Is it really just not having sex in a while that makes someone an incel? I haven’t gotten anything in a few years and I recognize I have some things preventing me from having sex that will take some time to fix (living situations, appearance stuff, social abilities, small town).

However I don’t think women are to blame, I don’t think my inability is anybody’s problem to handle but my own, and I’m actively working to make my situation better while recognizing it won’t make me owed any sort of intimacy regardless.

So should the simple fact that finding sexual opportunity is extremely challenging for me within itself force me to lump myself in with that group, or is there a whole different mentality that is labeled that?

Many people say that self-confidence is essential in all aspects of life, but the problem is that they don't explain how to build it. If you feel like you haven't achieved anything in life, and the way others perceive you is negative—and they remind you of it every chance they get—how can you gain self-confidence?

Hey, it's me again. I took a step back, tried not to make this post prematurely like the last time (feels like it in hindsight).

Apologies

u/backpackporkchop - When I said it is easier for women, it was a paraphrase of what a female friend told me. I have had thisbconversation before and am aware to some degree that it is not necessarily a good thing. I realised after your comment that it could be taken wrongly when read out of the context of my post history. I also realised that there is at least one woman in my knowledge who is also struggling on this sub and this is unfair to her, and others like her who struggle. What you explained afterwards is something I might like to know more about in a different post once I find the right words to ask my questions. Also, I do not want to clutter this post.

u/Particular-Lynx-2586 - First off, we have our fair share of cultural differences there are things that it changes for dating for me as an Indian. At the same time I prefer going with a quality over quantity approach and want my asking out to mean something. Maxing out my attempts just to be in a relationship feels wrong to me.

We may not not always agree on things but I think it wasp unfair of me to be hostile towards you, someone who was trying to help. I'm sorry.

Small Update

This was probably the most unpleasant rejection I have gone through so far.

I was angry for the first time in a very long time, especially after what I was told by my friends about "options" and being the only one carrying the dating process. It felt like it flipped some switch in me the very instant I heard it and it took a very long time for it to subside.

My friend kept telling me that it was very wrong of the woman to ghost me like that and I told her that I am not dwelling on it. I didn't want to antagonise her since I fear that it would have caused a full relapse in conjunction to the above.

Jealousy has taken a huge toll on me. I know 2 people who are doing well romantically I did not expect to in their current state (attitude, confidence, etc). Some people on this sub did manage to find romantic success on varying degree. Here I am, 2 years in recovery, fighting and fixing whatever negative belief possible, pushing my limits in confidence and my body in terms of dance (granted I do like it for other reasons too) and cannot even get a first date which some have said should not be as difficult as I have being seeing it as.

Now, with even the anger gone, I have not really been feeling good even though I am over her, have dropped all thoughts of a potential future with her.

Which brings me to my next part.

The Question

I think I have lost my optimism. It was a trait I really liked and people have said that they liked this about me. I had the guts to deny the misogyny they thought was real. It was one of the best takeaways along with open gratitude and sincerity I have had in therapy.

I have lost trust in a woman I ask out. I allowed myself to feel my emotions, the butterflies, to trust her and now I regret doing that.

I am going into the headspace of looking for potential reasons to walk out on a woman who says yes to a date sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy. How can I expect her to trust me enough for her to commit to going out with me?

If I cannot trust her then, how can I trust her in a relationship? I think lack of trust is how a guy on this sub messed up with someone who sounds really sweet.

I have not been in a relationship yet and this could very much be a problem for me for when/if I do experience my first heartbreak.

So I ask everyone here, how do you allow yourself to trust someone when you have been hurt in the past?

I would like to hear your experiences too.

How did you overcome this?

What was it like when you did not regret opening up, trusting someone you have/had romantic interest in?

I'm 25 and haven't kissed a girl since high school. I've never called myself an incel, nor have I ever blamed women. I never had any luck with women, and I kept telling myself that I would figure everything out if I just started improving myself. So I did. I spent the past two years ferociously changing myself into the type of person that might be considered attractive under the right circumstances. Some of the changes include:

• I lost 130 pounds through calorie counting.
• Getting my bachelor's with straight A's (online schooling, terrible rural area)
• Getting a professional job
• Getting my driver's license and a reliable car
• Starting skin and haircare routines
• Engaging in new hobbies like painting and learning guitar
• Joining local community theater performances to try and grow my social circle

I've made some new friends, men and women. I can be a good talker and make people laugh. The problem is that it never feels like enough. I never feel like I'm good enough to ask women out. I've been rejected, and I respect those boundaries and never push, but the constant rejection always makes me doubt the work I've put into myself.

I'm too unattractive for dating apps to work, and I feel an incredible sense of guilt if I try to ask women out at a shared hobby space or in a bar. I hear so many horror stories about how women hate being approached by ugly men and that they want to be able to enjoy themselves without dealing with that. I don't know what else to change. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you for reading.

Hi everyone,

So, I'm a 30 year old hapa guy in the UK. I grew up in a white majority area (a 98% white town where I live), within an abusive and mentally ill white father and an abused, depressed Japanese mother. My father made many degrading comments about East Asian men growing up; sentiments I found echoed within the broader culture. As such, I see my father's racism not as an aberration nor exception, but rather, my father was a mad vector of the ordinary racism that permeates my society.

I don't know whether 'incel' describes me, except as a designation of my life situation. I know it's trite and might draw skepticism, but the locus of my anger and frustration is not women per se; it is more that I am resentful of an Anglo society I perceive as deeply racist. I feel that within such a society, it's not really possible for me to be loved for who I am, but only for what I symbolize to others; as an object of fetish or exotic curiosity at best, or else emasculating contempt otherwise.

I see sexual desire itself as deeply raced in ways that people don't often want to talk about. My hapa brother was subjected to gangrape by white boys when he was sent away to boarding school, since he was behaviourally disturbed and autistic and got expelled from mainstream education for being hyperactive, distressed, silly and disruptive. These repeated gangrapes within the boarding school were racially targeted because he was a soft, 'effeminate', and therefore (in the minds of his rapists) violable and racially inferior. This was extremely destructive to my little brother's sense of identity; it chewed him up from within until he didn't know what he was anymore. He thought he was trans for a while, but then he admitted that he 'didn't know what he was', and that he felt like a 'ghost in his body'. When I was caring for him, he had a seizure. I ran upstairs to sort the situation out, and he had racially degrading 'sissification' porn playing on his phone.

Likewise, my half-Asian sister is subject to a lot of sexual harassment. She has to walk home by taking different routes because English people tend to project racialized fantasies of submission upon her. I am worried about her; I am worried that she is copying my siege mentality and becoming isolated from social life, since in the pathogenic family environment we had, I am the closest thing she has to a father figure. And yet, I have trouble believing in the possibility of being loved or its worth, even as I am afraid that I am leading my sister into a life of solitude and (although I know the word sounds dated), 'spinsterhood'. My sister was also molested by my schizophrenic white father.

I am in psychotherapy, but my therapist is a senior psychiatrist and he refuses to engage with the broader social context of my experiences and that of my family's. He reduces all my experience to bad parenting, and is reluctant to engage with my racialized experiences as it extends beyond the family unit. It strikes me that psychotherapy did not evolve to address the experiences and concerns of racialized minorities or their traumas, but instead, is mainly tailored towards the hegemonic population and the heteronormative family unit.

Things I need advice on:

I have internalized this feeling of undesirability, which is also my social reality, although things are getting slowly better for East Asian men in the west. My formative years were spent internalizing this sense of sexualized inferiority and racialized emasculation, both from my father's views and the views of my broader society. I think that sometimes, I act in accord with stereotypes, in the sense of being socially passive, shy, withdrawing, unassuming. The only sexual experiences I have have been initiated by assertive women. I don't know how to have erotic agency and how to shed this internalization. I don't know how to believe in a strong way in my desirability, or how to navigate the sense of undesirability in the face of the revalorization of Asian masculinity because of changing cultural tides, a form of acceptance that appears very shallow and objectifying. I don't know how to feel secure in being accepted. In that sense, my grievance is not only that I was socially excluded, but that I cannot trust when I am included, because that inclusion itself often feels dehumanizing.

I'm a high functioning autistic 18M, and I'm getting really down and nervous about my future. One of my friends just got into his 4th relationship in 4 years. He (and the guy who keeps glazing him) keeps rubbing it in our faces. He's become such a douchebag, and that left me wondering why I can't find someone that would love me?

I don't have any trouble speaking to women/girls my age, I developed a good sense of humor so that I can reliably make people laugh around me, I work out in the gym, I'm not that ugly looks-wise.

All this added together, I'm just left flabbergasted and depressed that a guy who

1. Takes his frustrations out on his friends when he's been single for 2 weeks

2. Talks shit about the girls that don't want him anymore, but goes back to being nice to them when they want him again

3. Flirts with anything even resembling a girl while being in a relationship

Then you got a guy like me, who doesn't do anything like this and worked on himself with my previous mentioned points, and I don't seem to attract anyone.

To think he pretty much finds a new girlfriend yearly while behaving like that, and all I've got to show for my efforts is a knife in the back by a girl who pretended to like me.

I'm pretty scared that I'll one day become an incel, since teenage romance is already a no-go and I don't have any hopes for the future. I've got all this love inside me to give to someone, but it's fermenting into hate, anger and aggression.

This all is making me quite depressed and sometimes I have suicidal tendencies, I have no ambition for school anymore since why bother? Why would I do my best academically to get a good job, so that I can be lonely in luxury all my life??

On November 25, my now recent ex broke up with me, but not to the fault of mine. Her behaviour was simply inadequate in terms of being in a long-term relationship; she didn't know what she wanted, kept longing for a WLW relationship (she's pan) and, due to her sexual past, she thinks I'm too good for her.

In hindsight, she was quite a mess (emotionally distant at times, adrenaline junkie, prolly addicted to weed), and I guess we found each other at the wrong time. Obviously, I did cry (and I feel mildly depressed while typing this), because she was my moonlight. She was someone I would die for. I guess she wasn't the one, though. I thought that, since we were so similar to each other, we were meant to be. Such childish thoughts. Maybe it was more of a canon event, a teaching experience, if you will. Something given to me to show me how I'd be with "the one", whoever that is.

For what it's worth, I did a tremendous job playing my part. She said it herself that I would make an excellent boyfriend for someone who's more ready than her, and I believe so, too. All I need to do now is do all of that with someone else. I already found someone who I'm interested in (friend of a friend, I met them long before the breakup), and I straight up started showing my interest, flirting with her and I even just straight up said how I felt about her (she seemed to rrally appreciate that). She's already talking to this other guy tho who's interested in her (tho I dunno if she reciprocate those feelings). The guy in question in apparently 3 times my size too, so I may likely not succeed, but I'll try anyway (when I'm ready).

However, I am requesting some advice on how to meet more women, what to do in the meantime, moving forward, etc. Also, I hope I don't slip into another blackpill rabbit hole again, so I need some advice on how to manage that mentality. Thank you.

Hey all. Never thought I would post here but I am at the end of my wits and getting into a hole that I need reflection from others to get out of.

I am nearing 28, never had sex, kissed etc. and years ago I thought nothing of it. I always thought "oh well, just a few more years of improving and it will work out". But now I am at work and seeing all people near my age get married or children and it feels a bit humiliating to be honest, especially because women now tend to want a man with experience.

I am not someone to just wallow in self-pity, mostly. So I looked at ways to make myself more attractive: I have been going to the gym for years now, I have been educating myself about "interesting" topics like psychology and sociology in my freetime, even while riding the train to uni. I have been in uni and talking to people. I have tried studying really hard and focused. Every moment I basically used to do something I saw as productive.

Especially with the gym it is very taxing for me because of the sensory input, so some days in uni I was so burnt out but I kept pushing myself because I wanted to improve more, to basically check more boxes on the "checklist" for dating. I track basically everything I eat, do research about workout plans etc.. All while trying to keep a positive attitude towards other and being empathetic towards them.

I should also mention I am pretty tall, about 6'2'' in murica terms, facially also pretty decent with skincare routine, bone structure and everything.

I had a girl ask me in the first week of uni without even talking to her beforehand really "hey, we are from the same city, can I drive with you?" and I just said "sure" and then we did and while we were driving I tried to make small talk and to tell her she can relax or bring whatever she wants, I don't mind it and one day she broke it off. Alright then.

Next one was borderline staring at me in class sometimes so I tried to approach once out on the floor and trying to not be too overwhelming or anything. We had a really awkward talk where she was like "uh...yeah...ha...ha" while I was just trying to make normal conversation like any other man about the classes and stuff.

Then you had another guy in class that the women were basically swarming around. And the kicker is, he did almost the same thing as me, just with I guess better body language, smiling more (when I try to I think it feels forced) and with a more steady voice inflection I think, basically all the non-verbal things I am missing. Everytime a girl talked to him there was a sort of "wonder" in their eyes, some admiration, they were holding eye contact 100% almost, he could hit it off with anbody. He wasn't really stylish, or muscular, he was tall but not as tall as me. So I sat there, next to him, with half the classes women swarming around him, while I was just grinding gym, studying, everything I can and being almost burnt out. It was just really humiliating with me trying so hard and another guy just achieving everything without putting as much effort into it. And even worse, the women who were awkward with me in the conversations before just basically wanted to be around him 24/7.

Then in another class I talk with another guy who is like 5'3'', no kidding, ginger, has awkward bone structure, really low quality tattoos but is charismatic as fuck and he also pulled in most women and he had no real sense of disicipline in anything, basically just spent money as soon as he got it. Keep in mind I am not judging these guys for it, good for them but it just felt real bad.

Now I am not trying to be negative, I really am not, but I am not sure where I go from here. I tried working on my personality but I just can't do body language and facial expressions correctly, I am mostly neutral most of the time. It just doesn't come to me naturally. Honestly the last aspect in my life I could max out is money but that doesn't seem to lead me anywhere either, since most women don't seem to care and I am not a materialistic person either.

So basically my plan for life right now is "Gym 6 days a week, pump yourself up even more, hope you can get anywhere with that" and that's kinda it. It feels empty, like it is pointless and I really tried so hard and it feels like somehow I just repulse women and I went from high self-esteem through these years to falling into a hole now where I stopped trying. It feels like I am simply genetically unloveable by now, like I am defective or something, no matter how hard I try. I genuinely want advice on this, not to self-pity but for a solution. What do you guys think?

I just need to establish that even though I post here a lot, I actually do have more success than majority of the guys here. So I can actually verify I do these things.

With some exceptions, I think it's mostly me pushing away people, rather than me getting rejected. The only 2 times I was rejected was a GF rebounding back to her ex, and my last GF who was very very avoidant. Most times, I subconsciously make myself undateable? If that makes sense? Like, I don't return messages, I only talk to them when I'm horny, I barely go on dates with them, etc. In these cases, it's mostly the part of me that's terrified that my ultra conservative family won't like them (different politics, they have tattoos, different class, different race, different religion), or uhhhh I don't like them, but I like the attention too much. Sometimes, I ruin things because I went into them knowing I am actively having a depressive episode.

As for crushes, I have this issue where I tend to not believe in any of the signals women give out? I just interpret everything as a friendly gesture. Maybe they give me gifts, or they paint a portrait of me, or they cuddle me. I know these are acts of affection, but I think, my brain finds it dissonant that a girl likes me? There's also a massive fear that I'm misinterpreting a girl being friendly with flirting? I'm getting better at delineating when a girl wants to be besties and actully wants to date me. Or maybe I'm just too neurodivergent to tell the difference, we'll see.

I posted here in my recently me acting super entitled to a girl and getting mad at her for not putting effort and me treating women like shit. Something clicked in my brain and i finally get it nobody owes me anything, nobody sees me as subhuman, resenting women gets you nowhere, and becoming an incel doesn’t help. I was about to post in an incel forum and create an account and i didn’t do it because my problems is my fault. I finally took some accountability,stopped my resentment, and playing the victim, where do i go from here?

Was inspired to post this when someone (correctly) called me out for repeating incel-adjacent rhetoric in a post about dating.

I've never actually identified as an incel, nor do I think I'm vulnerable to start identifying as one. I've always considered myself very liberal and egalitarian. However, I keep encountering incel-adjacent ideas in the wild (particularly any subreddit related to love or sex or dating), and I'm concerned by the fact that I seem to be unconsciously adopting and repeating some of these ideas. I think these ideas themselves may be more dangerous than whatever negative experiences (or lack thereof) inspired people to post them originally.

I get the sense that the banning of incel subreddits has actually done more harm than good. It's caused a "toxic waste spill" of those ideas into other communities, because the people are still online but their containment zone is gone. Now I struggle to recognize those ideas as incel-coded when I encounter them in the wild, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't think I would be encountering (and repeating) these ideas if they were still segregated from more "normal" communities.

I did

So i dont hate women as i just stated . But i still believe i am an incel cause i know i will never get to have any type of relation with a women not cause i hate them just cause i am really akward and i dont think i can give them something worth for spending thier time with me . In other words i dont date but i dont blame women for it i believe that its my fault for not bringing something of value to the tabel. I made this post to ask if its ok to use the term incel regarding myself cause after all incel aren t 100% women haters .

Title. I never thought that this kind of love would ever find me, let alone from the most amazing, smartest, and sweetest girl I have ever met. She’s loyal, affectionate, and absolutely gorgeous to boot.

Just two years ago I had resigned myself to never being loved by anyone the way I loved others. I had been scared and adverse to relationships and women because of how I had been treated previously, but mostly hated myself and saw nothing but flaws in the mirror every day for not being able to get a girl let alone keep her. There’s an old post I made here about where I kinda was before I got into my current relationship if you would like to scroll past my many r/PokemonGoRaids posts. After cutting that thinking out and making positive changes to myself, my experience with my girlfriend has thrown all of that out of my head. She loves me and all my flaws, even hyperspecific ones that I had been taught to see and be disgusted with by other self-hating people online. I am shorter than her, with a small physique, useless in social situations, and a face/skull even my mother couldn’t love but in the end none of that matters because she loves me for me and i love her for her. If I can do it you can too.

I find that, while being a fairly progressive person, i have a lot of unconscious biases.

I tend to feel personally offended when other men are insulted, i make too many things my problem. I find myself getting angry at creative people out of jealousy, and subconsciously wishing for their failure. I spiral whenever i just read about a piece of media that portrays most of the men in it as evil. Etc. etc

I have all these incely thought patterns constantly and i fucking hate them because they make me feel like a terrible person. How do you get rid of them? I want to stop being part of the problem

I just seen this video and thought it might shed light on the "does personality matter" debate.

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1AjqUjkmZG/

For those of you who don't have facebook, the gentelman walks around the streets and makes polite greetings to men and women who pass him by.

When his tonality is weak nobody even notices him. Its like he is invisible. The tone sounds like he is timid and creates a sense of distance between himself and the other people.

In the next part of the video, he uses more confident and friendly tone, the tone speaks like he is taking to someone he has known for years already and it speaks out with permission and friendliness.

For those of you who say "ive tried talking to girls". Consider there is a difference between trying to communicate and effective communication.

This post is not to bash on those who are trying, but to help guys gain some clarity on where you could be improving "just improve bro" the nay saysayers will cry to avoid the hard work of introspection....but....yeah... improve! Theres nothing wrong with striving to do better.

"the guy in the video must be good looking"

well...we don't know because we can't see him. But let's assume he is.....how is weak tonality helping a good looking guy to trancend the exact same type of 100% ignore rate that incels consistently report on.

Also notice that it wasn't only women he was invisible to...it was men too. Its not only women who dont notice weak energy

Consider if you have energy that makes you stand out and get noticed, or if you have energy that doesn't.

You could be closer than you think to changing your experience with people

(Might get automatically banned because my old account got banned so idk)

I used to post on this sub one or two years ago, mostly about a story where i got obsessed for a few months by a girl online who didn't want anything to do with me. I kinda left reddit after once i had enough and just continued living my life leaving behind this big messy story.

i reread my old posts here realizing i was very mean and agressive towards the people of this sub, which made me feel bad once i acknowledged how much people wrote to me to help me about all this.

As time passed i failed university studies and im back in the countryside in my parent's house, far away from everyone and every activities. Nothing has really changed and there's still a deep hole in me waiting to be filled by a kind woman, but im calmer and enlightened.

So all of this wall of text just to say sorry to those i brought worries to and thank you to the people who tried to help me even though there was no success in sight

(Sorry for the bad english, my english levels regressed a lot from stopping my studies)

Feel like I'm different than everyone, but in a bad, bad way. Like I'm weaker than everyone else, less confident, less smart, less stable, less socially adept, more ugly than everyone else.

I can't even describe this feeling fairly. As if everyone has a certain "quality" about them and within them, and I don't. I'm missing that quality. Like a long metal rod inside your body that makes you able to withstand heavier weight. (I know the desc is weird, but I honestly don't know how to describe it.)

I don't know how to fix this. I try to find "proofs" against it in the real world, but to no avail. I've only a few close friends, and even they seem to be avoiding me and not wanna talk to me as much. I'm single (obvsly) and, with those goodlooking and charismatic men all around, I cannot compete.

I'm not venting here, I'm honestly at a lost and seeking advicr bcz I don't know what to do anymore. This isn't even about singleness, Idgaf about it, I just wanna be normal.

I don't know whether my self-loathing is objective (i.e. "I hate myself with a good reason") or subjective. But whatever the case, I don't want it, it makes me miserable.

What can I do?

I already looked into, and am looking into, feminism and how toxic the patriarchy is for men. Gender roles, oppression of gender expression, that kinda stuff. Giving my best in personal "side-gigs" (I write fiction, and do science studies; the latter currently with the goal of amping up my CV for PhD applications; soon, will also have a go at music production). I seek out friends and try to be as social as possible. I try to relax myself w/ video games from time to time and allow myself to enjoy myself. I try to tell myself my problems are just human and seek out similar and/or worse experiences (stories) from other ppl.

But I'm not sure it's working. Even the most ardent feminists I know still seek out conventially attractive manly men. Ppl don't respond as enthusiastically to me as I to them friends-wise. Video games are mere escapism and not a solution. I don't see how anyone shares the problems I have. And who gives a s* about my short stories and science papers if I'm broken inside?

I became a different person in the last couple of yrs (I'm 27), I'm doing everything I can, but I'm still broken.

Hello, everyone. First of all, I want to say that I'm not a fan of self-help literature. In fact, my final paper was about how much of the financial self-help literature is just a scheme for con artists to get money out of vulnerable people with books and theories that have little to do with reality. I don't think that repeating motivational phrases solves anyone's life.

That said, I want to talk about something I've witnessed and that, for me, is real and tangible: the power of confidence.

I'll use the example of a cousin of mine. This guy doesn't have anything that many say is "essential" to win someone over: he repeated several years in school, didn't finish his studies, is short, isn't handsome and comes from a family with little money. Even so, he is, without a doubt, the person who has gotten the most beautiful girls that I've ever met. Seriously. And his secret is very simple: confidence. He never lets these "defects" weigh on his self-image. He always presents himself as someone interesting, funny and confident in what he wants. This makes a huge difference.

Besides helping you interact better with people, confidence has another powerful effect: it improves your self-esteem. When you believe in yourself, others tend to believe in you too. I'm not saying that this will solve all your problems, but it's a starting point. Now, how do you build this confidence? Here are some tips that can help:

1. Take care of your appearance

You don't need expensive clothes or a model's aesthetic. Just take care of yourself. Take a shower, have well-groomed hair, and wear clean clothes that are appropriate for the environment. Small details make a difference.

2. Invest in what you're good at

Everyone has something they excel at. Whether it's video games, cooking, telling jokes or anything else. When you recognize and develop your skills, you feel proud of who you are.

3. Engage in social activities

Yes, this may be uncomfortable at first, but you need to expose yourself to social interactions. Start with simple things: go to events you enjoy, join a local group or hobby. You will make mistakes and feel embarrassed, but it is part of the process.

4. Exercise

Exercise is not just about appearance. It improves your mental health and increases your sense of accomplishment. Go for walks, workout at home, go to the gym — whatever works for you.

5. Get out of your bubble

If you consume a lot of online content, especially in communities that reinforce that “there is no way out” or that “nothing will change”, try to limit that. Focus on real experiences, outside the internet.

6. Look for small victories

Confidence is built little by little. Start with small daily goals: say good morning to someone, start a simple conversation, say something positive about yourself. These steps add up.

Finally, I want to leave you with an analogy: confidence is not so different from sleep. Sometimes, to sleep, you have to close your eyes and pretend to be asleep. Even if you don’t believe in yourself at first, try to pretend that you do. If you can keep this up long enough, it might stop being a lie and become a wish —a wish to live your life the way you want to live it. This changes, no matter how small it may seem, could be the first step to something much bigger and better.

I am a 19 year old guy and the topic of women’s sexuality just bothers me emotionally because it is a harsh realization for me that no woman will ever have those feelings for me.

I am quite chopped (Slang for unattractive looking) and do not have the traits women look for in a guy. Even though I have worked to change my appearance since last year by losing weight and changing my style, I still feel unattractive. I have anxious as hell when it comes to women and I feel I have valid reasons to because of the flaws I have which will immediately turn women off.

Online, I sometimes see women discuss in details about how horny they get whenever they see men, and see them discuss their sex lives with their boyfriends, discussing in detail certain acts, or talking about how they do stuff like sell content together. This makes me depressed because it makes me realize I will never be the subject of sexual attraction women have. Just the whole concept of sexuality in women is a grand enigma to me. I will never understand how that works, or how a woman could ever be remotely attracted to me both romantically and sexually without it being some form of sick joke or prank.

I have never went out of my way to talk to women I find attractive. In fact, I have always avoided having crushes ever since back in middle school when I had a crush who’s nudes got leaked. That moment probably drastically changed my perception of sex. I have done something sexual before (that was not paid) and I was even anxious as hell that entire time and couldn’t be my full self.

I have no idea what the hell to do. Just the topic of Women’s sexuality depressed me because I would never be the topic of attraction for them, no matter how much I work on myself. I have tried multiple times in the past to become asexual so I won’t be attracted to women anymore but it failed because of my damn libido.

I feel like I'm the last person you would expect to fall into red pill stuff, I'm a very feminine guy and I've always been a big feminist and such, but in the last few months, I've felt like I've been being pulled more and more towards red pill ideas even though I know they're wrong. I've been trying to go out of my way to consume more anti red pill and pro-feminist content to try to counteract these thoughts, but I feel like the reality I'm seeing around me is just lining up less and less with what I had always thought. I've tried asking out two different girls that I had become friends with and both times I was ghosted by them after they rejected me. And simultaneously I keep seeing the sort of hyper-hegemonic-masculine guys effortlessly talking to and pulling whichever girls they want. I'm trying to convince myself that just because this is what I'm currently seeing doesn't mean its representative of people as a whole, but it's becoming harder and harder to maintain that thought process. Help!

Hey, don´t know if this here is the right sub for this because i would say i was never an Incel. But i think this Problem could be simliar to the others what were posted here. Although I know I shouldn’t worry because I’m still young and it will come eventually, I have the feeling that something is wrong with me. Even though I long for a romantic or even just a sexual experience, I seem to be unable to have one. I just want to ask you, what could be the reason for this?

WARNING: The following might get uncomfortable, as I’ll be listing traits that are important for dealing with the problem, which I assess to be present in myself. What follows might sound like the message from the ultimate "pick-me," so if it gets too much, feel free to skip to the next post. I’m sorry in advance.

To analyse why i might have no sexual and or Romantic interaktion with the opposite gender i observed a few resons.

- I am an eloquent and extroverted person. I enjoy approaching people and I am socially active, being part of a debate club. I also take a volleyball course at my university, lead a D&D group, and love spending time outdoors hiking, camping, or taking photos with my camera. Based on this, I have excluded social isolation.

- I shower 3-4 times a week and also take care of my hygiene, so I have ruled out a lack of hygiene.

- I am actually a kind and caring person, and the suffering and happiness of those around me are important to me. I often help friends and acquaintances without expecting anything in return. Therefore, I have ruled out a lack of care.

- I would consider myself empathetic; I can usually tell quickly when one of my friends is not feeling well. Therefore, I would rule out a lack of empathy.

- I have several friend groups, most of which are fairly close, and I have a good to very good relationship with all the individuals in them. We often do things together. The friend groups are not exclusively male, and they are all relatively less conservative, with some being quite alternative. Therefore, I have ruled out a lack of social validation.

- Actually, physical attributes shouldn’t have an impact on the topic, but to preempt those who might try to make it one: I am 6'6" tall, slim, and athletic. Several people have mentioned to me that I look good (including women other than my mother or grandmother). No, physical attributes are not a reason—I am sure that even if I were shorter, it would still not be an issue.

- Money and a lack of financial security should not be an issue at my age of 21. I am still studying, but I also work in a store and as a tutor at the university.

I know this was probably a long list of things I’ve been able to rule out. I understand that this is something I should ideally handle on my own, but I’m still asking: Is there anything I might have overlooked, or is there any reason that comes to mind why I have had no success in this area? Feel free to write it in the comments. Thanks in advance for the help.

I have accepted that this is not going anywhere but I realised over the week that am still a little mad at her actions. Can't really say I hate her but I do feel really hurt.

For some reason, I have been using humour to cope with this rejection a lot. Either that or just helping friends in any way possible hoping it helps me feel better.

I had two conversations last week about what happened with my crush or I should say former crush at this point.

Convo 1

3 of us were hanging out for a late night snack post socials. One of them was my first female friend who knew about my crush since I shared her number to her since she lives in the area she reloacted to and her boyfriend hosts socials there. The other two were her boyfriend and a mutual friend in his mid 30s.

The mutual friend was talking about his dating struggles as we ate and when he was done, I jokingly told my female friend that I struck out for the 7th time this year.

She asked me what happened and I told her the story. I told her how upsetting I found the situation considering she said yes and even invited me once before doing this.

In a later part of the conversation she told me that it is far easier for women to get dates giving herself as an example. She said that even she can as a below average looking woman (sells herself short in my opinion). Her boyfriend and the other friend also reinforced this statement and said that it is pretty much one sided in the early phases of dating since women have a ton of options.

It was slightly emotionally triggering for me and I said that I do not want to entertain women who treat men as expendable. It was the very reason I quit dating apps since that is the general treatment of men there in my experience and I saw this only after being reprimanded by a woman from this sub.

One sided effort pretty much sounds like grovelling/begging in my books and I refuse to do it ever again. I hated doing it on dating apps and find it myself feeling very ashamed of myself for doing so.

On the other hand, this dynamic sounds like a definite recipie to a very toxic relationship.

She then told me that I am in the wrong city unfortunately and I told her it is a similar story in the other cities I have tried dating in.

In my opinion one could write off the entire human race if they looked for the negative. I don't see a point dwelling on this.

I realised that my voice was getting louder and I was angry afterall. I wasn't lashing out but I could feel this mix of sadness and anger in me. I apologised to them for raising my voice and tried to cool off.

My female friend then told me that I still deserve credit for trying so many times considering there used to be a time she eas the only woman I openly spoke to. She is happy that I have been making more friends over the years and about my growth in confidence and dance.

Convo 2

I spoke to my close friend eho helped me with my crusb so far about the previous conversation. She was very compassionate about it thankfully.

I told her that I have been on edge even though I am somewhat over her. I have been struggling with trying to understand why people do this. Why say yes when you cannot commit to it and why don't they even properly communicate they are not in the headspace to do so. Why do the very thing you complain of being done to you?

In this case, she suggested that yes, we can get coffee while I was playfully implying that is no longer a possibility as she said that she was moving out. So this was clearly not a case of saying yes out of pressure, since I was already politely accepting a potential no based on her response.

My friend said that there is some amount of truth about the conversation I talked about. She admitted that she herself is guilty of stringing along many guys in college in the past (I find noteworthy that I was not mad at her for some reason).

She then told me that me being so thoughtful, kind and socially aware at my current level makes me a very small minority as a person regardless of gender.

Also the people who are not really showing that much committment even on this level are not exactly happy either. Not denying it, people do have mental health issues and toxic beliefs that go unaddressed.

Both of the above comversations have had me thinking on how I should even approach dating now.

There is truth here to an extent. It is easier for women to get dates. It is because a huge majority men here are really desperate. I have seen it firsthand a couple of times and my colleague once told me about an incident where he refused an advance which surprised the woman who said she assumed this stereotype. It is not necesarrily a good thing either as I have learnt during my time on the sub.

For me, I don't think I am as desperate to get laid anymore. I want a genuine connection, someone I feel secure with knowing that she does not see me as someone she can easily replace.

A lot of people have told me that I have to play this "game". I refuse to play it. I would rather say "take it or leave it".

I don't want to beg for someone for liking me back, for even going out on a date taking multiple follow ups.

People date even when there are obstacles in the way in life if they like someone. My friend is a living proof of it. She is a divorcee and a domestic abuse victim. She was the one who asked out her boyfriend and was willing to trust him. They are both good friends of mine, her boyfriend knows very well that I see her as an elder sister.

Which is what leads to the question I ask now -

How much effort/enthusiasm should I expect from a woman who says yes to a date?

I expect the following -

Does not treat me like an option. Not sure how I would know this but it matters a lot to me.

Gives a proper day and time, place if she wants to, completely fine by me.

Confirms if we are still on for the date the day before/the day of the date.

Has some amount of excitement at least cause hey, there has to be some amount of romantic interest in a person you said yes to right?

If the date is called off for genuine reasons on her end, she communicates and suggests another time eventually.

I feel like an absence of any of the above should make me cautious at the very least if not consider it a red flag.

Not sure if this is the right way so I ask, is this the right way to go?

Am I being too harsh?

Edit : I forgot to add that I realised that this is my major insecurity I want to overcome. I feel scared that I will lose the person if I do not keep following up with the person.

I feel like I should be letting go when this happens.

sup dudes. I am in a countries military specializing in psychological operations and i can spot a psyop when i see one, the radicalization of young men in this movement is definitely a dangerous psychological influence, sex and lack thereof is one of the easiest manipulation strategies to radicalize young men so keep that in mind. I wanna offer any support to you guys thinking about making a better change for yourself and a bit of unsolicited advice.

first and foremost before thinking about dating I want you to settle into the process, in the most respectful way possible I need to tell you most of y'all aren't ready to date yet, congrats youre not incel anymore youre voluntarily celebate until you can fix your life. This is gonna be a long road to decondition your minds. To take your first step, ban yourself from bro podcasts, incel tiktoks, youtube essays about women, cringy self help books, fitness influencer comment sections, and any and all dating apps. Just burn all that crap and go touch grass for a moment. I promise you the majority of people in the real world put so little thought into the roles of men and women as a loud majority online do. focusing on it in that echo chamber is gonna make it so hard to decondition.

Second I think a lot of inceldom has to do with insecurity, insecurity turns to jealousy which manifests in rage, if youre an incel the hard truth is youre most likely insecure. whether thats intelligence, looks, fitness, or just a general sense that you think youre not as good as everyone else. For some people they deny it and it comes out as "Im perfect why dont i have xyz" or "ill never be like him" or "the women are wrong for choosing them over me". So how do we break this thought pattern? It's easy to say stop thinking like that but its just not that easy. Before your nuts started dragging the inside of your underwear you had a dream and vision of your life, start with that. focus on things OTHER THAN VIDEO GAMES WITH A FALSE SENSE OF ACCOPLISHMENT that can give you a sense of accomplishment. take up rock climbing, go to a gym, make art for all I care. wrap yourself up in something tangible with a solid healthy community that can give yourself a sense of accomplishment.

third find a community, find a hobby or a goal that has a community of healthy individuals, especially men that you can emmulate and look up to. leave your incel thoughts in the dumpster, youre a fresh baby and youre gonna learn from them. Youre not gonna spew that garbage to them cus they see that ideology as garbage, youre gonna listen more than you talk, youre gonna be kind and thoughtful. Say things like "I like that jacket", "Hey youre pretty good at that can you help me learn?", "Good morning!". most people are not gonna be mad or turn you away if you approach them with upmost respect and kindness, if they do theyre dorks and you dont want to be their friend anyways. youre essentially a blank slate of kindness, you have zero ulterior motives other than building a strong foundation of friends, and building a skill or profession that helps with your insecurity. During this period of making healthy friends no women will be approached by you. youre not gonna hit on anyone, youre not gonna focus on dating at all, you are there for yourself, your physical health, and your mental health THATS IT. your new community is gonna give you more motivation to work on yourself than dorks like david goggins ever will, trust me. And if you need a combat vet "manly man" to tell you so then here I am. slide in these DM's ill show you how encouragement can go a long way.

fourth: after doing this for awhile and building confidence youre gonna build relationships with women. Nope still not dating. youre gonna be friends with women. their looks dont matter even the slightest, cus whoever you decide to be friends with is now friends for life, youre not gonna change your mind on that. I cant tell you how important it is to have a good friend whose a girl. besides the fact women make amazing friends theyre also gonna be your bedrock. Most of you havent interacted with a woman outside of trying to date them or your mom, which is part of your problem. bumping uglies is like 1% of what people do in a relationship, the other 99% is being glorified best friends, so learning that women are people just like the rest of us and getting them off of a fictional pedestal is gonna go a long way.

fifth: Do some checks on yourself, hows your insecurities? hows your rage? whats your thoughts on women? when you think back to the crap you were posting a 6 months to a year ago are you embarrassed? are you generally happy? you know what the answers to all these should be. This self reflection is critical. because itll condition your mind and reinforce your behavior. also check your condition, are you hygenic? are you kind? do people seem to like to be around you? hows your social skills? i guarantee most of this stuff has gotten better.

sixth: youre ready to go find a partner, take it slow. you should at this point be a lot happier being alone, so dont worry about the timelines. I'd personally stay off the dating apps, incels are wrong about pretty much everything, but they aren't wrong about the greedy and isolationist behavior of dating app companies. they really do prey on people and make you feel like crap which will tank your confidence you spent so much time building up. theyll make you believe youre something youre not and start this whole process over. So how do we date in this modern era? like we have for thousands of years, youre gonna do it the same way you found your friend group, with kindness and acception. youre gonna run into people who are mean to you and you might want to fall back to your old ways, dont, use your social network of real friends you built up. You also have a friend whose a woman now, seek her candid advice on what to do to help you, shell steer ya right. women also like being set up by their other friends, why? cus it shows youve been vetted by at least one woman to not be a total nutjob. you can also approach people, thats fine. a nice way to do it is approach them with a note with your number. It's a good way to do it cus 1. if they arent interested in you they dont need to decline 2. it guarantees you wont be sitting there like "well whatever you are 2/10 anyways blegh". remember being nice is the name of the game. look how far its gotten you so far? its okay if someone declines you. When you approach them say "Sorry to bother you, I just wanted to give you this" then walk away. dont keep forcing interactions, 80% of them are gonna be misses, but at least you swung your shot and it wasnt a big deal to either party in the end. This will take time and remember youre in a better spot than you were months ago and shit'll buff out in the end.

thats it! message me if you need me, the first step is the hardest but youll get there. like I said before lack of sex and relationships is one of the easiest ways to radicalize people or manipulate them. go look up japanese propaganda used against Australians from WWII, to the russian propaganda in Ukraine. The idea of "Chads taking your women" is not new, its been utilized by people since the dawn of time to make people feel like crap and demoralize them. on the other side it's really difficult to defend ourselves form it. we follow the tribe of people around us, if youre being fed the propoganda nonstop it'll be tougher to fix it. but if you get yourself into a socially healthy group its gonna be much much easier. at the end of the day YOU pick who you want to be influenced by YOU decide if you want to be insecure YOU decide what you want to let enter your mind. no one else. during the process just keep asking yourself "was i really happier before?".

Hello everyone. After lurking here for a while, watching Contrapoints's video on incels finaly made me realize something, and decide to post here.

Basicaly i would not consider myself an incell. I find the idea of being angry at women because they don't want to fuck you or have a relationship with you absurd. However, I still can relate to incels a lot.

For different reasons, such as being an undiagnosed autistic guy, having a bad relationship with my father, or feeling like i always fail to meet people's standards and my own, i have an abysmal self esteem and am really anxious and prone to catastorphising. So I l always have been pretty socialy isolated, and never put myself out there, and at 25 years old, still have never had a girlfriend or sex. As the years went by, this led to a feedback loop of negativity : i felt that since no one aproached me or flirted with me, while more and more of the people i knew (including my little brother and friends) where geting into relationships, that must be because i was unherently unlovable. Unlike incells, i didn't blame it on being ugly, or shy or anything else, because i knew ugly, shy,etc... guys did sometimes manage to find love, even if it was harder for them. So, due to my lack of explanation, i just assumed there was something inherently wrong with me, which made me even more scared of actualy exposing myself, because i thougth that if i did indeed keep being rejected, it would validate all those fears and thougths.

All the while, i did hang out on incell adjacent spaces on the internet, because while i didn't agree with them, i felt that they were the only ones that got what i felt like. And despite having thougth for a long time that i wasn't absorbing their ideology, i now realize that i still kinda did : i did think that no women could ever like me because of factors i never could have control over. It's just that instead of blaming them for it, i thougth "ok, that's fair, i would likely do the same at their place". And i did blame society as a whole, just not particular individuals. Even though realisticaly, the only thing that held me back was my fears, altougth to be fair, my unusual circumstances haven't helped me either (i have had to move from home to home and from school to school pretty often, which coupled to my autism and lack of social skills made making any kind of long term relationship really hard).

With hindsigth, i realy get a lot of the thougths, and i'm scared that i do.

The catastrophizing, putting sex and relationships on a pedestal, feeling like no one you try to explain how it feels like to gets it, the thinking you are worth less than everyone else and are constantly being judged by society because of your lack of relationships. The feeling that there's just something inherently wrong with you and that nothing will ever change it.

Basicaly i think that the problem is that i thougth geting a relationship and being loved by a girl would be the only way for me to finaly learn to love myself and be happy. Even though deep down, i knew that while it would help, it wouldn't be enough, and anyway it wouldn't be fair to impose that on my hypothetical partner.

I'm slowly trying to get out of that mindset, but it's hard, and i understand (altougth i don't aprove) why so many men take the easy way out and choose to blame genetics, society or women instead of trying to improve.

At least, this year, i did manage to improve on many other aspects of my life, started getting into therapy again, and have started to see myself in a sligthly better ligth. So who knows, maybe i will actualy find someone someday, or even better, finaly learn to love myself without constantly needing someone else to validate me.

The problem is that while i intelectualy know all the thoughs i had were wrong, it's really hard for me to not imediately revert to them every time i feel sad or anxious. So, while i'm trying to abord the subject with my therapist, i would also like to know if any of you could give me advice.

Edit : sorry, meant to writte "incel mindset" in the title

I work in a hospital and its the only place I'm surrounded by people around my age (late twenties to early 30's). I try very hard to be friendly to everybody. I used to think that I just wasnt in the kind of unit where people socialized much outside of work, but the other night I was listening to my coworkers talk at the nursing station and I realized most of them were hanging out outside of work and I'm simply never invited.

I feel incredibly stupid typing this out, but this has been a recurring issue with me everywhere I've been or worked since I was a kid:being ignored or not really considered by my peers. I'm turning 30 next week but I still feel as insecure as I did in hight school. I'm not sure what I do wrong, or what I'm not doing that I should be doing. I have this inescapable feeling that there is somthing broken in me that makes me not fit in with other people. I spend alot of time trying to analyze myself compared to other people around me to figue out what I'm doing wrong but it's hard to figure out.

I know nobody here can give me specific advice without knowing me so I wont ask for that. But maybe somebody here has had similiar problems and figured it out somehow. Thank you guys in advance.

So, I got my schedule changed at work and my new co-worker is A girl, I quickly talked to her (from now on we are going to be together 8 hours for 6 days a week anyway) today she told me she had a boyfriend, and surprisingly that didn't generate any feelings for me, she is fun to chat with and I was thinking of giving her a dessert from the store next door but I don't know.

I keep thinking that I will never be successful in dating and that a lot of the positive talk they try to sell us is false and meaningless, but I'm glad to be able to have a minimal approach to a woman after a while.

Should I try to replicate this in some way with more women ?

Take this case as something that fate put in my way?

I was looking back at my music playlists from a few months back, and I noticed I saved a playlist from a female friend I think last year?

I played her playlist, and it was nice, a lot Pop and Folk music. Two songs stood out to me the most though.

First was, Falling Behind by Laufey. I actually cried. A song captured my goddamn feelings. It captured how I felt like there was this gigantic gap between me and everyone that just kept expanding as I grew older. Not only that. But this song was written by a woman. And I found it in the playlist of a woman. The song was also quite popular. So it's not just me, it's not just men. It's women, and a lot of normal people feel this way too. I'm not alone.

The second song was a bit older, but I think this was a rerelease. It was, Hello My Old Heart by the Oh Hellos. And yeah, I cried again. The song was about how you can't wall off your heart if you want to be happy, and you can't abandon it after getting hurt.

I... reached out to said friend, which was difficult cuz I haven't spoken to her for a few months. I asked her for music recommendations. Fuck me, women have been singing about feeling too dysfunctional and hurt to ever be in a relationship all this time. Even Taylor Swift's sung about being the toxic one.

Goddammit guys, we're not fucking alone. Normal people feel this way too. Women feel this way too. We're not irreversibly fucked. We weren't uniquely wrong goddamn. Everyone's felt like they were a freak before. It's normal. Goddamn.

I'm a 14 year old boy. I have no friends at school, I don't talk to anyone at school, I sometimes skip periods now because it feels like it's useless to be around people. I have severe ADHD, depression, and maybe social anxiety. I was online for 8th grade, so I didn't leave my room for a lot of the time. I have no social skills, I'm anxious at school and constantly worrying. Seeing other people socialize and have fun makes me feel more sad, and both my ADHD and depression medicine doesn't really magically fix it.

Im especially afraid to talk to the other gender, I've been told to stop treating them like they are special and to treat them like they are a guy, but it doesn't really work, I still view women as somewhat alien, not in a bad way, but in a way where it feels useless to talk to them because they have a complex life and different interests. I've been asked out as a joke ("my friend likes you", even though they never talked to me).

I have a lazy eye, I've been made fun of it quite a bit by other guys, reminded of it, which caused my insecurities to get worse, my entire family smokes, I don't dress good, my hair is long and unstyled, I haven't talked to my dad in over a year, and even talking about everything to professionals doesn't feel like it works, the solutions and help they give me is eventually forgotten and not applied, and I'm just as worse as I was before

I've seen people say that you should be nice and have a good personality and people will treat you good, but everytime I tried to do that I would get taken advantage of, or made fun of. I'm not autistic, but just for example, autistic people usually get made fun of or taken advantage of because they are usually nice and less cynical.

How do I fix

Every time I read a post here, I see a guy talking about how women treat them poorly or like they don't exist. They say something about how women don't approach them, or try to be their friend, or flirt with them etc.

But I talk to a lot of different groups of people, and what I've noticed is that (in my experience), the hardest people to be friends with and approach are these exact guys. When I try to be friends with the boys who aren't too popular and don't talk to women much, they completely shut me off and act uninterested in everything I say. Whereas popular boys talk to me completely normally, laugh at my jokes etc.

Why is that, and is it about me specifically? I think it's true for my friends as well, to some extent. My female friend was on a course and tried befriending some boys there, but they ignored her completely and instead only spoke to each other. And it's not a gender-neutral shyness thing, because they befriended boys from other schools.

So why do these boys, who often complain about wanting a girlfriend and why women avoid them, brush off every girl who gets close? Is it about me specifically - am I not pretty enough to be seen as a "woman" to them? Or is it an overall trend for shy, unpopular boys people might call "incels" to avoid replying to any girls? If so, why? Or am I miscategorising these boys at my school - where are real incels found? What would you do if a girl tried speaking to you, as an incel?

Stupid ramble but I'd love to hear your thoughts.