This was taken from Helen Dagner's website from many years ago. It was also discussed recently in a post I added where Helen's old videos are reviewed at this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OCCK/comments/9qk201/chapter_135s_hd_archives_9_information/

https://i.redd.it/7npklr3214wd1.gif

For the ones that want to discredit Helen Dagner and her suspect.  It’s fully understandable you have very reason to.  Knowing the background of her story, the obscurity of it all and her personality combined, there is no other place to turn.  After all it’s very difficult to digest then to try to accept that any of it was real. The police as well have blown it off as nothing worth pursuing for many years.  With her multiple websites and countless videos with wild claims it became easy for the police to just dismiss especially after her nasty criticism toward them on the internet. It's that kind of thing that's hard to explain where it's one out of a million chance it's just one those stories that just can't be, therefore it can never be. Please try to reserve one fundamental thing in mind though as you read further.   

The Chris Busch side is very real and most things about it have some type of documentation trace showing a very disgusting and downright sick operation which was kept hidden from the public for decades.  They went thru great efforts and details to keep it all under wraps and some people probably got paid under the table to do so.  Now try to imagine if you can 'something' that could actually connect and provide a link to Helen Dagner suspect and Chris Busch.  After all they already lived in the same neighborhood but even then something further that would provide Chris Busch guilt to the OCCK murders and also something that gives credibility to Helen Dagner (of all people) that her suspect was involved with these murders as well.  If such an item did exist this would be something that Michigan authorities would never want to see it’s ugly head ever surface at all cost. Further heaven forbid, if the public ever thought there was even a possibility it would raise hell with the ranks.   Imagine the embarrassment and downright public humility that this would generate to anyone that was responsible for investigating the OCCK case.  It's just something unimaginable that no one would want to face this, there's not a big enough rock to crawl under.

Well wake up folks. This link or connection is very real and it’s the lost polygraph test from Georgia where some of the conclusions did leak through in the late Barry King’s FOIA papers and it’s very telling.  I will repeat, IT'S VERY TELLING! But it’s also very heavily redacted so it only tells part of the story.  So this should explain why Cathy Broad (Tim’s sister) has NOT been able to ever get anymore results or even a trace of this polygraph test although she has tried for years now.  What is even more hard to believe is that even the original FOIA papers themselves before the reacted procedure was made cannot be found.  Or at least in theory that is the case so they say. Imagine a great flood in the storage area in such a way where it actually wiped off the print right from underneath the redacted marks themselves. It kind of did this in a way. I guess just about any excuse will work for the powers to be when it comes down to it. To think that we still have OCCK authors today that want to label it a 'rabbit hole' not worth pursuing while looking at some useless bloody rope pics for the upteenth time pretending it has some significance to the case. I guess we can keep looking at that old photo hoping some clue will jump out at us. Is there a possibility that these bloody ropes is just a distraction 'side show' used to get attention away from what really should be looked at? Because the very fact that someone has fed wrong information about this polygraph test to the public that's simply not true for years now and should be held accountable for misinformation. Make special note that Garry Gray & Cory Williams were not around as they already left Georgia when this polygraph test was conducted. So they weren't even there or anyone from Michigan for that matter. Basically they already questioned the suspect days beforehand so in a sense their ass was covered for the record books of investigating him. Although much of the questioning they conducted was very lame (Primarily driven by Garry Gray questions) and basic hand waving to clear him from what was documented from the FOIA papers. Not really what you call aggressive investigative work by any means. "We will get you thru this sir, we will get you cleared immediately" approach like their minds were already set before they even got started or walked into the place. Since neither officer was present at the actual polygraph test, they cannot dispute the conclusions although they will try. Furthermore since there was never any type of documentation of a follow up to the documented conclusions, they further can't dispute it either. The point is an author can come around and play detective all they want and label rabbit holes on suspects but there is a huge unknown in regards to this polygraph and even the cops that worked on the case really have no basis to judge anything since they were not present during the test and all record trace of the test has vanished. The public deserves an explanation over this matter and so does Cathy Broad for trying so hard to get to the bottom of this. Also base on Marney's book (All based on Cory's viewpoint) the officers were arguing over Helen Dagner of all things during the trip to Georgia which kind of adds irony to the whole thing when it comes down to it. That's the point that should be taken by anyone reading this that the two from Georgia that conducted and observed the polygraph were making their professional judgment on the polygraph test itself and the reaction from the suspect. They were not influenced by Helen Dagner and probably don't even know who she was so her curse didn't cause any effect on them but still this test was completely discarded because someone from Michigan didn't like the outcome. It was documented in the FOIA papers that a data DVD package was prepared for them detailing the polygraph testing results. Since the two Michigan officers were not there when it took place perhaps this was done for that reason. Hard to say if it was ever viewed by anyone as there is no documented trace of it now. Like everything else this seems to have disappeared. So keep an eye for it as it might show up at someone's garage sale someday like some of senior Robertson's OCCK notes surfaced from nowhere although they were quite useless regardless.

There is a chance and a very good one at that, that this polygraph has the potential that could be the eye opener of solving this case once and for all. To top it, the very fact that a great effort was made by someone from the inside to bury any trace of it speaks volumes on it’s very own.  In fact the very fact that the actual record traces completely become missing since the release of the FOIA papers seems to be even more telling than the polygraph itself!!! It's a good thing there are multiple copies of the FOIA papers floating around otherwise this would be denied completely although it kind of has anyway. It screams COVER UP from the highest mountain tops!!!

So to summarize this scenario if you can handle it. They were already covering up for Busch and his activities in fact a whole history of it let alone a possible OCCK involvement but now years later an actual link to Helen Dagner and her story of all people. That is a Double Whammy Zinger if there ever was one as the Helen Dagner curse is now hanging over this. To top it further off even more, some of this got leaked thru to Barry King's FOIA papers by accident. Holy Crap! Emergency - Clear all decks! Big time panic. Go wonder why every little trace of this polygraph test has disappeared all of a sudden from all files. The only one with a trace of it is the late Barry King himself which was still alive when huge stacks of FOIA papers were received by him. Unfortunately the portion that has conclusions to this lost polygraph test in it wasn't discovered until many years later. Partially because it was in a different section hardly reviewed by anyone. So it wasn't actually uncovered until long after everything got buried and long time forgotten, even Helen Dagner never knew about this one.

Imagine if an author came along that was on the ball or even had any balls for that matter or better yet, the news had picked up on this. That would be a gotcha moment like maybe the public would want some answers and actually refer to a document and inquire where the damn thing went!

The bottom line is this, as you read the snip taken right out of the FOIA papers. The polygrapher and his boss who observed the test wrote some very damning conclusions over this suspect. Keep in mind that there was no follow up, no further explanation, just complete silence and a wall of avoidance over this matter for many years now. Busch being the number one suspect to this crime that has not been completely solved and here we are with someone that practically painted the image to these two that observed the test that he knew Busch and was involved with these murders but was further ignored by Michigan authorities. How can anyone from any type of law enforcement duty ignore this even today? I guess we can continue to look the other way and just ignore it. When Cory is asked about Helen Dagner and her suspect, he has his routine response but he seems to really struggle when trying to explain the lost polygraph test from Georgia. Ask him sometime if you get a chance it comes with a mixture of avoidance and bullshit. Although most of the blame on this seems to be Garry Gray. The very problem is that because there is so much cover up history wrapped around Busch and Fox Island. It's so easy to just tuck the Helen Dagner story under another cover up blanket as well and just claim yeah we investigated him and there is nothing. So let's not go there anymore please. Of course the remains of this polygraph test tells a different story completely and there's very likely a lot more holding the bag to it if one was to go after it. There's a further problem here because it's actually a part of the FOIA papers received from Barry King so it is considered a government document although some will deny it's existence. It's horseshit which ever angle you look at it and injustice and disregard to the truth.

A portion and most telling of the scanned FOIA page discussed is shown and highlighted below. Referred to page reference BLK 02868.

Except taken right from the document

https://preview.redd.it/bmbbqmqgrbwd1.jpg?width=574&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8070b8ffec51a59b1aa8b897d5ac641cc100852

As you look at the two images above, try to visualize taking out the side burns on the sketch around the cheeks. If you can do this, it makes the sketch even a closer match to the photo on the right as the face widens. The OCCK witness Doug Wilson sketch under hypnosis is even a closer match yet. (With no sideburns) Just like witness Polly also described of him of no apparent side burns embedded in her memory when her suspect was seen at the pharmacy and going around her neighborhood afterwards. Doug Wilson sketch under hypnosis with John Hastings line up shown here. https://www.reddit.com/r/OCCK/comments/1g9s2h7/doug_wilson_sketch_line_up_john_h/#lightbox

https://i.redd.it/flggpjix4sxd1.gif

work

What's the deal with these bloody ropes and OCCK? I don't understand why we keep going back to the Busch murder/suicide scene with the so called bloody ropes. I understand it sells books and surely the new book that just came out has high res graphics trying to illustrate it in more detail by adding red to the photo. (Photoshop trickery at it's finest! ) Are there any people out there that study criminology and this case that can tell me the connection? My understanding was that the OCCK 2 boy victims were bond with something but most likely nylons or phone cord or such. Certainly nothing that caused any scars but more like bruises and burns on the skin surface from the pressure. From what I can tell from the autopsy reports they also don't indicate any wounds that would draw blood like that however they state impressions from being bond. It states ropes or cord impression in one place that implies they can't say for sure what they were bond with. On Marks autopsy it does state brown marks around the ankles and wrists without any further indication what it was. Nylon material may produce brown marks and burns. If there was really blood drawn like that from rope wounds, I think it would have been quite obvious to the examiners and would have been specific in their reports like the word 'scars' or 'blood marks' which doesn't seem to be the case. As far as Mark the only wound that appears to draw blood was a head wound which might have been done during transporting. So what detective work or lack of has caused so much attention to these ropes which are most likely stained from something other than blood? Maybe I'm missing something so go ahead and explain what that would be.

It's extra sad that the people that want to find some type of closure to this case have to continuously look at some ropes stained with something that seems to have nothing to do with the case. While other things are not investigated and authors shrug off as rabbit holes. If it's BS it should be called out as BS!!! Let's see some evidence that lines up with the evidence. It's been going on over a decade and a half now with these bloody ropes. How many more books are going to cover it when there's really nothing to cover? I guess we can keep pretending there is something to this although there really isn't.

That could explain why there seems to be so much corruption in this case.

Cathy Broad, the sister of Tim King, the last OCCK victim, posted on her blog yesterday:

The book is groundbreaking in its revelation of a level of corruption in the OCCK investigation, not previously understood, through the exhaustive analysis of case documents and the media reporting at the time.

I urge you to read this compelling, riveting, disturbing and well-documented book.

The site guardedbyjackals.com includes a preview of the first 9 chapters of the book. It is worth a read if you have any interest in this case.

Here is a list of material published by Sheldon's Acolyte Press.

There are some that stand out...

The one that bothers me the most is Kim, My Beloved. The boy's name is "Kim" and the cover art gave me chills.

But there are plenty of rabbit holes to go down once you get on the site. Connections between others in The Netherlands who also had direct ties to Michigan, NY, CA, etc., and Sheldon. It may have been talked about before, but there were a lot of names I had not heard before. The one that really shows direct ties to Sheldon while he was in MI, NY and The Netherlands. His name is Donald Mader.

There's just a lot to go through on the site..

• 1989 | Kim, my beloved / Jens Eisenhardt ; transl. Stephen W. Foster | ISBN: 90-6971-022-6

Acolyte Press - NewgonWiki (archive.org)

Text of Donald Mader's Autobiography - NewgonWiki (archive.org)

Donald Mader - NewgonWiki (yesmap.net)

On my podcast Citizen Detective, our team will be exploring this case live in a multi part episode. We would love to have participation from anyone here that's interested to get your theories, questions, share ideas, etc
Our team includes a criminologist, a DNA expert, a retired homicide detective. We hope to have guests on including Geoprofiling and Polygraph experts.

We record the first part live on April 2nd at 9PM Eastern and would love to have you participate.
Info to join us live is contained here in the 'About the show' section.

hi. i’m desperately trying to watch the documentary but i live in italy and it’s no longer available here on any streaming service. does anyone have a link or the show downloaded an could send it to me?

Does anyone know the name of the pastor at the church during the time that both Jill and Tim's families were attending the church?

Parish History - Holy Name Catholic Church - Birmingham, MI (hnchurch.org)

I really am interested in finding out the staff during the 70's. I have some information that I want to check into and I can't find any names of former staff, only current. I have emailed the current Parish Admin and the Deacon, so hopefully they can supply the information if no one else has it. TIA.

I don't know what can be said or not. A long time ago, I ran into someone who said the hair that was found was a dogs hair. and if they dug in the front yard they would find the remains of the dog. Also someone else said, that the MOB found out who it was and ended them... has anyone heard similar?

Sourcce - 29 Jun 1979, Page 3 - Detroit Free Press at Newspapers.com

Authorities investigate the suffocation murder of a 4 year old boy whose body was found in Clinton Twp. His remains were found at the corner of Clinton River Road and Kerner Road.

It all sounds very familiar, doesn't it? George was young - only 4 and was missing for only a few hours. Not days or weeks like OCCK victims.

There is little to no contemporary information available on his case.

Anyone else familiar with Kennedy's long unsolved case?

There appears to have been an *ahem* kerfluffle with this sub, but this sub is back open and public, and ready to go.

We have added additional moderators and are looking to get fresh content in the near future.

Hello everyone - this community is in need of a few new mods and you can use the comments on this post to volunteer and let us know why you’d like to be a mod.

Please use at least 3 sentences to explain why you’d like to be a mod and what moderation experience you have (it’s okay if you don’t have any! But do tell us why you believe you’d be able to help here)

Here is a link to his blog OCCK - A father's story

Godspeed Mr. King

In early February 1977, 10 year old Valerie Bishop of Detroit was murdered while walking home from the grocery. She was struck in the side of the head with something (plank or a brick) which fractured her skull. Her killer then sexually assaulted her, stabbed her in the abdomen and buried her small body in a snowbank.

While there was an arrest in the case, a 30 year old former Detroit cop who'd left the force years earlier, her case remains open and unsolved.

Another child murder, right in the middle of the chaos, and no one even remembers her name.

http://www.dttspodcast.com/victims/valerie-bishop/

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/valerie-bishop-10-detroit-2-february-1977.419522/

Listening to the audiobook of The Kill Jar and I'm close to the end. Was anyone else frustrated by his lack of initiative at times? For example, why did he not do any legwork to verify ANY parts of "Sebastian's" story? At least try to look up some death records, verify that the other Sebastian was actually hit by a car, something.

Does anyone else find it interesting that there were similar theories of a child pornography ring in the ATL child murders that were happening during the same time frame? In ATL they often struggled to reconcile why both boys and girls were abducted and murdered and generally assumed that they were likely separate killings. But a pornography ring would be interested in getting pornographic material from both male and female children, regardless of a specific pedophile’s preference. Not saying they could be directly linked, but just wondering if there is some pattern in the bigger picture. In the Children of the Snow doc, it was mentioned that there were nationwide pedophile associations that were communicating via newsletters in somewhat of a subscription fashion. It would be interesting to know if anyone suspected to be involved in the ATL pornography ring had a connection to the same association of pedophiles.

I just watched the documentary on Hulu last night. It just has me thinking. So allegedly, Christopher Busch, who was one of the accused, was H Lee Busch’s son. Knowing that H Lee Busch was a higher up at General Motors, what does that say to us? Well, my imagination is running wild, but one of the other accused suspects is Arch Sloan. That name sounds familiar. The Sloan Museum in flint. The Sloan family. Alfred Sloan, the former CEO of General Motors. Perhaps there is a relation between Alfred Sloan and Arch Sloan? Just like there was with H Lee Busch and Christopher Busch? Maybe it’s not just those families. Maybe this is a part of a web that is much bigger. These families are wealthy, they are powerful. Not only that, they’re business partners, and there must be other business partners out there right? It’s hard to refute that there must be other families like this out there. Maybe GM is just a small part of a ring of pedophilia. Is there any chance it doesn’t end there? I’m really just intrigued by all of this. It makes me think the rumors of grooming and pedophilia in the entertainment industry(hollywood) are true. Does anyone have any thoughts?

I’m not trying to offend anyone or make up accusations, I just wanted to know if anyone else may have made these connections. If these connections are accurate, then I think we are going to need a much bigger investigation not only into these families but into many corporations like GM. Could this be linked in some way to the ring of pedophilia that recently ended at MSU? Could Larry Nassar have information on this? I know there was an investigation at MSU after the Nassar case, but how do we know that investigation wasn’t a front? Is the pedophilia industry in more places than we think?

Let me know if you have any input, like I said, my goal is not to trigger people, my goal is to find more information. Hope you guys are having a great week!

I just want to hear what people think on this. Officially there wasn’t any sign of sexual assault for Jill and Christine. However on the Already Gone podcast only Jill and Christine were autopsied by the coroner. Evidently this coroner said that he found semen in Christine but when the slides were examined by others they couldn’t detect any trace of semen. Now having been bathed the finding of no semen isn’t peculiar. What is peculiar is that he said he found semen in her. Does this mean that he accidentally slipped up and revealed that he knew something more? Also it should be noted that this coroner is also the one that did the autopsy on Chris Busch.

In THE KILL JAR, Appelman says that Greg Green drew pictures compulsively since childhood. I thought Appelman meant to imply that Green drew the picture (possibly of Mark Stebbins) found tacked to the wall in Chris Busch's bedroom. Has this group already discussed this possibility?

I just finished watching Children of the Snow. It was very well-done, and, I thought, extremely thorough. However, I do have two questions.

1. I may be getting this wrong, but it stated that Gregory Green confessed on his death bed to his lover that he was involved in all four killings. However, earlier, it states that Chris Busch was released from jail and Timmy was taken a week later. But Green wasn't able to post bond and was still in jail. How could he have been involved with Timmy's murder?

2. Where is Chris Busch's family today? Wasn't he one of four siblings? Has anyone ever tried to interview them?

​

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Thanks.

Do we think there is any possible connection between the trafficking ring on fox island and the trafficking ring that Jeffrey Epstein had? Think about it, rings like this don't just die. It is suspected that there were many important people, and government officials in the ring in the 60s and 70s. As we gain new politicians and important figures they could have entered the ring.

Posting this here because they didn't create a playlist on their youtube channel and the videos were shuffled in with many other videos. This should help people be more accesible to all 5 chapters. If your on other social medias related to this I ask you share there as well.

Chapter 1 https://youtu.be/pIM2vfGEnRc

Chapter 2 https://youtu.be/7LZlHKUaN0M

Chapter 3 https://youtu.be/yAwy09ojSZs

Chapter 4 https://youtu.be/HUVl1suKAB4

Chapter 5 https://youtu.be/7yJ9tzeaB6Q

I was listening to the Shattered podcast, whose season 3 was about OCCK, in the last episode they mentioned suspects being cleared by DNA, I had never heard that before, and know that it just means the evidence DNA doesn't match, not that they weren't involved.
I wrote down the list, as I havent seen it elsewhere, just thought it is food for thought and worth sharing, some of the names I know, others I am unaware of, what do you all know? (edited for spelling of one of the suspects)

​

Smith (not sure who that is)

David Norberg

Warzecka (may be spelled wrong, was he the priest?)
Lawson

McRay (???)

Ted Lamborgine

Moore

Grant (???)

Lankey (???)

Hastings (was that Helen's suspect?)

Bowman (was this the hockey or baseball coach?)

Gregory Greene

Christopher Busch

Ted Miller (???)

Vince Gunnels

Tazelaar (???)

Arch Sloan

Crosby (???)

https://www.gaylordfuneralhome.com/notices/HelenL-Dagner

This appears to be Helen Dagner (rest in peace), the original pre-internet sleuth of this case. Appelman's Kill Jar states Helen's late husband was Wally from Rogers City, which matches the obit, though he did say there were internet rumors this was not her real name and introduced her as "Helen" in quotes in his book. So this is the HD of this case, right?

The various forums associated with Helen Dagner are likely my first entree into OCCK beyond the print and TV media of Metro Detroit. Indeed, I see there is a 137 chapter posting of her archives on this subreddit!

What are the positive and negative aspects of her involvement in the case?

NEGATIVE

1. She was singularly focused on one suspect (which makes sense given the Alpena Big Boy origins of her interest), which seemed to lead to the dismissal of all other case theories.
2. First impressions of most people of her is likely that she was a kook, and this perception likely could be used to paint others interested in the case with the same brush.
3. I could never keep up with the interpersonal vitriol between her, and her allies and opponents, and the sock pockets - I was just looking for interesting new information but it was mostly drama on the forums.
4. She is likely patient zero of all conspiracy theories of the case.
5. She likely contributed to the antagonism and mistrust between the public and law enforcement early on about this case.

POSITIVE

1. She posted a lot of archival items from newspapers, broadcasts, and things the public sent to her that are now accessible on the internet.
2. She may have helped to keep the case alive in the public's mind from the early 1990's to the mid 2000's when the investigation seemed to be restarted and new leads being publicized.
3. Beyond obviously wanting to be known as the preeminent "expert" on the case, she did appear to be genuinely concerned about the victims.
4. Her YouTube channel has some decent educational aspects and is far superior than her other online resources - is likely the easiest way for new individuals to learn about the case.