Well, I told them. I did all the tricks yall told me to do about saying the spirit told me to and I prayed so much and read my patriarchal blessing yap yap yap and it’s almost like they set the house on fire. They still want me to live with them. They don’t agree that I want to go to college. I even brought up the idea of going to BYUI just to please them and they shot that down too.

I feel so attacked. This is the third conversation we’ve had like this since I came home in September and I feel so stepped on by everyone. I feel that I can’t have my own opinion and that anything I choose to do is invalidated instantly; cause it is. I had a complete mental breakdown last night and the only person that helped me through it was my amazing girlfriend.

I’m currently using one of my dad’s cars as mine and have been since 2021. I asked if I could buy it and he didn’t give me an answer. I just feel so alone, like I’m in a corner with no way to turn other than to just give in and go back on my mission. I DONT WANT TO. WHY IS THAT SUCH A BAD THING??? The entire first presidency and the one before all didn’t serve missions. Why should I if the dude mandating it didn’t? Yk? Am I wrong for saying that?

I remained calm throughout the entire thing. I never raised my voice and I stayed firm on “this is my decision”. I never said I was sorry, because I’m not. I’m making my first big decision for myself and it completely blows up in my face with screaming from my parents and my 3 other siblings. One of which doesn’t even want to talk to me right now (she only served a month in her mission).

It's a sneaky mechanism to get those who dare "speak evil of the Lord's anointed" to tattle on themselves.

I quietly resigned from “the choir” earlier this year. Since no one has seen me at church for several years because I was in Slc every Sunday doing the weekly broadcast, my stepping away from the church has been largely unnoticed and I haven’t felt ready to discuss it so I’ve left it that way.

But Christmas is upon us and folks are heading downtown for broadcasts and concerts and want to know where to look for me - so here and there I let them know I don’t sing with “the choir” anymore - and so far they don’t ask follow up questions - like “why haven’t we seen you in church then?”

The grief is still very raw. I’m not sure how to move forward. Should I send some kind of letter to my neighbors and friends or just let people wonder? Christmas without a choir is a huge loss in itself for me as choral singing is a source of joy connection and fulfillment in my life.

I’m sending love and solidarity to everyone navigating this tender space. If you decided to make an announcement or quietly slip away and want to share why you chose what you did and how it turned out for you I’d appreciate it.

Accidental misspelling just now- why haven’t I noticed this sooner? Freudian slip?

I keep seeing people saying mormonism is dying and that members are leaving in droves etc... after extensively looking into membership statistics, including sacrament attendance, cellphone data, self identification compared to real activity etc... my conclusion is that right now we're close to the peak of active membership, probably a few years away. In some parts of Europe and North America it is already falling quick, in the corridor it is showing cracks but still holding for some time, in some poor countries it is growing. I think many people here over estimate the influence of exmos on the church, the Mormon bubble is still going strong, and truth is fertility rates and housing prices have a greater influence on declining membership than this subreddit, despite all of the stuff that comes out. I also think some exmos have drank the koolaid and exxagerate greatly how much the church is falling, it is only the start of the snowball, it will get bigger though, but when i see people like Nemo the Mormon predict that the conference center will not be full i can't help but wonder if any of what he says is even reliable. The real shit will start in 10-15 years, buckle up.

I suspect this is a forum where I could get an honest answer or opinion. TBMS love to send the church and BYU. Im asking this for my own curiosity but would love any recent perspectives. My nephew is very smart academically and has decide to complete his bachelor's degree through BYU Pathways. This serves several purposes as the ability to achieve a bachelor's degree in a shorter time, the ability to work and study on your own schedule and of course cheaper tuition. He mentioned his plan and I didn't really have anything negative to say about it but a few red flags occurred to me. They recently announced a bachelors degree program with a little over 90 credits to achieve. The majority of bachelor degree programs are about 120 credits? The other concer that I have is there doesn't appear on the surface to have a structure set up with academic advisors. He mentioned that he communicates with mentors online and sometimes it's challenging to communicate because there first language isn't always English. I also question whether a Pathways Degree would still be accepted for the purpose of applying for post graduate studies. My nephew wants to get done with school quickly and get into the workforce. Also his desire is to reduce the amount of student loans to get through school. I may not have the full story on the Pathways Program but from what he has told me, I would be concerned as a parent. Are my concerns legit? I fear that when he finishes his education it may not meet his explanations.

To my parents,

I love you both deeply. I always have and I always will, and I know you both feel the same about me, however, the relationship we have needs a reboot.

I know, being your child, it might take some adapting to the fact I'm now a grown woman, but I am, and I need to be treated like one.

I respect your right to your faith, I no longer share your faith, but you set a boundary that I don't discuss Church History and contradictions with you. I don't have to agree with the boundary, I don't have to like it, but out of respect for you, I follow it and have never once deviated from it.

There are other boundaries you have that, whilst not specifically set out and discussed, would not be needlessly be breached. We all know the sort of things I mean.

For you to bring up my infertility with my partner the first time you met him was not only breaking all boundaries you could imagine, but obviously had the motive of either undermining my relationship or "checking him out". Neither of these are acceptable. This is a very personal matter and I should be in control of that information, but thankfully I believe in being open and honest in relationships, so it was discussed early on.

Although I had the sense to shut the conversation down, the responses that came to my mind, but I had enough self restraint to avoid saying out loud, would have shocked you.

It also made me realise how many times, although I'm sure you feel they were justified, I've been manipulated and undermined to bend to your idea of a "Perfect Mormon Family" over the years, from only being allowed my ears pierced if I commit to baptism, to if you live in my house you attend church and FHE. There is a reason I have my own place.

You don't get to choose my romantic partner. The irony is this would be much more of an issue in the LDS world where the main purpose of. marriage seems to be a big family.

Discussing whether he likes Italian food or prefers Chinese, or mentioning you are going to Hawaii next year and asking if he'd ever been would have been appropriate topics.

I hope we can discuss this in more detail, Lots of love, Robyn

I am starting to understand why Jesus left behind no writing of his own. He is a terrible writer. Consider his run-on sentences, awkward phrases, and self-interruptions in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. Jesus writes like a farm boy with limited education. Here are five tips:

1. Alma 13:1-9. This is apparently some kind of treatise on the premortal existence of humanity, although the text never says so. Instead, Jesus has his prophet mash random phrases together without saying anything coherent. One sentence within this jumbled mess is 211 words long. You know you’re in trouble when the author tells you to “cite your minds forward” to a time in the past. Huh? Writing tip for Jesus: Hire an editor. If you can’t afford one, use a friend or one of your wives. Read your writing aloud and have this person summarize the main points. If your editor struggles to grasp the content, this is an indication of bad writing.
2. Mosiah 15:1-9. This is Jesus’s big chance to clear up any confusion about his relationship to the Father. Instead, Jesus has his prophet muddy the waters further, so you know less about God at the end of the sermon than at the beginning. People can cite these verses to support trinitarianism, modalism, or whatever they want. Writing tip for Jesus: When presenting a complex topic, use simple and direct explanations as much as possible.
3. Jacob 5. Mormons pretend this chapter is profound. What they mean is profoundly boring. Jesus starts by having his prophet give an allegory of an olive tree. But halfway through, the narrator switches the metaphor to a vineyard. Writing tip for Jesus: Do not mix metaphors. Bonus tip: Shorter is better. If you can say something in 300 words instead of 3,733, your audience will appreciate it.
4. D&C 132. Here Jesus lays out his instructions for polygamy. Again, he botches it. Jesus has his prophet introduce concepts like “new and everlasting covenant” without defining them. Then Jesus rattles off a 152-word sentence that interrupts itself with a long parenthetical clause. Before the end, Jesus makes clear that Emma will be destroyed if she does not consent to all her husband’s relationships. Besides being horrifying, the discourse is convoluted and lacks organization. Writing tip for Jesus: Make an outline before you start dictating. Have topic sentences. Think about what you want to say before you say it. Don’t start a sentence unless you know how it will end.
5. Alma 11:1-19. Here Jesus has his prophet pause a story to lay out the Nephite coinage system. What Jesus fails to consider is that nobody cares about the Nephite coinage system, and it has almost nothing to do with the main narrative. Writing tip for Jesus: When you tell a story, have a point.

Earlier today my dad said something like “our genes which have evolved from our ancestors 200,000 years ago are still relatively unchanged besides a few gene mutations.” (I totally disagree)

But anyways. What does his history timeline look like?? Does he NOT believe in the 7,000 year mormon timeline??

A couple months ago I accidentally mentioned at the dinner table that humans have evolved over the course of hundreds of thousands of years. Everyone seemed to deny what I was saying, so I just shrugged and dropped it. It was only later that I realized I shouldn’t have said that, because it breaks their 7000 year Jesus timeline. (I’m still hiding as an exmormon.)

But anyways. What tf do they believe in?!

I guess I went too far. What say you?

In a mixed faith relationship. NC with my family of origin, but my TBM spouse is very close with her family- like enmeshed. We alternate holidays with whom we spend time with typically. Since going NC with my family we (she) have spent/are spending both extended holiday weekends with her family. They also want this Sunday (every second Sunday dinner). The topic of spending time with her family is already strained. I brought up- Isn’t Christmas and Thanksgiving enough? And she ‘set a boundary’ not to talk about it. ‘You’re the most critical person I know’. It stung- likely because it was an ugly truth. There is baggage with the family- e.g. her TBM dad joked to hire a hit man when we were on the rocks, and he typically is an austere and sincere man. (Outside of his character to joke about such things). <Bad visions of Laban>

To be fair- I’m a skeptical guy and fairly critical, so she has had to put up with it and is likely hypersensitive to my complaining since I do so much of it.

Over a year ago I got this Facebook message from an rm. I was freshly 18 and he was 25. The whole text was just so insane to me. We weren’t Facebook friends or anything lol

It’s hard to explain, but I feel like my view on the world has shifted since my shelf broke. I feel like the entire world is just not as beautiful as I once thought it was. I never felt like this when I was in the church and felt connected to everyone by the belief they were my brothers and sisters. I know I can’t just pretend that I believe fully in the church, but how can someone feel at peace knowing the world they live in is just kind of a bad place filled with people who you have no connection to whatsoever?

Does anybody know the source for the stock footage of mountains, ocean, landscapes and scenery from the temple video (circa 2018)? I always remember that was the best part of the whole video, seeing those amazing pictures in high definition that looked like something you'd find as a computer background. Now since the format changed to slideshow it seems everything is computer generated and low-quality.

Back in 2018 I was attending (LDSBC) currently Ensign college, it had just been changed over of leadership from President Richardson to President Kusch. During that year I had posted an article on Linkedin about why LDSBC should keep its entrepreneurial program. At once after posting the article the school church censorship department was ALL over the article with the President coming out and formerly discrediting it. This sounded an aweful lot like what happened to the CES letter. Furthermore I dealt with strong biases and prejudices in the school afterwards to the point that I formerly left a semester after. (It was hell after that article) I have always been a mild manner individual and nice to a fault but that intense persecution even got to me that there was something seriously wrong with the church and how it operates. Why would people be scared of the truth, if it’s true? Why are people so nasty and disrespectful if we are supposed to follow Christ Teaching?

This led me to almost completely leaving the church but old familiarity is powerful, it took another year of going to a family ward before I was just DONE with it ALL! I couldn’t find any answers besides cookie cutter Bullshit responses that the church approves. It also wouldn’t confront gaping problems like keeping church finances in the dark and its glaring backpedaling from the LGBTQ backlash from its Prop 8 political disaster and the 2019 reversal of LGBTQ kids not being allowed to baptized. Whats your thoughts?

I have these moments whenever I attend church where I try to find/guess who else is PIMO. Obviously for various reasons I can’t say to people openly as that’s a huge risk. I’ve successfully navigated thus far being known as the suspecting non fully believing husband who still attends and creates no problems. I’m sure I’ll be a project at some point. But I digress, Historically growing up it was relatively easy to find the individuals who weren’t “all in” based on how they dressed (non white shirt and or wearing something other than a suit/tie) but I’m finding that is changing amongst even staunch believers. I sometimes wish we had a code word where we could say something and let eachother know in an inconspicuous way. If there already is one, Let me know! Also would love to hear some ideas on some good ones. I’m sure that will be fun to hear what you all come up with.

*As to why I attend, it’s predominantly to keep the peace with my spouse/being patient with her growth (she’s not completely believing, but more susceptible I think to the cultural and very strong familial pressure). Kids are still young so I’m sure this will change as they age. 🤞

If you have heard of someone reaching a cash settlement WITHOUT a lawyer, I'd love to hear any details. Like what year (was it recent?) or how long it took. Perhaps how much. Although, I'm sure some info may be hearsay and I'll take everything with a grain of salt.

The last time I talked to my Stake President about my SA, he asked to speak with me regarding it (and the other victim(s) I know about) and asked if there was anything the church could do to help me as I heal. Now I realize he might have been nudging me to see if I wanted a settlement or some sort of financial compensation.

He knows I have paid thousands for therapy and medication at this point, and that my mental state has caused a lot of financial struggle. I can also tell that he/the church fears me going to the police.

I certainly could go to a lawyer, but I'm already burnt out as it is. I may still go to a lawyer, but I already spoke with one and I haven't been too happy with their consistency. Just thinking of my options here. State of California, btw - if that makes any difference.

These are church employees that are marketing to me without my explicit consent. I didn’t sign up for these communications and the only way to remove my consent is to remove my records, something I don’t intend on doing. How haven’t they been sued over this already?

My grandmas funeral is this week. While obviously sad, it’s also a very peaceful thing since she’s been mentally gone for years and that was rough.

I just finished reading her obituary, and there were so many references to being a “member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.” It even made references to when she joined the church, when she was “sealed” (instead of easily understood “married”), and so on.

While the church was a major part of her life, it was sad to see her obituary being used as an educational and missionary tool about Mormonism. I’m dreading even more her Mormon funeral, which I know will be just the same - and likely even more.

I know the mormon beliefs of my family offer them a lot of comfort, but am I being unrealistic wishing it could just be a time to share what she meant to us, instead of a time my parents will be making not-so-subtle gestures and comments hoping I’ll come back (and the rest of us “apostates” in the family)

Ok, so weird long story I'll keep as short as possible...

I have been learning about and researching LDS and FLDS for years and I haven't understood why. I have learned a lot about high demand religions and for some reason in my brain LDS takes the cake.

So fast forward to now - I have a dear friend who has kept their background a secret and it recently came out. I want to say something to them for comfort. I can tell there's anger, and disappointment (of course) and a whole lot of hurt and embarrassment too.

What can I say that will comfort and support them in a respectful way?

Thank you :)

I just found a quote from the early Church theologian Origen that states infant baptism originated from the apostles' teaching:

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

I understand that most people here are atheists and probably don't care about early Christianity, but I find this quote particularly damning to the truth claims of Mormonism, where infant baptism is considered a "solemn mockery before God." Could Origen have been mistaken or lying? Sure. But if I were to become a Christian, I’d be more inclined to trust Origen’s word over Joseph Smith’s.

Furthermore, both the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (which was not part of the Roman Empire, so Constantine can’t be blamed) and the Syro-Malabar Church in India (which traces its origins to the Apostle Thomas) still practice infant baptism. This is because early Christians understood baptism as a replacement for circumcision, which was also administered to infants.

Just some food for thought.

I’m hoping to get some insight on other peoples experiences with sealing cancellations after going inactive. My first marriage ended roughly 2 years ago and I decided to file for the sealing cancellation about 1 year post-divorce. I’ve been primarily inactive and the ex-wife had her records completely removed from the church. Things with us ended fairly amicably and she responded well when the bishop asked for her response to the cancellation. We both filled out our parts of the form and turned it in as fast as we could.

Fast forward roughly 1 year and have received zero updates as to the status of things, even after repeated questioning to the bishop and asking what else can be done. Oddly enough just last night I received a text from the bishop saying I could meet with the Stake President.

Is it normal for the process to take this long just to get to the Stake President or has something been messed up? Has anybody had a similar experience or can share some insight, recourse or what else to expect? I know it sounds silly since the ex has left the church and I’ve been primarily inactive, but I’d really like to put this in the rear view and break that final bond.

Black Mirror Mormonism –"Three for Thanksgiving" is an imaginary unmade thought experiment of the three nephites last thanksgiving dinner. It is imagined with a.i. to (episode sound Orgōne - Be Thankful for What You Got [William DeVaughn Cover - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbygM0kNo_A ] & & 'The Gods Must Be Crazy' - Song of the Sheperd

Melancholic Theme: "When eternity stretches on and hope fades, what remains to be thankful for?"

Characters: Three Immortal Brothers

1. Eli – The Wanderer. One of three immortal Nephites who has traversed the world countless times, witnessing the rise and fall of civilizations. His spirit is weary, burdened by the weight of endless years.
2. Micah – The Historian. The second of the three immortal nephites, dedicated to recording humanity's journey. Micah has amassed vast knowledge but struggles with the seeming futility of progress.
3. Zed – The Guardian. The third of three immortal nephites and protector of the innocent. Zed has spent millennia intervening in moments of crisis, yet questions the impact of his actions.

Prologue:

The episode opens with a montage of historical events—a tapestry of human triumphs and tragedies—all observed by the Three Nephites. As centuries pass, their hope for Jesus's return wanes. The soulful strains of "Be Thankful for What You Got" play softly, setting a tone of introspection and nostalgia.

Act I: The Invitation

• Setting: A quaint, rustic cabin nestled in a quiet forest, decorated modestly for Thanksgiving.
• Eli sends out a call to his long-separated brothers, Micah and Zed, inviting them to share a meal—a rare reunion after decades apart.
• As they arrive, there's a mix of warmth and tension. The weight of unspoken thoughts lingers in the air.

Act II: The Gathering

• The Nephites sit around a wooden table adorned with simple dishes: roasted vegetables, fresh bread, and a single lit candle.
• They exchange stories of their recent travels:
  • Eli speaks of remote villages untouched by modernity, where people find joy in simplicity.
  • Micah discusses the technological advancements and how history seems to repeat itself despite progress.
  • Zed reflects on conflicts he's witnessed, expressing frustration over humanity's unending strife.
• The conversation gradually shifts to deeper topics—their purpose, their doubts, and the silence they've felt from the divine.

Act III: The Elephant in the Room

• Micah hesitantly brings up the topic they've all avoided: "It's been over two millennia. Do you think... He's ever coming back?"
• A heavy silence fills the room.
• Eli sighs, "We've held on to hope for so long, but perhaps we need to face the possibility that Jesus is... gone."
• Zed clenches his fists, "We were promised. We've dedicated our existence to this purpose."
• They delve into a passionate debate:
  • Eli questions the point of their immortality if the promise remains unfulfilled.
  • Zed insists on unwavering faith, suggesting that doubt undermines their mission.
  • Micah plays the mediator, acknowledging both their frustrations and the need to reassess their roles.

Act IV: Reflections and Revelations

The Nephites reminisce about their time with Jesus, recalling His teachings of love, service, and gratitude, especially when he wasn't negligently murdering many of their innocent loved ones through powerful earthquakes. [Scene Sound: The Gods Must Be Crazy - Song of the Sheperd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xRY2swVpNM&list=PLQv_WRAsC6lhyX_6qD0al4oXkldds7UTH&index=2 ]

• Micah proposes that perhaps their understanding of the promise was incomplete. "Maybe His return isn't about a singular catastrophic disastrous event. Instead, maybe it is more about embodying His more positive less murderous teachings in the world."
• Eli nods, "We've been so focused on waiting that we've forgotten to live."
• Zed struggles with this idea, feeling it diminishes their original mission.

Act V: A New Perspective

• The song prompts a shift in their conversation.
• Eli suggests that instead of fixating on Jesus's return, they should find gratitude in their experiences and the good they've witnessed.
• They share what they're thankful for:
  • Eli is grateful for the beauty of the natural world and the kindness he's seen in people.
  • Micah appreciates the pursuit of knowledge and the resilience of the human spirit.
  • Zed, after some hesitation, admits he's thankful for the moments where his actions have made a difference, however small.
• They realize that their immortality has given them a unique perspective—to cherish the present rather than yearn for an uncertain future. They agree they want to live and hope Jesus never returns.

Act VI: Acceptance and Renewal

• The Nephites decide to redefine their purpose:
  • They will continue to guide and help humanity, not out of obligation, but out of genuine compassion and a desire to make the world better.
• Zed finds peace in this new approach, releasing the rigidity of his previous convictions.
• They toast to gratitude, clinking their glasses together.
• The atmosphere lightens as they share laughter and stories late into the night.

Epilogue: Moving Forward

• Montage: The Nephites part ways, each embarking on a new path:
  • Eli joins an environmental initiative, working to preserve natural habitats.
  • Micah becomes a mentor, teaching underprivileged youth and inspiring them to pursue their dreams.
  • Zed volunteers in conflict zones, focusing on peace-building efforts and reconciliation.
• Voiceover: As they engage with the world, their actions ripple outward, touching lives and fostering hope.
• The episode concludes with the three of them gazing at a sunrise from different parts of the world, a subtle smile on each face.
• **"Song of the Sheperd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Gods\_Must\_Be\_Crazy)"** swells, accompanying the final scenes and into the credits.

Themes and Concepts:

• Faith and Doubt: The Nephites grapple with their beliefs, exploring the tension between hope and reality.
• Purpose and Identity: They reassess what it means to be immortal and how they can find meaning beyond waiting.
• Gratitude: Emphasizing the importance of appreciating the present moment and the good that exists.
• Brotherhood and Connection: Their relationship evolves as they support each other through their doubts and decisions.

Visual and Narrative Style:

• Intimate Setting: The majority of the episode takes place in the cozy cabin, creating a focused environment for character development.
• Emotive Music Integration: "Be Thankful for What You Got" serves as a thematic anchor, its lyrics mirroring the Nephites' journey toward appreciation.
• Symbolism: The Thanksgiving meal symbolizes unity and gratitude, while the candle represents hope flickering but not extinguished.
• Subtle Cinematography: Close-up shots capture the Nephites' emotions, while warm lighting enhances the intimate atmosphere.

Final Notes:

This episode offers a contemplative exploration of faith, purpose, and the human condition through the lens of the Three Nephites. By placing them in a relatable setting—a Thanksgiving dinner—we humanize these immortal figures, allowing audiences to connect with their struggles and reflections.

The conversation about Jesus not returning serves as a catalyst for their personal growth, prompting them to find new meaning in their existence. The integration of "Be Thankful for What You Got" underscores the message that fulfillment comes from appreciating what we have rather than longing for what will never come.

The episode aims to inspire viewers to reflect and perhaps find gratitude in the present moment.

\"I shall not make my days of hands that had shown destruction to people to declare them abominations.\" Honestly perfect description of my feelings.