/r/Xiongnu
Subreddit dedicated to the discussion around the Xiongnu confederation, and the various ethnic groups which were part of this great steppe confederation.
The discussion can be extended to various groups which called themselves Huns, as well as some of nomadic groups they interacted with. Consider the Xiongnu to be the glue which sticks all these topics together.
Subreddit dedicated to the Xiongnu confederation.
/r/Xiongnu
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Language of Huns
I have a book dedicated to Xiongnu people called "Hunların Dili" (Language of Huns) written by Turkish linguist and Turkologist Talat Tekin. Would you want me to translate it to English so that you can read?
15:37 UTC
Xiongnu chieftain by Joan Francesc Oliveras Pallerols
16:40 UTC
Runic characters of the Xiongnu-Xianbei script. Characters on the right are Chinese
10:43 UTC
New subreddit I made, Don't worry I will still post in this community of course!
21:59 UTC
Ancient Chinese Historian Describes The Xiongnu // Before The Mongols //...
19:54 UTC
Who were the Dingling exactly?
Dingling and Xiongnu
The Dingling were first subjugated by the Xiongnu, but the latter gradually weakened. In 71 BCE, after numerous conflicts between the Chinese and the Xiongnu, the Dingling, lead by Zhai Jin, with help from neighboring tribes, took the opportunity to revolt. From 63 to 60 BCE, during a split within the Xiongnu ruling clan of Luanti (挛鞮), the Dingling attacked the Xiongnu, together with the Wusun from the west, supported by the Chinese from the south and the Wuhuan from the southeast.
In 51 BCE, the Dingling, together with the Hujie and Gekun, defeated by the Xiongnu under Zhizhi Chanyu, on his way to Kangju. Over the next century there may have been more uprisings, but the only recorded one was in the year 85, when together with the Xianbei they made their final attack on the Xiongnu, and Dingling regain its power under Zhai Ying. After that, under the Dingling pressure, the remaining of northern Xiongnu and the Tuoba formed the confederacy by Xianbei chief Tanshihuai (檀石槐). After his death in 181, the Xianbei moved south and the Dingling took their place on the steppe.
Some groups of Dingling, called the West Dingling by the ancient Chinese, started to migrated into west Asia, settled in Kangju (康居), modern day Kazakhstan. There is no specific source to tell where exactly they settled, but some claims that the Lake Zaysan was where they used to settled. In Mongolian language, Zhai (翟) is read as Zaysan (宰桑) or (斋桑) in Mongolian names.
Today I decided to have the bright idea to find out who the Dingling were, and to be honest I was not very successful in my endeavors to say the least. Not only can I barely find some good sources on them, whatever bits I find are quite contradicting.
For example I see this quoted a lot:
Chinese chronicles also described those people as hairy blond monkeys. Only pred. Caucasoids can share these characteristics. Furthermore Dinlins were of medium growth, often tall, well-build, had elongated faces, white color of skin with blush on the cheeks, blond hair, protruding nose, often aquiline and light eyes.
But I cannot really trace down the source, although it is quite likely from a book about the Xiongnu written by Lev Gumilev.
And then I also read this, but with no quotations:
Chinese records did not mention the physical appearance of the Dingling, suggesting general homogeneity with people of the Asiatic region
The lifestyle description and ascribed location of the Dingling make me think they were at least connected to the archaeological Tashtyk culture, if not outright the Tashtyk people. I think that they can be linked to the Yenisei Kyrgyz (the Turkic culture I find most fascinating) who were a mixture of these Andronovo related people and a more eastern Turkic population. From archaeology it is quite apparent that the Tashtyk had substantial interactions with Asiatic people, and were perhaps under the control of the Xiongnu.
But then the question begs, were the Dingling initially the fair people of the Tashtyk culture, or were they the native Siberians who lived east of them?
I found this booklet about the history of the Kyrgyz and I found some interesting things mentioned:
So apparently one of the foundations myths of the Kyrgyz indicates that they were the offspring of Dinlin males and Kun females. But that doesn't really solve much because it could very well be that the ethnogenesis of the Kyrgyz occurred before they went westward and assimilated the the Tagar/Tashtyk people. In fact it is quite likely, since I think the first mention of the Yenisei Kyrgyz was from the second century BC.
Does anyone know if the U-sze and Usuns are supposed to be the Yuezhi and Wusun?
The mentioning of tattoos is interesting because that tradition can be linked to the Tashtyk culture, who have shown evidence of tattooing practices.
History of Civilizations of Central Asia, page 183
In here they make the compelling argument that if the name of the Tiele is linked to that of the Dingling, then the Dingling should be considered the origin of the Turkic element in of the Yenisei Kyrgyz, rather than the Andronovo element.
Although I certainly think this can be looked at through a more modern lense, especially with the findings we get from ancient population genetics. For example much of the Asian ancestry in the Tashtyk had already been present in the Tagar culture, and was predominantly female mediated.
For now that is all I will write since sleep is well overdue right now. I'll try to see if I can uncover more tomorrow. Topics shrouded in mystery like these fascinate me!
The next day:
After doing some reading, in particular this article The problems of the history of the ancient Kyrgyz (initial resettlement), I am now less convinced that the Dingling were the Tashtyk culture, but rather that they were connected in a way.
This is me just completely making a scenario up but it could be that the Tashtyk were initially under Xiongnu control, but later by the Dingling. The Dingling were Turkic, but they had relations with the Tagar/Tashtyk. We see asian mtdna haplogroups amongst them, but what if Tagar/Tashtyk women also went the other direction. It could explain why the Dingling were perhaps unique looking in comparison to their peers, but why they were still Turkic speaking groups.
The Tashtyk culture seems to get replaced in the fifth century by a material culture associated with the Yenisei Kyrgyz. Which still leaves at least two centuries before the Yenisei Kyrgyz show up in history as red-headed, tall, tattoo'd people. But before the Yenisei Kyrgyz migrate into the region, there are already hints of them being ruled by an Asiatic population, but this could easily be in the sense of them being part of a confederation rather than the Tashtyk being invaded, destroyed and conquered and such. Interestingly Tian Shan Kyrgyz have a very high amount of R1a1, which means that they possibly can trace their parental lineage back to the men of the Tashtyk.
This Russian website has some great articles regarding the Yenisei Kyrgyz and the Tashtyk culture, google translate works fine I can't read Russian but these texts are perfectly comprehensible.
- http://kronk.spb.ru/index.htm
- The Society and State of the Yenisei Kyrgyz in the 7th-8th centuries
- Tashtyk chronology: state of the issue.
- (Tashtyk culture) products of the Hunnic type
- http://kronk.spb.ru/library/barkova-ll-1975.htm
Another Russian article.
23:02 UTC
Let's appreciate these Xiongnu cosplayers
These reconstructions of Xiongnu clothing are based on preserved pieces from Noin-ula, Mongolia.
22:25 UTC
Semi-related threads of mine you might find interesting.
This thread is about the Andronovo related people which inhabited the Siberian valleys, and were ultimately ancestral to the Yenisei Kyrgyz, and their area likely was under Xiongnu control. They might also be a connection to the Dingling. The thread is mostly about archaeology and genetics, I think you will find it interesting to go through.
I recently learned something interesting about Japanese cultural development, and that is that the islands received a cultural steppe influence in the third century. Kurgans, equestrian warfare, myths and balbals (kurgan stelae) suddenly appear in Japan. I'm thinking of doing a follow-up for Korea.
About the White and Red huns, the Xionites, Kidarite and Hephtalites. some great sources and discussions in the comments.
21:52 UTC
Cai Wenji Returns to Her Homeland (文姬歸漢圖). Dated to the Song dynasty, this portrait depicts Cai Wenji and her Xiongnu husband.
21:21 UTC
The Lost Kingdoms: On the banks of the Ili River 1 | Documentary about the Wusun
19:34 UTC
Reconstruction of Hunnu clothing.
20:10 UTC
Ancient Chinese Historian Describes The Xiongnu // Before The Mongols // Book of Han (111 AD)
23:23 UTC
Twitter thread with archaeological finds of an elite Xiongnu cemetery (couldn't link the actual article)
19:22 UTC
Ancient Chinese descriptions of western Barbarians
14:18 UTC
A couple of great videos about the mysterious Jié
Part 1 is a little goofy, but it is still quite good and the other parts are less goofy and better. The Jié people were one of the ethnicities who were part of the Xiongnu, and founded the later Zhao dynasty. They had a distinctive look, and might have spoken a Yeniseian language.
History:
- Rise and Fall of the Jie, Part 1!
- The Rise and Fall of the Jie, Part 2!
- Rise and Fall of the Jie, Part 3!
- Rise and Fall of the Jie, Part 4!
Language:
Chinese:
秀支 替戾剛 僕谷 劬禿當
si̯u-ci̯e - tʰei-let/lei-kɑŋ - bok/buk-kuk/yo - ɡi̯u̯o-tʰuk-tɑŋ
army - go out - Liu Yao's barbarian title - capture
Yeniseian interpretation:
suke t-i-r-ek-ang bok-kok k-o-t-o-kt-ang
Armies have gone out. [They] will catch Bokkok.
14:16 UTC
In Search of "Commoners" in the Xiongnu Empire | Dr. Bryan Miller
13:53 UTC
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