I'm currently using the Luminette 3 glasses (like a lot of people here seem to) but I find it very uncomfortable to wear for a prolonged period of time. So I thought about trying their Drive device which would allow me to clip it on my monitor for the majority of the day while I work. Any experience or thoughts?

DST has given me a 1 day reprieve 😀

*Only works if you are on a 25 hour schedule and not in Arizona

I've never gotten a diagnosis, but pretty much been dealing with >24 sleep cycle since my teenage years, and I can function relatively ok with it - with my hours shifting through a full 24 hour cycle once every couple of weeks or a month.

The crunch period where I'm asleep exactly when everyone else is awake (leaving me with little in the way of time to spare), is a real problem though - and I try to skip past that as fast as possible - but sometimes get stuck at those awkward hours for a while.

What reliable methods do people use, if they need to shift their hours forward a good chunk, without this rebounding on them later and pulling hours back to where they were?

my sleep cycle lasts around 28 hours, maybe slightly longer. my cycle used to be predictable, then i went to an event at the beginning of the month which required a change of schedule in order to make it and ever since then my sleep has been even more messed up. it hasn't really returned to that rhythm and i think it's become slightly longer than 28. i'm aware most people with n24 seem to only have 25-26 hour schedules. i used to be that way, but slowly it's just gotten longer and longer. it feels like no matter how long i sleep it's never enough, i always hit the snooze button and go back to sleep for another 10 minutes and sometimes end up repeating that cycle 5 or 6 times. i need to be able to manage all this but i'm worried all the standard treatments won't work on me because of how severe it is for me. i read on this sub a couple people managed to get it under control by sleeping less at night and taking naps in the afternoon (like siesta), but i don't know if that will actually work for me. please, anyone with a cycle this long who's managed to deal with it, how did you do it? any advice will be appreciated.

I dont have adhd. Or if I do im not diagnosed.

They believe that ambien can "force" a normal cycle. Im afraid that I'll maintain a normal cycle (if i do at all) at the cost of my health. Like its not far from taking coke and tranquilizers.

My parents see me adapting to my sleep as "missing out on life", which is fine for them to worry about. Even with modafinil, id rather not dose myself for important events just to be a psuedo zombie. I dont want to imagine I can keep a normal life if its not in the cards, ya know? I also dont want to add addiction to ambien on top of my present issues.

What do you make of it?

So a few weeks back, I was put on guanfacine (a med that treats ADHD) by my new psychiatrist. Usually I would have been at least halfway through a cycle by now. But I’ve actually stayed relatively steady since I started the med. I don’t know if it’s the sleepiness side effect or maybe my probable undiagnosed ADHD was connected to my N24, but this could potentially be a treatment for some of us. I don’t wanna get too excited yet though. We’ll see how long this lasts I suppose.

For me its forgetting I have to get to pharmacy by 430pm when I wake up at like 3pm.

Snooze Science was established to enhance the sleep quality of everyday individuals. Central to our mission is recognizing the unique nature of each person's sleep patterns. We aim to revolutionize traditional sleep schedules and provide support for those experiencing sleep disorders or difficulties. As a new start up we are developing our first product which will be a sleep application. 

We are currently pre-revenue and currently applying for a grant. Please note that this position is contingent upon the awarding of a grant. The project is anticipated to begin in March 2025, with the earliest notification of grant approval expected in February. The jobs have been tailored to meet the project's specifications, which will span one year. These positions are full-time and entirely remote. Before the project's conclusion, Snooze Science will formalize the roles, involving all employees in this process with the aim of retaining as many team members as possible. 

Application Deadline: October 20, 2024 Midnight

Snoozescience.co.uk/careers

My son has had sleep issues since he was a toddler. It started out as just not falling asleep before 12 am and over the years into adolescence, we began to see his sleep go around the clock. He takes a stimulant and Wellbutrin as he is prone to anxiety, and on the weeks where he is sleeping well, attendance is much better. On the weeks sleep is poor, so Is attendance. Meds to help with sleep either do nothing or make him groggy and getting him to track sleep or have strict sleep hygiene is a bit of a nightmare. He was diagnosed with Circadian Rhythm Sleep Disorder, delayed sleep phase type

I've got a google nest display that has sleep tracking capabilities, but the data is pretty awkward to access. So I made a discord bot that allows my trusted friends to know at which point of my sleep cycle i am in! (Nocturnal/Normal)

Never posted on here before, hi. I wanted to know how some of you manage eating? My situation is complicated by the fact I have anorexia, I have for years, and I want to get better but the main thing stopping me is the fact I have no idea what to do. I'm free-running (only thing that makes me not insanely depressed + nothing I have tried to stop it works anyway) and all the advice on eating disorder recovery is about normality and eating normal meals at normal times with other people which is physically impossible for me like 80% of the time. I can't just eat when I'm hungry because A: my hunger is completely messed up and B: my mind no longer sees hunger as something that triggers me to eat, if that makes sense. I'm not asking for actual recovery advice here, I kind of know what to do for the mental side of it, but if anyone could tell me how they usually eat? When and how do you know when it's time to eat? Etc etc, I do not know how to eat anymore lmao and what everyone else does just will not work for me.

I am self diagnosed, but cannot sleep the same times any day. Today I slept from 8pm to 10pm and awake now still at 5am. And will try to force myself to sleep with drugs to make it to a doctor tomorrow for something unrelated. I go to college full time, and have found ways to self accommodate with online classes and afternoon times in persons. Generally if something happens after noon I can get to it.

How many times I've been told I need to force myself to sleep or wake up at a certain time is astounding. The number of times I've been made to feel worthless or like a drug addict is laughable. Ive never had a hard drug problem, but the social stigma for having this disorder is impossible to work with. Dark circle out of control since childhood. I know this disorder is likely to send me to an early grave, but the level of executive dysfunction I have makes me want to take that decision into my own hands at low points.

In my 20s I lived alone, and kept weird hours shamelessly. It honestly never really occured to me how fucked up my schedule was. I assumed most young people were like that. But in my 30s it's absolutely debilitating.

I'm afraid to take Ambien, as I'd probably try to drive or say something crazy to my partner. Worst part about all of it is I am a lucid dreamer. I absolutely love sleeping and going to the dreamscape. But if I can't fall asleep I'm in this horrible meditative, in-between fully aware that I'm fucked for whatever is going on tomorrow. Knowing I have something to do the next day is now a trigger for a sleepness night guaranteed.

Ah and then Covid. The loss of 24 hour businesses (and all day breakfast at McDs), that was a real gut punch. Although I've found a breakfast burrito place that serves breakfast literally all day and doesn't taste like old shit.

Thanks for letting me rant, just found out there's a word for this disorder other than lazy piece of shit.

Hey! I got my diagnosis for n24 a few months ago! And I’m very very happy about it, I’ve struggled with sleep since birth and developed this rhythms after a harsh autistic ‘crash’ when i was 12, not been able to go back to a normal cycle since. It feels so freeing yet so devastating to have this diagnosis, to think I will most likely never meet anyone that can relate to my/our experiences with sleep face to face in my entire lifetime feels very lonely.

But I am glad to be believed, I feel very validated that my struggle that felt invisible was seen and diagnosed. I am sad I will live with it for the rest of my lifetime but at least I wasn’t just called ‘lazy’ by a doctor again for trying to get a diagnosis. Yipee!

Idk if it’s because I’m unemployed, but my schedule has slowly shifted and this is the latest it’s ever been. This schedule is completely inconvenient for my life because a lot of businesses I rely on (ex: gyms) close by 6pm or 7pm, I don’t want this schedule anymore, and I’m not sure if my body will let me wake up later than 5:30pm if I try chronotherapy. Idk what to do, I’m worried I’m stuck in this terrible schedule.

Hi everyone I am a previously long time sufferer of N24 and I am posting to say I have been six months without N24 and have had a steady sleep schedule since — there is more to write but I wanted to get the news here before more time elapsed — my fast was a total fast of five days (no food, water, medications, or supplements) which I believe allows the gut (and therefore whole body through the gut-brain axis) to completely rest and repair , which sort of “factory reset” itself. I believe this did the trick in resetting my circadian rhythm. There are older posts about fasting curing N24 which I believe can be found either in this subreddit or r/fasting — you do not have to try a total five day fast on your first shot but if you haven’t yet, see what extended fasts can do for you. Best of luck to everyone

I've tried multiple times to create a sleep log to help reach a formal diagnosis myself, but I tend to forget about it before I have a sufficient enough length of time recorded. Does anyone know if there's an app that could somehow record an iPhone's screen time to be extrapolated into a sleep log? I pick up my phone basically first thing when I wake up and am on it right before I go to sleep, so it'd hopefully create an accurate log if there were some way to check when the screen time turns on and off - most of the sleep apps I've checked do unwanted things like record you while you sleep, or require a manual sleep/wake to be recorded which I cannot remind myself to do. Thanks in advance if anyone can help!

There aren't many helplines open at night. That's when I could use the help! Most of them are targeted at youth, so I'm happy that's available, but yeah. 988 gets old and it's a coin flip. RAINN is okay. I haven't tried SAMSHA.

Where do you go for support at night?

Hi, just started ADHD meds a few weeks ago and I don’t take them that regularly maybe 2-3 times a week, But on the days I do take my meds, I completely crash after 14-16 hours, corresponding to if my body needs 10-8 hours that day (I use no alarms and log)

Which would sound nice? Like,,, textbook that would be an exact 24 hour day? But I am still on a 26 hour body clock, my body is just completely exhausted, in ‘I need my bed’ modus, without ANY ability to sleep for the 2 extra hours before I can reach sleep mode & my doctor has no advice to give me because none of her usual adhd clients deal with this, bc they don’t have a different body clock. Ao I just end up laying in bed unable to do anything, even scroll social media, I just lie flat on my stomach with my sleeping mask on for 2 hours straight, it’s getting Kind of unbearable

In a way I’m not really looking for advice, moreso checking if someone else is dealing with this but if you’ve dealt with this exact it would be very nice to hear that experience!!

In my case it helps with sleep initiation and does nothing for sleep timing, I take 1mg 2 hours before bed time and move it forward an hour a day. I've tried from 1-10mg doses and various timings and found anything above 1mg has no extra effect.

What has been your experience with it?

Also if you have tried any of the prescription melatonin agonists it would be interesting to hear your comparison to regular melatonin.

Incoming unnecessarily long post, skip to the end for TL;DR

I turned 30 last year and decided it was time I finally try to do something about my sleeping disorder. I've been dealing with N24 since I was a teenager (possibly much earlier) but never actually bothered to go to a doctor. I only discovered what N24 was maybe 5 years ago, -excitedly shouting "I HAVE THAT" upon discovery, however, once I learned that there wasn't an actual cure, I basically resigned myself to living a free running lifestyle, -not even bothering to go to a doctor to get an official diagnosis.

After finding this subreddit during the pandemic, I finally ended up going to a sleep clinic here in Toronto last year, and meeting with one of the doctors. I knew there wasn't a simple cure/medication that they could give me to make everything better, but I figured an official diagnoses from a doctor would at least be useful in my personal life (Like most reading this, I had to deal with a lot of people who wouldn't take my sleep disorder seriously, and would give me a lot of shit for my constantly messed up sleep schedule)

At the Sleep Clinic I had a couple appointments with the psychiatrist there who ran a bunch of different tests (bloodwork, had me sleep at the clinic overnight, ect.) and also asked me to document my sleep patterns over 6 weeks. After looking at the results of my sleep log charts, he said "Yeah, this looks like N24"
He then gave me a treatment plan/guideline, -wanting me to try to entrain myself through melatonin, and light therapy. I told him that I'd tried melatonin in the past, and while it did help me fall asleep at a specific time consistently, it also just made me feel groggy throughout the day. He informed me that melatonin isn't supposed to make you groggy, and that if I was feeling groggy, then the more likely culprit is some sort of deficiency in my body.

Anyways, so I try his regiment, taking 0.25 grams of melatonin around 8pm, falling asleep usually by 11pm, waking up around 8am, and then exposing myself to some sunlight pretty much right away for 30-60 mins. I do this for about 2 weeks, and as I expected, I start experiencing that feeling of grogginess. Waking up at the same time every morning began getting harder and harder. I'd feel super tired throughout the day, sometimes needing to lie down and rest for a bit. It sucked, I felt like I only had access to 60% of my usual energy supply, but yea, I still powered through.

Shortly after, I made a breakthrough. I remembered what the sleep clinic doctor said about a possible deficiency being the cause of the grogginess, and so I speculated about what it (the deficiency) could have been. My bloodwork hadn't come back at that point but I remembered after he first diagnosed me with N24, he made an offhand comment about how I "must spend so much money monthly on Vitamin D". At the time I didn't think much of it. At that point, I was taking 1 Vitamin D pill a day (1000 ICU) which I thought was the average amount. I wondered if maybe that was what my body was deficient in. I started googling what dosage the average person would take, and ended up learning that (some) people who worked night shift claimed to take around 4000 ICU a day. So yeah, I thought "Screw it, lemme try that too"
I increased my daily dosage from 1000 icu to 4000 icu (while continuing to take melatonin every night), and lo and behold after a week, I could feel my energy returning to me. I didn’t feel 100% energized as I would when I was free running, but I was 80-85% of the way there, which still felt like a miracle. I was consistently waking up and going to bed at the same time every day, and I didn't feel tired at all throughout the day. It was the strangest feeling. For the first time in my adult life, I was living at the same time as the rest of the world (for more than a week or two at a time)

It's been over a year now, and I'm still successfully entrained. My life's totally changed. My social life has improved, I was able to hold down a job, and overall, I've been able to live life much more comfortably and freely without N24 getting in the way. For the first time since graduating high school, the future seems bright again.  I'm still taking 0.25mg of Melatonin, and now take 5000iu of Vitamin D every day. I don't bother with the light therapy anymore, but I just make sure that I'm not sitting around in a dimly lit room in the mornings. Also, I occasionally take an L-Theanine supplement before bed. I have social anxiety, so sometimes after a night out with friends (or people in general), I struggle to fall asleep cause it feels like my brain becomes full of thoughts and adreneline. The L-Theanine helps me calm down, and allows me to fall asleep at my usual time, and stay asleep for the whole night, so I wake up feeling well-rested.

I know this won’t work for everyone since Melatonin doesn't work for a lot of people, or they might have a different deficiency besides Vitamin D (definitely recommend getting blood work done to check) but I figured I might as well post this anyway in case it might help someone else out as well. Like I mentioned before, I didn’t even realize a solution as simple as this was even possible for me, so I didn’t even bother going to a doctor, but I’m really glad I did. I wish I would have done so sooner, -maybe I’d be in a much different position in life, but there’s no point dwelling on it. Just have to make up for lost time and be grateful that I was able to find a solution at all.

Anyway, thanks for reading, and sorry for the long post. If there are any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

TL;DR

I was diagnosed with N24 by a doctor, who told me to take melatonin to try to entrain myself. I told him I'd tried melatonin in the past, and while it did help me fall asleep at a specific time consistently, it also just made me feel groggy throughout the day. He informed me that melatonin isn't supposed to make you groggy, and that if I was feeling groggy, then the more likely culprit is some sort of deficiency in my body. I realized that my body was probably low in Vitamin D, so I started taking melatonin again and also increased my daily dosage of Vitamin D from 1000iu to 5000iu, and then (within a week) the grogginess I felt from the melatonin almost completely went away. Because of that, I was then able to maintain a normal lifestyle, -waking up, and going to bed at the same time everyday.
I've been entrained for over a year now.

My bedtime has slowly gone from 1am to 8am over the course of 11 months, with a lot of work intermittently to keep it from getting later and later (with the help of melatonin to go to bed earlier), but I’m unemployed and feel that there’s no alternative right now than to just free run to see if I can go around the clock to a more “normal” bedtime. Does anyone have experience with this? In the past, moving my bedtime too fast doesn’t work because my body is used to getting up around the same time (ex: I would still wake up at 3pm-4pm even after staying up till 12pm). I may try pushing forward ~1/2 an hour a day, but that seems slow and I want to minimize the time I’m waking up at nighttime (I’m currently waking up around 4-4:30pm)

Sorry if this has been asked before. I'm curious if anyone has experience or information regarding this.

Following the survey from https://old.reddit.com/r/N24/comments/osdfhv/are_you_employed/ I was surprised to find that more men are affected by non-24 than women.

More studies point toward this direction:

Clinical Analyses of Sighted Patients with Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Syndrome: A Study of 57 Consecutively Diagnosed Cases, 2005 https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/28/8/945/2708203

The patient cohort included 41 (72%) men and 16 (28%) women. The onset of non–24-hour sleep-wake syndrome had occurred during the teenage years in 63% of the cohort, and the mean ( ± SD) period of the sleep-wake cycle was 24.9 ± 0.4 hours (range 24.4–26.5 hours).

Non-24 Hour Sleep Wake Syndrome: A Cohort Analysis, 2020 https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/43/Supplement_1/A299/5846276

37 patients were identified from 2007 to 2019 with N24 syndrome, BMI of 28, and 67% male. The mean age of onset was within the teenage years (16), and age at diagnosis of 35 years.

More males affected, with onset often during puberty. Could there be a link with sex hormones ?

Secondly:

Identification of circadian clock modulators from existing drugs, 2018 https://www.embopress.org/doi/full/10.15252/emmm.201708724

This study tested multiple sex steroids in-vitro and found that progesterone was a lengthener of circadian period.

Being non-24 myself, I tested for progesterone and other steroids, and found progesterone off chart.

There really could be a link, however I could not find any research concerning progesterone and non-24.

So in an attempt to fill this gap a bit I made the following survey: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdxPuHgyZekWkOT8zjajmUqODI8jnf44pxZiX-8QtFiPbfhnA/viewform

I encourage you to take it if you know your progesterone levels, and/or to test for these levels.

I will post results when enough responses are gathered.

A lot of people seem to have sleep cycles that move a set amount every day, e.g. their sleep time moves forward about 2 hours a day so they are on a 26-hour cycle. But does anyone else here have cycles that don't seem to adhere to any pattern whatsoever? Mine is all over the place, it might move forward half an hour one day and then suddenly the next day it'll move forward six hours. I've been tracking for a couple months now and can't seem to find any pattern at all, except that it mostly consistently moves forward (once or twice it moved back about 30 minutes). I'm doing as much sleep hygiene stuff as is possible with my current situation - I have a bunch of other health conditions that make certain things impossible, e.g. I have severe light sensitivity so I can't do any kind of light therapy. I completely failed at trying to do any kind of entrainment but I'm wondering if there's anything else I can do besides the basic sleep hygeine stuff that might at least make it more predictable? Or even ways of working around or coping with the unpredictability? I'm too disabled to work but I have a bunch of doctors I'm supposed to be seeing for various conditions that I'm struggling to see because they all schedule months in advance and I have no idea whether I'll be awake or not. Any advice or even just commiseration appreciated.

Hi all,

Just thought I'd let you know that to my (happy) surprise, the useful Sleepmeter Free app for Android got an update recently, and is back in the Play store here:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.squalllinesoftware.android.applications.sleepmeter.free

One of the things that has been updated is to make the font size on the graphs legible again. Others include Android OS compatiblity changes.

It's a huge relief to me as I've been logging data in the app for years and was worried that it would stop working at some point.

The ads in the free app aren't intrusive, but if I remember correctly, can be removed with a small one-time payment (it's been years since I paid though so don't remember the details.)

Unlike apps such as Sleep As, which monitor movement and snoring, etc., Sleepmeter uses a manual logging method - configure your average 'how long it takes to fall asleep time', e.g. 15 minutes or 2 hours or whatever, then when you lay down to sleep, tap a button on the widget to activate the countdown. When you when up, tap the widget button again. This makes it great for saving your battery. I use both apps in conjunction.

The home screen widget also got an update to restore its functionality and can be found here:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.squalllinesoftware.android.widgets.sleepmeter