I've always been interested in greek mythology however after having started reading Percy Jackson books I've really wanted to start learning more about it about it but, I find it very difficult with just how much there is and if you could recommend videos (some books but i find it much harder to concentrate on them).

I've also been fairly interested in Norse mythology so if you have anything to help me start on my journey with that as well I'd really appreciate it.

p.s if there is any other mythology stuff that you think is interesting but doesn't fit under that category then I'd love to hear about them as well

A nefarious mugger dressed like an inverse Grim Reaper prowled the American South during the early decades of the 20th century, straddling a murky line between real-life criminal and folklore. Part 1 of 3.

The Gown Man ©2025 thunderbirdphoto.com

By Kevin J. Guhl    

While recently investigating the strange case of the Monster of Marmotte Street (aka the Mary Shelley-inaccurate "Frankenstein" of Fisher's Alley), I came across another strange character that once prowled the same streets in North Mobile, Alabama. One newspaper compared the hysteria surrounding the Marmotte Street Monster of January/February 1938 to the "Gown Man" who once stalked Davis Avenue, draped in white and terrifying pedestrians. Who was this Gown Man? I needed to find out and was surprised to uncover that he was a presence who haunted the Mobile area, not just once but multiple times throughout several decades. And it went beyond Mobile… I soon learned that the Gown Man was a specter deeply entwined with the entirety of the American South, ever present in the shadowy subconsciousness of its residents. 

Before we continue, I want to touch on a conundrum that sparks a continual wrestling match within my brain. One challenge in writing about these events in North Mobile is the fact that early 20th-century news articles aren't exactly known for their racial sensitivity. As North Mobile was a predominately Black community, the articles about the Gown Man and Monster of Marmotte Street routinely underlined that fact. Many articles were written neutrally, although they used now-outdated nomenclature. But some articles dripped with ugly and obvious racism, and it's rather shocking to see today. It's also blatant that some of these stories were painting Black residents as superstitious and excitable. Of course, that scene plays out throughout time in news stories about mass hysteria surrounding various mysterious fiends, no matter the town or its demographics. As a writer who obsessively cites his sources, I struggle with even stating the headlines of some of these old news articles. Should I present the citations as they were, or strike out offending words (as I currently have done)? Within the body of my text, I try to avoid references to more objectionable content unless absolutely necessary to convey the correct historical context. That is hard to ignore in presenting this topic, which explores a possibly folkloric phenomenon documented in Black communities throughout the American South during the late 1800s and early 20th century. In any case, it's just a reminder that history isn't very pretty but you disparage truth if you ignore it.

During the winter panic over the Frankenstein of Fisher's Alley in 1938, the Pensacola Journal stated on Jan. 29 that "not since the notorious 'Gown Man' of Davis Avenue had there been such a scare" in the primarily Black neighborhood of North Mobile. This particular Gown Man was likely a reference to John Coleman, an African-American man who terrorized hundreds of residents along Davis Avenue several years earlier before his capture and arrest. The Pensacola Journal stated that the Gown Man had been sentenced to a stint in the penitentiary, although this could have been a blurred memory of an earlier Gown Man, Willie Taylor, who was a purse snatcher given hard labor for his crimes. Coleman was more of a prankster, whose modus operandi during both of his two tenures as the Gown Man was to accost pedestrians, raise his overcoat over his head, make faces, and shout, "Boo!" The cops preferred a vagrancy charge for Coleman, who paid a $10 fine for the offense in police court. But this was just the latest adventure for Mobile's Gown Man.

Historical Note: Davis Avenue, which has been renamed to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Avenue, is celebrated in the present day for its role during the 1940s-1970s as Mobile's "'Black Main Street'– a hub of black-owned businesses and venues, [and] a walkable and tight-knit community with dense activity," according to the Alabama Contemporary Art Center.

To learn more about the Gown Man, we need to travel further back in time, starting on Dec. 10, 1927. Per a report in the New Orleans States, Mobile's police force was on the hunt for the Gown Man, a "mysterious night prowler who has terrorized residents in the northern part of the city and shifted to a different locality." Passing motorists and a resident of the St. Charles apartments spotted the "apparition" and alerted police, putting them on the trail early that morning. Police ultimately admitted failure after "the curious figure of the much-wanted intruder disappeared in the darkness just as pursuing officers reached the spot where he was last reported." 

Turning the clock back further, we learn that the Gown Man was especially active in Whistler, an Alabama community about seven miles northwest of Mobile. An article published in the Sept. 29, 1921 Wiregrass Farmer offered a detailed description of the Gown Man, or at least one version of him, and his notoriety:

"GOWN MAN" APPEARS AGAIN

Whistler's "gown man," the mysterious figure which has appeared for four consecutive years in Mobile's suburb, has come back again. The heavily robed figure appeared for the first time this year last Friday, when several Whistler residents saw him go into a pine thicket near the Turnerville road. The figure was covered by a flowing gown and wore a high hat coming to a point.

The stories as told about the "gown man" as it is known over the section brand it as a rather harmless specter, but the mystery which surrounds it comes from the fact that it has never been seen at close range. Every time a "materialization" is made, a crowd is organized to catch it, but after hundreds of these chases the "gown man" is still free. Every year he appears about the same time and is glimpsed practically every night until late in the winter.

The gown man makes a specialty of frightening children, though no record has been made of any harm being done. He seems to take especial delight in appearing suddenly to youths after dark, and the bona fide nature of many a wild chase is attested to by the leading residents of Whistler.

Organized effort was made to get the wanderer last year, and on several occasions it seemed to [be] cornered, but always escaped. One night during last winter the figure was seen to leap into an empty freight car on a railroad track, but when the pursuers came up to the car it was empty. There was only one door to the car.

Since the re-appearance of the "gown man" Friday, Whistler residents have begun a movement to catch the person, and finally get at the bottom of the mystery. Meanwhile the children in Whistler are keeping pretty close to their homes until the capture is made.

Looking back, it's hard not to notice the unsettling similarity between the Whistler Gown Man's "flowing gown" and "high hat coming to a point" and the traditional attire of the Ku Klux Klan. According to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the original KKK that formed in the wake of the U.S. Civil War wore masks or hoods and sometimes robes but it was the second version of the hate group, started in 1915, that firmly established the well-known look of the hooded and robed Klansmember. The organization formed in Alabama following the Civil War to oppose the extension of citizenship and voting rights to former slaves as well as ending Republican control of the state government, per the Encyclopedia of Alabama. The KKK disbanded during the early 1870s but returned in 1915, establishing a Birmingham chapter the following year and expanding statewide throughout the early 1920s. This timing eerily correlates with the emergence of Whistler's Gown Man. Were residents seeing local Klansmen on their way to meetings deep in the woods, or was it just a coincidence? Overall, could the Gown Man phenomenon have reflected fears in the African-American community of a very tangible threat that was lurking in the underbelly of the South? Perhaps, but the Gown Man as described in 1921 was a more benign boogeyman, possibly even a non-human phantom. Also, when various Gown Men were unmasked, they were most frequently Black, revealing that the culprit was preying on their own community. The various Gown Men also wore a variety of robes and women's clothing of different colors, and their activity ranged from pesky to nefarious. As you will see, the Gown Man might represent folklore developed specifically within African-American communities in the South during the late 1800s and first few decades of the 20th century.

In 1920, we come across the very human Gown Man who seems to be at the root of the long-lasting phenomenon. On July 24, Willie Taylor was paraded before Mobile police court wearing the blue gown, black bonnet and mask in which he had been captured. North Mobile residents testified that Taylor was indeed the figure who had been terrifying the residents of Davis Avenue for several weeks. Taylor's specialty was purse snatching, and he had been arrested on the complaint of such by one of his recent victims, Irene Hawkins. Even worse, Taylor had allegedly frightened and robbed children who had been sent to local stores on errands. Taylor was convicted of his crimes and given a year of hard labor.

Was Taylor the original Gown Man, whose exploits became urban legend around Mobile and fueled stories of more evasive robed strangers in later years? Perhaps he inspired later Gown Men like John Coleman? Possibly, but Taylor's arrest was just a bump in the road for the Gown Man, whose history in Mobile stretched back decades.

On Nov. 2, 1900, Mobile police were looking for a man in a "Mother Hubbard" dress (a long, wide, loose-fitting gown with long sleeves and a high neck), who had "disturbed the peace and serenity of the western portion of the city and prevented many from staying out late for fear of coming in contact with the mysterious individual," wrote the New Orleans Times-Democrat. Police planned to redouble their efforts to discover and make known this individual’s identity, "as well as the object he could have in masquerading out of season." Mobile police provided an update six days later, which also might be the first time the ominous character was referred to as "gown man." As reported in the Times-Democrat: "Chief Soost, believing that the 'gown man' is being used as a subterfuge for disorderly persons to carry guns, has issued some orders on the subject. He states that his detectives have investigated the subject, and found the 'gown man' to be a myth, and there is more danger from the gangs hunting the 'gown man' than from the imaginary gentleman." The reference to a mob searching for the Gown Man reflects the posse of armed vigilantes that patrolled North Mobile looking for the Monster of Marmotte Street in 1938 and had to be dispersed by police lest someone get shot.

Matira Bambridge wearing a Mother Hubbard dress, mid-1800s.

Even if the original Gown Man was a myth, there is evidence that he permeated local popular culture. Mobile held its Mardi Gras festivities on Feb. 19, 1901. During the parade, the "Commic Cowboys" presented eight humorous floats portraying local events, themed "Mobile's Expansion." These floats were titled: Return of Our Mystics, Mrs. Nation and the City Ordinances, The Mobile Press Baseball Club to the Rescue, Mobile New Year's Caller, Public Library, Alabama's Motto, New Union Depot, and The Gown Man.

Newspapers outside of Mobile reported on the Gown Man, and he would appear in cities throughout the South in the coming years. Did these news articles implant the idea in the head of readers in other states? Or could it mean that the Gown Man was a wider phenomenon? As you will see, the answer is that there were multiple other Gown Men operating throughout the American South, and under a variety of nicknames.

We will explore the precursor to the Gown Men, the Hugging Mollies, in Part 2.

im making a minecraft mod about harnessing the power of japanese yokai. im already working on the tengu oni and kitsune but i am searching for more ideas and maybe less known more interesting ones.

Forgive my ignorance in advance; I'm a Christian from America who's likes to learn about other religions.

Anyway, when looking up on Shiva and Parvati's other children, Kaushiki is (sometimes) brought up. And, when reading the Wikipedia page (Kaushiki - Wikipedia), I've been pretty confused.

-Is Kaushiki Parvati's child or another manifestation/alter-ego like Kali?

-With Kaushiki born out of Parvati's cell/sheath, Parvati became Kali. So, would Kaushiki have to return to Kali in order to turn back into Parvati? If not, how else did Kali return to her form as Parvati?

Hey all!

So a long time ago I read a version of the dragonslayer myth in which the hero (a thunder deity/demigod?) has to defeat several dragons. However, brute force doesn't work on them- they just pummel him and laugh in his face.

His wife has an idea though, and she serves them a feast, and because they're dragons, they eat so much they get stuck in their caves and can be defeated. But I can't for the life of me remember what myth I'm thinking of, or even what culture it comes from. If anyone knows which myth this is, please let me know!

In my recent ideas about the 1st man & cow being killed to form the world, consider the case of Tiamat.  The Hamito-Semitic gods Tiamat & Apsû were originally a cow & bull :

https://www.academia.edu/127298826
>
… the Babylonian Enuma Eliš, which tells how Marduk overthrew Tiamat, mother of the gods and Kingu, her consort who ruled as king, then assumed the throne and created earth, sky, and waters from Tiamat’s dismembered body, the first humans from Kingu’s blood [me:  mixed with earth, see Adam].  Initially, it was believed that Tiamat was a chaos monster of some sort, but the 1961 discovery of an additional tablet provided new details, telling how Marduk made clouds from Tiamat’s spittle, mountains from her head and udders, and the sources of the Tigris and Euphrates from her eyes. The text’s attention to body parts that are distinctly female (ṣirtu, udders, and libbu, womb), one possessed only by animals (zibattu, the tail), and one denoted by a term used only of bovines (rupuštu, slaver or spittle) led those who discovered and first translated this tablet to perceive “the essential cow-like nature of the Tiamat-colossus.”
>

Apsû probably came from a word for ‘bull’ (see the bull Apis, below), & Tiamat is from an Akkadian word from Hamito-Semitic ‘depth / abyss / sea’.  Kingu probably once meant ‘man’ (later > ‘slave > laborer’), so his death also resembles that of Mannus, Manu, etc., in all details, including those Indo-European myths where the man’s body forms humans, but the cow’s animals & plants, etc. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingu
>
Kingu, also spelled Qingu (d^ kin-gu, lit. 'unskilled laborer'), was a god in Babylonian mythology, and the son of the gods Abzu and Tiamat.  After the murder of his father, Apsu, he served as the consort of his mother, Tiamat, who wanted to establish him as ruler and leader of all gods before she was killed by Marduk. Tiamat gave Kingu the Tablet of Destinies, which he wore as a breastplate and which gave him great power. She placed him as the general of her army. However, like Tiamat, Kingu was eventually killed by Marduk. Marduk used Kingu's blood to create the first human beings, while Tiamat's body created the earth and the skies.
>

This supports Indo-European myths about a cow being killed to form the world being fairly old.  The hermaphroditic nature of either cow or man (or both) might be seen in both male & female progenitors.  It is possible Tiamat & Apsû were easily split because they became (or were adapted from a previous version into) the personifications of the Tigris & Euphrates (one is deeper than the other, and the word for ‘sea’ also being ‘depth’ would allow an easy match for local tales of a deep river vs. global tales of the deep), and their lifegiving water was equated to the original waters in myth (or, practically, an older myth was modified when their ancestors came to a land with 2 great rivers).  Tiamat had monsters for offspring, which suggested to early interpreters that she was a monster herself.  However, the Greek goddess Ge also had monstrous giants as children (an image of Tiamat seems to show her as a woman with snakes for legs, like some Greek giants who were Ge’s sons), & (most importantly) Zeus’ enemy Typhon, who would be the equivalent of Kingu.  In anger, she used him in an attempt to avenge her giant children (others say Hera gave birth to Typhon, also in anger for Zeus).  This resembles other aspects of Tiamat’s myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat
>
With Tiamat, Abzu (or Apsû) fathered the elder deities…
In the myth recorded on cuneiform tablets, the deity Enki (later Ea) believed correctly that Abzu was planning to murder the younger deities as a consequence of his aggravation with the noisy tumult they created. This premonition led Enki to capture Abzu and hold him prisoner beneath Abzu’s own temple, the E-Abzu ('temple of Abzu'). This angered Kingu, their son, who reported the event to Tiamat, whereupon she fashioned eleven monsters to battle the deities in order to avenge Abzu's death. These were her own offspring: Bašmu ('Venomous Snake'), Ušumgallu ('Great Dragon'), Mušmaḫḫū ('Exalted Serpent'), Mušḫuššu ('Furious Snake'), Laḫmu (the 'Hairy One'), Ugallu (the 'Big Weather-Beast'), Uridimmu ('Mad Lion'), Girtablullû ('Scorpion-Man'), Umū dabrūtu ('Violent Storms'), Kulullû ('Fish-Man'), and Kusarikku ('Bull-Man').
Tiamat was in possession of the Tablet of Destinies, and in the primordial battle, she gave the relic to Kingu, the deity she had chosen as her lover and the leader of her host, and who was also one of her children. The terrified deities were rescued by Anu, who secured their promise to revere him as "king of the gods." He fought Tiamat with the arrows of the winds, a net, a club, and an invincible spear. Anu was later replaced first by Enlil, and (in the late version that has survived after the First Dynasty of Babylon) then subsequently by Marduk, the son of Ea.
And the lord stood upon Tiamat's hinder parts,
And with his merciless club he smashed her skull.
He cut through the channels of her blood,
And he made the North wind bear it away into secret places.
Slicing Tiamat in half, Marduk made from her ribs the vault of heaven and earth. Her weeping eyes became the sources of the Tigris and the Euphrates, her tail became the Milky Way.  With the approval of the elder deities, he took the Tablet of Destinies from Kingu, and installed himself as the head of the Babylonian pantheon. Kingu was captured and later was slain: his red blood mixed with the red clay of the Earth would make the body of humankind, created to act as the servant of the younger Igigi deities.
>

Tiamat would then be a version of both Ge & Echidna (and Uranus, though presumably the Indo-European myth was 1st about the twin/joined/conjoined (all likely meanings of *y(e)mHo-) Uranus & Ge being cut apart, their bodies forming Heaven & Earth, thus later a single male-female giant).  All these features, mothers with monstrous children, having children avenge a wrong, bodies being carved up, etc., are also found in other Hamito-Semitic myths.  The parts are rearranged in Egypt (partly, because Osiris’ body parts could not form the world, since each was said to be buried in a different place in Egypt; maybe partly because they had 1 great river, not 2) :

https://www.academia.edu/127298826
>
In both Egyptian and Greek texts, Osiris is presented as a primordial king, brother and husband of Isis, and brother of Seth (Greek Typhon), his enemy and rival (fig. 1).  In the course of their rivalry, Seth kills his older brother and dismembers his body, scattering its parts through the land.  Thereafter, Isis seeks and recovers the severed members, has tombs and temples erected in the cities where these came to rest, and organizes funerary rituals, acting rather like the founding priest of Osiris’s cult.  She also manages to give her deceased brother-spouse a posthumous son.  This is the young Horus, who seeks out Seth, conquers him in battle, binds him, and delivers him to Isis. According to Plutarch, this is what happened next: “Isis, having received the bound Typhon, did not do away with him, but loosed his bonds and let him go.  Horus, taking this immoderately, laid hands on his mother and tore the royal crown from her head.  And Hermes placed a cow-headed helmet on her.
>

This is slightly watered down.  Horus really decapitated her, like Marduk smashed Tiamat’s skull.  There was a reason for his double-role, likely also due to an Egyptian modification.

>
Several Egyptian versions do, in fact, tell how an enraged Horus decapitated his mother, after which the god Thoth (= Greek Hermes) gave her the head of a cow.  This is consistent with representations of the goddess that regularly give her a cow-horn headdress (fig. 2) as well as Herodotus’s report that cows were sacred to Isis and Plutarch’s observation, “they consider the cow an image of Isis.”  Beyond this, Osiris had another bovine companion, for whenever a sacred Apis bull died, it was titled Osiris-Apis (whence Greco- Roman Sarapis) and buried close to Osiris’s tomb at Memphis, where it was regarded as—in Plutarch’s words—“the external manifestation of Osiris’s soul”
>

Since Isis is explicitly a cow, Osiris a bull, this fits the implied relations above were real.  This decapitation might also serve as an explanatory justification to link Isis to Hathor, the cow goddess, whose attributes she absorbed over time.  That the Egyptian myth had been modified is seen in Isis’ pointless freeing of Seth.  This is likely to give Horus a reason to decapitate her in the myth (otherwise, he would be in Seth’s position against Osiris).  Horus was the equivalent of Marduk, but in this myth he acts like both Marduk & Kingu.  This is likely because there were 4 important gods whose relationships the myth had to fit in, as opposed to 5 with major roles in Tiamat’s.  Popular gods were given the “just” roles, but their was a need for someone to perform each action, even if it made little sense.  Just as Tiamat’s consort was also her son, Isis’s was her brother, and she needed her son to fight his killer.  About Osiris as a bull :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(deity)
>
In ancient Egyptian religion, Apis or Hapis,[a] alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh, was a sacred bull or multiple sacred bulls[1] worshiped in the Memphis region, identified as the son of Hathor, a primary deity in the pantheon of ancient Egypt. Initially, he was assigned a significant role in her worship, being sacrificed and reborn.
>

The Hamito-Semitic origin of these gods is seen in Tiamat & Apsû : Isis & Osiris-Apis.  Though most names are not cognate, the bull-god was probably just ‘bull’, with a path like :

*ħwəbšūw ? > Apsû

*ħwəbšūw ? > *ħújpuw > Eg. ħúʔpə

Since Hamito-Semitic reconstructions are not the best, this is the closest I can come.  I assume that *pš > *šp > jp in Eg., or similar.

I'm assuming that in the version where Orion and Artemis did actually fall in love with each other, they never..."did it", right?

Given that Artemis is, yknow, very very chaste?

Just asking this subreddit because y'all know more about this than I do.

Also, given that in over 15 accounts of the stories of Orion and Artemis where Orion attempts to...sexually assault her, how do you think things would've turned out if he were a normal ass dude that didn't do that?

Moses in the bible, Sargon of Akkad, Romulus and Remus from Rome...so many heroes were abandoned as infants in floating cribs. Where does this trope come from, and how widely spread is it?

Sargon of Akkad is certainly the eldest instance as long as I know, Moses was from a closely related semitic culture, but Romulus and Remus were from a non semitic, non related culture 8000 km away from Mesopotamia. I wonder about the true origins and story of this chilling trope.

Legend has it that Thor and Loki stayed overnight at a farmer's home during their trip to the underworld. Thor saw that the farmer's house was bare and his two children were skinny, but he still entertained them warmly. So Thor was moved and killed the goat that pulled his cart and shared his goat meat with the farmer's family. Although Thor repeatedly reminded them not to damage the bones and fur before eating, one of the farmer's children was too hungry and broke one of the goat's leg bones and sucked the marrow. As a result, the next morning, when Thor resurrected the goats, he found that one of the goats had a lame leg. He was furious and threatened to severely punish the farmer's family. Finally, under Loki's persuasion, Thor calmed down his anger and just let the farmer's two children serve as his servants to compensate. And this so-called "punishment" is equivalent to a reward for mortals

Once, Thor went fishing with the giant Hymir. In order to show his strength to Hymir, Thor drove the boat far from the shore, used the head of a giant bull as bait, and put it in the deep sea to attract the giant snake Jörmungandr to bite it. Then he used all his strength to wrestle with the giant snake biting the bull's head, and successfully pulled the giant snake out of the sea. After the giant snake Jörmungandr rushed to the sea, he was shocked and angry. He kept releasing poison gas and snake blood, and pulled the bull hard to wrestle with Thor. Even the ship where Thor stood was destroyed by the giant snake. At this time, Thor picked up Thor's hammer Mjolnir and wanted to hit the giant snake on the head, but the giant Hymir was afraid and cut the silk thread, resulting in the giant snake falling back into the sea. From then on, the hatred with Thor escalated again, and eventually led to the death of the god and the snake in Ragnarok.

I vaguely remember a story I heard somewhere about a fisherman, who was walking along the beach and saved a turtle from some kids who were bullying it. And then the turtle turned into a beautiful woman and took him into a palace at the bottom of the ocean and they had a meal i think there was a king and a dragonsomewhereinthestory, and then he had to go back to the surface, and she gave him a box and told him not to open it, and then he opened it and became an old man can anyone tell me what this story is called

Hera is easily the best option in my personal opinion for a variety of reasons.

Who WOULDN'T be crashing out, constantly, if their husband was constantly gallivanting off to have sex with whoever they wanted, while she is the goddess of marriage**.**

Hera is absolutely justified in her grudges against Zeus; now, his children? Maybe not so much, but still. Justified. Is it right? No, but it is absolutely justified.

Additionally, her gift was easily the greatest of them all for actual practicality and long-term success. Athena's was the second greatest, but really would just make him an immensely skilled and wise warrior, a general at best.

But nOOOOOOO Paris see's an, admittedly, impossibly beautiful woman, proceeds to COMPLETELY IGNORE THE CONTEXT of Aphrodite not exactly making clear that she didn't mean the most beautiful single women, and he went all unga-bunga horny brain and chose that.

If Zeus can spend his whole immortal life cheating on Hera, then her being fairest of them all is easily the best.

...plus, I tend to like older women anyhow. Hell I would've married Hera if I had the option to, she needs a damn break.

I can think of at least three mythologies where the primary god is often depicted as a wise old man with white hair: Zeus, Odin, and the Christian God. I don’t know much about Norse mythology, but I think neither of the other two actually describe their gods that way.

Why are they all drawn like that? I don’t think Greek mythology shows him like that, and the Bible says we can’t know what God looks like, we see Him looking like a cloud at one point.

The closest thing I can think of would be Jesus in Revelation 1, where He is also shown to have glowing skin and a sword in His mouth.

Ps. This was inspired by the post in the screenshot:

https://preview.redd.it/8nomhtlo4fge1.png?width=928&format=png&auto=webp&s=db743564f4757979874896254f9e2b5e8edee6b7

In later Iranian records, Gayōmart is described as producing various metals from each part of his body, resembling Skt. accounts of Purusa having each of his parts become the sun, sky, etc. :

https://www.academia.edu/57850462
>
9. From that great general sacrifice Ṛchas and Sāma-hymns were born; Therefrom were spells and charms produced; the Yajus had its birth from it.
10. From it were horses born, from it all cattle with two rows of teeth: From it were generated kine, from it the goats and sheep were born.
11. When they divided Purusa, how many portions did they make? What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
12. The Brāhman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rājanya made. His thighs became the Vaiśya, from his feet the Śudra was produced.
13. The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the sun had birth; Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vayu from his breath.
14. Forth from his navel came mid-air; the sky was fashioned from his head; Earth from his feet, and from his ear the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.
15. Seven fencing-sticks had he, thrice seven layers of fuel were prepared, When the Gods, offering sacrifice, bound, as their victim, Purusa.
>

The agreement between (surviving) Iranian & Skt. tales is actually less than between Skt. & Norse :
>
High One said:  “There is a great deal to be told about this. They took Ymir and carried him into the middle of Ginnungagap, and made the world from him:  from his blood the sea and lakes, from his flesh the earth, from his bones the mountains; rocks and pebbles they made from his teeth and jaws and those bones that were broken.”
Just-as-High said:  “From the blood which welled freely from his wounds they fashioned the ocean, when they put together the earth and girdled it, laying the ocean round about it. To cross it would strike most men as impossible.”
Third added: “They also took his skull and made the sky from it and set it over the earth with its four sides, and under each corner they put a dwarf…”
>

Similar myths about a god, man, animal being killed & dismemebered (or a tree or plant growing from the spot where he died or was buried) are found all over the world.  The IE myths are important in that a cow (or hermaphroditic cow-bull) can be killed at the same time, or in his place.  The Skt. & Iranian considered together might show that IIr. had a myth explaining the many animals as coming from the cow’s death, the races or castes of men from the man’s death.  The exact details about what body part produced what element, etc., seem to have shifted over time, though, “the sky was fashioned from his head/skull” seems to show many traditions remained for a very long time.  This is due to the sky being seen as a dome of stone above the earth, with heavenly waters (& sometimes heavenly fields as a paradise for the righteous) above it.  The dwarfs holding up the world is probably due to the word for ‘dwarf’ originally referring to several magic beings, likely :

*dhreugWh- ‘lie / harm’ > Skt. drúh- / druhú- / drógha- ‘injury/harm / demon’, Av. draōga- / druj- ‘lie/deceit’, ON draugr ‘ghost’, draumr ‘dream’, *drewga-z > Gmc. *dwerga-z ‘dwarf / dark elf / giant’, OE dweorg, E. dwarf

Rhodian Athena is the supposed Athena in Strabo's Geography who was involved with Helios and had the Korybantes.

I've heard people say that Athena was actually a nymph named Rhode, as recorded by Pindar, the Greek poet who came before Strabo: Pindar, Olympian Ode 7.69 ss:

"And out of the watery wave grew this island [Rhodes], and the great Helios who begets the fierce rays of the sun, holds it in his dominion, that ruler of horses spitting fire. There long ago he [Helios] lay with Rhodos and begat seven sons, endowed beyond all men of old with genius of thoughtful mind begat the eldest Ialysos (Ialysus), and Kamiros (Camirus) and Lindos and in three parts they. they divided their father's lands, and of three citadels the brothers held each his separate share, and by their three names the cities are called."

So, if this interpretation is correct, it would be a case of syncretism, but is it? And if it is syncretism after all, is there really a problem in considering it the legitimate Athena? Because syncretism is quite common in Greek mythology, like in the case of Rhea-Cybele and the story of Adonis. Interestingly, even the Theoi website contradicted itself regarding the interpretation of Strabo's text about Rhodian Athena, in its comments at the end of the texts on the Telchines and Rhode, respectively.

Strabo, Geography 10.3.19:

"Some say that, of the nine Telkhines (Telchines) who lived in Rhodes, those who accompanied Rhea to Krete (Crete) and ‘reared’ Zeus ‘in his youth’ were named Kouretes (Curetes); and that Kyrbas (Cyrbas), a comrade of these, who was the founder of Hierapytna, afforded a pretext to the Prasians for saying among the Rhodians that the Korybantes (Corybantes) were certain Daimones, sons of Athena and Helios (the Sun) [i.e. this was regarded as a lie]."

Strabo, Geography 14.1.18 (trans. Jones) (Greek geographer, 1st century B.C. to 1st century A.D.):

"Some say that, of the nine Telkhines (Telchines) who lived in Rhodes, those who accompanied Rhea to Krete (Crete) and reared Zeus in his youth (kouros) were named Kouretes (Curetes); and that Kyrbas (Cyrbas), a comrade of these, who was the founder of Hierapytna [in Krete (Crete)], afforded a pretext to the Prasians for saying among the Rhodians that the Korybantes (Corybantes) were certain Daimones, sons of Athena and Helios (the Sun)." [N.B. "Athena," the wife of Helios, is Rhode.]

The point is that Athena was not a stranger in Rhodes, and Helios was also worshiped there.

Strabo, who wrote about Rhodian Athena, was aware of the cults in Rhodes dedicated to these two gods:

Strabo, Geography 14.2.5 (trans. Jones) (Greek geographer, 1st century B.C. to 1st century A.D.):

"The city of the Rhodians lies on the eastern promontory of Rhodes . . . [and it] has been adorned with many votive offerings . . . The best of these are, first, the Kolossos (Colossus) of Helios, of which the author of the iambic verse says, ‘seven times ten cubits in height, the work of Khares the Lindian’; but it now lies on the ground, having been thrown down by an earthquake and broken at the knees. In accordance with a certain oracle, the people did not raise it again. This, then, is the most excellent of the votive offerings, at any rate, it is by common agreement one of the Seven Wonders."

Strabo, Geography 14.2.11 (trans. Jones) (Greek geographer, 1st century B.C. to 1st century A.D.):

"In Lindos [a city on the island of Rhodes] there is a famous temple of Athena Lindia, founded by the daughters of Danäus."

Strabo, Geography 14.2.10:

"Gold rained on the island [of Rhodes] at the time when Athena was born from the head of Zeus, as Pindaros states."

Both Athena and Helios were worshiped in Rhodes, and Strabo was aware of this. Athena even has a temple in Rhodes.

Anyway, I found a longer passage of the fragment that Theoi took. I currently don't know if the version of Rhodian Athena is valid or not, so I need help.

§ 10.3.18: Just as in all other respects the Athenians continue to be hospitable to things foreign, so also in their worship of the gods; for they welcomed so many of the foreign rites that they were ridiculed therefore by comic writers; and among these were the Thracian and Phrygian rites. For instance, the Bendideian rites are mentioned by Plato, and the Phrygian by Demosthenes, when he casts the reproach upon Aeschines' mother and Aeschines himself that he was with her when she conducted initiations, that he joined her in leading the Dionysiac march, and that many a time he cried out "evoe saboe," and "hyes attes, attes hyes"; for these words are in the ritual of Sabazius and the Mother.

§ 10.3.19: Further, one might also find, in addition to these facts concerning these genii and their various names, that they were called, not only ministers of gods, but also gods themselves. For instance, Hesiod says that five daughters were born to Hecaterus and the daughter of Phoroneus, "from whom sprang the mountain-ranging nymphs, goddesses, and the breed of Satyrs, creatures worthless and unfit for work, and also the Curetes, sportive gods, dancers." And the author of Phoronis speaks of the Curetes as "flute-players" and "Phrygians"; and others as "earth-born" and "wearing brazen shields." Some call the Corybantes, and not the Curetes, "Phrygians," but the Curetes "Cretes," and say that the Cretes were the first people to don brazen armor in Euboea, and that on this account they were also called "Chalcidians"; still others say that the Corybantes, who came from Bactriana (some say from among the Colchians), were given as armed ministers to Rhea by the Titans. But in the Cretan accounts, the Curetes are called "rearers of Zeus," and "protectors of Zeus," having been summoned from Phrygia to Crete by Rhea. Some say that, of the nine Telchines who lived in Rhodes, those who accompanied Rhea to Crete and "reared" Zeus "in his youth" were named "Curetes"; and that Cyrbas, a comrade of these, who was the founder of Hierapytna, afforded a pretext to the Prasians for saying among the Rhodians that the Corybantes were certain genii, sons of Athena and Helios. Further, some call the Corybantes sons of Cronus, but others say that the Corybantes were sons of Zeus and Calliope and were identical with the Cabeiri, and that these went off to Samothrace, which in earlier times was called Melite, and that their rites were mystical.

§ 10.3.20: But though the Scepsian, who compiled these myths, does not accept the last statement, on the ground that no mystic story of the Cabeiri is told in Samothrace, still he cites also the opinion of Stesimbrotus the Thasian that the sacred rites in Samothrace were performed in honor of the Cabeiri: and the Scepsian says that they were called Cabeiri after the mountain Cabeirus in Berecyntia. Some, however, believe that the Curetes were the same as the Corybantes and were ministers of Hecate. But the Scepsian again states, in opposition to the words of Euripides, that the rites of Rhea were not sanctioned or in vogue in Crete, but only in Phrygia and the Troad, and that those who say otherwise are dealing in myths rather than in history, though perhaps the identity of the place-names contributed to their making this mistake. For instance, Ida is not only a Trojan, but also a Cretan, mountain; and Dicte is a place in Scepsia and also a mountain in Crete; and Pytna, after which the city Hierapytna was named, is a peak of Ida. And there is a Hippocorona in the territory of Adramyttium and a Hippocoronium in Crete. And Samonium is the eastern promontory of the island and a plain in the territory of Neandria and in that of the Alexandreians.

I have a project where I have to sculpt a mythological creature out of clay. I'll be honest, I have very little prior knowledge of mythological creatures but that's why I'm here!

I'm trying to use my art to express my political beliefs. The creature could represent any of the following or other similar values

• feminism
• LGBT
• pro immigration
• education
• resistance in general

Bonus points if they are visually interesting and unique (ex. Medusa, but I can't sculpt her bc a classmate already did 😭)

It can be from any region or fictional

I remember one of my lecturers during my university years told that Aphrodite is actually bald and she has a beard in Cyprus mythology. Its been wandering on my mind lately and trying to find sources for this info to make sure. Does anyone have any idea about Aphrodite being bald and with beard or heard any of it?

Titans vs. olympians, æsir vs vanir, devas vs asura, Tuatha Dé Danann vs fomorians..

What’s going on here, in your opinion?

1. IE Giants

In Greek Myth the Cyclopes were smiths who forged the thunderbolt of Zeus, and said to be 3 brothers.  Since these 3 brothers had ANOTHER 3 brothers, the Hekatonkheires (Hundred-Armed Giants), they are probably just names for the same older group of generic giants.  If both were original, why not a group of 6 brothers?  Many gods result from the split of an older god with 2 (mor more) names.  They could have been split up when some of the monstrous features associated with giants were standardized into 2 sets (at least; there were many groups of giants in myths).  Likewise, the later Cyclopes in myths are simply other giants subsumed by the word “Cyclops” and given the monstrous feature of being one-eyed.  Some say skulls of small elephants, with the nose hole mistaken for a large central eye, were responsible for this.  It is possible that the prevalence of one-eyed giants in Greece was due to finding these, but not the presence of giants themselves, found in all IE (or were they?, see below).  Giants are described in various ways in IE, usually hostile but sometimes helping the gods; such a generic term as “giant” merely described their size over this range, not all Cyclopes need be smiths or directly related to the 3 brothers.

The 3 Cyclopes were all named after features of storms and lightning, and obviously so.  This shows that the Greeks still associated at least one group of giants with storms and lightning; the explanation of thunder as the gods throwing stones, etc., must be very old.  If these relate to the common IE tendency for creating groups of 3 in myths, their age allows a PIE origin for other such groups, like the 3 craftsman of the Rg Veda, the Rbhú-.  The confusion among giants, dwarves, and elves might also be of PIE age (Whalen 2022).  If giants and dwarves sometimes came from the same PIE myths, their skill in crafting and the fact that they often made items for the gods (like the Cyclopes made the thunderbolt), even when they were often enemies of the gods, would be fairly firm evidence.

IE myths are not always consistent.  The 3 Cyclopes might have been responsible for storms and lightning in some stories, Zeus in others, later fit together by having them as only the makers of the thunderbolt, despite their names.  In a similar way, Indra, Rudra, and the Maruts probably all made storms and lightning in some tales (and Parjánya, a god who is probably just another name for Indra).  If lightning is seen as throwing a (magic) stone, it would be similar to elf-shot, also attributed to various beings.  People thinking lightning targeted wrongdoers or the enemies of gods, spirits, or clouds personified as giants (and/or shapes in the clouds being seen as real faces, etc.) is not too much to ask.  Of course, having various names for any of these groups would not be odd considering the number of IE names for even such a certain character as the God of the Sea.

With this, where were giants in the Rg Veda?  It has a lack of many groups of supernatural beings later seen in India, or known from many IE groups.  Some groups are just names, their distinct features never specified (likely since they would be known to the audience without being told).  There, the name Náhuṣ- is used without explanation for one or more supernatural beings, who were at one time enemies of Indra (maybe on several occasions).  With the many shared features of Indra and Thor, I wonder what happened to the nearly certain PIE tales of a Storm God fighting giants?  In a paper that touches on many topics, Adam Catt considers what the use of vrādh- for the Náhuṣ-as meant.  This is, in standard IE, seen as Skt. vrādh- ‘be proud / boast’, Av. urvāz- ‘be proud / entertain’, urvādah- ‘*pride / *entertainment > joy / bliss’.  With the many IE roots showing ‘swell / grow large / become proud’, this works as his vrādh- ‘powerful’, though ‘large’ would fit many of his arguments just as well.  I think the supposedly unknown word Náhuṣ- should simply be translated ‘giant’, often equivalent to the Maruts or any other giants associated with storms and lightning.  Thus, Indra is described as very strong and very large; both fit the context in which his help is needed against them.  People who are scared of giants might come to an equally large god who has helped men in the past for protection.  Both “He is more powerful than the powerful Nahus(as)” and (as Indra himself says), “I am more Nahus than Nahus!” (Náhuṣo náhuṣṭaras, Catt 2019: 24), which seems best explained as “I am more gigantic than giants!” if it makes any sense at all.  Indra is “well-born” in part from the Nahus(es), like Zeus is related to the giants (of all types) and Odin is likely the son of Ymir (if he was the same as his little-described father, which would be needed if the story fit PIE myths of forming the world from the body of a giant, including Uranus struck by his son).

2. Skt. náhuṣ-ṭara- ~ Kh. *naghu-tara- > nagudár

Supporting Skt. náhuṣ-ṭara- (added to PIE *-tero- ‘either of two / other’ as ‘additional / more’) as ‘larger’ is Kh. *naghu-tara- > nagudár ‘very large’ and *naghu-anya-tara- > nahanǰár ‘very large’ (added to Skt. anyatará- ‘either of two / other’).  Other cognates:  Kh. *naghu-tama- ‘bigger’ > *nahudúm > naduhúm ‘very big (inanimate)’, *nagh(u)-na- > *nagna > nang ‘quite large’.  These affixes could be used without explicit comparative meaning in Dardic, already known for ‘big’ (based on Strand, Hamp 1959):

*gWheno- > Skt. ghana- ‘solid/dense / all’, Ku. ghaini ‘thick’, A. ghaánu, Ks. ghóna, Ni. gaṇi, D. gaṇ, Bs. ghũ´ ‘big’, Ti. gǝn ‘old’

*ghana-tara- > Pr. gǝndǝr ‘big’, *ganadr > *gradan > Wg. grāna ‘big’, *ganadṛạ > *garadṛụ > A. gáaḍu ‘big (animate) / old’

The only difference between náhuṣ-ṭara- & *naghu-tara- is that Skt. added -tara- directly to the stem, forming the context-dependent ‘more gigantic’ instead of basic ‘larger’ in order to match náhuṣ-ṭara- to náhuṣ- mentioned immediately before.  The same type of root vs. stem affixation in B. mɔgiṣṭɔ vs. Skt. mahát-tama-, mahát-tara- (below).

3. IIr. K^ / K

With *naghu-tara- > nagudár but *naghu-tama- > *nahudúm > naduhúm explainable by *gh vs. *g^h, it would support optional PIE K^ > K in the area.  This has been proposed for Bangani for *g(H)lak^t > lɔktɔ ‘milk’, etc.  Claus Peter Zoller claimed that Bangani was related to Kashmiri, maybe showing a Centum substrate, but this is not isolated to Bangani; Kashmiri, among other Dardic languages, have cognates that also show K in these words (Whalen 2023a):

*k^H2atru- > B. kɔtrɔ ‘fight’, Kh. khoṭ ‘fight / quarrel’

Li. liežùvis, Kh. ligìni, E. tongue (reanalyzed with *leig^h- ‘lick’, Skt. lih-, Kh. l-ík)

*dhughH2te:r > B. dukti 'daughter’, Av. dugǝdar-, *dukte: > Li. duktė, *dŭxti > OCS dŭšti
*dhug^hH2te:r > Skt. duhitár-, *ðüćti > Pr. lüšt, Arm. dustr

*bhaH2g^hu- > Skt. bāhú- ‘arm’, Bu. baγú ‘armful’, OE bóg ‘shoulder’
IIr. dual *bhaH2g^huni > Ba. bakuĩ´ , Ti. bekhĩn ‘arm(s)’, KS bεkhin ‘elbow’

*dbhng^hulo- > G. pakhulós, Skt. bahulá- ‘thick / spacious/abundant/large’, A. bhakúlo  ‘fat/thick’, Ni. bukuṭa ‘thick [of flat things]’, Rom. buxlo ‘wide’

*dbhmg^hu- > *bhaγu > Kv. bok ‘enough’, *bhaRu ‘much/many’ > Bn. bɔr-, Ks. bo, *bǒṛù > Bu. buṭ (loan), *bṛǒù > Bs. ḍẓóo

*meg^H2- > IIr. *madźhHǝ, Dardic *maghH-a- > *maga ‘very’ >> Sh. mʌ́γʌ dúr ‘far away’

*meg^H2isto- > B. mɔgiṣṭɔ ‘the most powerful person’, Skt. *máhiṣṭa-, mahát-tara- ‘greater / very great / oldest / most respectable / chief / head of a village / oldest man in a village’

*H3meig^ho- > Arm. mēz ‘urine’, ? > Sh. mīkǝ ‘urine’

*k^uwon- > *k^uwaṇ-i-? > *šoṛeŋí- > D. šoṛíing ‘dog’, *xuréeṇi > *rhéeṇi > Kh. réeni ‘dog’, Southern rèni
*k^uwaṇ-aka-h > A. kuṇóoko ‘pup’, kuṇéeki ‘female dog/pup’
*c^uwaṇ- > *šoṛaŋ- > (with met.) D. šongaṭék ‘female dog/pup’

*pingH1- ( = *pingR^-?, thus both g / g^ ?) > Skt. piñjara- \ piŋga- ‘reddish brown, tawny’, piŋgalá- (AV), Bn. piŋgɔḷɔ ‘yellow’, M. pinkara-, K. *pimkx^ara > *pim(u)xtsar ? > pirmah \ pirmuh \ pirzumuh \ purmah ‘unknown color of horses’, *poingo- > OCS pěgŭ ‘speckled / dappled’ (for *aiNC > *aiC, compare *pa(y)H2msuko-  Skt. pāṃsuka-m, Slavic *paisuko-s ‘sand’ > OCS pěsŭkŭ )

Skt. Náhuṣ- ‘giant’
náhuṣ-ṭara- ‘larger / more gigantic’, Kh. *naghu-tara- > nagudár ‘very large’
*naghu-anya-tara- > nahanǰár ‘very large’
*naghu-tama- ‘bigger’ > *nahudúm > naduhúm ‘very big (inanimate)’
*nagh(u)-na- > *nagna > nang ‘quite large’

4. *nag^hu : *mag^hi

It is impossible to ignore that Dardic *nag^hu ‘big’ would be very similar to Indic *mag^hi ‘big’ and Skt. náhuṣ- ‘giant’ to mahiṣá- ‘great / powerful’ (and Indra “is more powerful than the powerful Nahus(as)”), etc.  If from perf. pt. *mag^h-vas- ‘having become big’, it might have undergone alternation of m / n near P / KW / w / u (Whalen 2025) :

Li. nugarà ‘back’, Lt. mugura

Skt. ámīva- ‘disease / distress’, G. anī́ā, Aeo. onī́ā ‘grief/sorrow / distress/trouble’

*(H3?)nogWh- > TB mekwa ‘nails’, TA maku

*n-Hed-we- ‘not eat’ > TA nätsw- ‘starve’, TB mätsts-

*negWhró- ‘kidney’ > *meghwró- > TA mukär

Skt. viḍa-lavaṇa- >> TB wiralom ‘a kind of salt’ (a medical ingredient)

Skt. cūrṇa- >> TA cūrṇ / curm ‘(medicinal) powder’

IIr. *nastula- / *mastula- ‘of nose(s) / nasal’ > Kh. nastùḷi ‘runny snot’, Skt. nastakarman-, *nastulakarman- / *masturakarman- >> TB nastukārm ‘nasal medicament’, mastukārm ‘medicine applied via the nose’

*nebh- > G. néphos ‘cloud’, Skt. nábhas- ‘cloud/fog/mist’, L. mefītis ‘poisonous gas from swamp/volcano’

*wlH2naH2 ‘wool’ > Po. wełna, Upper Sorbian wołma

L. pugnus ‘fist’, G. pugmḗ (maybe many others with -mo- vs. -no- with same meaning, hard to tell if all had same origin)

*k^witro- > Skt. śvitrá- ‘white’, *k^witi+ in compounds > śviti+, *k^wityano- > G. títanos / kíttanos ‘chalk / lime / gypsum’, Cr. Kíssamos, Kísamos

*muH- ‘silent / mute / unable to speak / in a low voice / whisper’, L. mūtus, G. nuthós ‘dumb/numb/dark’, noûthos ‘dull [of sound]’

*nuH- ‘loud’ > Skt. navatē \ nāuti ‘sounds’, Old Irish núall ‘scream / din/fuss/noise / proclamation’, G. móthos ‘battle din’, mûthos ‘word/speech / saying / story’

*-wVn > -wVm in G.
*serwḗn ‘grasping? (as harpies)’ > *serwḗm > Linear B se-re-mo-ka-ra-o-re ‘(decorated with) siren heads’, G. seirḗn ‘siren’

*H1newn/m ‘9’ (or caused by m / n)
9 OE nigon, L. novem
9th > L. nōnus, Skt. navamá-, TB ñunte
90 > TB ñumka

*mHegWno- > Skt. nagná-, Av. maγna- ‘naked’, Arm. merk, G. gumnós (or caused by m / n)

If the adj. *na(g)huṣ- had its nom. changed from reg. *na(g)hvān to *na(g)huṣ by analogy, it could have later been reinterpreted as *na(g)hu-ṣ, explaining Kh. nagu- / *nahu- / naha-.  However, many origins are possible.  Since Dardic usually changed syllabic *C > uC (drùng ‘long / tall’), even when nasals usually > *ã > a in Indic (*pr̥dŋk(h)u-  > Skt. pr̥dakū-, pr̥dākhu- ‘leopard / tiger / snake’, *pr̥dumxu- > Kh. purdùm ‘leopard’; *dr̥mH- > Latin dormiō, *ni-dr̥mH- > Skt. nidrā ‘sleep (noun)’, A. níidrum h- ‘fall asleep’) and some Indic words show *H > u (*g^en(H1)os- > G. génos, Skt. jánas, janúṣ- ‘descent/kind/birth’; *ya(H2)g^os- > G. hágos, Skt.  yájas-, yájuṣ- ‘sacrifice/worship’, maybe *demH2no- > Skt. dámūna-s ‘master’ (of disputed meaning & form)), then whatever the reason for optionality in any of these, adding one more that fits all types would be no more to explain.  PIE *meg^H2- becoming Dardic / Indic *nag^hu / *mag^hi ‘big’ could be possible.  More certainty would be hard to find.

Catt, Adam (2019) Vedic vrādh- and Avestan uruuād- / uruuāz-
https://www.academia.edu/41330506

Hamp, Eric P. (1959) Two Prasun Notes
https://www.academia.edu/85810060

Strand, Richard (? > 2008) Richard Strand's Nuristân Site: Lexicons of Kâmviri, Khowar, and other Hindu-Kush Languages
https://nuristan.info/lngFrameL.html

Whalen, Sean (2022) How Large Were Norse Dwarfs?
https://www.reddit.com/r/mythology/comments/vdusft/how_large_were_norse_dwarfs/

Whalen, Sean (2023a) Peter Zoller and the Bangani Conundrum
https://www.reddit.com/r/language/comments/12th870/peter_zoller_and_the_bangani_conundrum/

Whalen, Sean (2023b) Three Storm Smiths
https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/14o3umb/three_storm_smiths/

Whalen, Sean (2024a) Laryngeals, H-Metathesis, H-Aspiration vs. H-Fricatization, and H-Hardening in Indo-Iranian, Greek, and Other Indo-European
https://www.academia.edu/114276820

Whalen, Sean (2024b) Greek Uvular R / q, ks > xs / kx / kR, k / x > k / kh / r, Hk > H / k / kh (Draft)
https://www.academia.edu/115369292

Whalen, Sean (2024c) Artemis and Indo-European Words for ‘Bear’
https://www.academia.edu/117037912

Whalen, Sean (2024d) Greek *H and *h (from PIE *s) optionally changed near *o (Draft)
https://www.academia.edu/119795308

Whalen, Sean (2024e) Indo-Iranian ‘round’, ‘kidney’, and related sound changes (Draft)
https://www.academia.edu/118848508

Whalen, Sean (2025) IE Alternation of m / n near n / m & P / KW / w / u (Draft)

In some IE myths, the primordial cow is said to be the first being.  Norse Auðumbla seems to be a good representation.  Her name likely < *Auð(a)-humlōn- ‘nourishing cow’ :

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hummel
>
Probably from Middle English hamelen (“to maim, mutilate; to cut short”), from Old English hamelian (“to hamstring, mutilate”),[1][2] from Proto-Germanic *hamalōną, *hamlōną (“to mutilate”), from Proto-Indo-European *kem- (“hornless; mutilated”). Cognate with Dutch hamel (“wether”), English hamble, Low German hommel, hummel (“an animal lacking horns”),[3] humlich, dialectal hommlich (“lacking horns”), Bavarian humlet (“lacking horns”),[4] German hammeln, hämmeln (“to geld”), Icelandic hamla (“to maim, mutilate”)
>

also rec. as *k^em(H)- :

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/शम
>
From Proto-Indo-European *ḱem- (“hornless”). Cognate with Russian комо́лый (komólyj, “hornless”), Lithuanian šmùlas (“hornless”), Proto-Germanic *hindiz (“female deer < *hornless”)), Ancient Greek κεμάς (kemás, “young deer whose antlers have not yet branched”). Also related to Proto-Germanic *hamalaz (“mutilated, truncated < *with cut off horns”).
>

These could be *k^H2(a)mH2alo-? ‘hornless / cropped’ with *a in Gmc. *hamala- / *humala-, *a > o in Slavic, R. komólyj, Skt. śáma- ‘hornless’, śamana-s ‘a kind of antelope’.  The *k^- > k- before *a in Slavic is known, either *k^a > *ka or due to *k^H2 > *kH2 (likely = k^x > kx ).  The opposite assimilation or metathesis in something like *k^emH2-dho- > Gmc. *ximda- > E. hind, *k^emdhH2o- > *kemtho- > G. kemphás \ kem(m)ás ‘young deer’.  That this would be a name for a Gmc. cow is seen in reports that the Germani kept hornless cows :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Au%C3%B0umbla

Also, the great giant that she fed, Ymir, seems analogous to Amalthea feeding Zeus (usually a goat, with a cornucopia / horn of plenty, similar to Kamadhenu), also << amaltheúō ‘nourish/cherish/rear’, likely << amélgō < PIE *H2melg^- \ *melH2g^- ‘milk’.  Ymir was killed by 3 brothers, Odin, Vili, and Ve, and his body formed the world, his skull the sky, etc.  In Skt. works, the 2-headed Prajapati seems from the same source as the hermaphroditic Gmc. Tvisco (and this & an equation with Ymir ( < *y(e)mHo- ‘twin / in two’; Skt. Yama- ‘twin of Manus’, yamá- ‘twin’; *jaxma > F. jama \ jaama ‘joint’, Sm. juomek ‘twin lamb’) has been proposed before since both were killed to form the world and its important parts, inhabitants, etc.).  This also resembles the mutilation of Ouranos / Uranus.  Keeping every likely relation in mind is important, since in some myths it was the cow, not the god/giant she fed, who was killed to form the world.  Iranian myths seem to combine some of their aspects for the death of the first man, Gayōmart, & the first cow :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavaevodata
>
Gavaevodata (gav-aēvō.dātā) is the Avestan language name of the primordial bovine of Zoroastrian cosmogony and cosmology, one of Ahura Mazda's six primordial material creations and the mythological progenitor of all beneficent animal life.
The primordial beast is killed in the creation myth, but from its marrow, organs and cithra, the world is repopulated with animal life.
>

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/gaw-iewdad
>
GĀW Ī ĒWDĀD (also ēwagdād), the name of the primordial Bovine in Zoroastrian mythology. Although the name gav- aēvō.dātā- appears in two Avestan litanies (Nīāyišn 3.2; Sīh rōzag 2.12) together with måŋha- gaociθra- “the Moon containing the seed of cattle” and gaw- pouru.sarəδā “the Bovine of many species,” the only other information is contained in the Pahlavi books, especially the Bundahišn and the Wizīdagīhā ī Zādspram. The meaning of the name is not altogether certain. The grammatical gender of gav- in Avestan is feminine, yet it can mean “cow” or include all bovine. In Pahlavi, since there is no grammatical distinction of gender, the actual gender of a gāw can only be decided by context. Here the Bundahišn gives clear evidence that, like the primordial man Gayōmard/t (see GAYŌMART; the Gāw ī Ēwagdād was an hermaphroditic creature, for it has both semen (Bundahišn [TD2] 94.4) and milk (Bundahišn [TD2] 43.15). The second part of the name means “sole-created” or “created as one.”
>

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/gayomart-
>
Gayōmart succumbed to his injuries and passed away (Bundahišn 6F.7), while his sperm was in two parts purified by the rays of the sun and entrusted for safe-keeping to the deity Nēryōsang and in one part fell upon the earth and was received by Spandārmad, his creator and mother. His seed remained for forty years in the earth, out of which slowly grew the rhubarb plant, the stem of which developed into the first human couple, Mašīa and Mašīānag (Bundahišn 6F.9), the progenitors of all human races
>

https://www.academia.edu/98068042
>
Hoffmann was the first to note that theVedic myth has a close parallel in Middle Persian texts: the tale of the first man, Gayōmart, who was assailed by diseases sent by Ahriman and whose demise first brought death into theworld.  The myth relates that the dying Gayōmart’s seed was received by the earth, giving rise to a rhubarb plant which developed into a man and a woman, Mašīa and Mašīānag (“mortal,” masc. and fem.) (Bundahišn 14.5-6; Zdspram 10.2-3).  From the primordial bull, which was killed with Gayōmart, the plants of the earth were produced.
>

This also resembles Skt. Kamadhenu, about whom many late & contradictory tales were told :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamadhenu
>
The Mahabharata (Adi Parva) records that Kamadhenu-Surabhi rose from the churning of the cosmic ocean (Samudra Manthana) by the gods and demons to acquire amrita (ambrosia, elixir of life).  As such, she is regarded the offspring of the gods and demons, created when they churned the cosmic milk ocean and then given to the Saptarishi, the seven great seers.  She was ordered by the creator-god Brahma to give milk, and supply it and ghee ("clarified butter") for ritual fire-sacrifices.
>

Some goddesses were called cows, and the gods sometimes ‘cow-born’ in Skt.  The word sa-vātárau has been defined as ‘having identical calves’ but ‘having twin calves’ might be more appropriate with the ev. for twins above (this would also likely be a good omen for cow-loving people).  More ev. comes from an “incantation for the cow” :

Lubotsky, Alexander (2002) Atharvaveda-Paippalāda, kāṇḍa five. Text, translation, commentary
https://www.academia.edu/429905
>
5.5. Incantation for the cow

pr̥thivī vaśā sā[ a]gniṃ garbhaṃ dadhe
semaṃ pāhi tasyai te vidheyaṃ tasyai te namas tasyai te sāhā //
[This] cow is the Earth. She has become pregnant with the fire.
As such, protect this one  here (scil. the patron). I wish to pay you (f.) respects. Homage to you (f.), hail to you  (m.).

[This] cow is the atmosphere. She has become pregnant with the wind.
As such, protect this one  here (scil. the patron). I wish to pay you (f.) respects. Homage to you (f.), hail to you  (m.).
>

Lubotsky’s translation for parts of this are fine, & it continues in this manner throughout.  Each time the primordial cow is said to be one thing, give birth to another, all components of the physical and human world, like :

dyaur vaśā sā sūryaṃ garbhaṃ dadhe…
[This] cow is the heaven. She has become pregnant with the sun…

The very formulaic nature of these makes it easy to understand what any word must mean by seeing what is required by context, but Lubotsky does not do so in the last verses.  For some reason, he takes every word as if all Skt. words were already known and no new word or meaning coud be found here.  This is exactly the opposite of what he does in other papers, finding new puvas- ‘pus’, etc., from context & IE cognates.  This creates translations that are wholly different than the ones above, and he misses the important data on myths given here :

5.5.8 AVP only
vaśā vaśā sā rājanyaṃ garbhaṃ dadhe
[This] cow is “the cow”. She has become pregnant with a prince…

5.5.9 AVP only
samā vaśā sā saṃvatsaraṃ garbhaṃ dadhe
semaṃ pāhi tasyai te vidheyaṃ tasyai te namas tasyai te sāhā //
[This] cow is the year (?). She has become pregnant with a year. As such, protect this one here. I wish to pay you (f.) respects. Homage to you (f.), hail to you (m.).

He took vaśā vaśā as ‘[This] cow is “the cow”’.  What would this mean?  Why would a cow be pregnant with a prince?  The only word that would fit the rest is ‘queen… prince’.  This did not contain marking for accent, so two separate words could appear the same (with their contrast here poetical).  Since vaśā́ ‘cow’ is usually seen as << vāśti ‘cry [of animals]’ (forming the names of many with prominent calls), related to L. vacca, it leaves the possibility that the 1st vaśā is vaśā ‘queen’ < *váśā from stem vaś- ‘be willing/obedient / desire/wish’, seen in the names Váśa- & Turvá- \ *Turva-váśa- > Turváśa-, Av. *uk^- >> *ućanan- > Usaδan- ‘name of a king’ (see below), IE *wek^-, G. *wekatos ‘to be obeyed / lord’, Apollo Hekatos, Zeus’ name Hekalos, & the Hekalḗsia ‘festival to Zeus and Hecale’, Hekátē ‘*queen > Hecate’, Hekábē ‘*queen > the queen of Troy’.

He took saṃvatsaraṃ as equal to vatsá- \ vatsará- ‘(a specific) year’, but this obviously produces nonsense (and not what would be expected of the final section of an invocation).  Instead, obviously when speaking of the end of a cow’s achievements (or life) & comparing it to the primordial cow, the myth of dying & yet giving birth to twins makes it likely that sa-vātárau ‘having twin calves?’ implies saṃvatsara- ‘litter of twin calves’.  These related to vatsá- ‘calf/child’, *vatsala- \ *vatara- ‘calf’ (Sh. batshár & many other IIr. cognates), all from *wet(us)alo- ‘yearling / calf’ (Go. wiþrus ‘1-year-old lamb’, L. vitulus, G. ételon, Cos etalon’) << *wetwos- ‘year’.

The only thing expected to be pregnant with a calf is a cow.  He took samā as equal to sámā- ‘summer/year/half a year/season’, but, again, it is nonsense.  The other possibility would be or fem. of samá- ‘even/level/same/like’ (OCS samŭ ‘self’), but s & ś were often confused here (as he said himself), so why not śámā ‘hornless cow’?  This would fit with all other ev. of the myth, & the Gmc. Audhumla also being hornless.  With these equations, all verses are of the same type, easy to understand (for an audience with the same knowledge as the composer).

The implied existence of Skt. vaśā \ *váśā ‘queen’ < *váśā, supports Váśa- ‘*Lord’ & Turvá- \ *Turva-váśa- > Turváśa- ‘Powerful (Lord)’.  Váśa was a son of horse(s) guarded by Aśvins (Horse Twins).  The pair Yádu- & Turváśa- / Turvá- (ancestor of the Ārya- people) are the Skt. names of the Aśvins, usually not recognized.  This is seen in Yádu- meaning ‘*twin’, related to yād- ‘join?/embrace?’, yā́dura- ‘joining?/merging?’, in the same way that Skt. Yama- ‘twin of Manus’, yamá- ‘twin’ << yámati \ yácchati’hold (up) / support / stretch out / fix / be firm’, yantrá- ‘bond/restraint’, etc. (see above).  Turvá- \ *Turva-váśa- from turv- \ tūrv- ‘overpower / excel’, turváṇi- ‘victorious’, clearly related to Av. Tūra- ‘Turanian (a people in central Asia, descendants of the bro of Arya)’.  The connection of being brothers, ancestors of Arya, etc., makes each part more certain.  More on reasons to see Yádu- & Turváśa- as the Aśvins in :

Whalen, Sean (2023) Indo-European Divine Twins
https://www.reddit.com/r/mythology/comments/10op7nj/indoeuropean_divine_twins/
>
A widely worshipped but often nameless pair of gods were the Indo-European Divine Twins (often part horse, or able to become horse; one knowing medicine and the other boxing/wrestling; one immortal, the other mortal (and dying, and/or restored to (partial or recurring) life when the other shared his immortality, born at the same time but of 2 different fathers, etc.).  They might represent the sun and moon (restored to partial or recurring life like the changing moon), and since these were carried by birds, an eagle and raven, in myths, such correspondences to twin birds (on the world tree) in Sanskrit riddles and odd terms might be related.  They sometimes had individual characteristics or were undifferentiated (at least in Vedic songs of praise; this might vary from myth to myth).  They are known by many names, the Greek > Latin Dioscuri just ‘the sons/boys of Zeus’.  With this known, it is likely that *Diwós-sunos ‘son of Zeus’ > *Diwós-nusos > *Diwó(s)-nusos > Diṓnusos / Diónusos, with metathesis.

These twins are found in many Indo-European stories and images, represented as horses or humans (sometimes riding horses) and are probably the source of the legendary founders of England, Hengest & Horsa; those of Rome, Romulus & Remus ( < *Yemos ‘twin’); the Italic Pīlumnus & Pīcumnus; Dardic Choke and Machoke.  Many of these probably had different names in the past, made more similar by association from repeating their names so often.  These might also include Yatvingian Autrympus & Potrympus, apparently cognate with Latvian austrums ‘east’ and Pęrkuôns and (named for dawn/sun and lightning?), but distorted by changes to make them sound more similar to each other, such as -tr- in both.  If Pęrkuôns was a Twin, this could include related Thor and even Poseidon (associated with horses and water).  Since Thor is essentially the same as Wade, associated with the sea in name and deeds, it implies a wide are of myths are related.  These include the Indic Aśvins (who also replaced the head of a sage with a horse’s as part of restoring his youth and saving his life, etc.) and Maruts.
>

As for other IIr. cognates of *wek^-, Skt. vaś- ‘be willing/obedient / desire/wish’, there is an attempt at reconciling irregularities in :

World Sanskrit Conference 2023. Canberra. Section: Veda.
Georges-Jean PINAULT
Paris, École Pratique des Hautes Études, PSL
Interpreting a Rigvedic word as a fossil from Indo-Iranian mythology

but I feel that these can be ordered as :

*ućanan- > Av. Usaδan-, nom. Usa ‘name of a king’, Skt. Uśán-, nom. Uśánā, acc. Uśánām ‘name of a sage’

Av. usij-, nom. usixš ‘sacrificer (non-Zoroastrian)’, Skt. uśíj-, nom. uśík ‘an epithet of priests, Agni’

*uk^ont- ‘desiring / as one desires / at will’ > Av. usant-

*uk^nt-dhegWh- > Skt. uśá-dhak- ‘burning at will / burning without check / burning greatly // a great fire’

In uśá-dhak-, his expected **uśád-dhak- never came to be due to a sound change *nTT > *nT (or similar, depending on scope), showing that this is an old form.  The IIr. name *ućanan- was an n-stem ‘one obeyed’ from *ućana- ‘obeying’ (or a reasonably similar derivation).  The dissim. in *ućanan- > *ućanan- > Av. Usaδan- is just n-n > n-d (denasalization).  For nom. *ućanan-H > *ućanaH > Uśánā, all would be regular.  For Av., nom. *ućanan-H > *ućan-H (haplology), then > *ućaH would be regular.

Once upon a time, there were three brothers named Vidyunmali, Tarakaksha, and Viryavana, the sons of the demon Tarak. They were determined to gain immense power, so they performed intense penance for many years to please Lord Brahma. Pleased by their devotion, Brahma appeared before them and offered them a boon. The brothers asked for immortality, but Brahma explained that he could not grant them eternal life. Instead, Vidyunmali came up with a clever request: "Grant us three magnificent flying cities, one for each of us. These cities should be indestructible, and our deaths should only occur if someone can destroy all three cities with a single arrow when they align once every thousand years." Brahma agreed and granted their wish.

The three flying cities, known as Tripura, were built,one of gold, one of silver, and one of iron. They became cities of great wealth, power, and technological marvel, soaring high above the earth. The cities had many Kalpa trees there. Elephants and horses were in plenty. There were many palaces set with gems. Aerial chariots shining like the solar sphere, set with Padmaraga stones, moving in all directions looking like moonshine illuminated the cities. There were many palaces, divine minarets resembling the summits of the mount Kailasa. Celestial damsels, Gandharvas, Siddhas, and Caraṇas were also there. There were temples of Rudra. The cities were embellished with many trees in the well-laid out gardens and parks as if they had dropped from heaven. There were beautiful tanks, lakes, wells, rivers and huge ponds. They were very beautiful with plenty of fruit-bearing trees. For a time, there was peace, but over the years, they grew arrogant, and the cities began to cause suffering to the world.

As the years passed, the time came when the three cities were destined to align, an event that occurred only once every millennium. The gods, led by Indra, realized this was the perfect opportunity to destroy the sinful cities and restore balance to the world. However, they knew they needed divine help to accomplish this task. They approached Lord Shiva, the mighty Mahadev, and pleaded for his assistance. Shiva agreed to help.

A grand battle formation was prepared. Lord Shiva mounted his celestial chariot, with Lord Brahma himself serving as the charioteer. The gods, along with the Gandharvas and Vidyadharas, accompanied Shiva, their voices chanting hymns of war as they advanced toward the aligning cities. The demons, led by the three brothers, met them in a fierce and epic battle. The skies roared with the clash of weapons.

Finally, the moment arrived. The three cities aligned perfectly in the sky. Lord Shiva readied his divine bow, aiming a single, powerful arrow at the cities. As he released the arrow, Lord Vishnu guided its path with his divine power, ensuring it would strike true. However, just before the arrow hit, Shiva and the gods remembered Mayasura, a virtuous demon and a brilliant architect who lived in the cities, and they wished to save him. Acting swiftly, Nandi, Shiva's bull, raced ahead of the arrow like a bolt of lightning. He entered the cities, found Mayasura, and helped him escape just moments before the arrow struck.

The projectile hit its mark, and the three cities were destroyed in a blazing explosion, bringing an end to the brothers' reign.

Weird question but I was curious.

Long story short ages ago I was trying to for my Final Fantasy Tactics playthrough find a pair of names for female twins in mythology/religion for my pair of generic female knights.

I found NOTHING

male/male and male/female sure

but not female/female

Even with most earlier societies being male dominated ,its fascinating to see almost no female twin pairs in legends.

I was curious if any of the Mythology buffs here knew of any Female twin goddesses or folk heroes or important figures ,

Image of Māra with her symbols

Māra is a deity shrouded in mystery and yet almost omnipresent in Latvian folklore and mythology. Her roles and responsibilities are numerous—taking care of orphan girls, tending to cattle, healing, and being present at birth, marriage, and other significant moments in life.

Her name and role have been widely discussed, as it bears a resemblance to the Latvian form of the Virgin Mary (Marija). In later folk songs, she appears to incorporate aspects of the Virgin Mary, leading some to suggest that she may not be an ancient deity but rather a localized saint. This idea is further supported by the fact that, after her first mention as a cow goddess (Deo Moschel) in 1606, she was absent from other lists of gods compiled by multiple authors. Additionally, the Lithuanians lack a close equivalent to this goddess. It is also worth noting that during the Baltic Crusades, the region was called Terra Mariana—the land of Mother Mary—which only adds to the confusion. She is often conflated with Laima, the goddess of fate and luck, in both Latvian and Lithuanian myths.

However, there is evidence that Māra may have older and more enigmatic origins. She is associated with snakes, willow trees, and death—elements that hint at a more ancient and possibly chthonic deity. One possible origin of her name is the Proto-Indo-European root mers-, meaning "to die," "to forget," or "to disturb." Cognates of this root exist in both Latvian and Lithuanian, suggesting an older, darker side to her identity. Another possible root is mar-, which is linked to the sea or bodies of water, aligning with Māra’s associations with water and milk. In the Curonian dialect, the sea is sometimes still called Mārja, indicating that this root was known to the ancient Balts.

Multiple rituals dedicated to her have been documented, including blood words and other healing spells distinct from Christian traditions that invoke Mary. Some sacrificial rituals also suggest a pre-Christian origin. One such ritual took place in a bathhouse before childbirth, where a golden ring was offered to Māra, asking her to take the ring but not the mother’s soul. Another ritual was performed in a sacred grove, further supporting the idea of her ancient worship.

All of the aspects above suggest that Māra may indeed have ancient roots. Looking at neighboring cultures, we find intriguing parallels. In Germanic mythology, the _Mare_ is an embodiment of nightmares. Among the Slavs, there is Morana, the goddess of winter and death. Hinduism also has an ancient deity named Mara, a goddess of death, though her worship has diminished over time. These connections lend credence to the idea of Māra as a goddess of change and death.

In the Latvian neopagan reconstructionist movement, Dievturība (those who hold Dievs), Māra is regarded as the mother goddess of all, manifesting through various maternal deities in the Latvian pantheon, such as the Mother of the Forest (Meža Māte), the Mother of the Sea (Jūras Māte), and the Mother of Cows (Govju Māte). She is seen as the mother of the physical world, in contrast to Dievs, who is viewed as the father of the spiritual world. However, both are also considered manifestations of Dievu Dievs. This dualism between Dievs and Māra, and the division between the physical and spiritual realms, is more pronounced in Dievturi beliefs than in traditional folklore.

Exploring Māra’s darker aspects, some folk songs describe her leading a dying mother to a spring, calling for the singer to follow, while the mother warns the singer not to go. In other songs, Māra is portrayed as a malevolent force to be warded off—knocking at the door during a name-giving ritual (Krustabas), where she is unwelcome, or being invoked as a destroyer of flowers in the singer's homeland. In even more unsettling imagery, she is depicted shivering as she crosses a bridge of bones over a river of blood, likely symbolizing a battlefield. Her epithets—"the white one," "the holy one," or "the kind one"—may reflect an attempt to appease her, much like the Greeks calling Persephone Kore ("the maiden") or the Furies Eumenides ("the kindly ones"), out of fear of invoking their wrath.

From the author’s perspective, Māra is a deity of borders and transitions—present in all liminal spaces. She appears at life’s most challenging moments, such as birth, marriage, and death. She is also the keeper and milker of cattle, a healer who provides magical herbs, and a guardian of thresholds. She is connected to milling, sometimes forgetting her golden knife at the mill, and her symbol, the black snake, is invoked in spells to grind flour in the middle of the sea—altering reality itself.

Ultimately, Māra is a deity worthy of study, and those who explore her myths will likely reach their own conclusions. She exemplifies the complexity of ancient beliefs, which cannot be easily categorized as "god of X" or "goddess of Y." Her ambivalent nature is not a flaw or a misunderstanding—it is intrinsic to who she is. She stands at the threshold of change, whether for good or ill. She is as capable of taking as she is of giving.

I apologise if it sounds like a really weird question, but it’s hard to phrase it correctly. Is it Anglo Saxon myth, or Arthurian Legend? Ive been curiously researching about the mythical monsters and creatures of different regions for a couple moths but i cannot pinpoint which mythology is mainly associated with England. I know anglo saxon myth does not have many surviving sources, and we cannot use Norse myth as a template as we do not know what was attested. So what would Reddit say is the most infamous and iconic?

Thanks in advance.

Of the all pantheons in human mythos, which of the gods would be the patrons of assassins and killers or have them in there relm of influence?

I know of a couple Greek ones like Oedipus or Perseus. I'm curious about the different kinds of responses to these prophecies? There's the typical "leave baby on the mountainside to be adopted by random farmer or whatever" response which, if there are more, go ahead and list them. But do you know of any myths from any culture where the parents raised the child anyway or didn't try to change their fate?

There are probably so many of these kinds of prophecies but I'm drawing a blank haha

Here is a fun one. First of all, I am not trying to convince you of anything. It is just a thought experiment.

Consider how pretty every culture has believed in otherworldly beings: dwarves, mountain spirits, poltergeist, djinns, skinwalker, big foot, what have you.

What if all these are the same or similar phenomena interpreted trough a different cultural lence? Consider how the Aztecs interpreted a man riding a horse as half man, half deer. On remote islands there are stories of beings emerging out of the sea, as a ship.

If you’re Christian, youll see angels. In the Forrest’s of Northern Europe, you see elf’s and gnomes. In the modern, futuristic and tech oriented era, its aliens.

I mentioned this to a friend. He introduced me to «daimonic reality» (which I have not read ahah). But the idea is this: the author (Harpur) takes these experiences very seriously. He has compared various encounters trough time and space, and believe they represent a very real part of the universe. Not exactly real, but yet… real. A manifestation of something we cannot comprehend (and has been demonized by the Christian church, leaving us in a lot of confusion).

I am open to it. Our ancestor seems to have taken spirits and magic and the like extremely seriously.