Hey guys, 4th year medical student here with a question regarding what you would do in my situation.

At present, fully funded EF, no debt other than student loans, plan to rent during residency.

My PSLF eligible government student loans will be roughly $250k at graduation at an average interest rate of 7% with $80k at 8% or higher. I am (given I match) entering a surgical specialty where residency and fellowship would be 6 years at PSLF eligible employers. Assuming SAVE is dead, interest will accrue on an IBR, and after 6 years my balance would be $316k after interest accumulation and prospective IBR payments. After 4 years of additional IBR payments at an average attending salary my balance would be about $175k at the time of PSLF eligibility. (All of this math is rough with several assumptions made)

I could see myself entering private practice or an academic role at a PSLF eligible employer, don't have my sights set on either.

Given the math I've done I've come to the conclusion that during residency, savings should be going towards retirement rather than paying down loans, as there is a reasonable chance for forgiveness, and every dollar paid that would have been forgiven is a dollar lost.

My question is, is there anything that I am missing here? Is this what you would do in my shoes? I understand that PSLF is long standing federal law, but should I consider its future uncertain?

Thank you in advance! And yes I understand that intentionally not paying debt with the plan to have it forgiven is a moral hazard.

I’m a psychiatrist in SoCal, considering moving to Texas due to the lower cost of living (and personal reasons).

I’m curious if any psychiatrists in Texas are on here and could share salary data? You can post here or PM me.

I’d like to see if salary is comparable or not, to help me figure out if moving would be worth it.

So far, I’ve seen much lower psychiatrist salaries in TX compared to CA.

Hi All. Older med student here, 35 y/o halfway through third year. My family (wife and 3 kids) have been renting for some time and unfortunately our landlord is selling the house. The timing stinks because we planned on buying a house wherever residency would be, but now that decision is getting pushed forward. We'd like to stay we are, which is our hometown, but with the match you never know. I"m not going for a "competitive" specialty, so I handicap that odds at 50% (shocker) that we stay in our city.

We have the money for a down payment and although at current interest rates we'd be squeezed a little for our mortage (rent is about $500 less than what our mortgage would be).

If you were in my situation, what would you do? Buy a house now to avoid an addidtional move, and also hope to start building equity and earn appreciation, or just go rent somewhere for a year and figure it all out next year when we have clarity on where residency will be? My gut is that the latter is the more responsible move, but part of me thinks that prices continue to go up and we have a few reasonably priced targets in our neighbhood that we could put offers in to buy. Things are a little slow right now and its seeming like somewhat a of a buyers market.

If we were to have to move for residency next year, renting the house out would be a negative cash flow situation and selling it of course comes with costs (although i am a licensed realtor and could avoid some fees)

Hi everyone, seeking some advice from experienced docs. I'm a first year MD super interested in CT surgery, but I keep hearing horror stories about the field dying out and significantly reduced volume. I really want to do this but I also want to be able to find work.

In your opinion, would it still be worthwhile to be a CT surgeon in 10/12 years (how long i'm expecting training to take)

Edit: ty guys all for your words and advice. Helped clear my mind

This seems to be the elephant in the room. Retire early? Sounds awesome. Pay for health insurance before you qualify for Medicare? Not as awesome. What options are available for getting health insurance if you retire early? (Assume that spouse does not have a plan that you could use.) Seems like this could be incredibly costly, especially if you still have kids who you have to insure. Basically, what options are available, or are there any options available that don’t cost tens of thousands of dollars a year?

Hey everyone! Anesthesia intern who is almost about 1/2 through first-year. Started getting notifications about loan about my deferral period ending and was wondering what is the path moving forward giving SAVE applications are no longer going through. I have about 350K in loans and wondering what are the next steps to start paying these things back. A few questions:

1. When I began to enroll for a repayment plan, it said that some of my loans are not eligible and I would need to consolidate. Is this the appropriate next step?

2. What are the actual options available which are income-based given I did not making anything as a medical student last year?

Hello everyone, I hope you're all doing well! I’ve been a member of this group for a while and wanted to ask for some advice. I completed my medical school training outside the US and started my USMLE journey about a year ago. I’ll be joining the 2025 Match cycle and, if all goes well, will begin residency in July 2026.

I took out a student loan from my school valued at $60,000. Interestingly, I have the same number of years I used this credit to pay it back—so I have six years to repay the loan. There’s no interest, but the value per credit increases each year, meaning the total credit amount I owe will grow a little bit each year.

Back in my second year of med school, I started a side gig, and since then, I’ve saved around $35,000 and have another $20,000 in stocks and stable cryptos. I was thinking of continuing to save as much as possible until I start residency, then using a large portion of my savings to pay down a sum of the loan. Do you think that would be a wise decision, or should I keep my savings and pay off the loan with my salary instead?

Thank you all in advance for your insights!

Current PGY 4. I have been able to max a Roth IRA and contribute to a Roth 401k offered by my program. I plan to do a rollover the 401k to IRA once done next year as well as start a backdoor Roth. I am somewhat confused about the timing.

For the back door Roth IRA, do I keep contributing through the end of next year and then start the backdoor once I start making attending money level contributions?

Also, is a rollover taxed?

Hi r/whitecoatinvestor,

I (28m) am in a bit of a career crisis and want to know if I am making the correct choice.

I started my DO school in August of this year but had massive doubts that started during orientation. With this, I took a leave of absence a month ago.

I was thinking about how difficult and long this journey would be; I came to conclude that it was not worth the struggle. There is the fear of debt and failing. There is also a big possibility of me ending up as an FM or IM doc. Looking at their lifestyles, FM and IM work long hours and are underpaid.

I learned about the CRNA route. The work ends once they clock out. CRNAs get paid almost the same as family physicians; however, CRNA's get paid OT, while physicians do not. This allows for huge earning potential. The only negative thing I found is the "respect." At this point in my life, I do not care too much about that.

Going the CRNA route would take approximately the same time as medical school to finish, but I feel like it will be MUCH easier (they only have to take a 3 hour board exam vs. what physicians have to take).

I just feel like the ROI and effort/profit ratio of CRNA schooling is superior to med school (this is assuming matching into FM/IM).

My plan:

At this point in my life, I am taking prerequisite courses to start a 12 month ABSN program. This will give me my RN. I will be starting it in May 2025 and ending April 2026. After that, I hope to work in the ICU for 1-2 years and then apply for CRNA school.

However, there is still this nagging voice that is telling me to go back to med school as it was hard work to get there. The option is still on the table as I am on a leave of absence.

May I have your thoughts?

Hi all,

I was looking for some advice on pursuing a career that would make the most financial sense. To keep it brief: I have always thought than an MD was for me, but living in Canada (where admissions are exceedingly difficult and it often takes applicants 3-4 cycles to get in), I was looking at other options. I do not come from a well-off family, but have possibilities for loan cosigners if I need them. My biggest goal is financial freedom, as I did not have that growing up. I am from Quebec - a place with notoriously cheap tuition (4k CAD per year).

My first option is to tough it out and apply for a few years in Canada. I could do a second undergraduate to increase my GPA or a Masters (which would only cost me around 4k in Quebec) to put all my eggs in one basket for a shot at McGill med. Like I said, it could take years just to get in. Family Med salaries in Quebec range around 200k, pre-overhead and tax. Medical school could cost anywhere between 10-60k, depending on the province I pursue it in.

My second option would be to pursue pharmacy school. In Canada, it could cost anywhere between 10k (QC) to 60k (other provinces) for living expenses and tuition. I plan to leave Canada and practice in the States, as I know that salaries and scope are a bit better there. My goal is to pursue hospital pharmacy. It might be worthwhile to mention that I have a close connection to someone working at a Top 3 Big Pharma firm, which could help open some doors. With the large amount of people saying this career will get taken over by AI, I'm not sure if it's a safe option. Hospital pharmacists in HCOL areas make close to 200k, from what I have gathered on Reddit and friends in the profession.

Finally, my last option is to consider going abroad for medicine. With this being the most expensive option by far, I am not sure if it is worth going over 500k CAD in debt for a career when my ultimate goal, aside from actively working in healthcare to advocate for minorities and underrepresented groups, is financial freedom. I would likely not have a lot of help with these loans, and while I do know that physicians in the States make a considerable amount (also worthwhile to note I have a few close family connections to the heads of hospitals in the USA and this might help secure a residency spot that is not FM), I am not sure if this would be shooting myself in the foot. I am not interested in surgical or procedural specialities - I prefer primary care. Like we all know... those are unfortunately on the lower end of the compensation scale.

I appreciate any help I can get. It's been a tough journey as a graduating student - I've never been lost on my career path before. Aside from looking at other options like an accelerated nursing degree to potentially become a CRNA, I am in a tough spot. Thank you so much in advance for any guidance you may have!

I graduated residency this year and have now been at my job for 4 months in coastal CA. I am a hospitalist and make 300k with good benefits. I unfortunately have 250k loans, currently in limbo with SAVE but I had planned to try for PSLF. Assuming everything continues to go well I will likely stay at my current job next year and even if I switch I would expect to make a similar salary elsewhere in the area. I am single and currently renting a 1 BR apartment for >3k and sick of renting but the median home price here is >1.5 million which is obviously not possible for me to afford. Would it be dumb to try to buy a condo? Could probably come up with ~100k downpayment by end of year depending on loan situation. A decent 2-3 BR condo near the coast is ~800-900k unfortunately and I feel like buying a condo is always more of a risk with less reward, but I can't see myself owning property otherwise unless I find another high income partner which probably won't happen that soon.

Hi everyone,

I’m a first-year medical student looking for some help creating a budget and some advice on what to do with my savings and (very small) amount of earned income.

I worked for a couple of years after college before I applied to medical school and had a low income but aggressive savings, so I've started med school with around ~$14,000 in the bank.

I put all of my that money into my brokerage account, where it’s currently sitting in the Vanguard Federal Money Market Fund (VMFXX). I live with my partner, who works full-time in a minimum-wage job, and we split our living expenses equally by contributing to our joint checking account and then paying expenses from that account. Right now, I’m paying my share of expenses by transferring money to the account out of my savings and when I run out of savings we will have to decide between me taking out a student loan or trying to live on just my partner's income which is less than $30,000 yearly.

Some important context: My medical school tuition is generously covered by my family, so I currently don’t have loans or debt. I’ve agreed to pay my family back if they need it for retirement, once I have a stable income.

I'm not sure what a reasonable budget goal is for a household of two. For reference, the cost of living estimate provided by my school's financial aid office is below:

• Housing: $1,050
• Food: $300
• Books, Course Materials, Supplies, and Equipment: $90
• Transportation: $95
• Misc.: $320
• Healthcare (including premiums): $1,100

In reality, our biggest current recurring monthly expenses include:

• Rent: $1,300
• Groceries: ~$400
• Utilities (propane, electric, etc.): ~$200
• Car insurance: $70
• Gas: ~$65
• Cat expenses (meds, food, litter): $65
• WiFi and phone bill: $60
• Laundromat: ~$45
• Health insurance (total for both of us): $92 per pay period
• Dental insurance (me): $3 per pay period
• HSA contribution (me): $117 per pay period
• Medication copays: $100

In addition, there are variable costs for things like household supplies, personal care items, occasional medical copays, gifts for family at the holidays, and car maintenance.

I work about 10 hours per week and make close to $21/hour. If I work more hours than I need to cover the bare minimum of my healthcare costs, I contribute whatever small amount is left over into the 403(b) Roth option in the retirement plan offered by my job, but I'm wondering whether it's better to stop contributing to retirement savings for now.

We're both in our mid-20's and have a combined total of approx $130,000 in our retirement accounts because I've been saving since I first started working as a teen even though I've never made very much per year. We drive used cars that have been fully paid off but may need major repairs at some point in the ominously near future given that they’re also 20+ years old.

I wouldn’t say that I’m particularly savvy with finances yet, and we’ve never really made a budget before. In the past our strategy has just been to have everything go directly into savings so the portion of the paycheck that goes into our checking account is an amount we can spend in entirety because money burns a hole in my pocket— I love to buy things so I’d rather just avoid the temptation by not having anything to spend! My partner is utterly disinterested in managing our budget or savings, and would rather to let me take care of it as long as we have a good quality of life in terms of living conditions and so on.

I’m not sure if leaving my ~$14,000 in VMFXX is the best choice, but since I need it in the short-term I don't want to put it in a stock market or bond ETF because it could lose value, so any suggestions on where to park this money would be really helpful.

Thanks so much in advance for any advice!

Any hope of Biden doing anything for students loans before transition of power?

Or is everything destined to be caught up in courts, congress, judiciary etc. ??

I am seriously not looking forward to the next 20 years if my entire PSLF-based life financial plan (I have 23 months left) is wiped out.

Ugh.

I’m one of the lucky ones who stayed on PAYE. Still a PGY2 so I have at least 100+ payments left to go.

Has the incoming admin explicitly said anything about undoing PAYE +/- PSLF? If so, what avenue of the political process will this be accomplished?

If they are undone, how strong is my (and others’ still on PAYE) case to still achieve loan forgiveness given we’ve been grandfathered in?

I am about to cross the 1 million dollar threshold in the total amount of my retirement, personal investments, and bank accounts. With this recent run of the stock market post election, I've really been able to see gains in a way I haven't seen when my accounts were less. At what point in your financial journey did you feel like your money was finally making real money?

I am a cardiac anesthesiologist who just started working a few months ago. I really like my job and am now willing to buy a house. Wanted to see people’s thoughts on getting a physician loan or a conventional loan. I have the money for a down payment but wanted to see what is the best option for me.

I have medical malpractice coverage but the idea of some greedy attorney going after me in the case of an adverse event haunts me. Most cases I read about involve the attorney settling within insurance liability limits...however does anyone have a personal story or know physician that lost personal assets/accounts to pay a medical malpractice judgement? I also live in Texas if anyone has state-specific info!

And will we actually be able to buy back the forbearance months in the future or not?

I have been receiving emails from WCI about MLG capital. Surprisingly I don't see any post here. What's your thought on MLG capital and their private fund? Thanks

Fund VI Investment Details:

• Timeframe: 10-12 years
• Target Returns: 11-15% IRR (net to investors)
• Distributions: Quarterly, starting immediately
• Asset Types: Multifamily, Industrial, and Retail
• Investment Strategy: Value-Add
• Minimum Investment: $50,000 cash, $100,000 IRA/401k

My husband and I bought a townhouse early this year.. 5/5 ARM at 7.02%.

I'll start residency next year, I would like to know what make more sense, to rent the townhouse (even if we still need to pay at least +$300 monthly for HOA, etc), selling the house or waiting 4 more years to interest rate adjust, instead of refinance.

We would like to start buying properties, and renting it out.

We are planning to rent for a few months or a year before buying another house where I end up matching.

I’m not interested in Mohs. How do I make the most money in this field? Open up as many cosmetic practices?

Currently deciding between Guardian, Standard, and Principal, which are all top/big 5 providers. Guardian is $265 more per month but I’ve heard in here it’s the top of the line and best regarded.

Does anyone have experience with any of these or have heard stories about any of these? Basically just want to make sure that if push came to shove they wouldn’t deny claims. We reviewed the plans with our agent and they’re basically all the same so trying to figure out how to decide between these three. This would be for a surgical sub speciality btw.

Thanks!

Now that Republicans control the Senate and presidency, is SAVE likely to never return?

Hi all- I’m a career changer starting a formal post-bacc premed program next spring which has a total cost of ~68k.

I worked corporate for a few yrs and have ~100k in savings (including my emergency fund). I have some money in a 401k, Roth IRA and brokerage accounts which I obviously don’t intend on touching.

My main question is should I drain my savings to pay for this post-bacc year or use some grad student loans (~20k)? I have no debt right now but I have 4 yrs of med school tuition to figure out after this.

Another question is that my program has some linkage programs where I may have the opportunity to start med school right after the program instead of taking an additional year to apply. I’m a CA resident and attending a UC/paying in-state tuition would be a dream but I know it’s incredibly competitive. If given the opportunity, would it be financially unwise to attend an out of state program without trying for UCs? Any opinions are welcome.

I’m very new to this community so please let me know if there is more info/context I should add :) Thank you!

We've written before about some of the reasons you should NOT retire early. The early retirement crowd savaged it a bit on Reddit, which was kind of funny given how much we advocate for financial independence (FI) on the WCI site. At any rate, we're arguing today from the other side. Today we're going to talk about why you should become financially independent as soon as possible. What does financial independence mean? It means you can quit work today and never work again, while sustaining a lifestyle that is reasonable to you. A rule of thumb is that you need 25 times what you are actually spending socked away in investments to be FI. Spending $120K a year or $10K a month? Then you need $3 Million to be FI. How do you get there? You make a bunch of money, save a huge chunk of it, and invest it wisely.

Without further ado-

10 Reasons to Become Financially Independent as Soon as Possible

#1 You can retire early

It's called work for a reason- they have to pay someone to do it or nobody would. This is the main reason people go for early financial independence- they hate their job.

#2 You can live somewhere that doesn't allow you to earn a living

Oil workers can make great money…if they live in Texas. But what if you want to live in say Southern Utah? Then you're either looking at a massive paycut or no job at all.  But if you're financially independent, then you can live anywhere you want, or even any country you want, or travel all over the place if you want. You're free of your job. A lucky few are able to do this throughout their career (think professional bloggers). Docs are able to get a job in most areas of the country (although the more specialized you are, the larger a city you have to live in), but there are lots of fields where you have significant geographic limits on your jobs.

#3 Your job is more enjoyable when you don't have to do it

Many of us actually like what we do for pay. We spent a decade or more learning how to do it, we find it challenging and interesting, and we feel like we're really making a difference in the lives of others. Want to know what you can do to enjoy it even more? Become financially independent. There's nothing worse than going in to work knowing the money you'll earn there has already been spent and there's no escape.

#4 EMR, HIPAA, meaningful use, preapprovals, managed care, EMTALA or whatever

Every job has a sucky aspect to it. For doctors, the regulatory and administrative aspects can be pretty painful. Guess what? Financial independence provides an escape. You can either walk away completely, or simply refuse to deal with whatever painful aspect of the job you don't like, no matter what the cost. Financial independence is “walking money” (i.e.you can walk away.) It doesn't matter if it takes you six months to get another job. It doesn't matter if you never get another job. You don't have to take that!

#5 Drop call, drop weekends, drop night shifts, or go part-time

Some of the worst parts about medicine come from its all-consuming 24/7/365 nature. People get sick at all hours of the day or night. However, that doesn't mean YOU have to take care of them at those times. In many instances, it is possible to buy your way out of having to stay up all night or be available all the time. Financial independence gives you the means to work when you want to work.

#6 Do Volunteer Work

There are many volunteer opportunities in medicine. Unfortunately, most of them require significant time and commitment. Doctors Without Borders, for instance, requires a 6 month commitment and provides a relatively tiny stipend ($1,913 a month currently.) You might not have to be financially independent to take on an opportunity like that, but you can't be making boat payments.

#7 Spend More Money

If you are financially independent, it doesn't necessarily mean you have money coming out of your ears. What it does mean, however, is that anything you earn in addition to your nest egg can be blown on the silliest of things. Still like that job? Fine, buy a Porsche. Or a cruise around the world. Or a fancy McMansion. Or pay off your mom's house. Or endow a scholarship. Whatever. There's something fun about being able to spend every dollar you earn guilt-free.

#8 Encore Career

Many of us dream of having an “encore career,” you know, the one that would have been stupid to do first because it pays like crap. Maybe you wanted to paint, or run a used bike coop, or in my case, drive big excavators. Now you have the opportunity to pursue any career you like without regard to the financial ramifications. You could even go back to college and get that art history degree your practical father talked you out of!

#9 No More Life and Disability Insurance Premiums

Sick of paying high premiums every month for insurance you'll probably never use? Financial independence allows you to quit paying those premiums since you no longer need the insurance.

#10 Make Hay While the Sun Shines

You may look back on this period of your life and realize that this was the golden era of medicine. In some specialties, pay decreases dramatically from time to time, and it could happen to you. If your income is halved in a few years due to factors beyond your control, you will be very glad that you saved like a madman now, whether it gets you to FI or not.

Are you trying to become financially independent as soon as possible?

First year resident with around 55k in loans. Consolidated to apply for SAVE in June but was not accepted due to the courts. Have been paying down interest for now with MOHELA. ~5.5% interest rate. Should I just refinance now and forget trying to keep the loans federal?

I'm a 38 year old pathologist (married with a stay at home spouse and one child) on a 3-year partnership track (fall 2027) and currently have a financial advisor (1.25% AUM. I know, I know...) who has been very helpful over the years. He manages a brokerage account and my IRA accounts (my traditional IRA likely should be rolled over to my current 401k to allow for backdoor Roth again) as well as provides a lot of financial advice on at least a quarterly basis but as needed. I've had a lot of financial questions over the years and he's been very helpful assisting us to think through things like IVF expenses, switching jobs and moving twice in one year.

However, now that I'm educating myself, my goal is to eventually fire him. With that goal in mind, I have opened my own separate brokerage account and I am investing 100% in VTSAX. I might add VTIAX and bonds at some point.

Current salary $300k (anticipated $10k raise over the next 2 years, partners ~ $650k)

Household expenses ~ $7-8k/month

Household current investments across retirement accounts and brokerage: $750k

$5k/year to 529 (child is 13 months old).

$4000/month to brokerage account

Disability, life and umbrella insurance

Debt: Home $430k at 6.75% (home value ~ $575k), Car $7.5k at 0%, 12 months to pay off (currently earning interest in HYSA instead of paying it off)

Maximizing 401k with employer match and profit sharing.

1. My advisor helped me to choose allocations for the 401k at my new job. With new education, I was reviewing it and it's currently set to 50% SWPPX, 20% VTIAX, 10% VIMAX, 10% VSMAX, 5% MTDXX, 5% VBTLX. The account offers VTSAX. Is it worth it to switch to 100% VTSAX or is the current allocation good enough?
2. Should I roll my traditional IRA to my current 401k? I haven't done a backdoor Roth since I rolled them over to be under my advisor's management because of the pro rate rule.
3. How to balance investing vs. paying down the mortgage? My plan was to contribute 50/50 monthly and any extra money like bonuses. If we pay an extra $1k per month, we could pay off the mortgage in 15 years.
4. How much is reasonable to keep in a HYSA? I've always hoarded money in savings and would like to redistribute it if that makes more sense. We currently have $252k in savings accounts (split over 2 accounts between my husband and me). Is 6 months expenses plenty? Invest the rest?

Thanks,

Stressed out physician mom hoping to create some flexibility in my career over the next 15 years

I’m going into peds. TY