Rules

Hi everyone!

Sorry if this is silly.

I want to know something about the lore related to the Dawning event.

I am streaming Destiny 2 to raise money for charity in about two weeks, on Twitch, for two days and approximately 10 hours a day. So I would want to know something about the lore about the Dawning event. After all, I will need content for 10 hours and that can only be so much gameplay. I am planning on making a jar full of pieces of paper, each with a NPC or story on it, and read it to the viewers.

Resources, videos, anything is fine. Lore about Eva Levante or the NPC's you give the cookies to is fine too. Fun stories, or stories about planets. Can anyone help me?

I believe there is a lore tab where a guardian swaps ghosts, but I cannot find it. (I believe it was Shin Malfur?) Could anybody point it out to me?

So fundament is suppose to be a gas giant, but also has an ocean that the different continents float on after crashing into the planet? However, I also thought that maybe its just a different element cause I vaguely remember something about hydrogen so maybe it just had so much gravitational pull it compressed the hydrogen into liquid maybe? Am I missing something or is this just summed up as space magic?

I'm a warlock main so I'm not sure but I was reading The Swarm lore tab where this happens

A Vanguard vulture-class battle carrier shrieks through the sky above, just long enough for a lone Guardian to drop from the clouds, a meteor wreathed in lightning, bringing down havoc from the skies.

And it doesn't necessarily say its more powerful due height but seems to imply this thundercrash is a big one.

So what if I throw a Nova Bomb, can a titan use the gravity to slingshot around it to build up speed and create a more powerful thundercrash and nova bomb?

For example:

Fallen + Hive = Hiraks, the Mindbender
Cabal + Hive = Gahlr
Taken + Vex = Quria

Then we have Fallen using Vex technology such as Splicers, and by extension Atraks. Even if it doesn't look like it by their in-game models Wrathborn Cabal and Fallen could be considered fusion with Hive.

Are there some examples of Fallen + Cabal fusions? Or Hive using Vex technology? Cabal and Vex? I am probably forgetting a bunch so I would like to hear some lore about this.

...Have the inciting incident of this episode be that Fikrul can scornify people who aren't dead, and then have the big exciting midway point be him bringing back a dead guy, something he could famously already do without the Echo?

Why go to all this trouble of setting up new powers and then just have the big drama be something he could do anyway?

(And why are the characters surprised when he brings Skolas back from the dead mid-fight as if that's not literally exactly what he could do to any Eliksni echo or not?)

I'm curious about the Dynasty lorebook from episode: echoes. This book was about the final days of the Qugu race as they are attacked by the Hive. The most interesting part of this book for me was the third part where it details the final end of this people.

In the final attack by Te'Qal, the entire race of people are connected as one through darkness. It's noted that Te'Qal could hear the ancestors and knew they were one. As far as I understood they inflicted a critical blow to one of the pyramid ships but were destroyed by one of its destructive waves, but a voice tells them to accept salvation.

As far as I understand, what remained of the Qugu civilization, through all generations were connected through darkness by Te'Qal and then the witness absorbed them into the collective? That part is a bit harder to understand? Did they become a part of the witness collective or something else? It says they became an echo, but what exactly does that mean? The witness turned them into an object or absorbed them in some way?

As far as I understand, their bodies are obviously destroyed but their consciousness or some aspect of their souls remain as a part of the echo?

But the echoes were created with the witness death, so they had to have been something else when that voice reached out and told them to accept salvation. What exactly happened and what does that mean for Te'Qal in general?

Maya seems to imply that Te'Qal is in some way alive or there is an active consciousness able to interact with her. In one of the other lore books from last episode, Maya said she had a companion with fascinating physiology giving her great reassurance. So, if that was an echo of Te'Qal, are they really dead or what is the state of that existence? I'm very confused.

Surprisingly, Elsie's timeloop didn't get any information leading up to, during, or after The Final Shape. Time to argue about it again?

###The Suspects

The Witness:

Some people have speculated that the Witness was the cause of her loop, using her as a tool to examine all potential failures. This never seemed very likely, but some interpreted The Dark Future as resulting in the Traveler's death (debatable), which could be bad with the Witness needing Light and a live Pale Heart for its purposes.

I think the Witness is the least likely of any suspect, as this current loop resulted in less overall torment (secondary Witness goal) and the utter failure of its final shape.

The Traveler:

Not one for speaking. Rarely one for intervening. The Traveler is reluctant to ever influence others in any way other than providing, whether they are partaking in Darkness or committing mass murder. However, it does occasionally intervene: when the Light is threatened. When Rhulk tried to convince a Ghost to give it the Light, the Traveler uncharacteristically blew it up. When Ghaul sequestered the Traveler and left Light only for himself, the Traveler found the strength to not only break free but vaporize Ghaul.

Nothing in the Traveler's known history indicates that it could cause a timeloop, but we know so little about it. It isn't likely to send a person on a thousand-year detour, but it might.

Bray Industries:

No Time to Explain reveals that the Brays have some technology that allows them to travel through different "windows" through time. Clovis goes to "window 3025" to retrieve the rifle from his dead granddaughter from some point in some future.

Could her loop be related to this? Either caused by someone resetting her for the sake of the future, or due to a technological issue?

The Vex:

Consider Alkahest and how Exos are tied to the Vex. Vex fluid is in the minds of Exos. And even though some Vex courted the Witness, they are not always in agreement.

Perhaps one faction of the Vex was able to manipulate Elsie via her Alkahest in order to send her back in time, giving her, and therefore the Vex, a chance to continue existing.

“Ward” of “Dawn”

This weekly thread is for asking questions about the world of Destiny. Any lore-based question is valid. Rather than making short Question posts, we recommend users check here first.

All responses must be friendly, respectful, and nonjudgmental. Top replies should provide a source for their answer or they may be removed.

The goal of this thread is to provide a space where users can ask any question and expect well-sourced/researched answers.

###Remember to tag spoilers!

Resources:

• Ishtar Collective (the complete lore)

• Dredgen Yor, Shin Malphur, and the Drifter

• The History of the Cabal

The light vs darkness saga has ended which means we can now look back at the story and lore with a closer magnifying lens. I felt I should post this because I see a lot of players who may be confused on the nature of the Darkness and the Witnesses role in it (If you don't feel like reading through this you can just watch Byf's video on the topic)

1. The witness is not the Deep:

!The witness is an amalgamation of a species known as the precursors. The precursors were just like the humans of the last city! They had factions that made up a consensus with four major bodies. Nihilists, Solipsis, Bountiful and penitent. The purpose of this consensus was to discuss how to best enact the final shape, which in their minds was the end to all pain and suffering in the universe The witness used the power of the veil to fuse the minds of the Solipsists who had finally had enough and decided to kill the remaining factions!<

2. The witness's logic is flawed

!The precursors were like guardians. The faction known as the bountiful supposedly used the light to such an extent that it wiped them all out. This may have shaped the ideas that the light is a force of pure chaos and propelled the idea that it should be eliminated among the Penitent. The solipsist believed that the final shape was within themselves and they shouldn't be seeking some grand purpose. The nihilists simply believed the final shape would be achieved through the extinction of their species. The penitent had a very specific view of the final shape. They believed that all suffering would be preventable through the final shape but they couldn't come to a agreement on what that shape would actually look like. (This disagreement is important to note as it's the witness's greatest secret and biggest failure)!<

!The reason why this disagreement is important is because the pentinet wasn't interested in spreading their gospel of the final shape. They wanted to enact it and would use violence if their way wasn't realized (Sound familiar yet?)!<

!A precursor by the name of HNW047622 rightfully points out that if their own species couldn't come to a unified idea of the final shape then how could any other species?!<

3. The first knife

As the precursors descended further in uncertainty the pentinet made their move. Having finally had enough they killed their political adversary and joined the minds of those who agreed with its philosophy. As the first being who touched darkness in the destiny universe The witness became the first knife of the winnower. An entity that is, As best as we can tell, Darkness itself.

The nacre lore tab gives us a firmer insight into the Winnowers mind.

'This great, beloved cosmos. Always decaying, always finding that same old lovely pattern, despite every candle-flame burning amid the flowers. A billion electrons taking the path of least resistance. In Darkness or in Light, someone is always making my choice.

Be seeing you'

The Winnower doesn't care how something is done as long as it leads to more killing and Darwinism. Use light, Use darkness, As long as you're showing your right to exist. Only the strong deserve to exist!

The Witness isn't like that. It has terms and conditions. It wants to end all suffering by ending all life. It wants the flower game to end on ITS terms and no one else's. It isn't interesting in playing the game meant to extend forever between the light and dark.

4. Oryx, Disciple of the Deep

Let's put aside the power scaling and lay out some facts about why the witness and its disciples may not have been the greatest avatars of darkness they so claimed to be.

1. Philosophy

None of the disciples, Save for maybe savathun, Actually understood darkness as a whole. Remember that the darkness itself is a neutral force of the universe and can be used in ways even the witness has no knowledge of (Strand and maybe even Deep as it was gifted by a Dissenter Statue). It doesn't have an agenda. Its the witness that gives darkness it's corruption. So where does that leave all of the disciples?

2. Actuality

The Witness never shared its goals to its disciples. Every single one of them were lost and had to fill in the blanks on what the final shape actually was. Savathun interpreted it as sword logic. Rhulk viewed it more as mass extinction and Nezerec had no thoughts on the matter. In fact it's always been his M.O to survive so he can feed on more pain and fear. Calus is just the universes biggest narcissist.

3. Reality

The witness disciples were perfect to enact the final shape and were hand picked to achieve that task but we're never truly forces of the deep. That role would have to go to oryx who truly embodied the Winnowers philosophy of the strong cutting down the weak.

"Ah, Oryx, how do we explain it to them? The world is not built on the laws they love. Not on friendship, but on mutual interest. Not on peace, but on victory by any means. The universe is run by extinction, by extermination, by gamma-ray bursts burning up a thousand garden worlds, by howling singularities eating up infant suns. And if life is to live, if anything is to survive through the end of all things, it will live not by the smile but by the sword, not in a soft place but in a hard hell, not in the rotting bog of artificial paradise but in the cold hard self-verifying truth of that one ultimate arbiter, the only judge, the power that is its own metric and its own source—existence, at any cost. Strip away the lies and truces and delaying tactics they call ‘civilization’ and this is what remains, this beautiful shape"

This is oryx being directly acknowledged and complimented by the Winnower.

I’m just curious because shouldn’t Zavala’s armor be way to heavy for him to walk around in now?

clan is having a lengthy debate on this topic for specific reasons.

(a happy late belated Oct:31 Halloween!). so as it says above..... what are the most nerve wracking, spine/mind chilling, creepiest & terrifying psychological horror moments/examples, across the entire destiny lore?

Hive

Oryx,Savathun and Xivu Arath are Pure evil/Influenced:

They were influenced by the Witness and with the deal they made with the Worm Gods they become the Hive we all know by killing many races to feed their worms and survive, Savathun despite knowing the truth and being blessed by the light remains a genocide monster like her brothers, They didn't care about the races that they were killing and felt no regret.Same with Crota and all the Hive

Fallen

Taniks,Aksis,Skolas,Eramis are Pure evil/broken(Eramis also influenced):

Their houses killed a lot of innocent humans,Awokens on Earth and on the Reef because they were guided by vengeance cause the "Great Machine" abandoned them and caused the Whirlwind that almost wiped out the Eliksni. We can see humans bones scattered all over the the Devil's stronghold,Taniks was sadist and killed Andal Brask, Aksis seeks with Siva to take revenge on guardians and Skolas used Vex's technology to breach into the Vault of Glass and started a riot in the prison and named himself Kell of Kells. Eramis on the other hand was influenced by the Witness to create the House of Salvation to gather all houses into one and joined them with the darkness and getting revenge on the Great Machine but then we all know what happened, we'll see if she can be redeemed.

Vex are Pure evil or well just doing their purpose

if we are talking about the Sol collective, their only purpose is to convert every planet and beings into machines, all must be Vex, no exceptions.

Sol divisive were influenced by the Witness into creating a copy of the Veil and worshipped darkness.

Nessian schism were influenced by the power of the Echo that Maya had and with the purpose to create a new Golden age

Cabal

Dominus Ghaul is pure evil, no explanation needed.

Calus was broken/influenced/pure evil: After he was exhiled on the Leviathan by his daughter and felt betrayed by everyone he was desperate until he met at the edge of the universe The Witness that gave him a new purpose: being the last one before the end of the universe. With his loyalist he attacked countless civilizations for the Darkness and made their strongest members his Shadows for getting revenge on Caiatl and Ghaul but they all failed. Even when he became a Disciple and having his own army he wasn't satisfied, he was just a pawn for the Witness, an obstacle for us and a threath for her daughter, he didn't want to change, just fill an empty void.

The Witness was pure evil

Rhulk was broken/influenced

Nezarec was Pure evil/influenced

Tell me others and what do you think?

The resemblances are crazy: both chasing a final shape where all individuality dies and all consciousness is merged into one, believing the idea that this final shape will end all suffering... even Viktor himself kinda looks like the witness.

You also have the different armies and people convinced by his idea and fighting for him, and Viktors defeat comes during a huge fight of different factions with a few people stopping him personally, in this raid boss encounter type scene.

What is also really interesting is that you find the same color palette in the root of nightmares raid as in arcane, more specifically the physical world under Viktors influence, similarly to RoN.

Like Fynch, Nimbus, Toland, Shin Malphor, Shaxx, Rhulk,...

I don't care if the character is still alive, dead, too much of a side character. Just a character you would like to return.

Sry for the noob question

We're all familiar with various characters wearing exotic armor. Saint-14's literal helmet or Osiris's Sunbracers. But do they still offer the same abilities we have access to in game? Same goes for exotic weapons too.

Anyone else feel Eido is totally untouchable and infallible by the writers' account?

In Plunder, Eido was completely right to have faith in Eramis as she saved her life. All it takes is a pep talk from Drifter to move past her father's lies. She potentially puts everyone's safety at risk by talking to Eramis through comms, no one cares. Zero consequences.

Everyone not named Spider automatically likes Eido, from Eramis, to Variks, to Namrask, to Crow. She magically pulls all kinds of info on the Witness from Ketch databanks (apparently, the House of Winter had conversation transcripts between Witness precusors). Guardian goes along with her plans without question. Crow convinces himself to do the same.

Finally, I feel like of course Eido will come up with a solution to Fikrul and Mithrax, unless Eramis does it, in which case she's right. Of course she'll be right to trust Eramis, the unrepentant mass murderer. People forget Eramis helping House Light sometimes isn't some act of kindness, it's because Mitbrax and Eido are the only worthy leaders besides her. Everyone agrees Spider would suck as Kell of Kells anyway. And Variks missed his shot looong ago.

EDIT: Also, it's annoying to me how after all the times the importance of trusting in each other has been brought up, we go behind Zavala and Ikora's backs even though they would probably agree with solid reasoning, especially since we're their personal friend and the Witness/Savathûn/Calus/Oryx etc etc etc slayer who can just kill Eramis if needed.

Basically title. I remember hearing somewhere, whether it was a vidoc or a Byf video that the Witness could’ve done the Final Shape without the Traveler, but it wouldn’t have been perfect. And in order to make it easier it needed the Light. Does anyone else have any clue as to if this is true, or am I just delusional?

Looking at the other subreddits right now, I keep seeing the same things over and over again:

"Eramis deserves to die"

"Eido is an Idiot"

"Letting Eramis go is bad writing"

To paraphrase. I just have to know, what's up with this anger? I can understand that she did take sides with the Witness during the war and participated in the Deaths of Rasputin but, out of all of our villains from the past Destiny years, she's leagues bellow Savathun, Xivu Arath, even Calus. She didn't even participate in the final battle, she did a literal drifter and ran. Given the circumstances, what's up with people just wanting her dead?

I've been wondering this since we fought Nezarec all the way back in Roots of Nightmare. Why did the Witness trusted Nezarec so much? Based on the Witness's voiceline in Visitation, it was the one that gave the Veil to Nezarec in order to help Nezarec conquer the Psions. I just find it weird that it would give Nezarec something so important for its plan to achieve the Final Shape. Especially since the Witness seeks to end suffering, but Nezarec considers suffering as the very form that existence should take.

Are we just pretending that Warden of Nothing didn't happen? I admittedly haven't done too much of Tomb/Contest of Elders yet but I would have thought one of the first things they would have explained was how it came back after we killed it.

Are there just multiple Wardens? Unlikely, since Variks acts like it's just the one in some dialogue. Did someone repair it? Possibly, the only Servitor we know of that has come back from the "dead" was Kaliks Reborn who was rebuilt in the Prison by devout Wolves (and of course Sepiks Prime but that was through SIVA), but it seems like a leap in logic for inmates to rebuild the Warden and not have it favor them or something and then just have it go back to messing with them; maybe some of the Shanks in there rebuilt it possibly.

It's really weird since this season has a bunch of stuff coming back with seemingly no explanation. Why is the Modular Mind back? Why did the Prison of Elders keep Skolas' corpse on ice for 9 years? We can forgive Keksis and Sylok's returns since we know that Taken can come back after death, and Urrox being made a Hive Lightbearer is understandable (although his height being much shorter doesn't) but for a character like the Warden returning it's confusing.

It's a little frustrating as usually things like this are given explanations if not in the mission itself (explaining Bracus Zahn and Brakion's returns) it's in a lore tab or something and to my knowledge I haven't heard anyone talk about it.

Such a cute story

I've updated the timeline to cover everything through The Final Shape and made many, many revisions, including better formatting so it's a little more wieldy to search for things. This is the culmination of hundreds, if not thousands, of hours over years. I'm not really interested in the story beyond Final Shape, so this is probably it for me in terms of this project. I also hoped I'd get some help on it, but none was forthcoming.

I hope you enjoy.

Beginning through Destiny 1

Destiny 2 through Final Shape

I'm trying to find information about scientists and philosophers, besides warlocks. But obviously I'm looking in the wrong place. The description of all class items and weapons is either a story about how titans are strong, how hunters are mortality, or random stories from someone's life. But titans and hunters can think, it can't be that they are completely one-dimensional, and they don't have their own philosophies and views that they can give to other scientists. For example, the titans are engineers. And the hunters reflect on the unstable nature of the Traveler. I'd want to see how all three classes work together to solve a mystery, or come up with new ways to use their supers. After all, all three classes have different views, but together, they can become stronger. After all, warlocks taught hunters how do blink. But it feels like Bungie doesn't want to think about it. That's why in the same class descriptions from the Guardian Games, warlocks are arrogant and pompous flyers, titans are silent and sullen guys, and hunters throw knives at each other and laugh. Absolutely stereotypical. But at the same time, many hunter players don't like cloaks, warlocks don't like mantles, and titans don't like armor. Although these are important parts of their class cultural code. But I haven't seen anything about this in the lore either.

(This post is going to be long)

There was a speech by Micah-10 about the traveler's memories that sparked my interest, one of them was about what seems to be the first moments of the traveler's existence as he is now.

My theory is that both the gardener and the winnower are the same being, just from different perspectives, Osiris says in one of the missions in neomuna that both darkness and light could be one force, something that is proven to us by the prismatic we gained in the game.

The memory from the perspective of the traveler is initially anxious and excited, then he feels as if he carries a very heavy weight and is then separated, since then the traveler was a source of light who had a consciousness even if weak and the veil a source of darkness that had a body but could not move.

When the gardener entered the 'garden' he felt as if the entire weight of existence was upon him, it could be both physical (light) and memories (darkness), this caused him to separate into two distinct beings, the traveler with little consciousness, enough to do what he initially wanted, to make new probabilities grow, but without feeling the weight of the memories and feelings of beings and the veil, the point that connects all memory and consciousness, standing still to be just a mirror of what interacts with it.

Sorry if the post is too confusing, this is my first time posting a theory here.

Or, maybe more accuratley she is literally just Orion Pax.

Had this thought after watching the most recent batch of cutscenes.To recap, we find out that Fikrul's echo is the echo of a hopeful dirge from the great whirlwind. What's more, the echo seemingly finds Fikrul unworthy because of his dark plan for the Scorn and is seeking a worthy wielder.

This is strikingly similar to the matrix of leadership from transformers. This incredibly powerful artifact that acts as the embodiment of the soul of a people that is semi sentient. Before he is deemed worthy of wielding the matrix, Optimus isn't the gigachad we know him to be, hes a wimpy little librarian known as Orion Pax. Well, things happen and eventually Orion proves himself to be worthy of the matrix and is infused with its power, making him the defacto leader of his people.

What is selling me on this being a pretty good prediction of what will happen to Eido is that she is clearly being positioned as one of the few eliksni motivated solely with going forward rather than looking back. All the other main players for the throne are either explicitly taking themselves out of the running (Variks), batshit insane (Mithrax), or is space bin laden (Eramis).

What do you guys think?

Title.

So we know that the Echoes are memories of people the Witness destroyed or saw.

Could the next one potentially be Oryx?

One clue is just the Dreadnaught "peeling back". It's clearly reacting to something or someone, and Oryx would make sense.

Furthermore could it potentially be the Lightblade who gets the Echo? Xivu feels too predictable. Alak Hull would make perfect sense if it is Oryx as they were both rivals + Oryx would be really against the Hive guardian stuff