, if someone powerful(say Saruman) were to put on the Ring and challenge Sauron, would the Ring betray them or accept them as its new master?

I recall reading that Tolkien had a difficult time convincing Allen & Unwin to publish Lord of the Rings. Do we know if there are any remarkable editorial concessions required for the publisher to agree?

Hello, I'm a new fan of this vast, incredible world of Tolkien. Whenever I go into a book, I end up looking for character art (which is not good sometimes, due to spoilers). Recently I've been a bit obsessed with these books, so I looked more deeply into certain characters and ended up coming across several artworks (mostly) of Eönwë with wings. Is it a headcanon, or is canon?. Sorry if this question is too stupid or obvious. Thank you for the attention! :)

Knowing that Gandalf was sent to be a protector of Middle Earth, one would assume that he doesn't go out of his way to do anything that wouldn't ultimately lead up to the defeat of Sauron.

Our first introduction to him and the rest of the LOTR world happens in the Hobbit where he initiated a quest for the dwarves to retake their homeland from Smaug the dragon. I'm curious how important these events were to the events that lead up to Sauron's destruction, and how much Gandalf knew ahead of time for it to contribute to such an end.

How pivitol were the dwarves from Erebor in combatting the enemy's forces?

Would Sauron have been able to enlist Smaug in his war?

Neither Gandalf nor Sauron knew that the one ring would reemerges as a result of this quest, could they have?

What else was known or assumed for the usefulness of this quest. Was Gandalf essentially doing a side-quest in the lead up to defeating Sauron?

If we consider all his published work, what would be the optimal structure?

I was thinking something like this:

Novels

Companions

Compilations

Legendarium

Miscellaneous

Non-Fiction (could be the same as Misc above)

Those what I've come up with for starters, but has any of you tried to make any kind of organizing in this manner?

Thank you in advance!

Are there any other authors that have made a fictional world and history at all comparable to Tolkien in size, scope, and complexity? I’d be interested in recommendations of authors that have fictional worlds and series that have extensive lore of language, religion and history similar to Tolkien’s legendarium.

Because I have stumbled on a typo in the Hammond & Scull Index to the 2004 edition, at the end of the entry for "Hobbits"

see also Bree; Fallowhides; Harfoots; Mathom; Shire, the; Stoors; etc.

​

When Frodo, Pippin, and Sam arrive at Frodo's new house in Crickhollow, Merry has prepared hot, refreshing bath tubs for all three of them after their long journey. It's a fun scene, with songs and splashing and comfort.

But why are there three tubs at all? Frodo is (ostensibly) moving to this little house to live quietly on his own, maybe because his money is running out. Sam's coming too, as his servant. Certainly it's reasonable to think that he might expect occasional friends to come visit. But in this downsized, reduced-budget home for two (or rather, one plus a servant), is a triple bathroom really a logical place to allocate scarce space and funds? Is "taking baths together in a group" a central part of Frodo's expected social life? (Was this typical among British upper-class gentlemen in Tolkien's era?) How large was Crickhollow, and with how many rooms, if a bathing room that big was a part of it?

(Also, how the heck did Merry and Fatty heat enough water for all three? I had the impression that heating water for a bath tended to be s very involved operation before indoor plumbing and water heaters.)

In some drafts of the Silmarillion, Tolkien has Turin play a major role in the Dagor Dagorath. Here is one excerpt I found, though I'm not sure what the original source is.

Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Húrin and all fallen Men be avenged.

This text implies that Turin dies and leaves Arda, only to return for the Last Battle. This seems to contrast with Tolkien's other writing where humans spend a short time in the Halls of Mandos before leaving Arda permanently. Our only example of a human coming back to life is Beren, but he never leaves the Halls of Mandos, so he is still in Arda. Hurin seems to be unique in that he returns after leaving Arda. Is this interpretation correct?

I'm also unsure of how this would work in Tolkien's mythology. The Gift of Men is permanent. Turin leave the world again after Dagor Dagorath?

Dagor Dagorath was removed from the Silmarillion, so I guess it makes sense that it's inconsistent with the rest of the legendarium. Still, I'm wondering if any of these inconsistencies can be resolved.

For french Tolkien fans and all that didn't know about that wonderful poem

https://youtu.be/2Bqe7VQkrXA?feature=shared

A commentary/analysis will soon be released too

One interesting facet of the first age adventures is Túrin and Tuor’s stories happen roughly simultaneously. The difference is that Túrin’s story is one of calamity after calamity, each more tragic than the last, as a result of the curse of Morgoth; whereas Tuor’s features repeated devine intervention, starting with Tuor at his lowest and follows him as his situation improves. They are almost entirely opposites. So my theory is that this isn’t accidental. In order to enable Tuor to complete his mission and set the table for Earendil to make his voyage, Morgoth needed to be completely ignorant of Ulmo’s movements and Tuor’s journeys. So Ulmo, or more likely Eru, allowed Morgoth to be distracted with the children of Húrin and obsess over tormenting them, to the neglect of all else. In this way, Tuor is free to leave the land of his birth and travel to Vinyamar, get his mission from Ulmo, and travel to Gondolin, all unnoticed by Morgoth. Tuor’s journey leads directly to meeting Idril, the birth of Earendil, and the salvation of men and elves.

An interesting consequence of this theory is that the most perilous part of Tuor’s journey is when he accidentally runs into Túrin at the lake. With Morgoth following Túrin’s movements (or attempting to do so), it would have raised quite a few red flags to see a man of Tuor’s lineage heading north east with a Noldor elf.

So, after a month(https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/1brve72/oh_my_fcking_tolkien/) , I managed to finish the 3 Lord of the Rings books (I finished The Return of the King in less than a day!)

What a way of writing this man has, holy cow! And although the films are very faithful, ultimately they do not do justice to characters like Elrond or Faramir.

Elrond is not as annoying as in the movie and does not spend his time depressing Arwen. And Faramir is definitely much better because of his chapters..

You see, I used to read Brandon Sanderson, and I always complained about his romances... But I can't believe that Tolkien, in a single chapter, captivated me with the words that Faramir gives to Éowyn! I see why Tolkien's wife decided to leave her marriage to go with Tolkien!

There were several parts that moved me, but only one stood out. And that's when Sam thinks that Frodo is dead. That phrase of realization "He's not asleep! He's dead!" I almost started crying with him 😭

Anyway, it has been a very good trip, Tolkien is second in my favorite writers, because the first is Jules Verne. But he comes first in my fantasy writers

Now for the Hobbit and the Silmarillion!

There was a thread here the other day about the Redhorn Pass and the Fellowship's attempt to cross it. People with mountain experience weighed in. There was speculation about how high the summit of the pass might have been.

Tolkien went on a walking tour in of the Swiss Alps in 1911. His descriptions of mountain landscapes surely derive largely from this experience. It occurred to me to look at Letters 306, in which he shared his memories of the trip with his son Michael, to see if I could find out how high he went. (Guesswork is involved because, 50 years later, he was not sure of the exact route.)

The first passes he mentions as having crossed are “the two Scheidegge.” According to Wikipedia the Grosse (Large) Scheidegg “crosses the col between the Schwarzhorn and the Wetterhorn mountains at an elevation of 1,962 m (6,437 ft). The Kleine (Small) Scheidegg is “situated below and between the Eiger and Lauberhorn peaks at an elevation of 2,061 m (6,762 ft).”

The party also crossed the Grimsel Pass (he spelled it “Grimsell”). This pass “connects the Haslital, the upper valley of the river Aare, with the upper valley of the Rhône.” Maximum elevation, 2,164 meters (7,100 ft).

Later they stayed in a barn in a village at the foot of the Aletsch Glacier. The glacier ends today at an elevation of 1650 meters (5,413 feet). Since, like most glaciers, it has receded considerably in the last century, in 1911 it must have extended further down.

Finally, “I remember our arrival, bedraggled, one evening in Zermatt and the lorgnette stares of the French bourgeoises dames. We climbed with guides up to [a] high hut of the Alpine Club, roped (or I should have fallen into a snow-crevasse), and I remember the dazzling whiteness of the tumbled snow-desert between us and the black horn of the Matterhom some miles away.” Zermattt is at 1600 meters (5,315 feet). This was probably the highest point he reached – higher than any of the passes. Maybe somebody is familiar with the terrain and can speculate as to the identity and location of the hut.) But this experience is not relevant to that of the Fellowship, which was not mountaineering but traveling – and there is no way to know how close they got to the summit.

This is not really worth reviving the discussion for, but the German word Scheidegge, which I did not know, caught my eye. Tolkien was held up for almost two years in the writing of LotR, between Book IV and Book V, largely because he knew he wanted to bring up a force from the south to lift the siege of Minas Tirith, but he couldn't figure out where to get the troops. One possibility he considered was to divide the Rohirrim and send part of them across a pass in the White Mountains. At one point Éomer was to lead a force across this pass; then the role was assigned to Aragorn – and Éowyn! See HoME VIII pp. 243-44, 251-53. He drew the pass on his map, but erased it after he invented the Paths of the Dead.

The point is that he called it the Scáda Pass. (He marked the long vowel with a macron, not an acute accent, but I don't know how to make that character.) The Old English word scáda means a parting of the hair -- but it also means the divide between two watersheds. The German word Scheidegg also means a divide, or a watershed; the two words are surely “cognates,” meaning both descend from a word in the primitive Germanic language. Tolkien was fluent in both languages, of course; but it struck me that his Swiss experience might have suggested the name the Rohirrim gave to the evanescent White Mountain pass.

(I posted some of this on the earlier thread; I apologize for the repetition, and for taking up space with something so marginal. But something that may never have been noticed before.)