Yesterday u/wildcardSC proposed a set of changes to zerg, it was not very well received. I'd like to talk about the "morph drone into creep tumor" a bit more.

Hear me out! Hear me out! Don't kill me yet! xD

I agree that killing a drone for a creep tumor is a huge investment, especially early on. If the creep tumor is the same as it is now, it would be unacceptable. But what if creep tumors get some buffs in exchange? I was changing about these two:

• Creep tumors can be built anywhere on the map (requirement of building on creep removed)
• Tumors that spawn another creep tumor become "inactive" but after a timeout (exact time TBD - probably something long like 1minute) they become active again - they can spawn another creep tumor.

So zerg would be able to build 3 structures out of creep: hatcheries, extractors and creep tumors.

It would cost some resources initially, yes, but I think along with these other changes, especially the first one, a bunch of possibilities open up that are worth discussing. For instance:

• Your initial creep grows faster. Instead of using the "creep radius", like we are doing now, you could move a drone outside the creep and use the "diameter" for that first creep tumor.

• You can choose to sacrifice, say, 2 drones early on in order to get great creep spread later (move them to the 2 unoccupied corners of the map, start creep towards the center. Or move them near the center, and creep up and down.

• You can do the equivalent of a canon rush with a creep tumor and a couple spines, instead of having to build a hatchery first. Reminder that creep tumors are less limited than hatcheries in where they can be built (e.g. you can build them in ramps)

• Which is another (minor, I think) advantage. You could block a ramp in a pinch with a couple drones for a few seconds.

• Drones caught in the open by a reaper could start a defensive morph anywhere. No need to look for a gas geiser any more.

• (my favorite one) you could send a drone early and block the enemy's natural with a creep tumor. They would have to spend one of their precious revelations / scans in order to clean it up. This one would probably make it a bit broken perhaps.

I probably missed a bunch of other opportunities. I really like that it would move some functions from the queen to the drone, which is the worker with least versatility of the 3 races in my opinion.

I'm done with my arguments. You can roast this gold player now :D

Is it just me or when the ladder resets does the game get way harder. Low d3 player, just getting crushed lately by everyone lol

I’ve recently just started getting back into the game and tried to give a comp a go. 3 out of my 5 placement matches I got zergling rushed tho, and I can’t seem to find a good counter without sacrificing my early economy by going straight for pools and zergling spam

Here is a link to images of the new maps: El Dorado is the second one (bilateral symmetry, hard to miss).

https://x.com/GGemini19/status/1848426725904113860

Disclaimer: only D3, take my analysis with a grain of salt.

El Dorado has a blocked-off area in the south with two regular bases, a gold base, and a xel'naga tower. All accesses are blocked by minerals--thin blue mineral walls on the ends and center, or a gold mineral line (gold base is initially disabled by a few blue minerals). The center blue mineral wall also has a sight-blocker sitting on it. (That xel'naga has major tactical implications because of this.)

There are 6.5 regular and 1.5 partial gold bases per player.

It reminds me of Blackburn. There is a straight air attack path from one main to the other, over the blocked-off area the entire way. I believe that if you hug the south map edge you may avoid the xel'naga, though I am not positive of this.

You have four choices as your third: a standard line third, a central third, a third in the block-off once the mineral wall is pierced, or the gold base once a mineral block is removed. As on Dynasty and Amygdala, that gold base's back side is vulnerable, in this case to forces inside the block-off. However this one is much more readily defended once the mineral wall from your nat is down--you'd probably take the block-off blue next to it and defend both the blue and the back of the gold with one force.

That mineral wall has to go down early. Once it does...I don't hate this, actually. I had a perverse fondness for Blackburn and this is quite Blackburn-like. On Blackburn often no one ever took the blocked-off south base, but on this map I think that area will become a sharp battlefield early on, because there are so many bases in it. A more recent map with some of the same qualities is Amphion.

The three center bases, outside the blockoff, look extremely hard to hold as their mineral lines can be shelled from high ground behind them.

It's a very odd map and looks very tactical to me. Custom builds probably needed here. One might take the block-off blue and then long-distance mine the gold from the back--they're pretty close together. I do not think ignoring the block-off will ever be viable, especially against an opponent with air.

I've done one practice ZvT and failed to hold the gold "third" against high ground attacks--like the outer gold of Post-Youth. But my ZvT is spectacularly bad.

Disclaimer: I'm D3 and do not understand non-Z matchups. Take my comments with a grain of salt, and please jump in when you see things I don't.

There's no formal map posting yet, but here are images of the new maps:

https://x.com/GGemini19/status/1848426725904113860

Today I tackle Amygdala, which is the most alarming map to me.

Amygdala is a cross between Crimson Court and Dynasty. It has Crimson's very restricted attack paths, without Crimson's crossover in the middle. The center of the map is completely blocked off initially. Facing toward the player is a gold base, initially disabled by a rock, whose mineral line is reachable from the blocked-off area. Any ranged unit that can get inside the block-off can deny mining from this base, as on Dynasty. There are rocks on the sides which I guess need to come down ASAP.

I have played several practice ZvT on this map. Last night my T practice partner was exclaiming over tank placements, something I don't grasp well myself. He put a tank in the main and showed that it covered most of the entrance to the nat--if you wanted to get into the nat without being shelled you had to hug the far wall, and there was an obvious second tank placement to deal with that plus watch a nearby ramp. I lost a couple armies proving this to myself.

In both games I felt I played the early game well, but lost to a slow mech build-up plus unbreakable Terran defenses. The gold base is just a trap until the side rocks are down, and hard to defend even then since units posted at it can't defend its mineral line from the longer-ranged units of other races. Also note that Terran can drop a base next to the disabling rock and start mining while waiting for the rock to come down, then nudge the base over--they used to do that on Stargazers.

I don't veto on ladder, but in tournament this would be my first veto (even if Dynasty was in play!) and it might just convince me to start vetoing on ladder. I always hope I can make friends with a weird map--became a huge fan of Blackburn after initially hating it, also Neo-Humanity--but I struggle with ZvT anyway and I don't know what to do here.

Six regular bases, two gold. My plan is to 5 roach rush every ZvT; if that fails, take out rocks at every opportunity, take the gold base and try to deny the opponent's. Might think about mutas early, on the grounds that T may get tank-happy. They can help deny bases in the block-off and can retreat into it if pressed.

Protoss will also easily deny gold mining and I think Skytoss can sit in the block-off and reduce Zerg to a thin rim of out-of-reach stuff--tempests sound good, though they will have reduced range due to the patch. Creep spread into the block-off will be delayed making spore forest hard. Protoss can also push a ground deathball down one of the attack lanes, with little chance of Zerg getting a surround--the same approach as mech Terran.

Mutas might be good in ZvZ also. Base trades are a real possibility with ground armies, unless the rocks all come down fast.

3800 mmr d2 zerg here. Getting frustrated at this game. Terran I have a good understand of. I still hate terran and their flying angels of infinite health, but vs terran I have the theory part down to carry me for a while. Protoss however I'm lost. I don't know what to build,What comp to use, nothing.
Lings feel useless, banes feel useless, roaches and ravs I like but star gate first makes them useless. Hydras I like but any splash makes them melt. It feels like the only unit that isn't garbage vs ground toss is lurkers. And that includes brood memes. I can use vipers decent I'm not great with fungal... does anyone want to take time to explain or send me guides on zvp? I'm lost right now. I have no theory knowledge and I don't know what else to do outside make roaches. Like I said, hydra does well, but melts to storm, collosus, or carriers. Voids melt corruptors, so I just get dumpstered by voids. Idk what to do anymore. And it's not scouting I need help with. I scout good. I see what's coming. I defend timing attacks. I multi task (yea no one will believe me but I do) I do multiple run bys while fighting. I'm aggressive. I deny bases. All that.

What I need help with is when it comes time to fight into the toss army. I just... can't. My wins are coming off multi prong and being fast and just playing faster than them. But I can seem to take any engagements where I actually can beat the toss army. And sure. I can wave after wave into them, but there hits a point of I'm maxed he's maxed and now we have to fight. Or whenever, any time I have to fight a toss ball it seems like I throw the swarm at them and just doesn't do anything What do I do?

Hey I started sc2 again looking to be more competitive after playing for 2 years in high school. I'm really enjoying relearning the game but I'm looking for some answers to my questions.

1. Whats a recommended worker count near the mid game? I've seen some guides recommend 50-55 but watched several players push 70 upwards - what would be an advisable amount for each matchup and/or for 2700 elo?

2. Are roaches the best early game vs every matchup? I've been getting incredible success going 2 hatch into ~12 roaches off 1 gas, either winning the game outright or denying them expansions. Even against banshee/void rays, they slow down the air units from moving across the map long enough for me to build a lair and transition into hydras. Are there any downsides/alternatives I should be thinking about when I open with roaches?

3. How do you open in zvz? I don't think I've ever made it past 7 mins vs zerg and I've tried lings, banes, and roaches but usually lose to more lings with metabolic. The only time I win is if they play roaches/banes, so what am I missing?

4. How should I play spire upgrades? It feels insane to drop an extra spire for 200/200 to make upgrades on time for zerg air compared to other classes, not to mention that greater spire stops upgrading air units. I usually end up building 1 spire since I don't want to commit to mutas/corrupters and end up with +2/+0 corrupters getting demolished by carriers late game. Is it pretty much lost if I have to tech into spire?

5. Are dated guides still applicable for learning in sc2? Most guides I see recommended are anywhere from 2-7 years old, which is something I'm not sure I should be considering when I'm trying to learn about meta + timings.

Thanks in advance for any help!

I'm D3 EU Zerg. 65% ZvZ, 56% ZvT, 44% ZvP.

For the life of me I just don't know how to play vs Protoss. I scout vs cannon rush at 1:05, spores and roach warren at 3:30 and generally aim to get to lurkers with banes. Colossus, Immortal, Archon, Skytoss... shield battery cannon, I just don't seem to be making the right decisions. I've generally got good vision with changelings in their army so I know when they're moving out.

I'm always ahead econ wise, just struggling. Anyone else sick of hearing about Protoss struggling at the tournament level but just perplexed by the match up?

I tried Pigs b2gm and ling bane is a laughable thing against toss, roaches are useless, hydras die to everything.

When I play PvZ (at plat 3 level) I struggle against Lurkers but when I play them against toss they just don't feel as strong.

Anything, any tips any resources would be great, ZvP is just misreble for me and has been since I started in Silver league.

The only thing that seems to work for me some days is 50 workers into 50 lings and destroy their 3rd, and build a ton of roaches for the counter attack.

Anyone else find the diamond stretch to be extremely difficult to break through? Seems like I play a lot of previous master level players. Of course, a lot that can be fixed on my end- constant scouting being one of them.

Here is my other post about my playstyle, for reference.

TLDR of that post: I always attempt to zergling rush, but Protoss seemed unwinnable. If my rush fails then I build zerglings + mutalisks for mid-game and try to hamper their expansions, late game I add ultras into the mix.

Big changes:

1. Switched to the build order suggested by Pig in his Bronze to GM Zerg series. I watched his first three games, learned a lot, including some cocoon tricks I didn't know. Helped a ton.

2. Routinely adding anti-air. I was also losing a TON of games due to flyers harassing my mineral line. Took me way too long to realize that spore colonies are actually pretty strong. I had always assumed they were squishy and awful, but just 3 in each base can fend off all but a battleship.

3. Actually started scouting. I'm a huge man of Pneumatized Carapace. Big, big fan. I always get it against Terran and Protoss.

What I still lose to: Skytoss. I will have to start building corruptors. That means no more three unit-type armies. How sad.

I gained about 500 MMR in ~100 games. At this rate, I'll be GM in two weeks. Awesome.

Note: If I know I've lost I quit immediately. My typical game length is probably 5-8 minutes. That's how I was able to play 100 games in 4 days.

Is it bad to buy a lot of different kinds of tech in late game? Like getting ultras/broodlords/lurkers? With upgrades

One of the things that makes me stay in Diamond 1 is this playstyle. I absolutely hate it to the point I might just stop playing the game ZvT when I encounter this playstyle. I've struggled against Terran more and more every season and it's not fun at all to play against them. Here is a replay. Maybe you can enlighten me on what to do against this playstyle. Thanks In advance!

Edit: Title I meant BCs in ZvT, not HC lol. I choose this replay because this is the longest I've lived against vs. Mech

https://drop.sc/replay/25733262

I'm no pro, and this was a 2v2 game: two Zerg versus two Protoss. We reached the late game, with both teams fully upgraded. My ally went for Brood Lords and Lurkers, while I used Ultralisks, Zerglings, Vipers, and Infestors. Both of us had Corruptors. The Protoss team massed Immortals, had some Colossi, Tempest, Phoenixes, Archons, high templars and Stalkers. And... we couldn't do anything against them. it was a complete and utter destruction.

We controlled most of the map but still lost every single battle. The Immortals erased Ultralisks and Lurkers as if they were tier 1 units, and the Colossi wiped out Zerglings in seconds. We usually beat them on the air, but once the Tempest and Phoenixes were gone, our Corruptors became useless. We had nothing to stop the Stalkers from killing the Brood Lords, and the remaining Immortals to just walk in and destroy our bases.

I tried to abduct as many Tempest and Colossi as I could, but it was useless. I’d only manage to kill three or five units each time, which isn't relevant against eight or twelve Immortals. And fungal Growth just made our obliteration painfully slower, it felt like Slow Mobius dead. It just did it comically worst.

So, what should we have done in that scenario? How do you stop a fully upgraded Protoss army with Zerg?

EDIT: I type Void ray instead of tempest. It was actually tempest like 6 or 8 of them

Alright folks, let us go straight to the point. The mothership in the new patch seems to be a huge problem now that vipers can't abduct them anymore. So now you have to produce a ton of corruptors to deal with the mothership and even if you can deal with it, protoss will quickly switch to the ground army to overwhelm you while you have a ton of dead supply in the air. Broodlords transition seem to be the current solution but it cost a ton and I don't want to force the players to play broodlords either so here is my proposal :

Midgame upgrade : return to the source
All selected corruptors are consumed and hatcheries produce as many larvas as the quantity of corruptors consumed. (Half / Three-quarters / A quarter) of the resources spent on them are salvaged.

Tell me what you think

This is my novice ramblings about my attempt to hit plat. This is mostly for my own sake, for some finality, because I binged SC2 over the past couple of days and I need to move on with life. :P Any feedback is welcome. I hit Gold 3 (edit: Gold 1, I mean) but couldn't quite break into the next level.

Be aware: I don't enjoy intense micro, and zerg has enough micro, so I wanted to see if I could have success with "simple" units like Zergling, Mutalisk, and Ultralisk. Occasionally I would build Hydralisk but their lack of mobility against harassing flyers didn't appeal to me.

I wanted to play "zerg swarm". Overrunning my opponent's base with a horde of zerglings is quite satisfying. In my experience, zergling rush works quite well against other Zerg, decently against Terran (depends on the map and whether they mass hellbats), and poorly against Protoss.

Against Terran I would use banelings to break down a key part of their wall and then flood them with zerglings. Super fun. I would usually get the carapace upgrade as well as the speed upgrade. If I could destroy them in the early game then I'd ramp into Mutas and Ultralisks.

Against Zerg I would usually get both lvl 1 upgrades + speed upgrade and even roaches could not stop me. Banelings could stop me and I never got good enough at micro to deal with this.

My win rate against Protoss is probably <25%. Cannon rush is no fun and I rarely spotted it early enough to stop it. As for rushing their base: even with banelings, certain types of walls were too difficult to penetrate. I don't think I ever won mid or late game against Protoss. Mutas + Ultralisks clearly aren't good enough.

All that being said, both strategies I employed: zergling rush and "zerglings-mutas-ultras" couldn't get me out of gold. And it wasn't for lack of trying. I'm fairly confident in my build order, but I imagine that more micro-intensive units are necessary to break into plat, and I don't have interest in that.

If anyone knows of any YouTube replays against Protoss employing strategies like I tried to use, I'd be interested. Otherwise, I'm going to accept that I'm a gold 3 player for now. Maybe I'll try again when the new patch comes out.

Has anyone seen or has anything been decided on best new build order for new patch? Also, is there any builds that are more viable now than they were before?

Hello swarm ;)

I got to a point when I need to work out on my basics - I came back after a long break, and I finally got the feeling of the game back.

Saying that - damn this is hard.

I need to practice some micro - casters - vipers to be precise. Plus some units management, it is taking me too much time to figure out how to group/ungroup and all army hotkey is used too often...

So long story short:
I am looking for a micro trainer that will help me out, preferable zerg focus :)

The PTR patches have received all the attention and discussion, but the PTR server also has a bunch of new maps.

Has anyone done any analysis on the maps? Are there graphs with the overlord pylons and so on out?

I'm a forever diamond 3 for a while now. I can macro well (for my league), deffend well (for my league), but I can't win against late game protoss/terran. I usually stay with ling / bane, roach/hydra for too long and allways lose to a more balanced army. I also suck against tanks.

What is a good late game zerg? What are unit compositions that I should be aiming for?

Hi guys, I watched Harstem's video on a 2 base hydra timing attack yesterday. It sounds like a build that shouldn't work, but based on the video and my tests against AI, it's surprisingly effective. I'm curious, has anyone tried this on ladder and had decent results with it?

Here's the approximate build order.
Evo chamber after pool > +1 ranged attack (skip ling speed)
~3m Lair > Hydra Den
2 base / 4 gas
Get both hydra upgrades and +1/+1, attack around 6:00 with ~12-16 hydras

The main drawback I see is it seems vulnerable to early pressure. But the +1 hydras melt everything the opponent has that early in the game.

I'm fairly new to Starcraft, all things considered, and Zerg's easily my favorite race. I've been following PiG's B2GM mostly and I've been watching a ton of pro SC matchers(love me some Rogue and Dark). Maybe it's not the greatest that I'm Gold 1 and my practice partner is Masters. In all of my games though it's seemed like anything I try to do Terran has some sort of answer for

I don't really like Roach/Rav as I've never really felt like it's accomplished enough in my games before it falls off a cliff and it's hard to transition out of. Muta harass is virtually useless against Terran. I do really like Ling/Bane, and it transitions well into Ultras. I've never been able to find much use out of Broodlords. I think the only units I haven't tried are Spellcasters(my micro's not very good), Swarmhosts, and Lurkers

Every time I try to harass my opponent I can't seem to bust through their wall in time, Planetaries are almost impossible to attack well, and bio MMM just seems to outpace everything I try to do(I know Infestors are supposed to help). I haven't fought many Mech players but it also just seems incredibly hard to beat that army head on

Terran just gets to scan my production and everything for free, when I have to sac an OL or Overseer just to get a peak at what they're doing. They get a wall up before my Drone can get a quick cheeky scout in. So it also feels like I'm just never able to keep pace with them and react to what they're teching up to.

I'd love to get better, and especially be able to play more aggressive and control the state of the game more. Here are a couple of my replays against my Masters buddy. If y'all've got any advice for a budding Starcraft player I'd really appreciate it

https://drop.sc/replay/25714917

https://drop.sc/replay/25714920

https://drop.sc/replay/25714916

https://drop.sc/replay/25714915

Hello everyone,

I've put together a flowchart for the ZvZ standard build order, inspired by Curiosikey’s ZvP flowchart. It covers strategies on responding to early-game pressures and mid-game decision-making. The information is drawn from the SC2Swarm website and insights from Lambo. I'd love any feedback on ways to improve it, or just let me know what you think!

https://miro.com/app/board/uXjVLMnwtv0=/

It's been a while since I've built Brood Lords and felt like it was a good choice. I'll pull them out thinking it's a trump card play that will make my army more power-dense and for at least one fight the enemy won't have a good response. Instead, it feels like my army got worse and the enemy's basic T1/2 comp needs no adjustment to steam roll me harder.

And yet, I watch pros use them all the time and get good value out of them. The enemy is forced to adjust their comp to deal with the new threat. There seems to be a gap. I can see that they are microing their BLs, but i don't understand what they are doing that makes the unit work in the current patch.

Does anyone have any suggestions for this? Are there any video tutorials on effective Brood Lord micro?

Dear fellow zerglings,

as of late I reached Diamond 3 but got myself beaten back to Almost Plat 2/Plat 1. Can't help it, got to Diamond by stupidly macroing, I am still trying to do that and try to scout and act accordingly. That's when I just got beaten left and right and as in this game: The moment I faced archons I thought to myself, well, RIP ... now it's too late. Can't win a fight, I took bad engagements.

Here is the replay-link: https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/playerStats/25705864/3131386

I'll add a description of what I think went completley wrong later when I'm less tilted (but to be honest, no trace of anger in me, just pure desperation at this point).

Greetings fellow swarm, it's with much sadness that I read the balance notes and see EVERY hive Zerg unit nerfed, I advice grabbing your emotional support zergling and giving it the adreno upgrade since it is now the hive tech.

You know what the most ridiculous part about the new patch is? The comment that they want to open up new types of mech playstyles. It feels like it's just flat out gaslighting with that comment.

Since I've started getting into higher level platinum by far the most common Terran strategy is to harass with 3-4 libs and buy enough time to build 15-20 tanks. No bio at all. It should be an easy check mate if someone builds 90% one unit, but they throw in 3-4 Thors and it feels impossible to counter. All ground units get blasted to shreds immediately, and Thor check-mates any aerial counter. The only way you can win is absolutely flawless viper execution with blinding clouds but one slip and your precious vipers are blasted to shreds. I don't have nearly the skill or APM to pull that off yet, and all the terran has to do is siege up the tanks.

The fact they felt the need to buff libs and encourage more mech play is outrageous. Mech is incredibly lame already

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