Use this thread to ask general questions that apply to you more than to the region.

For example, what music you like that is acceptable, what quirks or behaviours you have that are seen as offensive, if your music would be appreciated.

Hi !

I come humbly to you guys. I did somehow end up listening to a song that is in the Karbadian Language (Thank you, chatGPT), however, I (obviously) don't understand a single world. It even took me a while to actually find the song on spotify !

So I was wondering if someone could kindly tell me what the song is about, because I fell in love with it. It made me want to travel and to actually meet Circassian people !

Here's the link to the song :
https://open.spotify.com/track/0WD1ROG4eNyRHDAsTf5AlB?si=387b47912c344274

YT : https://youtu.be/zpR9UltBzh0?si=6QPXctbEOND5Dd2c

Thank you 🥹

Does anyone have knowledge or sources on haplogroups in the Caucasus?

Does anyone have sources or books on this? Are Georgians for example Haplogroup G? I would be especially interested in North Caucasian Haplogroups.

For starters, Georgians, we have no negative feelings towards you whatsoever. In fact we actually like you. But whenever a conversation starts regarding who the Laz should identify as I feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall over and over.

We are Kartvellan. We are your long lost brothers. Most Laz would agree to that fact. But we draw the line at being called Georgians. We are not Georgian. To you, there may be no difference between what is a Georgian and what is Kartvelian. Because Georgia represents the state of all Kartvelian people. But we see Georgia as a nationality. Something you can choose to identify as. And we choose to be Turkish as that's our nationality. If I wanted to identify as Georgian, I could. I'm not going to be abducted in the middle of the night by the Turkish Gestapo for separatism if I did. Stop claiming we are brainwashed or that we've been Turkified into staunchly identifying as Turks. It reeks of elitist exceptionalism and, as we are belittled so much, it makes me feel like in your eyes we are just some form of pity case that needs saving. "Oh you poor Laz. There there. We'll liberate you from those barbaric Turks".

Our cultural identity is still very strong in Turkey. "Turkification" is such a nonsense and bigoted term that it infuriates me. Because the culture in turkey differs from province to province. Answer this for me. Are you seriously telling me that there are no differences between Tbilisi and Batumi? None at all? That would be absurd. Now think about us Laz who either live in the mountains or on the coast of the Black Sea in small communities and compare us to an Anatolian Turk living in a metropolis like Denizli, Istanbul, Ankara or Izmir. They are very different to us (and to each other). There is no single Turkish culture for us to be assimilated into. So stop it with that nonsense.

But what really annoys me is, whenever a discussion regarding Laz comes up, why is it the Georgians telling people who we are? Why shouldn't it be the Laz themselves who get to tell our story? And why is it when a Laz does talk about it, do Georgians think it's appropriate to challenge and belittle us acting as if they know us better than ourselves? It would be like someone posts a question “what does it mean to be a Crimean Tartar? who are they? What is culturally important to them?” And Russians and Ukrainians both give their opinions about who they are, why they are either Russian and Ukrainian and tell any actual Tartar who answers honestly that they are a brainwashed Russified or Ukrainianified moron.

It's not just Georgians. We get the same treatment from Armenians and Kurds too for varying reasons. But with Georgians it just feels more personal. Chris Hann in 1993 wrote in the Independent: “They do not deserve to be treated as children, or seen as brainwashed by Turkish propaganda. Most Lazi are vociferous in their condemnation of Kurdish separatism. They would like to feel that they can value their own culture, particularly their language, and be fully Turkish”.

Can we please just be respectful towards each other, is all I’m asking.

I asked this question a few days ago and many claimed that they have georgian heritage. If its so then idg why there is no cultural exchange between each other or at least curiousity in form of much tourism. Cities like Rize or Artvin are basically next to georgia ? Or is it mutual a disinterest from both sides since there is no connection anymore ? The religious differences shouldnt be a argument for it since albanians for example define themselves not over religion and kurds are like turks sunni muslims mainly but have a strong national consciousness ?

In a document where the Chovelidze family sold the abandoned Dzaganidze estate to the Machabeli family it is written:

Note: The Dzaganidze are a former noble family mentioned by Vakhushti that no longer exist

"ამოსწყდა ზემო ჯავა და დაუკაცურდა ოსთაგან. ღმერთი იყოს მოწმე, ასერე ამოსწყდა რომ კაცის ნაშენები აღარა იყო. მოგყიდე ზემო ჯავას ძაგანიძის მამული მისთა სასაფლაოთა, სახნავითა, სათიბითა, წყლითა, საწისქუილოთა… ძაგანიძე, მისი მემკვიდრე, დაკარგული იყო და ფასი იმისიც ავიღეთ… ასეთს დროს მოგყიდეთ, რომე ორგან სამგან დედამ შვილი შეჭამა, კაცმა ცოლი გაყიდის და თავად დარჩის. ჩვენ თვით ასრე დაგვემართა რომე ათის სულის ჯალაბისგან ხუთის მეტი აღარ მორჩა"

English Translation:

Upper Java was destroyed and depopulated by the Ossetians. God be my witness, it was so destroyed that no trace of human settlement remained. I am selling you the Dzaganidze estate in Upper Java with its cemeteries, plowlands, hayfields, water sources, mill sites... Dzaganidze and his heir were lost, and we took payment for that too... We sold it to you at such a time when in two or three places mothers ate their children, when a man would sell his wife to survive himself. This very thing happened to us - out of a family of ten souls, no more than five survived.

Gagloti's interpretation:

"Большой урон густонаселенным горным ущельям причиняли многочисленные эпидемии и неурожаи. Как свидетельствует купчая первой половины XVII в., в это время вся Верхняя Джава «обезлюдела от осетин» из-за голода."

English Translation:

Numerous epidemics and crop failures caused great damage to the densely populated mountain gorges. According to a deed of sale from the first half of the 17th century, during this time all of Upper Java 'was depopulated of Ossetians' due to famine

How can this text be interpreted that the Ossetian died of famine or rather the area was depopulated by Ossetians, by their raids.

I thought that they were actually georgian but some told me that they have no connection with georgian people and have also a different phenotype ?

https://preview.redd.it/kka993633efe1.png?width=1708&format=png&auto=webp&s=4b2cea7917ba33717033dc397cf44170884841a6

Hi. I'm Turkish/Circassian from Turkey and i'm curious about a few (Circassian?) names on my ancestry document. My father's, great-great-grandmother was called "Maç"? and her parents were called Megan & Fatmet. How accurate are these names? Is it possible that the government worker at that time misspelled their name when they were registered?

https://preview.redd.it/kka993633efe1.png?width=1708&format=png&auto=webp&s=4b2cea7917ba33717033dc397cf44170884841a6

Hi. I'm Turkish/Circassian from Turkey and i'm curious about a few (Circassian?) names on my ancestry document. My father's, great-great-grandmother was called "Maç"? and her parents were called Megan & Fatmet. How accurate are these names? Is it possible that the government worker at that time misspelled their name when they were registered?

Georgians simp for Adriano Celentano. They simp for toto cutugno. They both suck.

They simp for french actors like Belmondo.

They simp for charlie chaplin

Where does this obsession with french and italian culture come from?

Also why do they like heavy metal so much? Why is deep purple, pink floyd and led zeppelin so popular

If I am not mistaken, Kabardians are a tribe of the Circassians, right? And Adyghe is what the Circassians call themselves? Online, it says different things.

The events of Abkhazia and destruction of Armenian Churches in Tbilisi are attributed to him.

It seems Azeri wikipedia pages claim they're all Albanian churches, the Azeri historians attest to this. Strangely Western and Armenian academia clearly state these are Armenian inscriptions.

But are there a handful of churches that have confirmed Albanian inscriptions? Or is this a complete propaganda campaign?

Quote from the book

"an ethnic Ossetian, senior political analyst for the government of his native republic of North Ossetia. Does this background point to a certain bias? No less than in any of us."

The main issue comes when you read his sections on Abkhazia, Ossetia and Georgia. It is clear he speaks of Georgians with contempt and in a sarcastic manner. While when speaking of Abkhazians and Ossetians, it is in a serious manner. He is very opinionated.

For example he says Georgia's claims on Abkhazia are "unjustified" this is him giving his own personal opinion.

He tries to distance Georgians away from Colchis. Calling this a "Georgian Nationalist narrative", while he calls the Abkhazian version the "Abkhazian historical narrative"

When describing the events leading up to the 2008 war, he still blames Georgians and writes about Russia as a benevolent power in the region.

In the book "აფხაზეთი და სოჭი კონფლიქტის ფესვები (Abkhazia and the Roots of the Sochi Conflict) 1918-1921" by Andrew Andersen he directly challenges Arthur Tsutsiev's claims. Saying one of his statements were unfounded and made with unclear reasons.

It is never fully explained what exact sources he used for his maps.

Another strange claim made in his book that the Alans/Ossetians had been living in South Ossetia since the 6th century.

Thoughts?

The oldest surviving Armenian and Georgian church structures were built around the 480s AD. All the previous churches that were built according to Georgian and Armenian sources are based entirely on traditional accounts or the claim is made that the place where the church is located, another church was built there previously.

So it cannot truly be said who built churches first or who adopted Christianity first.

The oldest manuscript mentioning Mashtots inventing the Georgian Script in 405 AD is actually from a manuscript from the 17th century. So, using a 17th century manuscript to prove that Armenians invented something in 405 AD seems ludicrous to me. It doesn't help that the oldest surviving inscriptions in Israel are also Georgian and predate the Armenian ones. This is the same case for Georgia proper.

But I guess the Armenians could claim that their inscriptions were destroyed.

So in my opinion. From the information we have available it cannot be proven which nation made their alphabet first and which nation adopted christianity and started building churches first. Naturally in my opinion Georgians and Armenians will point to themselves as a matter of national pride.

What do you think?

What about its people?

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I do realize how distinct the Caucasus is from the Middle East. Yet in many ways the Caucasus and Middle East seem intertwined and there is considerable interaction between them. So I had gotten to wondering what those from Caucasus feel about the Middle East in its current form.

If you can change one aspect of the Middle East, whether it be changes in how the majority of countries are run, making it so certain nations no longer existed or changing something about the culture or other aspects, what would it be? If you had full power to change just one thing about the Mid East, what would it be?

Or would Russia immediately invade or make new claims. Like Trialeti is Ossetia