It is often said by dating advisors that before getting physical with a woman a man should ask her permission. This is because she might be afraid to say no if she fears you might get angry and abuse her in retaliation. Given that most men are physically stronger, this seems reasonable. However, how does asking permission circumvent this? For all she knows, you could be asking in bad faith, and still get angry if she refuses. Therefore, her yes might actually mean no, because she was too afraid to say no. How can you possibly tell whether or not her yes is sincere or said because she is afraid to say to say no?

what is dating in finland/sweden like, dating culture that is. are women forwards? do you as a man ask out people like how americans advise you to do on rdating advice? do women dislike men like on femaledating strategy? or ambivalent? or do they like men, like are women attracted to men there/there?

hey there. been subbed here under my main for a while and wanted to get this off my chest. I know this ain't the busiest place but I would value some input on where I'm at right now

So my (24M) first real 9-5 job post-college is paying to relocate me out of state next month, and now that restrictions are lifted in the US, I planned a final beach trip with four of my best friends from highschool. Three of them have been in long term relationships, and I've always been on good terms with their respective girlfriends- they're even in the same discord server that my friends and I use to coordinate games, so I thought it was only logical to have them included on plans as well, and I was hyped for the weekend

But honestly, I felt the group dynamic was just off during the trip and I didn't have as much fun as I thought I was going to. When we were at restaurants or walking from place to place, the couples naturally ended up talking amongst themselves over time, and while I enjoyed getting drunk with the one other single guy in the friend group, it was impossible to ignore when we were at the beach and the couples got in the water together. I'm happy for each one of them, but I couldn't help but think about how serious their relationships were, and how I've yet to have anything like that in my life (I've had a handful of one night stands and a FWB, but no exclusive relationship).

Don't get me wrong, I understand that it isn't healthy to assume a girlfriend will "complete" you, and even after I move, I'm taking a few months to get settled and hit the gym hard before even trying dating apps again. moving is a big decision, I'm really glad to have a job that pays me enough to live alone in the city, and I don't think I would be able to do what I am doing if I were dating someone local.

But at the same time, I'm entering this new chapter of my life and my bros are in their new chapters as well- with their significant others being a big part of that. Despite the sentiment in paragraph 2, I really do think once I'll hit my stride with women once I've been in my own place a while. but I am also worried about being able to build close male friendships in the future. It feels like once you get further into your mid/late 20s, those romantic relationships begin to take up more of the room you have in your social life, so you have less bandwidth for new friends, if that makes sense. Is this relatable?

So..... For years ever since I was I was born, shy and timid. I would stay on the school Library and read a lot. Or would spend time with my two BFF. That changed when i become 15. I met a girl and fell in love. So me being a dumbass tries to appeal to her by buying shit for her, small things, then on June of 2019 i assked her to go to prom by kneeling over her, She did not answer, blushed, got the attention of half the school, yada yada. Very cringe. I move out of school so i lost her. (I was interested of her due to having...erm prominent body shape and being a kind person., I felt ashamed of this)

Then 16 years old in 11º grade i met a girl... lets give her the name of.... "Carlota"

So i met Carlota in late 2020 and.. oh my... she was gorgeous.

I was interested almost immediately. I learned from that clusterfuck and tried a new approach, this time it was subtle that is no big gifts and shit like that (However the entire class including her knew i liked her... i never hide that) I sent her all my responses in the online tests and made sure she got the right answers. I fetl pride and fulfillment when i helped her with success and sadness when i failed to help her. Then on March i revealed my feelings.... she rejected me, she was however very polite about it. Now i feel a looser, get nightmares in which i get to be a her boyfriend but become abusive. I started to suffer from lack of self confidence. I feel like that im not simply not attractive enough. I got depression. I hated my own body and thought that i could not protect her in case of danger. I fear that even if i tried i would be cringy/bad boyfriend.....

Is this normal for teenagers? I hope im not alone here.

EDIT: im not against her. I actually respect her a lot. Im against myself, and have the idea that for some reason or other would not be a good boyfriend.

Flirting feels like harassment. I'm too scared to talk with women, it's the usual issue of not being able to talk with them due to being afraid of being the usual creepy harassing male you keep reading about. To even start a conversation with a woman feels wrong, you are just another male trying to get into her pants or harass her. Flirting feels wrong so wrong, but flirting seems to be how dating works in the modern world , or at least that is my impression of it when reading about dating advice online to try to understand it. Flirting is full of what do you call it half truths, or rather teasing kinda, not wrong not right ambiguity and humour, but how is anyone supposed to know what is what? You could accidentally be making her uncomfortable and sound like a icky creepy male.

Then there's the issue where to talk to women, nowhere is really appropriate gym, nope, library nope, bus nope, shop nope, bar nope, hobby club things nope, jogging trails nope nope nope. Only place seems to be Tinder which works i guess but i don't know how to flirt in real life let alone with something as limiting as text only. I ask her questions about her profile and album but that's about it, it never leads to anything, it just dims out slowly until neither of us can be arsed to ask more questions because im too afraid and too unknowledgeable about romance and flirting to make a further move or ask out on a date.

I keep posting about this, i get many answers but i do not know how to apply them or which answers are true or not. Then we return to the same step 1 as i have been on the last few years, to even talk with women without being afraid, to not feel like walking on eggshells lest i offend her.

What have you guys been doing in terms of COVID safe dating? I find it hard to really invest myself in dating right now as committing to someone would mean dating and going places in person. I thought people where I live would care less about COVID safe dates as I live in a more conservative area, but it seems like women around here have it as a top priority (which is a good thing but still, frustrating to work with).

I find digital video dates to be a very bad idea with someone you barely know as it can be a very bad way to get a first impression of someone, but I do understand why those kinds of dates are recommended.

Some of the advice I've gotten here just straight up bad.

Host a barbecue? Really?

I'm 19m. I'm really introverted and have social anxiety, and I have had one serious relationship but it was with someone who asked me out after we spent 4 months talking every day.

Now, I'm (hopefully) probably hyping up the extent to which women are cynical and preassuming of all men they encounter being rapists, but I have never in my life gone up to a female stranger or tried to ask a girl out, and I'm convincing myself it's because I don't want to look like a predator. I feel like the confidence required to date in the first place requires that you be at least somewhat of a predator.

I'm also definitely just socially anxious and extremely inhibited about rejection, but I think society has told me from birth that I'm a sexed-up meathead if I even exhibit interest in dating or sleeping with a female. Somehow being a man means your sexuality is toxic and rapey.

I have lots of mental stuff to work through, and especially with COVID there are really limited chances to meet new people, but in my very young and inexperienced dating life I feel like the atmosphere of most men being rapey perverts is causing me to refuse any initiative in having a dating life.

As I understand very well, and I promise I'm working on, it all starts with my self-image, so I'm using the pandemic and my loads of downtime and alone time to work through my demons, build my habits, build my confidence, get comfortable as myself despite being a privileged upper-middle-class white male scum (lol), etc. But with so many of my friends having lots of romantic and sexual experience, I'm feeling both FOMO and like some kind of awkward loser for being a romantic late bloomer. At the same time though, who's to say I even am that? I had a girlfriend for a year in high school and lost my v-card at a very normal 16, but I've barely held a conversation with the other gender since then.

I would like to get to know you guys better and see what your thoughts are about various topics.

Prev-https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollYDating/comments/iowvrn/i_20m_would_like_to_ask_a_girl_out_at_work_and_i/

So I finally asked her out. I took a very long time for me to do this. That was because I had to slowly build-up my social skills. Back then I couldn't even say hello to a customer at work. I would overthink something so simple. But over time as I started asking how people were and as I started having smalltalk with coworkers I started to slowly improve. After that I became much more confident in my ability to talk to other people and in turn became more confident asking out that girl.

She told me that she had a boyfriend although she did seem flattered. And I think she legitimately had a boyfriend too not the "I have a boyfriend excuse because I don't want to tell you no" kind of reason. And truth be told I kinda already suspected she would have a boyfriend. But there was a certain point where it wasn't about her anymore. I wanted to prove to myself that I would be able to get out of my comfort zone and I did.

After I asked her out my hands were shaking.

This was actually the 1st time that I asked a girl out ever.

Any questions?

NEET Stands for not in education employment or training. I have a job at a grocery store and I take online classes in college although I have never lived on my own and still live with my parents.

What is your living situation look like?

Sometimes I read that people are bad dating are NEETS so I wonder if that applies to you.

I'm not ashamed of that last part, I included it for the benefit of those of you who are going to tell me that I'm not that old or that it's okay to be a short asian male--though to be clear you're wrong about those things too. And I didn't even mention any of the multiple problems with my now publicly viewable dick.

I have all these nuanced and fairly progressive opinions about "toxic masculinity," and yet I can't help but be realistic about the fact that it's over for me.

I was finally starting to get over her. I had a good week for the first time in a month and now I just.. can’t stop thinking about her.

I still love her. And she wasn’t trying to reconcile she was just apologizing for hurting me. Responding won’t change anything and I know that but.. fuck.

I hate this.

I can’t wait to not live here anymore. I move back to Texas in 5 weeks. God FUCKING DAMMIT.

I’ve been on dating apps for awhile. Tinder and Bumble is usually what I go for, and I’ve been seeing this girl on both apps for awhile. I decided to swipe right and miraculously we matched. We talk for awhile and finally I asked if she has any social media. She says no. Immediately I have red flags going off, but I take a chance. We meet and the pictures she used on the dating app do her no justice. She’s more beautiful in person. We start talking about how many partners. Naturally I want to know. I tell her I’ve been with 6 girls and she shyly says she waiting for marriage. I could not believe my ears. We got into education and she’s going into clinical psychology. She wants at least a masters before children. She’s 22. I tell her I’m an engineer. We talk kids, and she point blank stated that she’ll raise them and there will be no nannies. She said she doesn’t mind being a stay at home mom if need be. I ask what her ethnicity is and she says she’s Greek-which explains a lot about her disposition. I get in the car. And I realize I’ve found a gem. She’s not a feminist. She dresses classy and has not one social media account. She absolutely loves Ariana Grande and Selena Gomez. I’m not ready for marriage and neither is her, but I want her for myself. I still can’t believe she’s a virgin, but she’s wants to wait for her wedding night. Tell me your thoughts.

While yes I’m lonely and horny as hell all the time, those aren’t good reasons to enter a relationship. Thoughts guys?

I feel worried about dating because reading online about womens experiences with it like getting raped, murdered, harassed. And when not dating there's like getting asked out in stores when you just wanna buy food, at library, bar, gym and so on. And then they get asked out online. "the fact that I'm still attracted to men is proof that sexuality isn't a choice". Men are just so gross against women. And i'm a man, or at least a boy. I worry if i ever start dating i'll accidentally harass or creep out a woman, kissing is so scary it looks nice but what if you do it wrong and you become a creep? I can talk with women just fine as friends like i talk with men but i cannot be romantic i really don't know how to flirt or be romantic at all. I feel i'm just gonna be another faceless man harassing women by being attracted to women.

I kinda want to hug, cuddle, kiss and hold hands, and do hobbies together, and learn about each other.

Then there's the fact that hurts my dating prospects is that i have been a NEET for 3 years, not because i want to! I wanna study and learn things but no school wants me. I hope the military will be fun when corona is over, so i can become a man and learn some fun and interesting things.

It seems like so much advice out there lacks the awareness of how women might feel if they did the things they suggest to do. I thought Dr Nerdlove was okayish until I read him talking about the “friendzone” and saw that he was accused of pulling some woman’s hair. Not only that, but so much advice goes into the really inane concept of “alphas and betas”. Any suggestions? Those aren’t my only complaints about most dating advice for men lol. If I kept talking about it I’d take up like 7 paragraphs.

I also would definitely prefer if it was written by women for men.

So there is this girl at work and she is so hot and I've been thinking about her a lot recently. She's kind of popular and even other male co-workers have a crush on her. I've been working here for a couple of months. Her thighs are like, so big and the problem is that I am shy as fucc. I work in produce and occasionally she comes over where I work. So I have a plan and here's what I think I'm going to say:

"Hey I've been meaning to talk to and I just want to say that I think you're pretty cute and I was wondering if I could have your number or or I could even give you mine. I know I don't talk too much but it's not because I'm not intrested I'm just kinda shy sometimes."

I think this would be a good thing to say but sometimes I just get so shy so I was just wondering if you guys had any tips on how to improve myself. How to make myself seem more attractive, or I maybe I could say something differently, or even how to not be shy.

I was going to talk to her yesterday but right as I was gonna talk to her one of her friends came out of nowhere and started talking to her so I could not intrude on the conversation but then she left to work somewhere else in the store. So now I am planning on asking her out tomorrow if she works, but im not sure.

Recently I've been trying to make conversation with other people to in order to overcome my shyness. I talked to another guy I work with and hes old man and I learned that he is 2 jobs and on the days where he is not working at the supermarket with me he is actually mowing lawns he says it's very hard work. He always says Hi to everyone when they show up in the morning he is very nice.

There's also this other guy there that I want to talk to because we used to be friends in middle school but I don't think he remembers me but I remember him so I think I could make a conversation with him too. Since we used to be friends or have an easy topic to talk about with him.

If you guys have any tips or criticisms I would be happy to hear them. Thank you.

You guys were pretty pessimistic last time i posted. Let's see if you guys are the same.

So I just turned 18 a month ago and I have not had any romantic interaction. Only a string of lead ons and misunderstandings. Right now i’m attending an all male college so i can attend med school in the future, but it feels like I effectively forfeited my love life. I by no means am anti social but I never got romance, i have some female friends but it feels like i’m just a therapist friend to them and nothing more. it feels like i’m just damned to be alone for another 4 years at least.

Obviously you should always be doing it, but what is the threshold for when you have done enough self improvement to be dateable?

Bored so why not... 20 m kinda shy

These things mostly happend in high school as i was around most people at the time. I dont leave the house too often these days.

Never had a girlfriend.

Maybe we could have a discussion on how gender dynamics plays a role in the dating environment? I am curious to see what you guys have to ask of me.

Say that I agree with most of the ideals that are discussed within this space. This community seems like a reasonable bunch of people which is why I decided to ask you.

These days thanks to lockdown i only really ever go out of my apartment to the forest to carve wood or to the outdoors gym since i can't go to the regular gym. Next to the outdoor gym there is a jogging track that people go to to jog, or walk their dog. Mostly old people, why is everyone so old? Anyway, i DO occasionally see women my age there, but it's quite rare, and 9/10 times they are with friends or boyfriend. Even if they'd be without it'd still feel creepy to approach someone out of nowhere when she's just there to jog. Feels creepy to approach in shop where you buy food or any other shop too for that matter. I don't go to bars since i don't drink, no job and no school wants me due to bad grades so i can't get a education either. Nowhere to meet women, or even men my age. I used to do martial arts, but it's mostly just men there, almost (30's) my own age too which is nice.

There's tinder but it keeps putting me in locations like 300km from me randomly... I do get matches but what do i do with matches? So i just don't bother saying much and just do 10 swipes in the morning for a ego boost.

I tried posting this on r/menslib and one of the moderators suggested posting it here , so here we go .

TLDR at the bottom.

Let me give some context . I discovered the redpill in mid to late 2019 when i was 17 and was "redpilled" and a "mgtow" for about 8 months till I saw their hate and hypocrisy . That was the moment i left it and since then i am a part of the r/exredpill community. I have recovered from the toxic ideas that the redpill tries to hammer into your brain. But 1 thing remained or rather was reinforced by it , and that is that i became more terrified by being in relationships .

I have never been in a relationship (mostly because i am a shy and introverted guy) but i would love to be in one . The problem is that i have read tons of articles and paragraphs about many different threats for me as a man to be in a relationship including that I would never be seen as a victim in case i am abused . I also fear that in case i might fall for paternity fraud in case i spent a significant amount with her during her pregnancy and would have to pay child support even if i am not the biological father.

Am i being paranoid ? Hateful ? Or are my actions somehow justified ? I appreciate all your answers , advice and help .

TLDR: 18 yo             No past relationships             Former redpilled and mgtow             An exredpill             Terrified of having a relationship due to 2 reasons              All help and advice is appreciated .

Here is the deal: me(m19) and my girlfriend(19) of 2 months (we've been seing each other for an aditional month and chatting on whatsapp for a couple of weeks while both in lockdown) have recently started experimenting sexually together. This relationship is the first serious one for both of us and both us are still virgins. We have a very respectful and communicative approach to it, however there is a problem: unlike me, she apperently didnt experment with herself while younger and does'nt really know how to guide me with pleasuring her. This week we talked about it again,and we agreed to reasearch about it online. I dont even know how to start. Can anyone help with guidance/resources in order to help me, and also her , understand the topic better? Thanks, looking forward for your reccomendations☺☺

Hey trolls, I got a date this Sunday with a really cute girl! Sadly though, all the dates I’ve managed to set up in the last two years or so have flaked on me, cancelling last-minute. I think it might be poor communication on my part or maybe I set the date for too long from the initial conversation, and the girl loses interest(in this case, Sunday is the only day that would work for her, so no choice there). So I want to know how to prevent this from happening so I can go on a date and have a good time. I guess one obvious answer is to just let them flake and move on, but I haven’t gone on a date since I was 16 because of this, and dating is important to me. I’m not asking for marriage you know, just to go on dates, I don’t think it’s a lot to ask. but I feel like i might be missing something. Thanks in advance you your help, trolls!

Update: Yep she cancelled.

As some of you may know, dating advice columnist Dr. Nerdlove has been accused, and he has admitted to sexual harassment/assault.

Now, as a lot of people have previously noticed from my post history, I have a tendency to obsess over being perceived as creepy. Full disclosure: I was recently diagnosed with OCD, and this was specifically seen as a trigger by my psychiatrist. One common piece of advice given to me here, and in other places is something along the lines of "if you stop when she doesn't show interest or back down as soon as she says she's not interested, you won't be seen as creepy." Now, it's getting hard to reconcile that with this. If we go by Dr. Nerdlove's account here, he made a move (albeit a move a bit more forward than I would've done), she didn't show interest, he stopped right then and there. She clearly found him creepy, to the point that it was seemingly traumatic for her. Furthermore, it was at a bar, a place a lot of people tell me approaching/flirting is acceptable. Now, I strongly suspect that there are more details to this story than either party has told us (Dr. Nerdlove himself has even implied more has happened, and his email doesn't add up with his testimony on his blog), is there more up-to-date advice on not being creepy given that thing?

What I'm writing about mostly applies to my [28m] interactions with women I'm potentially interested in non-platonically, but can be in general applied to anything.

So, for my whole life, I've been taught that women are being pestered by men. Not just taught that but saw it in the way men in my direct environment acted. Socialising in progressive circles, for the past 10 years I've heard stories from women around me about all the ways in which men's advances could be unwelcome. And so, when whenever I'm interested in someone, I first ask myself - "Could a display of this interest be considered unwelcome?" The thing is, I think I've become oversensitive, because I reached the point where nearly in all situations it feels like the answer to that is yes. And so, I disengage, giving them space.

I've been trying so hard to be good and harmless that I'm instinctually primed to look out for any sign that my presence or actions are not welcome, to the point where it became unhealthy. I'm sure I'm seeing signs of disinterest where there are none, and the end result is that I end up not advancing any relationships, whether they are platonic or romantic, out of the fear of accidentally pushing myself onto someone who is not interested in me.

This approach bleeds into pretty much every single situation in which I'd be likely to meet new people - A pub? Well, people come here to spend time with their friends, not to be bothered by strangers. An activity club? Well, people come her for this activity - if I show interest in a woman here will she feel less comfortable participating because there is this one guy who's interested in her romantically? Striking up conversations in a park or a library or a cafe is obviously out of question. Those are not contrived examples. They come from stories I've heard of women actually feeling uncomfortable about being approached in those settings. And yes, there are better and worse way to do the actual approaching, but their main grief was that it happened at all.

Now, on the other hand we're being constantly told that confidence is attractive and good. But what is confidence, really, if not a belief that what you are doing is indeed the right and good thing to do.

And so, it seems to me that to be "confident" I'll have to get comfortable with reaching a point where I'm going to consciously dismiss my overactive concerns about my interest bothering people I'm interested in. And, honestly, how could I ever be comfortable with doing something which is going to lead to being less considerate?

So yeah, here is my conundrum. I know it's probably the kind of thing one should talk to a therapist about but hey, I'm too broke for that lol

I originally posted this to r/menslib but had it rightfully taken down due to it being personal so I'm posting it here.

It's been discussed here often, we as men are expected to be the strong and confident while actually feeling isolated with little to no emotional support.

I am a man in my mid twenties who shares these feelings. I'm also a guy who prefers to be the dominant person in the relationship as it makes me feel strong and confident, but at the same time I feel alone and small when I'm not in a relationship and I lack that person to be truly close to. I feel incredibly conflicted when I have this need to be the strong dominant presence in a relationship but also have the needs and emotional vulnerability of any human. I don't know how to present myself as this thing I want to be when I don't feel it at all.

This is exacerbated when it comes to dating. I need to find someone who enjoy the opposite side of the equation, someone who enjoys giving themselves up to a dominant man. But I feel time and time again my strength and confidence weakening as I try to carry on under this very real lack of emotional support, this deep loneliness that outweighs my strength. I feel I push away the women looking for a dominant person when my need for emotional connection and honest vulnerability eventually outweigh my strength and power that I need to attract them.

Quick aside but it's also not easy to give off those machismo vibes without confirming to the icky stereotypical man archetype. I'm a genuinely sweet guy and I have a hard time staying stoic when I really just want to be validated and cared for because my self-esteem is crumbling.

I feel this can be said about most guys in the dating scene as most anybody wants to find a partner that is confident and strong in one way or another. I don't know how we can be strong yet so so vulnerable at the same time.

I love being the strong dominant man. How can I be that raw and passionate physical force while needing the soft and tender love and affection?

The two seem completely at odds with each other.

I posted here 10 months ago and I feel the need to reach out to this community and say something.

My last substantial relationship ended about 6 years ago. I decided to take some time off from dating afterwards and, while it was a good decision, my “dating muscles” atrophied. I moved across the country in February of last year for a job and I decided to hit the dating scene aggressively. I had nothing to lose and felt it would be good practice.

I probably went on around 15 first dates and was ghosted/stood up a handful of times but I was determined to at least be good at dating. A few of them resulted in relationships that lasted about a month or so but nothing substantial came of it.

I was using dating apps and, full disclosure, that’s not how I met the girl I’m dating but the effort I put in before we started dating has absolutely helped me.

Dating is a grind. And it can be pretty brutal but what I wanted to say was this:

I know it’s hard. And it can seem like you’re doing a lot of work for little or no payoff but I can promise you that if you stick with it you will be prepared when you need it most.

If you need anything, advice, distraction, terrible jokes, openers, pickup lines.. whatever.. message me. I gotchu.

Love you, mean it.

• /u/AEQVITAS_VERITAS

I’ve never been in a relationship. But there’s been a lot of girls with crushes on me. That sounds narcissistic but it’s true.

And the reason for that, I’m pretty sure, is because they project a certain type onto me.

They say that I look like a nice guy, that I have kind eyes or whatever. And they see me as a safe alternative. Someone who would support them and improve their lives. Someone that would drop anything I’m doing to help them achieve whatever they want to achieve. They think I’m some pure innocent person.

This has gotten to the point where three single moms have liked me. Some of which might have been predatory considering she was 23 and I was 17. I think they thought they could groom me into someone that wouldn’t leave them. Into whatever they liked.

And I don’t know how to stop that.

I’m not who they think I am. I am a selfish person. I would prioritize my dreams of becoming an artist over any relationship. I don’t want kids. I don’t want a serious relationship. I don’t want to get married. I don’t want to settle down. I’m 20, why would I want any of that?

I’m pretty tired of them thinking I’m some fix to their lives. That I’m the person to settle down with.

I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. But I want them to stop putting me in a weird pedestal.