Im reading Doctor Strange runs in order of the Marvel comics timeline and I just finished the Lee/Ditko run and like the title says I am now on those issues.

Are they worth checking out or can I just jump straight into the Roy Thomas run now?

I want to be sure not to miss anything important for the character in there

The favoritism is real. 😄

The beard is everything.,

I hope he keeps it going forward. Lol

He was a walking ? in this film on top of being nerfed.

Hopefully, they finally update him in whatever he's in next. Lmao

Is it only me or MCU really tries their hardest to make Dr Strange, his lores, and his side characters(if we can call that beyond Wong) inferior in anyway when it comes to magic?

The Ancient One was reduced to someone who drew energy from dark dimension while witches casually have long span of life. I understand early MCU's tendency to explain everything through a scientific lens but her power up is only through using an energy from dark dimension. One of the biggest misses from the sequel is how they completely disregard the existence of magic patron like Vishanti and yet has no problem introducing the concept of Chthon and Darkhold and Scarlet Witch's prophecies, whatever it is.

Kamar Taj with all the magic books they possess is reduced to magic cannonballs (without even using their own magic) to fight an enemy.

Mirror Dimension even though covered thoroughly in a reflection is reduced to showcase Wanda's power who can get out from that using a reflection! Also to showcase Peter Parker's intelligence by pointing out to Stephen about geometric patterns even though Strange is being described to audiences as someone who's very intelligent and the first magic he learnt from TAO is mandala that consists of various geometric pattern and yet somehow he can't even recognize basic geometry.

Master Hamir, a master of mystic art's only showcase of magic is presenting a mandala to Stephen, being passive when novices get slaughtered, and then preparing a mirror dimension. Not to mention he's easily killed.

Sorcerer Supreme is reduced to a joke with Wong is only capable of using three spells at most(and despite in the comic right now, the only way Doom reaching a global dictatorship is having that title but that's another rant because Stephen is missing right now). Also how Sorcerer Supreme can't even handle a novice sorcerer in She Hulk. I disagree with Wong tried to set up a precedent because one of the duties of SS is to handle magic related problem and by using normal human's law i don't see the point of having Sorcerer Supreme in MCU.

Sling Ring. A thing that Doctor Strange doesn't need but he's limited to that relic to transport. Also gets retconned every time we see it to serve each movie it's in.

And then Doctor Strange as a character, phew, I could write another post solely for how MCU mistreated him since Endgame. Everything in 'his' sequel is basically getting retconned or undermined and the character barely has any personal struggle.

We only have a few appearances of Stephen left and I'm sure it'll be about multiverse. I just think it's a huge missed opportunity 😔

What do you think? Sorry for the rant.

Hey I just wanted to know if the Waid run was any good. I’m thinking about reading it but not sure if it’s worth it. Would love to hear some thoughts and opinions

I shared this in a conversation with another redditor a few days ago. As per their request, they thought it should be shared with the DS Reddit community.

So, here it is. It's lengthy so anyone who cares enough, enjoy the read. For those not invested enough, feel free to skip.

But copying & pasting my thoughts from tumblr, it's a rundown on my feelings regarding PalmerStrange and how MCU could salvage the Cleaphen pairing without it looking like the lesser ship, or treating Clea as a 3rd place consolation prize.

I wrote & shared it on tumblr months ago.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

This is how I see PalmerStrange from the first film to MoM - which I think can add depth & perspective Strange in the future, salvage Cleaphen, while also taking some of the cringe & shallowness out of the MoM version of PalmerStrange.

I said this in my PS post, but them shoving Christine down our throats so hard fucks everything up for Clea as a love interest. When 4/8 years of Strange's MCU time has been Christine-based with her getting this unearned spot as his "one true love", how are we meant to care about Clea coming into his life?

Clea ends up looking like a consolation prize because his actual love rejected him (in numerous universes). With that being the case, how are MCU fans (who are non-comic readers) supposed to truly invest in what was set-up to look like a rebound relationship because they wrote themselves into a corner trying to give Rachel McAdams more spotlight? Lol

That's like if the comics tried to paint Zelma as Strange's true love after we spend decades with Clea. That was a weird relationship by the way. Sometimes she was strictly a student & friend, other times it was written like they intended Strange's feelings as romantic. Lord knows...But either way, it's asinine. Imo you don't (or shouldn't) spend years gassing up a relationship knowing you have no intent of settling on it, then bringing in a new person randomly claiming that it was always meant to be them after numerous prior years depicting it as clearly being someone else.

I am saying the above because it seems clear in interviews from Waldron & McAdams, that they genuinely believe in PalmerStrange as a deep love pairing. Wth their pushing of it, it hurts Clea's romance with Strange in future projects by being brought in as "the lesser" ship.

However, the writing & execution in MoM was so bad, that I can NOT see PalmerStrange the way Waldron & McAdams were trying to sell it. And plus, of course the latter is gonna toot her own horn & hype the main character's feelings for her. Lmao

The first film didn't paint Christine being anywhere near as important to Strange as MoM tried to (badly) suggest.

Being bluntly honest, Strange never really paid much attention to Christine unless he wanted or needed something. I do believe he cared as much as he could at that time in his life when we first meet him, but it seemed more like she was a safety net. I'll expand a bit further down.

But first, lets look at the first non-business interaction between them. This interaction alone tells us everything.

Christine shares her policy against dating co-works which she named after Strange. Strange is glad something is named after him since nobody wants to call the technique he invented "The Strange technique."

Strange Technique

Christine corrects him in noting that **they** invited the technique, which includes her.

Correction

Note how Stange promptly rushes passed the part relating to her to talk about how he's speaking at a dinner he wants her to attend with him.

Dismissal and Invite

Christine is less than thrilled. Strange says they had fun when they'd go & she has to break it to him that she never had fun because everything is always about him.

Unimpressed

rejection

Dissed

This sets the tone right here. Strange is clearly attracted to Christine but he is not at all in-tune with her as a person. When they were dating, Christine went to those events for him - not because they were fun. And Strange was so detatched & disinterested in her emotionally, he couldn't fathum that she wasn't having any fun until she outright tells him. Not hard to see why she (we can safely assume) broke things off.

Lets also take notice of how Strange never does anything for Christine.

She bought him a very expensive & engraved watch.

https://preview.redd.it/qgdn8rhobuud1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=eb6bf9fdee461da6ec7b882d84fa0115f51e6dfd

She was the one person to visit with him in the hospital after his accident, and was clearly heartbroken seeing him hurt.

Support

She tried to take care of him after the accident - we see her giving him a shave when he's still hospitalized as well as bringing him food after he's out.

Friendly Shave

And while her timing was bad, she tried to get him to face the fact that his hands can not be fixed rather than torture himself on false hopes & putting himself in debt because of it.

Advice

Advice

But she also tris to encourage him to use the time to find new meaning in life.

Advice

She saved his life when he was stabbed.

Good as new

She tried to comfort him after The Ancient One's death.

Comfort

Lastly, she invited him to her wedding as a good friend.

Meanwhile we never see him doing anything for her. Her wedding in MoM was a chance for him to be supportive & encouraging on her new life chapter.

But rather than do that, his first instinct is to make her wedding about him - using her reception as the time & place to confess that he still has feelings for her.

Tackiness & Discomfort

Not only is this tacky asf, but it shows how little her happiness & best interests are to him when he makes her big day about him. Their relationship was 100% giving and / or sacrifice on Christine's end & nothing but taking on Strange's end. And that has not changed in MoM.

Imo opinion that cements that Strange doesn't love her because he doesn't care enough about her to ever put her first, show her consideration, or do even the smallest kindnesses for her.

Christine seems to be someone he could always count on to validate & support him whenever he needed / wanted because she was the only person to ever put up with him. For the longest, she may have been the only friend (and possibly lover) he ever had. Or maybe he had more but she was the only one who stuck around. However you slice it, the first film makes it clear, she's the only real friend he had prior to his journey. Nobody else cared about him beyond professional responsibility. And there's good reason for that. Lol

He's so obsessive in MoM, the only way I excuse & explain it is her wedding triggering him and bringing some insecuriies and traumas regarding loss & lonliness back to the surface.

Rather than truly loving her, he's just desperate to cling to the 1 person he's always had for the longest. Her marrying someone else cuts in on their relationship big time. But that clinginess has more to do with him trying to make himself happy & hold on to a comfort source rather than out of any truly deep love for her. 

Again, not saying he doesn't care about Christine - but rather his romantic feelings are not based around true love. It seems to be based around how she makes him feel more so than how he truly feels for her. A case of truly loving the person vs. their actions, i.e. "what they do or provide for you." He wants Christine for his own convenience - whether that's emotional comfort, validation, or a prop date for big events.

And even deep into MoM, this seemed to be the case because all of his interactions with Christine center on what he is feeling rather than him trying to truly connect with & understand her feelings. He's had some character development but when it comes to Christine, he still treats everything as being about him, marking very little change in their relationship since the hospital scene in the first film.

She's so compassionate to him, she's done nothing but sacrifice & give to him which he has now come to expect. When they link up, he's always looking for her to be his comfort, savior, & validation rather than his true love or partner. In response, she humors him & is more patient with him than most would be. But sadly she's inadvertently enabling his behavior.

The Memory Lane scene says it all. When he steps onto that pad, his most important memory is Christine giving him gifts. Nothing intimate like their first kiss or them having a truly emotional or connecting moment. Nope. Once again, it's Christine dgiving & him taking. So his most significent memory is getting gifts from his ex, and nothing else about her, or even the death of his little sister which apparently means nothing to him anymore. But that's a slightly separate topic. lol

Cleaphen & Perspective

Now that brings me to Cleaphen & new perspective for Strange. Unlike PalmStrange (lmao that name works on multiple levels), Cleaphen only got 30 sec. of screentime. Lmao So this is based around wishful thinking to build on the above. LMAO

For me, the way to salvage this upcoming ship is establish that his feelings for Christine were not as genuine as he may have thought at the time once he begins to experience & feel the real thing with Clea.

Now usually I am very much against sailing ships by bombing others. A good ship can sail on its own. The thing that makes this different was MCU writing things into a corner to show more Rachel. Derrickson used Christine to give Strange a personal teather to his old life that he'd have to give up at the film's end. He gave them their closure in the first film & was planning & excited to bring Clea in for MoM. But he left, so his vision was burnt to a crisp & replaced.

Disney wanted to do a "What If" episode about Christine, Waldron watched that and continued with giving Christine / Rachel a larger part than what they were supposed to have. Because of all this padding for McAdams, PalmerStrange got stretched way out, leading to non-comic MCU fans expecting a Ross x Rachel get-together after the supposed Will They / Won't They.

Marrying Christine off in MoM gave most people a WTF reaction because it feels anti-climactic to spend 4 years on a ship they made Strange obsessively lovesick over only to not follow through on sailing it. Then we didn't stop at the wedding, we got a variant Christine to tag along in MoM, leading folks to thinking our Strange would get with her. And that doesn't happen - even after his confession PalmerStrange fans expected to at least get a kiss there. Nope.

Now we have 4 years of wasted time on a dead & static romance while making it the center of our main character's existence only to introduce what was supposed to be his real true love in a rushed & half-assed fashion during the credits of his sequel-in-name-only.

So because of the mess Disney made with PalmerStrange, we gotta have some pull back if they truly care about selling Clea as a love interest to be cared about. And maybe they don't. We'll have to see. Lol

Imo PalmerStrange has been overstretched & has done no kind of favors to Strange as this tweet perfectly sums up. Lmao

https://preview.redd.it/yu7digm8duud1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=a0d52d25063c801178ea6c8f12ea625e0fe8e749

In addition to doing Strange a disservice, it also drags down Cleaphen. If she's gonna be his lover for the duration of his MCU tenure, then the mess they made with PalmerStrange needs to be cleaned up. But this assumes there's anyone besides Derrickson in the MCU who cares about Strange & Clea's characters.

Starting off, I think his ship with Clea needs to be a very slow burn across multiple films or shows whichever they are invloved in. But it needs to be spread out to provide real development & depth so it doesn't seem rushed & half-assed. Again. Lol PalmerStrange got 2 films and 2 "What If..." episodes. They could at least give Cleaphen 2 films - especially since that's the ship that's supposed to go somewhere. The romance will only ever be a subplot because there's always a bigger over-arching story that is more important.

The following is gonna be how I hink Cleaphen should be spread post-MoM. Lord knows all the MCU projects and films to come. So I am just gonna number things

Film 1 (their very next major appearance) May be Dommsday at this point.

We need to see them as comrades first. Show them working well together as a good team. Good battle chemistry can definitely be a factor in bonding them during early stages. It would lay the groundwork of mutual respect between 2 mystic fighters & sorcerers.

After developing mutual respect for one another as comrades, slowly work toward connecting more personally which leads to a friendship. That connection could be in conversation about her family. Perhaps Clea fully introduces herself to Strange revealing the extent of who she is to him - a key thing being that she's Dormammu's niece. We can hear about her family and the emotional conflct she faces coming from such a family whom she once supported.

This would help turn the tables. We'd get someone is sharing their sob story with Strange and he's getting a chance to be the ear to listen and provide comfort to Clea in similar fashion to what he had to do for America. This would already differentiate the relationship from Christine because he'd be required put forth emotional effort in the developmental stages. Unlike Christine, Clea comes with her own regrets and dark history. She's not the Mary Sue with no hardships or wrong-doings. So while Clea can be a source of support for Stephen, he has to be there for her issues as well.

With Clea having her own very clear demons & a VERY dangerous family, Strange would not have the chance to make everything all about him & become complacent in that. If he wants her, he's gonna have to make effort insuring she is emotionally supported & fulfilled as well.

Again, we can't linger on this subplot too long because the film would have a bigger story to be told - but we have nicely continued the ship voyage - showing how they mesh as comrades since the end of MoM, and now moving into friendship in this film. This film this is should focus a bit more on Clea with Strange being a supporting factor to her since she is a major new addition to Marvel & Strange lore. We can be learning about her & building a connection simultaneously with Strange. I hate to say that after Strange played 3rd fiddle in MoM, but even with focusing on Clea, it wouldn't hurt Strange's character as bad as MoM because we are developing a character who is going to be very big & influential in his life. So end the subplot here for this film. Whatever it may be. Lol

Next Film (2)

Next film, shift back to Strange focus. Having clearly become fond of him, have Clea inquires about Strange - his life, family, and if he has a special someone back home. He can give a brief recap of his journey from his first film. After that, he can answer that he had a special someone years ago but it ended because he wasn't the best person at the time.

That is actually similar to the comics. Strange was engaged to a woman named Madeleine St. Germaine, a patient he treated & fell for. As his attittude got worse & more materialistic, she left him. So this can be the scene we get him talking about Christine & the real reason it ended (because everything was about him - not the BS holding the knife bit that they made up for that film). With a bit of romantic interest having seeped through, Clea asks if he still has feelings for Christine based on how fondly he's still speaking of her.

With that question, we can get some perspective and admittance from Strange - that he still cares for Christine as a very good friend but his romantic interest has passed. Why? He now realizes that he mostly loved as a source of comfort & validation rather than as a true lover.

With that question, we can get some perspective and admittance from Strange - that he still cares for Christine as a very good friend but his romantic interest has passed. Why? He now realizes that he mostly loved as a source of comfort & validation rather than as a true lover.

That would be a moment of realization that shows growth & self-reflection. Strange seemed totally ooc during the MoM Christine subplot but the above would give a legit & believable reason for his obsessive lovesick behavior. it would make it seem like a needed transition to prepare him for the relationship to come and help him truly recognize the difference between limerence vs. love now that he is learning to develop relationships and friendships outside of the 1 person he was putting all his humanity & happiness on - all his eggs in 1 basket so to speak. Baskets can be overloaded and break. Christine can't be responsible for a clingy partner using her for their emotional needs while providing nothing in return for her. Again, a very one-sided relationship. With perspective, Strange will see just what kind of effort & devotion true love can pull out of a person.

Now we have to keep the movie going. Because again, this is only a subplot. We have to move back to the bigger story. Imo this is a good place to leave Cleaphen until their next appearance. The seeds of romance have been planted with Strange & Clea being closer as comrades & having connected a bit on a friendship level. We also have both characters established to each other as single. lol

Next Film (3)

Finally, move them into official lovers territory here. How to push it over the edge? We gotta have Strange make that final leap and allow himself to be 100% raw with Clea on an emotional level. We've now had 2 films building an intimacy as comrades & friends, so it wouldn't be unrealisticly rushed for him to be at the point of opening up on the deepest level - especially having mutually developed feelings for her over the course of the previous 2 films.

Clea has learned about Strange's life-changing journey and his history with Christine which he has gained more logical & less emotional perspective on. From here, we have a solid base set for moving the relationship to its final stage. Maybe now is the time to get that big moment we've had put off for 2 solo DS films. Strange has shared his journey into soercery & prior love life with Clea, but what about his family? I don't think it'd be an instantaneous. I could see Clea asking him about it and him brushing it off early on before he finally allows himself to open up to her fully.

And THIS story could finally be the moment we expand on Donna and see the trauma that resides there. But rather than skipping right passed it, show some actual flashbacks this time. Maybe use this story to bring up his brother, Victor and the guilt of also feeling like he failed him. This would also track with his comment to Christine about how he is afraid of being genuinely close to others because he gets scared.

When he finally caves & reveals his family history to Clea, let this be a true scene where we finally see the weight of Stephen letting all this out to someone after so long and then let Clea get the chance to comfort him on his family as he did for her when he revealed her own family drama & issues. Being such a stage ready actor who truly gets into his roles, Cumberbatch would KILL a scene like this. We'd get the chance to see Strange in a very different light, at his most vulnerable, and it's a side he's only revealing to Clea (his future wife). He can start truly opening his heart with her, and continue from there to where Comics Strange made it 30+ years ago. lmao

Doctor Strange 3?

Only question, where does DS3 fit into this. Above I gave bullet points for how Cleaphen can develop organically over the course of 3 film subplots. It's still a bit rushed but there's only so much time per film and gotta face facs this isn't a Soap Opera with season upon season to devote to story lines. Getting back to the 3 mystery films, which of those is DS3 and should any of them be?

Rumor is that DS3 is being fast-tracked due to the success of MoM as well as Marvel wanting to get it out before Secret Wars. This is concerning because rushed work is usually never good. Another rumor is that it will adapt Time Runs Out from the comics and be another segue into a big event.

If those 2 things are true, then a romantic subplot probaly won't have much time for real devotion. Strange already had to take a backseat in DS2, and we stiill have Clea to properly introduce. So DS3 does NOT need to take place directly after MoM. Their next appearance needs to start planting seeds for their relationship as well as devote real time to establishing Clea. DS3 is not the place to do the latter because Strange doesn't need to play second-fiddle in 2/3 of his solo films. So that definitely crosses off Film 1 as DS3 possibilities.

Realistically DS3 could be Film 2 or Film 3. But since there is a high chance of it being event-based, I don't see a romance subplot getting handled in a way that is meaningful & satisfactory which leads me to think that all these films need to be appearances & plots that take place before DS3. If it went that way, then we can come into DS3 with Clea & Cleaphen already established - without major character moments & developments rushed in favor of making sure the event threads all get included.

Thing is, DS3 is again being fast-tracked. So unless SW isn't coming out until 2034, I doubt we'll get 3 films prior with Strange & Clea. So DS3 would have to fall in F2 or F3 to have a chance at still working with Clea & Cleaphen in a satisfying way.

I lean toward Film 2 because the suggested subplot events are depthful but wouldn't need to use too many scenes. So we can get the proper focus on that while still keeping pace for the event(s). But on the other side of the argument, what film other than his own could Strange's family and trauma truly be addressed? In a team film like Avengers, he'd already have his screentime divided among 10 other characters.

Would they do a team film that gave him the major subplot that his family trauma would need? I doubt it. So either Film 3 would be DS3. Or Cleaphen & Strange get to a certain point, pause for a bit, then finish up the development in a DS4. Lol Possible, but I never entertained the idea Strange would get a 4th film. I am not against it, but just never saw it as something that would happen.

Best Option

The best option would be to give Strange a mini series. I don't care if it's animated or live action, but his character could use it. Then we could get a lot of depth & development that the films robbed him of, develop his romance with Clea, and be in a good spot to use his remaining films as tie-ins because his development was handled in a tv series and the films can be more business oriented without shafteing the character(s) arc(s) entirely.

Outro

With all that (or similar) being done, we have a ship that has slowly built from comrades to romantic interests with mutual support & investment - much more stable than the last ship Strange was on. We can still accept that Christine is an important loved one in his life while adding a deeper layer to it - acknowledging things like emotional co-dependency instead of accepting bad writing where intended love just looks like limerence with the titular character not being mentally mature enough to know the difference. lol

With a build like this for Cleaphen and an added perspective on PalmStrange being misguided on Strange's end, we can create a ship that looks adult and deep. We can buy why Clea x Strange are good together and what they see in each other. We can have real investment with real character depth & growth - turning the negatives of MoM into positives and still making future plot points work.

Or have Christine & Charles divorce, with the forner coming back for Strange, only for him to reject her because he's in love with Clea. 🤣🤣🤣 They did it with Gwen & Spider-Man, who rejected her for MJ. But I know this won't happen. So lets get back to seriousness. Lmao

With the previous mentioned time & build, MCU Cleaphen looks like a legit ship where Strange truly is with the love of his life (like Waldron said she was suppoed to be) versus looking like a rebound he would instantly dump for Christine if she ever came back.

But again, all wishful thinking to lessen my MoM hate and still be able to enjoy the idea of Cleaphen in the MCU.

I doubt we will get anything close to deep in any future films they share. 9/10 when we finally see them again, they will already be married with the entirety of their relationship progression having happened off-screen.

Doctor Strange Vs. Cosmo and Wanda (‘The Fairly OddParents’). Who wins?

Assuming Cosmo and Wanda without having a child wish for them.