I really enjoyed it until Episode 2. I already get that all the silly magic stuff is not real or a metaphor.
But why is there so much of it then?
Why are there hours of scenes that aren't even real, it feels like a waste of time.
I understand that the scenes can provide clues to what really happens, but it's just that, clues.
But there is so much effort put into it, drama, characters crying, screaming, etc and how are you supposed to care about any of it when you know it's not really happening? It would be fine if it was 5 min but we just get hours and hours of overly the top scenes in every episode.
When the big fight between Beatrice and Virgilia happens in ep 3 It just made me go "Yeah I get it, we're gonna have a badass anime fight for an hour, but it's not real and it just probably has some meaning behind it, but I'm not going to care about the characters emotions and what they show here cause it's not real".
Yet it's trying to make their deaths so emotional.

The death of Shannon in Ep 1 made me cry because I knew (or assumed) it was real. Every single bit of dialogue, reaction, or response from George was real.

In those over the top fake scenes, no matter how much they cry and suffer, it never has the same effect.

It just gets stale really fast.

It's so much fun! It's super easy to read, the characters aren't especially complex but it's impressive to see how Christie manage to paint in a few words a vivid image of them.

I don't want to spoiler tag the whole post so after this point it will be full spoiler for the first half of the book.

First off it's incredibly fun to see the similarities between ATTWN and Umineko. Both the setting, the mysterious figure that threatens the characters (U.N.Owen/Beatrice), the little song/epitath that directly parralells the murders. There's some sense of nostalgia that come from this read, so just for that I think it's a must read for any Umi fans out there. (Also I have an old edition with the original title so it adds a survival aspect to read this in the bus where people looks at me weirdly and or with scorn. (it was cheap pls forgive me))

Now regarding the murders, currently three murders were commited. Marston was poisonned in the living room, his glass contained cyanid. Mrs Rogers was found drugged with a lethal dose of some sort of sleeping pills in her bedroom during the night, and the general Macarthur was hit in the back of the head while he was on the beach. At this point virtually anyone could have done the murders, but at the moment, my theory is that U.N.Owen is the judge Wargrave. The reason is the why, Owen seems to want to enact a ruthless justice on people that have seemingly escaped justice. On that point only, Wargrave seems like the most likely suspect as a judge that is known for his tendency to manage to convict seemingly innocent suspect. Plus he would also have access to informations that would allow him to deduce the crimes commited by the other characters.

I also suspect Armstrong to be an accomplice, probably by fear of being convicted by Wargrave for the death he caused on his patient by being dead drunk.

Also fun to see how some characters looks really similar to the Umi cast like Eva & Natsuhi/Miss Brent; Rogers/Genji; Macarthur/Kinzo in less mad; Vera / Rosa and >!Natsuhi !< ; Armstrong/ Nanjo ; Marston / Rudolph (but like on ecstasy and with no knowledge of the concept of shame and culpability). Well not exactly a 1 on 1 but you can see where Ryukishi got the first inspirations.

Very good read

A little AU idea I started a while ago, trying to translate every Witch into a VtM Kindred, and Bernkastel being Lasombra was a immediate thought. It just fits perfectly the more I think about it, backstory wise and power wise. Might make a proper character sheet for her and even a proper backstory for her with some original elements as not make her too 1:1 with her Witch self. I’ll say this tho she does have an intense history with the Kindred Version of Lambda who is a Camarilla Prince.

What If Shannon and Kanon were actually two different people instead of...you know...? Would that change anything? I wanna hear your opinion about it.

Why yes, I am going to betray Rosa to win the love trial, how could you tell?

!It's Eriol from Card Captor Sakura.!<

This is in Ep8 chapter 24(?). Is this also in the original visual novel? Also such a Gohda thing to do. Every one else in the family is fraudster. Meanwhile, Gohda just can't keep it in his pants.

On the contrary, I quite liked it. Umineko is such a monumental work it's impossible to address its totality in few lines, but knowing how polarizing the conclusion of the story is, I feared much worse. I don't know if it all comes together as beautifully as it could have, and i have a few gripes, but I was largely happy with the conclusion.

(of course SPOILERS AHEAD and there's also a couple of Higurashi mentions, but I can't tag both)

I didn't mind the fact that the whodunit was kept vague. The shift from in focus from Truth to Meaning was handled reasonably well, at least when it comes to the characters. If you want my opinion, I think that >!what Bern showed us at the end of episode 7 is closer to the one truth than anything else, for all that matters,!< but who knows. I understand that the manga adaptation spells out more stuff clearly, but I'm not sure I care. Knowing that Sayo was behind the events is enough.

I thought the Goats were funny. I don't mind art that antagonizes the reader, especially audiences that expect "story fulfillment" at all cost, but I understand how one could really hate it. The metaphor was really in your face, but also very strong, and it reminded me of the whole narrative/database consumption theory behind doujin.

As readers, sometimes we end up being theatre-going Witches and brutish Goats, reading so much into things we forget a text doesn't exist only to fulfill our own desires. Either way, following Umi as it was coming out must have been a trip. You're trying to solve a murder, then fantastical elements are used as cover ups, and then the text tells you that "it doesn't really matter", after all. I don't mind, but again, it's challenging.

If I have any legitimate issue with the finale, it lies with Umineko's ontology. Ryukishi is humanist and deeply moralizing author. Which whatever, Dostoevsky was too. It's not a disqualifier, even if personally I don't particularly care. Not everything has to be an enriching fable. But that's something he cares about, a quality of his writing you can clearly see in his oeuvre.

Even in Higurashi, at the end of all the suffering there was a Big Moral he wanted to impart. In short: talk with each other, build trust, even if it is hard, because the second you stop, it all falls apart. But the way he went about it was fairly grounded. There's an understanding of the workings of society in shaping the individual. The collective, as in >!the scars of the Dam War,!< need to be resolved in order for the personal to find peace. Attempting to go the other way around simply doesn't work.

I feel this was mostly reversed in Umi. The individual is empowered to be a sort of a God-Reader interpreter of reality that can simply construct meaning at will, out of make-belief. Truth is not found by looking at the Real straight in the face, searching for intrasubjective mediation, but looking inward for solipsistic answers. And it's funny that R07 does this when he clearly understands that personal relationship are shaped by the social order. The whole family was beautifully presented in a very grounded way. Like, actual Flaubert and Balzac stuff that you rarely see in VNs.

This was mostly evident during the portions of the game directed by Battler. And like... overall, I think it's an extremely silly understanding (or theorizing) of how (we think) people interact with knowledge, and to turn it into a big "lesson"... I don't know, chief. It wouldn't be make it as big of a problem if the piece wasn't so clearly focused on it. At least I felt it was the core "message" of the whole enterprise, given how it kept popping up, long before being finalized in the finale.

To be fair, I think there's a certain amount of self awareness on the author's part, as Ange doesn't really buy it completely, maintaining even in the Magic ending a fair dose of skepticism. I think she understands she's keeping the "good memories" alive in her heart, and that's what counts.

But again, it's a relatively minor gripe. I wrote some about it because I love the novel, but I don't really care that much. R07 is no Gadamer or Lacan, and I think it's just a bit silly that he tries to so hard to be. But there's other stuff I think he's phenomenal at, and I can just focus on that.

Because in the end what remained to me was poor Ange trying to make sense of everything she had to go through. Fixating on something (the Truth) for way too much and understanding along the way that it didn't really matter. Everyone is already gone, and tormenting herself over it while the rest of the world feasts on the hypothetical corpses of her family is driving her mad. She just has to find a way to move on, even if it's hard and she has to "play pretend" a bit. If that's what it takes for her to step away from the void, so be it.

Her ability to forgive Eva and understand the pain that woman must have gone through, whatever may have happened, even if it was a bit too late, was probably my favorite moment of her arc. Eva, on her part, died hating that little girl who had the audacity of surviving in place of her son. But that's just the hand she was dealt. It's hard not to feel sorry for her, above everything. I still think that telling your adopted daughter that you wish to see her mutilated and whored out was a bit much, and I'm not sure I would be able to just imagine she would have been a nice lady if things went differently and the happy family we could have been, but ymmv.

There are so many things I loved about Umineko. R07 is really great at writing characters and walking them through an emotional journey, and the cast of the novel is superb. All the differences in age and status, the many vectors of complicated relationships between siblings and servants. And the voice acting, oh my god. From the quiet moments to their howling, A+.

Favorite character: it's difficult not to go with Battler or Beato, but if I have to be honest, it's probably Erika. I love that rat. The chapters that focus on her are probably my favorites. Or Bern. I loved the various Higu references, and seeing her like this... it did a number of my poor heart. Meep.

And the very final beats, with Ange being able to actually do magic (if you want to read it that way) and Battler coming back, but it's not him, and it has been decades, and all the pain is still there, under the surface... and then the dream sequence at the newly reopened Fukuin House, the memories of Battler being finally reunited with everyone, his family, the illusions, Beato, finally closing the circle... that was so, so beautiful.

I'm glad I spend 152 hours with this thing. It was so long, I'm exhausted. Eventually I'll read the manga, but I need some distance. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk, I just needed to put this together.

I can't be the only one who thinks it's kinda ridiculous that the apparent ONLY outcome for that world is for the massacre to still happen right?

The "real" massacre happened like it did because of two things: the adults all solving the epithet in one night, and then Beato handing out guns + explaining the bomb. The first one is incredibly unlikely already, and Lion existing shouldn't make it more plausible, and the second is really weird in a world where Beato doesn't exist unless we assume that Kyrie and Rudolf were always planning on killing everyone with guns, but that would probably fail if 80% of the adults didn't die in the gold room

Not only that, but Bern never confirms anything about it in red, and we don't even get to see what the argument is between Bern and Will in the tea party + the episode 8 tea party shows in general that you can kind of do anything with Will and Lion and it'll work out. All this to say, I'm convinced that Bern is lying or wrong even though the manga doesn't confirm it either way

SPOILERS FOR THE ENTIRE UMINEKO STORY

I finished the Umineko visual novel a few months ago and have a few questions about the story to make sure I am understanding the mysteries properly.

1. Are we supposed to believe that Jessica, Natsuhi, Krauss, Gohda, George, and all of the other members of the family/mansion staff couldn't tell that Kanon and Shannon were the same person? Wouldn't years and years of proximity for some of these people require them to be exceedingly stupid for them to not figure this out?

2. Is Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice/Yasu/Lion confirmed to be male, given the "Man from 19 years ago" story plotline and the fact that Natsuhi all but confirms that the baby she was given was a baby boy?

3. Was Kinzo's trial in episode 4 asking if each sibling would be willing to sacrifice either their family, their lover, or their own life, just a giant metaphor for Kinzo being the true catalyst for the carnage depicted in episode 7? We are told that Kinzo was basically an innocent bystander, witnessing human greed at work and stepping in to save his beloved, but this trial for the children seems to be implying he actively made the choice to sacrifice his "family" to attain his life and his lover. Are we being told to perhaps attach a bit more blame upon Kinzo for the events depicted in episode 7?

4. If Lion is Yasu/Kanon/Shannon, how do they interact with Kanon and Shannon in episode 7, in the presence of the objective observer/detective Willard?

5. This one is pure speculation, but am I right that we are generally being pointed at the fact that the episode 7 tea party is (with room for various differences in what is depicted) the truth of what happened on the island? Personally it is the only explanation that makes any sense in terms of how everyone died and yet Battler AND Eva were able to survive. Again, I get that the depiction of the events in episode 7 aren't supposed to be "The truth", but some derivative of this situation in which everyone turns on each other due to greed is the most likely occurrence, and the reason why Battler wouldn't hate Sayo/Beatrice after the events on the island: because she didn't actually kill everyone. She merely caused everyone to die by showing them the gold and telling them about the bomb and that they may do what they like with the information. So metaphorically she killed everyone, but literally there is no individual person to blame and all families share culpability in the tragedy.

Sorry if any of these questions were either worded poorly or exceedingly obvious to answer. Just some thoughts I've had over the past couple of weeks while pondering the convoluted yet meticulously planned story.

https://preview.redd.it/d3d5tz6ab64e1.png?width=715&format=png&auto=webp&s=ed144b081926bda12bdde42012de0e13f6cb68e0

https://preview.redd.it/0ja81pld454e1.png?width=694&format=png&auto=webp&s=0ad37dbf8d0bb7841a351af9e21aa936ccc4e6d6

So I was looking back at Umineko trying to recall moments between the two where it showed their relationship of one another.

But I don’t remember it being as integral as say Battler, Beatrice or even Ange’s romantic pairings.

They’re Lambda and Bernkastel have some banter and don’t really take too much time going over their romantic feelings. They’re just two entities playing with the characters and occasionally Lambda teasing Bern.

Are there any scenes In missing that go more in depth of their relationship?

https://preview.redd.it/qdbcyx9zi44e1.png?width=2000&format=png&auto=webp&s=dc461dba34f1ff3daae5a573112260af3e7a6eb8

Also yes, the Krauss X Gohda dream is based off the Phoenix X Edgeworth yaoi drawing

Questions Arc and Answer Arc are around 4$ each Thankyou steam ❤️

Did you feel the mysteries were smartly written or were they very simple but convoluted with a lot of mess ?

Other than the lip sync and effects does it have enhanced/more expressions for the characters? Thats mainly the only thing Im interested so Im thinking on passing it up and just sticking with 07th mod if it doesnt have it.

Thanks for any replies.

Most (if not all?) the games hide the murders under the pretense of a murder mystery party, with Sayo making up cover stories like "realistic mannequins". It made wonder how many accomplices actually see the bodies up close. Leaving out Genji because he knows the murders are real. Writing that Rosatrice analysis a while back made the crime scenes fresh on my mind.

EPISODE 1

Eva, Hideyoshi, and Nanjo all see the corpses in the shed. Nanjo isn't described as touching the corpses. The smashed faces probably help the illusion here, since the face would be the most obvious tell.

Only Nanjo sees Eva and Hideyoshi's corpses up close. There's this interesting bit:

Nanjo checked their pulse and their pupils, making certain of their deaths once more. As Kanon watched this businesslike treatment, he thought... Couldn't you tell at a glance that they're dead without doing all that?

Sounds like Nanjo was getting suspicious and Sayo noticed it.

EPISODE 2

There's no objective evidence of the accomplices getting a close look at the corpses in the chapel. But there's a weird line about Rosa finding the corpses beautiful so I think at least she did and might have had thoughts of this all being real. The sheer absurdity of the crime (spilled out guts sprinkled with candy) might actually help the illusion here, like in a "no way that can be real" kinda way.

Jessica's death is kinda stupid, though. The whole debate about her death happens in the same room as her corpse. You'd think Sayo would put a blanket over the corpse "to protect her dignity" or suggest they leave the room. Might be the riskiest murder, which is funny since its so simple.

George, Shannon and Gohda's deaths are all seen by Rosa, but at that point Sayo is dead and the game is over, so...

EPISODE 3

I'm taking the manga solution at face value and assuming Eva and Hideyoshi were bought off from the start. For the locked room ring, we only see the discovery of Shannon, and the only accomplice who sees her up close is again Nanjo. Our Confession implies the ones who actually die are face-down, so again we have the face covered up. Interestingly, Rosa thinks the murders were a prank by Kinzo.

Of course, Eva derails Sayo's plans and all pretense of a party go out the window. Maybe Sayo, in true And Then There Were None fashion, told Nanjo she needed to keep playing dead to catch the real culprit.

What's strange is Eva discovering George next to Shannon. You'd think Eva would kill Shannon. Most realistic scenario is Eva was bought off without the party pretense, and Sayo hid her identities, making the deal as Beatrice.

EPISODE 4

Literally everyone but Battler is in on the party pretense, so none of them probably ever saw a corpse.

if you like 1 or 2 the best then like the comment by me that says the chapter you pick.

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As a 16 years old boy, I was first introduced to Umineko by my partner at the time, who showed me the anime opening which immediately got me hooked.

Over time I watched the anime twice in total: once 10+ years ago (?), and once two years ago.

Lately I have discovered the world of visual novels thanks to Danganronpa. After finishing Danganronpa 2 I was absolutely shocked by how much I loved this format, I did not know that visual novels where so fitting my tastes.

So after finishing the game I wanted a solid visual novel, and I have always read high praises for Umineko.

Episode 1 is very slow. But I feel I’m finally getting into it. And I am in this weird, masochist relationship with its pace. I feel like I’m being slowly teased, and while I get bored sometimes, I cannot stop going back to it and think about it when I am not reading.

I don’t remember much from the anime really, only a couple of random details that make no sense in my mind and are on the contrary enhancing my experience as I want to go forward to understand really what they ment, as they’re blurred pictures of characters or situations that make no sense in the current context.

I have a feeling that the story is up for a crazy, slow, yet absolutely rewording build up and I’m here for it.

I just wanted to share my enthusiasm with this community. Did you have a similar experience?

Like right now I’m on a bus to go to a friend’s place but I just want to go back home really and read Umineko.

So it is established that Kanon isn't real and its actually just Shannon dressed up as him since they're the same right? But now two things confused me

1. How were Shannon and kanon both in the same room around others in ep 4 where the others fall into the dungeon

2. How do Shannon and Kanon simultaneously exist in the world where Lion exists?

I feel dumb for being stuck on this, but I'm trying to make out the mysteries seriously and my mind is breaking xD