Curious to know what you guys think ?

When interviewed by beloved Bigfoot personalities Cliff Barackmann and James 'Bobo' Fay on their 'Bigfoot and Beyond' podcast (March 15, 2023), DP is asked if he plans to release a book with updates since some cases get solved over time. Barackmann suggests that instead of writing a new Missing 411 book, DP releases a Found 411 book.

Bigfoot devotees Cliff Barackmann and James 'Bobo' Fay hosted DP on their 'Bigfoot and Beyond' podcast.

Missing 411 expert DP immediately rejects the idea, stating that the missing persons who match his profile points are rarely found. A quick dive into relevant contemporary sources reveals that this assertion is not entirely accurate. This OP analyzes three Missing 411 cases, all from Minnesota, that continue to perplex readers of Missing 411 books to this day.

Assessing Missing 411 claims

DP claims that searchers could not locate John Long

"John Long was a logger working at the Tomaro Timber Company near Echo Trail. On April 10, 1963, John was going to take a hike along the Moose River to watch spawning fish.. He took his .22-caliber rifle with him for protection. When John failed to return by the following day, fellow workers went to the river and searched, but they couldn't find him. The workers returned to their camp and notified law enforcement. The local sheriff organized a four-day ground search of the river area and also had planes fly the Moose River. Searchers couldn't locate John."

Did searchers find John Long?

DP's presentation of the 1963 John Long case is not particularly... long. In fact, the entire case in 'Eastern United States' is summarized in just two short paragraphs. In the book, it is claimed that searchers were unsuccessful in finding Long.

While it is technically true that searchers failed to locate John Long, he was found alive after twelve days. Searchers did not find him—two trappers did. On April 23, 1963, the Minneapolis Star reports that the missing lumberman was rescued by William Richards and John Kostnich. They offered to immediately lead Long out of the forest, but the tired Ely man refused. Instead, they left him some food, and the next day, he was taken to the home of William T. Mattson of Iron. In the Minneapolis Star, Long summarizes his experience by stating:

"You don't come out the same as you went in. I've surely got a lot of things to talk about."

The Minneapolis Star - 23 April, 1963

DP claims Earl Sommerville was never found

"Earl Somerville was a logger employed by the Clayton Peterson Logging Camp eighteen miles southwest of Loman, Minnesota. On November 5, 1957, Somerville left the camp and headed into a swampy area to hunt grouse. He was never found. Authorities from the United States and Canada searched the border area; and they had assistance from employees of the Minnesota and Ontario paper companies."

Was Earl Sommerville never found?

In 'Eastern United States', DP claims that logger Earl Sommerville went missing on November 5, despite the fact that he disappeared on November 2. Furthermore, DP asserts that Sommerville was never found, when in fact he was located in good condition after just three days. An article in the St. Cloud Times (November 6, 1957) states:

"Earl Sommerville, 48, of Renville, Minn., was found as a search crew of about 50 state rangers and Minnesota and Ontario Paper company forestry men assembled for another day of search.

Several cars carrying searchers parked along a woods track trail, about 18 miles southwest of of Loman, Minn., started honking horns. Sommerville’s shouts were then heard. He was found about a half mile from the trail, near the Black river. He had wandered about six miles from where he entered the woods."

St. Cloud Times - November 6, 1957

DP claims that C.H. Bordwell was never found and that 'a human life was lost'

"A search was conducted of the area where Bordwell was last seen, and he was not located. Again, a healthy person disappears, is never found, and the search is terminated. I want all readers to take a breath here and realize this is a human life that was completely lost. Bordwell was not lost in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. He was eighteen miles from his house. How does this happen? Why can't bloodhounds find certain people who disappear?"

Was a human life lost?

In 'Eastern United States' (page 14), DP delves into the intricacies of the C.H. Bordwell case from 1944. Despite Bordwell going missing near Keewatin, Minnesota, DP erroneously asserts that Bordwell disappeared in Maine. Luckily, DP correctly acknowledges that Bordwell, who was picking berries in a forest, did not vanish in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

Then, DP informs its readers that the search for C.H. Bordwell was terminated without the man being found. Instead of citing any sources to support this assertion, DP laments the fact that a human life 'was completely lost'. As it turns out, Bordwell was found alive two days after his disappearance. An article in the St. Cloud Times (August 2, 1944) states:

"C. H. Bordwell, musical director of Keewatin schools, was back at his home today, after being missing 48 hours. He was found yesterday afternoon by Ernest and John Schutte, mine workers who operate a store here. Bordwell disappeared Sunday while picking berries. In the 48 hours he was missing he had traveled less than four miles from the place he was last seen in the little swamp country."

The St. Cloud Times - August 2, 1944

What is the future of Found 411?

Could it be argued that Cliff Barackmann has a valid point in suggesting a Found 411 book? Not only because some cases get solved years later, but also because Missing 411 experts often fail to 'solve' cases that were successfully explained days after a person went missing. If the combined efforts of Missing 411 experts are not enough, should they accept outside help?

Additionally, there are no indications that these three Minnesota men were Missing 411 victims to begin with. Should future editions of Missing 411 books reflect this reality, or should no corrections be made? The following summary is fairly apt: much-maligned Montanan movie maker made multiple massive mistakes, misled millions.

https://www.backpacker.com/survival/deaths-in-national-parks/

Backpacher magazine filed a FOIA and was given 17 years worth of records, across all National Parks. With that data, they produced this well-written piece that is worth the read.

A conclusion: "

The Average Victim in the National Parks…

Is more likely to be male than female: While men and women make up approximately equal portions of national park visitors, men accounted for 80 percent of deaths in national parks where authorities recorded the victim’s gender.

Can be almost any age: Members of all age groups were represented similarly among fatalities. (The exception? Children under 14, who made up a smaller share of deaths than other groups.)

Drowns or dies of natural causes: Drowning was the most common cause of death for visitors up to age 55, after which medical issues surpassed it."

Hello!

So I’ve been really intrigued with Missing 411 and all of these interesting disappearances like Yuba County. I find the ideas, theories, stories, and mysteries so fascinating and I love to learn about them. I started off learning about these cases by Wendigoon and The Lore Lodge.

I know the books don’t necessarily go into as much depth like The Lore Lodge and other documentaries from what I heard, but I still would like to get a book!

I’m debating on either the Western US & Canada book or the Eastern book, I know it doesn’t matter which you start on, but I’m more curious about the content.

I live in the East and I prefer the geography with all the thick and dense forests (assuming where the author divides the line of west and east) instead of the deserts and canyons of the West.

But I think I can recall someone saying the Eastern book mostly talks about cases of Children. (I cannot confirm if true or not) And I’m really looking for the book that has all different kinds of stories and characters, like a mix of cases of adults going missing and children going missing, and I prefer more modern stories like 1960-Present instead of like the 1800’s.

So considering the fact I’d prefer a book with a mix of both Adult and Kid cases (not just kids), more modern disappearances, and just all around interesting and mysterious cases, which book should I get that fits my interests? Does one book do more than the other? Thank you so much!

We've seen a recent uptick in posts and comments that break one or more of the sub rules. As a reminder:

Before posting, please note the following:

1. This is not a fan forum. While we encourage those supporting Paulides to post, this subreddit is first-and-foremost a discussion forum. That means people who support his books/channel AND people who disagree with him are welcome to post here. Asking "why would you post here if you don't like him" means you did not read the description of the sub...so, stop asking that question. If you want some reading on "why do skeptics bother posting here", I recommend these posts. If you'd like to read skeptics stating what they find positive about Paulides, there's a post for that too.
2. Please read the rules on the sidebar. The mod team will enforce the rules. Speaking of the mods - please know that we all have different backgrounds and different opinions and that we do our very best to make sure to moderate this sub fairly. The most important rule is to RESPECT THE MISSING, THE DEAD, and their families. Suggesting (as a recent post and comments did) that the missing was "banging hooker" is a one-way ticket to a ban. Doesn't matter if that's true. we do not make unsubstantiated claims that could end up slandering the missing/dead who can't defend themselves. The second most important rule is "Don't be a dick." If you disagree with someone's opinion or perspective, it is fair to question their position. It is not okay to name call or badger someone. Keep it respectful.
3. Please search the task bar to see if your question(s) or cases have already been discussed. This is particularly important if you're new. This isn't just a sub rule; it's a Reddit rule.
4. Please note that we DO NOT allow active missing person cases that have no relation to the criteria of Missing411 and/or have no been discussed by Paulides. We get at least 2-3 missing person posts per day and, for the reasons we stated in rule #4, we will remove those posts.
5. If you're new to the sub and you need help finding answers to questions, please don't hesitate to contact any of the mods and we will do our best to direct you to an existing thread.
6. Do not spam post. Do not drop links without explanations of relevance. Do not use this forum as your personal advertising space for your channel or podcast. If your podcast/channel is decent, chances are someone in the sub will bring it up organically. There's also no issue with you dropping a link in a comment to a pertinent case.

Haven't heard much about their relationship. I know Art was overseas during the time DP was doing the M411 thing so he wasn't on Art's show much. Anyone know what the vibe was? Art was one of the greatest hosts period, so it'd be interesting what the rapport was. Anyone have any thoughts?

Did a 'check in' on DP's channel. Seen a brand new video, so I skimmed the transcript, and I had to stop, then watch this segment in his outro. Could it be that Paulides is grabbing his 'ideas' from older movies and TV series?? If anyone does have any other examples, please do list them.

Has anyone looked into a possible psychological explanation for cases where someone is found extremely far from where they disappeared, having seemingly traveled in a straight line in a random direction after becoming lost?

Reading those stories immediately brought to mind the Fugue State (or psychogenic fugue, is a rare psychiatric phenomenon characterized by reversible amnesia for one's identity in conjunction with unexpected wandering or travel). Its not unlikely that upon becoming lost someone could enter a delirium or fugue state that causes them to walk in a direction regardless of terrain, and even removing clothes when not hypothermic makes sense in a state of amnesia or delirium. Those that are found (alive) to have traveled many miles despite injuries, hunger and terrain are found in a delirious or amnestic state which feels like even more correlation with fugue symptoms.

I'm speculating but this could be either caused by severe mental stress or some evolutionary survival instinct that could lead someone who is lost and without resources to possibly stumbling across help or a landmark, giving them slightly better odds at survival than dying of exposure without leaving the area they became lost in. Maybe both but theres really no studies or any hard science that links disappearances to fugue states because it's just not common enough to study.

Obviously that wouldn't explain all cases like the ones where the person dissapeared in minutes and could not be found for days but I feel like it's a reasonable psychological explanation for those disappearances.

Please note:

The Ronald McGee case is covered in the book 'Western United States' (2011). The OP also delves into DP's views on cases where young children go missing and discusses three disturbing trends that he has observed.

Two-year-old Ronald McGee went missing in February of 1942.

Ronald McGee goes missing

Eighty-two years ago today, Ronald McGee's lifeless and severely scratched body was discovered on the side of a hill in the Arizona desert, marking the end of a four-day search. The young boy was last seen in the morning of February 7, 1942, playing in a desert dry wash with his four-year-old brother near Highway 89, approximately half a mile northwest of the mining community of Congress, Yavapai County.

At some point, the older brother returned home, leaving the two-year-old boy by himself in the desert. When their mother realized her young son was missing, she and neighbors searched the immediate area where the boys had been playing. Despite their best efforts, the search was unsuccessful. Sheriff Willis Butler was contacted, and he initiated a large-scale search involving practically all male residents of the mining community, soldiers, bloodhounds from the State Prison at Florence, airplanes from Luke Field in Phoenix, and Boy Scouts.

The search was concentrated in an area of five square miles and was conducted on both sides of Highway 89, but the combined efforts of air and ground crews failed to yield any footprints or other clues. Due to a lack of gathered evidence, Sheriff Willis Butler concluded that Ronald McGee had likely been abducted by a motorist, lamenting, "It’s as if the earth opened up and swallowed him".

https://preview.redd.it/xln977snishc1.jpg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b0028b5e760e0162099a5123b7c95dcf85bd33a

Ronald McGee was only lightly dressed at the time of his disappearance, and the hope of finding the boy alive quickly faded as desert temperatures dropped sharply at night. By the third day, only a small skeleton force of expert trackers remained—the search had transitioned into a recovery mission.

The relevance to Missing 411

The disappearance of Ronald McGee is of special interest to Missing 411 researchers for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, it ties in with the Missing 411 scenario of a young child being found far from the location where they were last seen. Contemporary Associated Press articles report that the body of the two-year-old boy was discovered by searchers twelve miles northwest of Congress, notably at a higher elevation.

Secondly, it meets many of the Missing 411 profile points. After researching thousands of missing persons cases, DP found that certain factors seemed to appear in case after case. In his first Missing 411 books, they are referred to as 'unique factors in disappearances'. Missing 411 researchers use these profile points, or unique factors, to identify Missing 411 cases and to establish previously undetected patterns.

The following Missing 411 profile points are present in the Ronald McGee case:

• rural disappearance
• young child
• point of separation (the older brother left him by himself in the desert)
• canines unable to pick up a scent
• suspected abduction
• shoes removed
• clothing removed
• body found a considerable distance away
• body found at a higher elevation
• body found with severe scratches
• body found in an area with boulders

State Prison canines failed to pick up Ronald McGee's scent.

Lost children in a Missing 411 context

DP has dedicated years to researching thousands of missing persons cases. Hundreds of these cases, meeting his profile points, were documented in his first three Missing 411 books: 'Western United States' (2011), 'Eastern United States' (2011), and 'North America and Beyond' (2013). On page XV of 'North America and Beyond', he confidently assures readers that the cases in these books "are not normal missing-person cases".

For many devoted Missing 411 enthusiasts, the cases involving young children traveling significant distances are among the most intriguing and compelling aspects of DP's research. In some of the more extreme instances, children not only traverse vast distances in rugged wilderness but are also discovered at higher elevations—locations they seemingly could not have reached on their own.

In the aforementioned Missing 411 books, DP draws attention to three troubling trends he has observed concerning the disappearance of many young children:

1. the cases do not make any sense.
2. investigators fail to realize the child was abducted.
3. law enforcement agencies and news media lie to the public.

Bewildering cases

In a Coast to Coast segment uploaded to YouTube (v=XbHmzM0tzeA), DP discusses his Missing 411 research. Radio show host George Knapp and DP both agree that these disappearances are not ordinary occurrences, and DP even goes so far as to claim they are "very calculated". When the topic shifts specifically to cases involving young children, DP states:

"I don't think that these little children on their own could cover the distances that are described by search and rescue teams and journalists. That's why these cases are included in the books—because it's unbelievable."

Some young children who go missing are discovered many miles from where they were last seen.

While DP finds 'unbelievable' distances fascinating, it should be noted that in his books, he also includes many cases where young children were found near the location they went missing. One good example is the Jimmie Franck case, in which a four-year-old boy disappeared from his parents' farm in Winthrop, Iowa, on March 7, 1961. This case is featured in 'North America and Beyond'.

Jimmie Franck went missing "just before the worst snowstorm of the winter" hit Iowa (The Spokane Chronicle - March 11, 1961). The Cedar Rapids Gazette (March 9, 1961) reports that the four-year-old was last seen in a barnyard with his father. At 2 pm, the boy complained about being cold, so his father sent him to the house. According to the same newspaper (April 1, 1961), the boy's mother and siblings were not at home at the time, and the parents did not realize their young son was missing until 6 pm.

In unrelenting winter conditions, hundreds of searchers tirelessly scoured the surrounding areas for Jimmie Franck, but their efforts were ultimately unsuccessful. On April 1, when much of the snow had melted, a new search was launched, and the boy's body was found in less than an hour in a small grass-filled gully a mere three hundred and eighty-five yards from his home. During the initial search, rescuers faced great difficulties searching the gullies. Deputy Sheriff Ray Moline explained that "the snow is still piled high in places we want to search" and added, "the gullies are still drifted full" (The Cedar Rapids Gazette - March 19, 1961).

What happened to Jimmie Franck? The Cedar Rapids Gazette (April 1, 1961) states, "the boy had apparently become mired in the muddy field and had stepped out of his boots", and also adds, "authorities said the boy apparently was trying to crawl toward his home when he collapsed". According to the Mason City Globe-Gazette (April 1, 1961), "authorities said that the spot where the boy’s body was found apparently was buried in drifts ‘as tall as a man’s shoulders’ for weeks after the blizzard struck".

Authorities concluded that the four-year-old had frozen to death, most likely on the day he went missing.

A storm originating from the Atlantic Ocean hit Winthrop, Iowa, the day four-year-old Jimmie Franck disappeared.

As illustrated by the Jimmie Franck case, DP categorizes a diverse range of cases as Missing 411 cases. In the Coast to Coast interview with George Knapp, DP briefly outlines the stringent method he employs to determine whether a case merits inclusion in one of his books:

"I look at the facts and I say, 'This doesn't make any sense.'"

Unsatisfactory investigations

In Missing 411 research it is posited that some missing persons were abducted in unconventional ways. On page XVII of 'Eastern United States', DP downplays the likelihood of human involvement, especially considering that many of these cases occur in rural areas. Later in the same book (page 214), to drive home this point, DP asks the rhetorical question: "How can so many alleged kidnappers be lurking in woods and rural settings?".

When children go missing, investigative agencies often routinely explore the possibility of foul play. However, when a child is found and the evidence does not point toward abduction, it is typically concluded that no abduction occurred. In 'Eastern United States' (page XVII), DP expresses his dissatisfaction with said investigations:

"Many of the disappearances occurred in very remote areas where there were no other cars or people present, yet there were indicators that these children may have been abducted, a very troubling and serious possibility that I'm sure law enforcement never adequately or thoroughly investigated."

Even in the case of Jimmie Franck, investigators explored the possibility of foul play. According to the Cedar Rapids Gazette (March 10, 1963), a then unidentified car had been spotted near the farm, but it turned out to belong to a traveling salesman who had nothing to do with the case. Other newspapers, such as the Eau Claire Leader, reported similar concerns.

The Eau Claire Leader - March 10, 1961

Shaping the narrative

As we have already seen, DP likes to pose questions to his readers. One of these questions is found on page XVII of 'Eastern United States', and it reads: "Does it seem like someone is trying to manipulate the story?".

DP does not go into further detail, but previously touched upon this subject when commenting on the Brennan Hawkins case. Hawkins was an eleven-year-old Boy Scout who disappeared from the Bear River Boy Scout Camp in the Uinta Mountains, Utah, in 2005. When researching the case, DP identified two, to him, contradictory pieces of information:

• the sheriff stated that Hawkins was found on a ridge about five miles from the camp.
• the searcher who discovered Hawkins described him as wet and muddy.

In 'Western United States', DP elaborates on why these two premises cannot both be true at the same time. He also casts doubts on law enforcement agencies and news media, depicting them as gatekeepers withholding crucial information. DP writes (page 209):

"Hmm, the searcher who had found the boy clearly stated that the boy was found wet. How would Brennan have gotten wet if he was on top of a ridge? The thousands of newspaper articles I have read in the last several years have shown me that law enforcement and the press try to twist the facts at times to fit the story they want to place in front of the public. I’ve seen this too many times."

In 'North America and Beyond', DP adopts a somewhat more diplomatic stance toward law enforcement when summarizing the 1958 disappearance of forty-five-year-old Montana hunter Sam Adams. Investigators determined, based on the evidence, that Adams was most likely killed by a grizzly bear. DP writes (page 135):

"I don't fault law enforcement for trying to explain away a complicated situation. Communities expect law enforcement agencies to always have the ability to explain anything; that's the comforting aspect of local government making the community feel as though everything is under control."

Some young children who go missing are discovered at higher elevations.

Assessing Missing 411 claims

1) DP claims that expert trackers spotted Ronald McGee's footprints twelve miles north of Congress on the fourth day of the search

"Searchers were running out of locations to look for the boy, but they continued to move north toward rugged mountains and across a major roadway. [...] At 10:30 a.m. on the fourth day of the search, two expert trackers, Jack Crist and John Bond, thought they found faint tracks in a very isolated area far north of Congress. Highway Patrolman James Cramer and Sheriff Homer Keeton joined the trackers after they inexplicably saw tracks going up the side of Tenderfoot Peak, an unbelievable twelve miles north of Congress. Four hundred and twenty-eight feet up from the desert floor in an area strewn with large boulders and small bushes, searchers found the body of Ronald McGee."

Twelve fateful miles

The Associated Press wrote numerous articles on the Ronald McGee disappearance, and it seems that much of DP's account in 'Western United States' is derived from these articles. According to the Associated Press, the body of the two-year-old boy was found at 10:30 a.m. (Mountain War Time) on the fourth day of the search by the aforementioned searchers. The news agency also reports that the body was located on the side of Tenderfoot Peak, twelve miles northwest of Congress. One of their articles, published in the Deseret News on February 12, 1942, states:

"The body of 2-year-old Ronald McGee, lost since early Saturday, was found 'scratched and torn' today on the side of Tenderfoot Peak, about 12 miles northwest of here, Sheriff Butler reported".

The Desert News - February 12, 1942

Despite evidently having read Associated Press articles (he even references some of them), DP still gets crucial details wrong. In his above quote, DP claims that expert trackers Jack Crist and John Bohn (whose last name is sometimes spelled Bond) 'found faint tracks in a very isolated area far north of Congress' at 10:30 am on the fourth day of the search. However, this portrayal is incorrect as they discovered the first tracks the day before.

On the third day, expert trackers Jack Crist and John Bohn from nearby Wickenburg set out on a solo search, suspecting that the young boy had wandered westward. Shortly thereafter, they discovered the first footprints of the two-year-old. On February 22, 1942, the Nebraska Daily News-Press republished an article from the Wickenburg Sun, in which Crist is interviewed. Crist begins by stating:

"Both John Bohn and I had a strong hunch that the child had gone west of Congress so we drove our car to the old Congress road and from there started looking for tracks in the sandy washes. The first we found were in a wash about three-feet wide, with a two-foot bank, and in it were six distinct boot tracks very plain."

Jack Crist and John Bohn, from nearby Wickenburg, located the body of Ronald McGee.

Jack Crist then explains that they went back to Congress to inform the authorities before returning to the location of the footprints. In a large sandy wash, about twenty feet wide, a dozen or more footprints were discovered. The footprints made the trackers think that Ronald McGee initially did not perceive himself as lost. Crist continues:

"It is possible that the child was not lost, but merely playing and looking around at this point, because he passed within 600 feet of a ranch house. The hard ground revealed no tracks, of course, so we scanned every sandy wash and knew we were on the right trail at last."

In their reporting of the Ronald McGee case, the Associated Press places significant emphasis on the distance that McGee is said to have traversed. The question thus arises: was the body of the two-year-old really discovered twelve miles northwest of Congress? In his Wickenburg Sun interview, Jack Crist clarifies the actual distance and location:

“About three miles west of Congress the trail turned abruptly north, and at this point he circled and re-circled, we then found toe prints and knew the boot-shoe he was wearing had worn out, and he finally took them off. There is no question but what the child walked 12 miles, or more in a meandering course, and in circling about hunting for a place to climb out of the washes, but we found him in a little shallow hole a little more than three miles west and a little north of Congress."

The Nebraska News-Press - February 22, 1942.

In his Coast to Coast interview, DP categorically dismissed the notion that 'these young children could cover the distances described by search and rescue teams and journalists'. However, evidence from the Ronald McGee case clearly shows that the young boy had indeed wandered an estimated twelve miles or more in total. If McGee managed to cover such a distance, how can DP summarily conclude that other children did not cover similar distances?

Where is Tenderfoot Peak located?

Associated Press articles claim that Ronald McGee was found on the side of Tenderfoot Peak, but there is no mountain in Arizona with that name. Instead, there is a Tenderfoot Mountain near Dillon in Colorado. According to the naming conventions outlined by the U.S. Board on Geographic Names, two distinct mountains within the United States cannot share the same name. However, there is a Tenderfoot Hill adjacent to Congress. Please refer to the satellite images below.

According to Jack Crist, Ronald McGee's body was discovered 'a little more than three miles west and a little north of Congress'.

The mountains directly northwest of Congress are known as the Date Creek Mountains. Based on Jack Crist's account, it is confirmed that Ronald McGee did not cross these mountains, as his body was found 'a little more than three miles west and a little north of Congress'. Satellite images show a hilly section at this very location, just to the south of the Date Creek Mountains. Given its relative proximity to Tenderfoot Peak, could this hilly section have been informally referred to by locals as Tenderfoot Peak?

2) DP claims that the disappearance of Ronald McGee is 'a modern-day mystery'

"The coroner listed the cause of death as exposure. What happened to Ronald McGee is a modern-day mystery. No, I don’t think anyone believes that a two-year-old boy could walk across twelve miles of desert and climb a four-hundred-foot peak, especially when the coroner reported that he felt the boy died the first day he was missing. I did not find one article that reported a theory on how Ronald arrived at the location where his body was found or how his body was torn—yes, torn—and horribly scratched."

A lingering modern-day mystery?

One of the foundations of Missing 411 research is arguably DP's refusal to accept conclusions drawn by law enforcement agencies and coroners. Instead of acknowledging the evidence gathered, DP labels the Ronald McGee case 'a modern-day mystery' and claims he could not find any articles explaining how McGee 'arrived at the location where his body was found'.

The stellar achievement of Jack Crist and John Bohn is, of course, mentioned in countless articles. An example is an Associated Press article published in the Salt Lake City Tribune on February 12, 1942. The article states:

“Two veteran trackers, John Bond and Jack Crist of near-by Wickenburg, picked up the first trace of the child Tuesday. They followed his wavering footsteps into the desert, up through washes and finally to higher elevations."

The Salt Lake City Tribune - February 12, 1942

Readers of 'Western United States' are only presented with a fragmented picture of the case. The first time DP mentions any footprints being found is when he writes that expert trackers Jack Crist and John Bohn 'inexplicably' spotted Ronald McGee's footprints going up a hill twelve miles northwest of Congress. No background information is provided on why these expert trackers were searching for McGee so far from the location where he was last seen. It does not seem to cross DP's mind that these expert trackers were mere yards from the boy's body because they expertly tracked his footprints to that very location.

The small search group that found the body included Coroner Edward A. Girard (The Sacramento Bee - February 13, 1942). Later, during an inquest, the returned verdict stated that "death resulted from exposure, thirst, and hunger" (The Nebraska Daily News-Press - February 22, 1942). Therefore, DP's assertion that the Ronald McGee case is 'a modern-day mystery' is incorrect, as it ceased being a mystery on this very day eighty-two years ago.

According to the Associated Press, Ronald McGee's body was discovered on the side of a hill in the Arizona desert.

Horribly scratched and torn

Ronald McGee's deceased body was described as 'horribly scratched and torn'. In 'Eastern United States' (page 315), there is a chapter titled 'Conclusions' where DP discusses children being found with scratches. DP writes:

"There are many cases listed in both books where children are found with scratches listed over their entire body. Other cases describe childrens (sic) bodies 'torn' with severe lacerations when they are found. I've never been one to believe that children will indiscriminately run through a thorny area ripping and scratching their body, that does not make sense. Many of these cases describe parents and law enforcement claiming the missing person was kidnapped. If the victim was taken against their will and the perpetrator didn't care about the welfare of the individual, maybe the victim was carried under the suspects arm as they ran from the scene, through the woods, through thorns and scratching the victims (sic) body. This scenario may explain the victim having scratches from head to toe."

DP attributes scratches to a reckless and inconsiderate 'perpetrator' carrying the child 'through the woods' and 'through thorns'.

In his interview with the Wickenburg Sun, expert tracker Jack Crist does not depict a scenario where two-year-old Ronald McGee was 'carried under the suspect's arm as they fled the scene'. Instead, Crist states:

"Up until the last half mile, the child was not confused nor apparently frightened because he walked into no bushes and encountered very little cactus."

Despite appearing unafraid for most of the time he was lost, investigators determined that Ronald McGee's last moments in life were not as composed. An Associated Press article published in the Tucson Daily Star (February 12, 1942) reports that "fear was written on the child's tear-stained face". The same article also notes that the boy's blue pants were found "hanging on a bush near the body".

DP's unorthodox perspective on how lost children get their scratches is contradicted by the information found in contemporary sources. For example, in the previously referred-to article in the San Bernardino Daily Sun, Deputy Sheriff Homer Keeton explains the cause of Ronald McGee's scratches, stating that "the child apparently had beaten his way through the mesquite and heavy brush in the darkness".

No evidence linked the disappearance of two-year-old Ronald McGee to any unconventional abductors.

A hypothetical attempt to reconstruct the Ronald McGee case, combining contemporary articles and the Missing 411 framework, results in the following scenario:

Two-year-old Ronald McGee wanders unsupervised in the desert near Congress. He plays in sandy washes, but soon finds himself lost miles away from home. Despite his young age, McGee manages to remain calm and avoids getting scratches. Suddenly, he encounters the Missing 411 abductor, who appears out of nowhere. Carrying McGee under his arm, the Missing 411 abductor dashes through heavy brush, scratching the boy in the process. After half a mile, the Missing 411 abductor lets McGee go and leaves the area never to be seen or heard from again. McGee walks halfway up a hill where he succumbs to exposure, hunger, and thirst.

DP should acknowledge to Missing 411 enthusiasts who have bought 'Western United States' that such a scenario is quite implausible.

The ramifications of the Ronald McGee case on the Missing 411 framework

The Ronald McGee case bears all the hallmarks of a classic Missing 411 case. Unfortunately, for Missing 411 researchers, it also highlights the inherent inadequacy of the Missing 411 framework. It exposes that:

• events DP personally finds 'unbelievable' are actually mundane and ordinary, such as two-year-old McGee traversing twelve miles or more.
• DP fails to account for inaccuracies and contradictions in newspaper articles. Instead, on page XVII of 'Western United States', DP declares, "Every story in this book is one hundred percent factual".
• there is no reliable and objective Missing 411 method for determining whether McGee and others were abducted by the Missing 411 abductor. As revealed in the Coast to Coast interview with George Knapp, DP's approach merely consists of him 'looking at the facts' and subjectively concluding that a case 'does not make any sense'.
• profile points cannot be used to identify Missing 411 cases and patterns, as all the profile points in the Ronald McGee case align perfectly with McGee wandering off and succumbing to hunger, thirst, and exposure. No profile points have ever been empirically linked to any unconventional abductors.

DP's dissatisfaction with law enforcement and news media arguably stems from their 'failure' to attribute disappearances to his Missing 411 phenomenon. In 'Eastern United States', as we have already seen, he asks his readers: "Does it seem like someone is trying to manipulate the story?".

Given DP's penchant for asking questions, he should ask himself whether he has ever manipulated any of the stories in his Missing 411 books, and if so, why. Perhaps he could start with the Ronald McGee case.

A photo of Ronald McGee published in the Stockton Record on February 11, 1942

Am I crazy? Does this not exist?

I swear I’ve heard the story 10x (including the 411 books) about a young male hiker who was hiking the coast in Kauai, had foot problems to waved down a helicopter asking for a ride back, pilot said it wasn’t life or death so he couldn’t take him but offered to take his backpack ….. then the backpack sat at the rangers office for 2 months before anyone noticed and the guys been missing since?

I’ve been googling to no avail? Sound familiar to anyone?

We've had M411, M411 The Hunted, the books, M411 Truckers, and now the titillating Amnesia series, each episode breathtaking and breaking new ground. What topic would you like to see Dave cover next?

Anyone know where I can find the full video of les stroud (survivor man) trying to retrace Keith’s steps and see if he can make the distance in the 19 hour time frame? I found 1.5 minute trailer for it but not the full video

I’m in Canada and was telling a new friend about the 411 documentaries and looking them up now they are all blocked in canada! When and why did this happen? Does anyone have links to any of them ? Like Missing 411, The hunted, the UFO connection and Vanished? I’m so bummed out! They don’t even seem to be on other streaming services

Paulides has a new book. I cannot be the first to note this.

Please note:

The Jackie Copeland and Harold King cases are covered in the book 'Eastern United States', while the Rebecca Henderson/Pam Davis/Christie Davis case is covered in 'North America and Beyond'. The OP also delves into the swamp profile point.

Over the decades, many lost children and adults have been found in or near swamps.

Jackie Copeland goes missing

On May 14, 1950, two-and-a-half-year-old Jackie Copeland was having a picnic with his family on an oil well property near Pleasantville, Pennsylvania. Copeland's father had been hired for oil well repairs, and while he was busy with repairs and the mother occupied with preparing lunch, Copeland's sister came up to them and said, 'Jackie isn't here.'

Hundreds of searchers participated in the search, noting that there seemed to be no place for the young boy to hide. Seventeen hours after he went missing, Jackie Copeland was found alive by an oil worker named Leroy Bevier. Bevier had temporarily left the search to perform maintenance work at a pump house. It was near this pump house that a very surprised Bevier spotted Copeland behind a tree.

When interviewed at the hospital about his night in the wilderness, Jackie Copeland recounted encountering what he described as a 'great throbbing giant' and hearing the distant howls of wild animals. DP explains that Copeland reported seeing a creature scampering into the brush before his disappearance. He also writes that the location where Copeland was found was completely surrounded by impassable swamps—swamps he could not have traversed alone.

Harold King goes missing

Three-year-old Harold King from Washburn, Pennsylvania, went missing on September 7, 1936, while visiting his grandparents' farm. Two hundred and fifty searchers scoured the dense woods in a desperate attempt to find the lost child. Bloodhounds were even brought in from northwestern Michigan.

Three days into the search, family members and neighbors heard nocturnal sounds emanating from a swamp three miles away from the grandparents' farm. It was there that they found the young boy alive. When discussing the disappearance and the subsequent search, DP mentions witnesses hearing a scream, King being quickly taken from the scene, and bloodhounds refusing to search.

Rebecca Henderson, Pam Davis, and Christie Davis go missing

On July 28, 1973, sixty-nine-year-old Rebecca Henderson set out with her two great-granddaughters, Pam Davis (three years old), and Christie Davis (two years old), to a local grocery store in Ocala, Florida, but never returned. The following day, the children's mother reported them missing, and on July 30, Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis were found in a rattlesnake-infested swamp forest many miles from the store.

Rebecca Henderson appeared dazed and confused, unable to explain what had happened to her and the young children. Pam Davis also could not provide investigators with a detailed account of their ordeal. Despite a lengthy and intense search effort that took a heavy toll on the 2,000-member search force, Christie Davis was never found. On August 9, the search for her was suspended, and Sheriff Don Moreland stated, 'We have found nothing at all.'

DP discusses the impossibility of these three individuals covering 20 miles in 24 hours in the Florida heat. He concludes that something must have occurred in the swamp, leading to Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis experiencing hallucinations and the separation of the trio. DP also asserts that Henderson would never have voluntarily left her two young great-grandchildren.

The broader picture

Swamps in a Missing 411 context

In the first Missing 411 book, 'Western United States', swamp cases play a relatively minor role. However, in the two subsequent books, the number of swamp cases increased drastically, as shown in the table below.

DP explains his swamp profile point in 'Eastern United States' (page XV), writing:

"Many of the missing are found in the middle or on the perimeter of a swamp and/or briar patch. Some rescuers have commented on the unusual location a child is found in and how they don't understand how he or she got there. These are not locations that people would casually visit."

Swamps are a common element in both Missing 411 and Bigfoot research.

According to the Missing 411 framework, some missing persons are found in 'impossible' locations—places that should have been inaccessible to them. This perspective is further expanded upon by DP when discussing the 1950 Frieda Langer case. On page 276 of 'Eastern United States', DP writes:

"You cannot convince me that people seek out swamps to walk into and die. It makes no sense! //...// If a predator wanted to take a person into an area where they wouldn't be seen and a person wouldn't walk up on them, a swamp with high reeds would be ideal."

These two quotes demonstrate that the Missing 411 swamp profile point is based on the belief that missing persons do not willingly end up in swamps, leading to the conclusion that some type of predator is responsible. DP regularly claims that he rules out foul play and animal attacks before categorizing a missing persons case as a Missing 411 case, indicating that he thinks the predator in question is neither human nor animal.

It is worth noting that DP declares nothing will sway his convictions. Traditionally, researchers continuously reassess their views when presented with new data. The prevailing consensus outside of Missing 411 is that swamps are physically challenging terrains to traverse, and their wet conditions increase the risk of elemental exposure and death.

Swamps in DP's Bigfoot research

In 'Tribal Bigfoot', DP establishes a clear link between swamps and Bigfoot. On pages 217-218, he visits an area in California with 'a long history' of alleged Bigfoot sightings and mentions being 'immediately drawn to the region because of the swampy conditions'. DP then elaborates on the predatory nature of Bigfoot, writing that 'Bigfoot likes to stay near water' as it provides 'a nutritional source and an ambush location for other prey'. DP also addresses Bigfoot's formidable ability to traverse tough swamps.

Some believe Bigfoot is able to traverse swamps humans cannot.

On page 244 of the same book, DP talks to a local man who lives near a large swamp. The man tells DP that the area is almost impossible to traverse, but in the 1990s, he and his wife were awakened in the early morning hours 'by loud screams coming from the area of the swamps'. DP writes that the man and his wife 'could tell the creature was moving, as the location of the screams changed', concluding that 'there was no possible way that anyone could walk through this area in the middle of the night'.

As shown here, swamps have been a point of interest for DP in both his Bigfoot research and his Missing 411 research. Bear in mind that he published his Bigfoot books a couple of years before releasing his first Missing 411 books. In the three Missing 411 books mentioned in this OP, DP does not overtly acknowledge his Bigfoot research and the insights he gained from it, obscuring any potential overlaps between these two areas of research.

Assessing Missing 411 claims

1) DP claims that Jackie Copeland was found in an area completely surrounded by impassable swamps

"At 8:00 a.m. the morning following Jackie's disappearance, a man named Bevier was searching outside of the main area in a location where an oil repressuring plant was located. The area is completely surrounded by what many newspaper articles called 'impassable swamps'."

DP claims that the area where two-and-a-half-year-old Jackie Copeland was found is completely surrounded by impassable swamps. According to DP, these impassable swamps were mentioned by many newspapers, yet he fails to provide a single source to support his claim.

Jackie Copeland was found behind a tree near a pump house.

A possible reason why DP may have struggled to provide such sources is that Jackie Copeland did, in fact, not go missing in swamp-like terrain. Search efforts were concentrated around Tight Pinch Road, an area consisting of dry woodlands. Some sources indicating these dry conditions are listed in the table below.

Even the hero of the search, oil worker Leroy Bevier, confirms that the woods were dry. On May 16, 1950, the News-Herald published an extensive interview with him. In this article, Bevier explains why the bloodhounds failed to find Jackie Copeland:

"I think the bloodhounds were on the trail down that way, but they lost it because so many were over it, and is (sic) was so dry."

The News-Herald - May 16, 1950

Even if, for the sake of argument, we entertain the idea that the Tight Pinch Road area was surrounded by impassable swamps, young Jackie Copeland never left this area and, therefore, never had to traverse any swamps.

2) DP claims that oil worker Leroy Bevier was walking through swamps and that Jackie Copeland was found two miles from the picnic area

"As Mr. Bevier and a crew of searchers were walking through the swamps, he accidentally saw Jackie looking around the side of a tree, almost peering. Bevier called his name and Jackie answered. Jackie was found over two miles from the picnic and across swamps that were deemed impassable by search coordinators."

From time to time, it seems that DP does not critically reflect on the broader implications of the scenarios he constructs. Does he genuinely believe that Leroy Bevier must wade through impassable swamps every time he heads to the pump house to do maintenance work? There must be a more practical way for these oil workers.

On the morning Jackie Copeland was found, Leroy Bevier did not walk through any impassable swamps with other searchers. Instead, he drove his automobile to the pump house, located in a hollow near the edge of the forest. In an article published in the News-Herald on May 15, 1950, Bevier talks about his interaction with the sad and oil-smeared Copeland:

"I quieted him down by telling him I would take him to his daddy and mother and would take him on an automobile ride. We had a big time and he quieted right down. Then I wrapped him up warm in a heavy coat I luckily had along, and we set out. I thought he would be cold, from being out all night, but he was feverish. The hollow where the plant is often gets colder than other places, and a heavy damp dew was falling in the night."

The News-Herald - May 16, 1950

In 'Eastern United States', DP inexplicably omits Leroy Bevier's use of an automobile and the fact that the pump house could be easily accessed by road. Contrary to DP's assertion that Jackie Copeland was found two miles from the picnic area, Bevier explains that the distance was only three-quarters of a mile. Bevier states:

"He much (sic) have come down the lease road from the Tightpinch road. It will be a mystery to me always how he came down that road across the open field without being seen. The plant is just at the edge of the woods, about three-quarters of a mile from the lease house where the Copelands were."

The News-Herald - May 16, 1950

When concluding the Jackie Copeland case, DP finally offers his solution to the swamp conundrum. On page 201, DP writes:

"How could a two-year-old boy traverse impassable swamps without the aid of some type of mammal?"

DP never specifies the particular mammal he has in mind, but it must inevitably be one with the remarkable capacity to traverse impassable swamps while carrying a human being without being detected. Since it has already been determined that Jackie Copeland went missing in dry woodlands and only walked about three-quarters of a mile, this elusive mammal appears to be nothing more than an ad hoc creation on DP's part.

3) DP claims that Jackie Copeland saw a creature scampering into the brush before going missing

"The press wanted to hear how the boy got to his location in the swamp, what he had to drink or eat, and how he kept warm. Jackie first was asked why he left the picnic and here is his quote: 'He saw something peering at him from behind a big tree. When he approached, the creature scampered into the brush.' Jackie didn't explain anything more about leaving the picnic at that point."

The article DP is referencing is an Associated Press article from May 16, 1950. Contrary to the claims made in 'Eastern United States,' Jackie Copeland was not asked why he left the family picnic, what he had to eat/drink, and how he kept warm. More importantly, what DP claims to be a Copeland quote is, in fact, not a quote at all. Below is the article in question, where the journalist explains how Leroy Bevier found the young boy.

The Spokesman-Review - May 16, 1950

DP makes a series of perplexing decisions that, from a research standpoint, are quite irredeemable. He:

• takes ordinary running text written by a journalist and adds surrounding quotation marks, transforming it into a quote when it is not.
• assigns the so-called quote, containing adult language, to a young child who can barely speak.
• claims that the so-called quote is about what Jackie Copeland saw when he left the family picnic, whereas it is about Leroy Bevier finding Copeland near the pump house.
• omits the paragraph that explains that the previous two paragraphs are about Copeland ('It was a badly frightened, oil-smeared Jackie.').
• fails to realize that an actual Copeland quote would not have said 'he saw', 'at him', and 'he approached', but rather 'I saw', 'at me', and 'I approached'.

DP did not have to distort the Associated Press article to the extent that he did, as in it, Jackie Copeland did indeed talk about his ordeal. The journalist humorously describes how Copeland, from his hospital bed, 'contemplated with wonder the strange dark world from which he escaped after being lost all night'. DP quotes the following passage from the article:

"[He] recounted in child talk his adventure in an awful blackness, peopled by a great throbbing giant and a tall friendly tree and wild animals howling in the distance and the unfamiliar shouts of strangers prowling nearby."

Jackie Copeland spoke of a great throbbing giant and of a tall friendly tree.

While Jackie Copeland's account is open to interpretation, it is not entirely impossible that the 'awful blackness' refers to the night, the 'great throbbing giant' to the pump house, the 'tall friendly tree' to the tree he was found next to, the 'wild animals howling in the distance' to search dogs, and the 'unfamiliar shouts of strangers prowling nearby' to the shouts of the searchers looking for him.

DP, on the other hand, never makes any such connections. Instead, he suggests that the Jackie Copeland case might explain many other cases involving Pennsylvania children that he has covered. On page 201, DP writes:

"Jackie Copeland's explanation of what occurred to him could be a very sobering narrative of what might possibly be occurring with the plethora of missing children outlined in this book from the Pennsylvania area. Jackie had gone through a very frightening experience. In the safety of his parents' presence, he was able to recount certain elements of what happened."

However, it should be noted that no other children from Pennsylvania have mentioned any of the things Jackie Copeland mentioned.

4) DP claims that bloodhounds could not pick up Harold King's scent or refused to search

“Searchers were restricted in their search by heavy rains that hit the area the day after Harold went missing. The local sheriff did bring in bloodhounds to search, but they could not pick up a scent, or they refused to search.”

Unsuccessful search efforts involving canines have been an integral part of the Missing 411 framework from the beginning. In 'Eastern United States', on pages XIII and XIV, DP writes that this 'very unusual trend' is not well understood and 'has occurred too many times to ignore'.

Bloodhounds from Menominee, Michigan, were used during the Harold King search.

DP's portrayal of the effectiveness of the bloodhounds in the Harold King case does not adequately reflect reality. In 'Eastern United States', DP quotes from an Associated Press article published in the La Crosse Tribune on September 10, 1936. The quoted section explains that King's clothing was torn off by the brush, and doctors feared King would develop pneumonia. Interestingly, in that article just two paragraphs later, the following is stated:

"Bloodhounds, brought by plane from Menominee, Mich., Wednesday, were given the scent of the child from a pair of shoes and led 250 searchers to the edge of the swamp. The heavy rain of Tuesday night had washed away the scent there."

The La Crosse Tribune - September 10, 1936

So, it was not the case that the Menominee bloodhounds failed to pick up a scent or refused to search. On the contrary, they successfully led the searchers from Harold King's grandparents' home three miles all the way to the swamp area where King was subsequently found alive. DP must be aware of this, having read the September 10 Associated Press article in the La Crosse Tribune.

5) DP labels the Harold King disappearance a 'scary event' and claims that witnesses heard a scream before King was swiftly removed from the scene

“Late in the night on September 10, neighbors heard wailing coming from a swampy area three miles from where the boy disappeared. Neighbors worked their way into the swamp, and found Harold. //…// It's interesting how neighbors described the sounds coming from the swamp as ‘wailing,’ not crying, not screaming, ‘wailing.’ As we all know a three year old cannot yell or scream very loud.”

After nightfall, Sheriff Harry Kennedy sent his searchers home, but family members and neighbors persisted in scouring the area to which the bloodhounds had led them. Around midnight, they heard sounds coming from a swamp, leading to the discovery of the young boy. In his above quote, DP dismisses the notion that a three-year-old can scream loudly.

Although the Harold King case is featured in 'Eastern United States', DP refers to it in a section titled 'Scary Events' in 'Western United States'. In the introduction to this section, DP strongly rejects the idea that children simply wander off. Instead, he argues that it is reasonable to conclude that these missing children were confronted by something that scared them greatly, prompting them to scream. On page 344, DP writes:

"The cases listed below represent an incident where the children screamed or yelled and then disappeared. Think through this clearly: children do not disappear and they do not run off and vanish—period. If there is a child’s scream in conjunction with a disappearance, I think it’s a rational assumption that they were confronted with something they could not overcome and they were deathly afraid. There were witnesses nearby in each of these incidents which did hear the scream. If a bear or mountain lion attacked these individuals there would be a bloody scene with torn clothing and evidence of a struggle, this wasn’t the case. In each of these incidents the victim was somehow quickly taken from the scene."

Nocturnal sounds led the searchers to Harold King's location in the swamp.

It is highly questionable whether the Harold King case should have been included in the 'Scary Events' list, as:

• no witnesses reported that King first screamed and then disappeared, leaving us with no reason to believe that he was confronted by something that made him deathly afraid.
• no sources state that King was a victim who was quickly taken from the scene. Even the September 10 Associated Press article in the La Crosse Tribune, which DP has read, clearly states that King wandered away from his grandparents' farm.

Interestingly, DP does not mention any of these 'scary' factors when presenting the case in 'Eastern United States' (pages 50-51). The Missing 411 account of how King went missing is just three sentences long and lacks detailed information:

"His parents, who live at a nearby reservation, brought Harold to his grandparents' residence. While Harold was at the home, the boy somehow disappeared. The grandparents called law enforcement, and a search was initiated."

6) DP talks about how Rebecca Henderson, Pam Davis, and Christie Davis vanished while taking a short walk to a grocery store

“Rebecca Henderson was the great-grandmother of Christie and Pam (age three) Davis when they decided to take a walk to the store in Ocala. The walk wasn't long, but it did border some very wild swamp and forested areas. Sometime during that walk on July 28, 1973, all three ladies got lost, and they got very lost. On Sunday night the mother of the two young girls called police, and a search was initiated."

On the day of their disappearance, the elderly Rebecca Henderson and her great-granddaughters, Pam and Christie Davis, intended to go to a grocery store near their home in Ocala, Florida. DP writes that the short walk bordered on 'some very wild swamp and forested areas', but fails to provide any sources to support this assertion.

The grocery store was only two blocks away.

It is correct that the grocery store was near their home, and that the trio never returned home. That night, a motorist, Carmen Cotton, discovered them walking along State Road 200, nearly three miles from the store. She then drove them to a site south of the Circle Square Ranch, located about 13 miles southwest of Ocala. An article in the Tampa Tribune (August 3, 1973) reports the following:

"More military men and equipment will assist today and the search location will be shifted to a point north of State Road 484 and west of State Road 200 in the almost futile hope of finding the girl alive.

//...//

Officers said they had located a woman who gave Christy (sic) Davis, her 3-year-old sister, Pam, and their great-great grandmother, Rebecca Henderson, a ride last Saturday when she found them walking along State Road 200 about three miles from their home in Ocala.

Carmen Cotton said Mrs. Henderson directed her to a site south of State Road 40 at the Circle Square Ranch, where Mrs. Henderson and the children got out of the car."

The Tampa Tribune - August 3, 1973

Numerous articles, including a United Press International article published in the Miami Herald (August 4, 1973), mention Carmen Cotton and the car ride. According to this source, Rebecca Henderson was suffering from advanced senility, a condition that could possibly explain why the trio was found walking along State Road 200. The article states:

"Probably the last person to see the three together was Mrs. Carmon (sic) Cotton of Ocala, who stopped to pick them up and drove them to Martel, a small community about 15 miles southwest of Ocala.

[Sheriff] Moreland said Mrs. Cotton let them out of the car and they began walking down a road after the great-grand-mother assured her she knew where she was going. Moreland said the elderly woman has been unable to remember anything about the incident because of her advanced senility.

Mrs. Henderson was found wandering dazed in her slip near the Circle-Square Ranch about 20 miles southwest of Ocala. Pam was found about a half-mile from her great-grandmother."

The Miami Herald - August 4, 1973

7) DP gives the impression that investigators believed Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis walked 20 miles in 24 hours

“Any ideas that a sixty-eight-year-old great-grandmother and a three-year-old girl can walk twenty miles in twenty-four hours in Florida's heat and humidity in July seems ludicrous to me."

Contrary to Missing 411 lore, investigators did not believe that Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis walked 20 miles in 24 hours through rattlesnake-infested swamps and forests. As early as August 2, 1973, investigators had already confirmed that Carmen Cotton had given the whole trio a ride in her pickup truck (The Tampa Bay Times).

While various newspapers provide slightly different accounts of where Carmen Cotton dropped them off and the exact length of the drive, they generally agree that Cotton drove the trio to a location approximately 13-15 miles southwest of Ocala. Given that so many articles mention Cotton and the car ride, it raises the question of why DP claims investigators thought the trio walked the 20 miles.

The answer can be found in a United Press International article dated August 5, 1973, where a journalist mistakenly wrote that Sheriff Don Moreland had stated the trio walked 20 miles. To clarify, United Press International reported on Carmen Cotton and the car ride on both August 3 and August 4 (the article from August 4 is featured in section 6 of this OP).

In 'North America and Beyond', DP references the United Press International article from August 5 and uses its unfortunate misinformation to bolster his Missing 411 mystique, stressing the sheer impossibility of an elderly woman and a young girl walking such a considerable distance in the Florida summer heat. All this while completely ignoring all the articles mentioning Carmen Cotton and the car ride—a method often described as cherry-picking.

Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis were found near a horse farm, 13 miles southwest of Ocala.

8) DP surmises that something occurred in the swamp, resulting in Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis experiencing hallucinations and leading to the separation of the two

“You can surmise that something happened in the swamps/woods that caused Mrs. Henderson and Pam to become separated and start hallucinating. I don't believe that any great-grandmother would leave her granddaughter voluntarily while they were lost. Many of the people chronicled in the 'Missing 411' books who are recovered after being lost cannot remember how they got lost or where they were."

DP claims that Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis hallucinated, despite no sources reporting such hallucinations. Henderson was senile, but senility is not the same as seeing and hearing things that are not real. According to a United Press International article published in the Fort Lauderdale News on August 3, 1973, Davis told investigators where she last saw her younger sister. The article states:

"Pam has told officers she last saw her sister sleeping under a tree, but couldn't say where it was located."

The Fort Lauderdale News - August 3, 1973

Even if, for the sake of argument, we entertain the idea that Rebecca Henderson and Pam Davis hallucinated, DP overlooks scientifically established factors that can cause hallucinations, such as fatigue, heat exposure, starvation, dehydration, and sleep deprivation.

Rebecca Henderson's condition evidently influenced her decision-making well before Carmen Cotton found the trio walking along State Road 200. Similar to the car ride, DP omits Henderson's senility in 'North America and Beyond'. Instead, DP invents an undefined 'something' to explain how Henderson and Pam Davis got separated in the swamp forests near the Circle Square Ranch, where they were found by searchers approximately half a mile apart.

While there is no evidence to suggest that Rebecca Henderson voluntarily left Pam and Christie Davis, investigators found it abundantly clear that Henderson was unfit to ensure the safety of the two children and herself.

Rebecca Henderson and her two young great-granddaughters were dropped off on a desolate road miles away from Ocala.

One more thing

On page XVIII of his first Missing 411 book, 'Western United States', DP writes that all the information presented in the book is factual and that he does not actively seek missing persons cases with predetermined attributes:

"Every story in this book is 100 percent factual. As you read, attempt to keep an open mind and attitude regarding its contents. Understand that I didn't set out to locate stories that supported a hypothesis; the hypothesis was developed after I finished investigating the cases. I also didn't search for stories that mimicked each other."

However, a comparative analysis reveals that the concept of a forest-dwelling predator with a formidable physique, capable of traversing impassable swamps, is present in DP's Bigfoot research—predating Missing 411 by a couple of years. This seems to suggest that DP may have formulated his hypothesis before selecting missing persons cases for his Missing 411 books.

Regrettably, the swamp cases analyzed in this OP are tendentiously presented in their respective Missing 411 books. It is implied that these missing persons were abducted, even though there is no good evidence to support such claims. Original sources do not, to a significant extent, align with the Missing 411 narrative that DP advocates. Sources explaining what actually happened are often omitted or misconstrued, which undermines DP's claim that his books are 100 percent factual.

Hello, my fellow subreddit peeps!

After a long stint in the backcountry and, what seemed like, an endless stream of natural disasters and work obligations, I finally have some time off. *thumbs up* I came back to the internet, and Reddit, to find that Paulides has started a new series that he labels "David Paulides presents amnesia". So, far, he's up to Part 9. I'll confess, I haven't watched them all. But, I only got 60 seconds into part 8 before the man starting whining about his drop in subs and viewers.

"I'd really like to know what happened to 20,000 people that were watching the trucker series and then suddenly disappeared."

David. It's not that deep. First of all, usually, when you have a round number, in increments of 10,000, that "disappear", it's usually because paid subs have dropped. Is there something you'd like to tell us, DP? Even if we assume that these were all legitimate viewers to begin with, if I lost 20,000 viewers at the end of a series... and they didn't seem interested in watching the next series, my first assumption would be that I'm just not putting out entertaining content. Or, perhaps people saw through the ruse? But, in true DP fashion, he tries to suggest there's some "unbelievable" conspiracy against him by YouTube.

If we go to aYouTube analytics site, we see the following:

• Of the alleged 433,000 subs that CanAm's channel has...the last fifty videos only have an average of 350 comments. So, only .0008 percent of users actually leave comments. This is a really, really low rate of interaction. And, we know he deletes a significant number of comments and blocks viewers who question or critique his methods. So, my advice, if you want to boost viewership and participation- allow the comments, Dave! At least you'd get a debate going!
• By analyzing the views and engagement rates, compared to the range of income generated, we can see that the majority of his income is coming from allowing ads. We can also infer that his income is really, really low (in comparison to past years) with some videos pulling in as little as $34-300 after being only for two weeks. By looking at average time watched and the metric of "most viewed" sections, it's really obvious that people are tired of his ads and skip through his videos. This points to him making on the lower end of the range.

But, what's more interesting? His statement, quoted above, seems to be very inaccurate!

​

​

Sub count

So, this doesn't show a drop in subs. In fact, it shows that his subs were basically stable through mid November (but HAD dropped precipitously prior to that). And, since 12-20, have gone up in roughly 8000 subs, in 1000 sub increments (which is odd and could point to purchasing subs). So, why is he appealing to pity? His total, accumulated view count (which differs from sub count) is astonishingly stagnant.

​

View count

But, it also reflects that he is NOT in some sort of YouTube jail. He's just not putting out content that people want to engage in, anymore. He closes this portion of Part 8 by instructing his viewers to see his comment in comments, which always links his most watched videos, and then directs them to "please go watch them". Why? Because, he gets the most money off views on his most watched videos (which he has purposefully packed full of ads). And, yet, villagers remain convinced that his primary objective has nothing to do with $$$. How?

​

My story is like that of many people here. I was a firm believer in DP's Missing 411 work in its early days. I was really intrigued. After his son's suicide, I started to get turned off by his lengthy politicizing and personal catharsis. (Though to be fair, I would be venting a lot too if I had a child take their own life.) When the Missing 411 UFO movie came out, I saw the cracks, the sensationalism and stretching of information. The guy whose elk got taken in the UFO made me laugh hysterically—his alien drawing looked like something from the old movie about Santa Claus and the martians. I think that guy had a mental episode. So I started reading up on DP's work to fact check, and people punched holes in it left and right. Of course, it is an awful lot of work to disprove his arguments myself, so just as I initially trusted DP's research, I also trusted his critics—though I find independent critics more reliable than a guy who soliloquies for hours upon hours and calls it investigative research.

It doesn't surprise me that DP's research is riddled with errors. Yet, although my enthusiasm in the missing 411 phenomenon has dissipated, I still believe that there is far more in the universe we don't understand than what we do understand (or think we do). Even though modern television largely sensationalizes the paranormal, cryptids, and urban legends, I don't take it lightly that first nations have lots of stories about other beings in our world. Sure, maybe it's all superstition or isn't literal in the way the stories suggest. But is it really all untrue? What about the stories of little children supposedly abducted by "hairy people" or stories of people claiming to experience UFOs first hand? I myself have seen out in the wilderness lights moving through the sky in ways that I as an aerospace engineer cannot explain. Even though DP's work is full of holes, we are still left with his fundamental assertion: that there is "paranormal" activity in the wilderness. That assertion is still a live question, it's up in the air. Is there valid paranormal activity in the wilderness or isn't there? It's almost a faith claim, and popular media is hardly trustworthy in giving us an answer.

I'm not asking for arguments for or against the paranormal. I'm more curious about how DP's work has affected your relationship to the paranormal. How have your opinions about paranormal occurences in the wilderness changed as public opinions of DP's work have shifted? Has his research encouraged your belief in the paranormal? Has criticism of his work weakened it? Have you ever believed that Missing 411 cases were caused by anything paranormal, or have you always thought it's all explainable by ordinary causes? Do you think that there are other instances which are more mysterious than the cases DP has presented?

Many, many plumbers go missing each year, and many fit the profile points: German, near water, point of separation, near granite countertops. Needs investigation asap.

We set this sub up a few years ago when people (who?!) were annoyed at criticism of Paulides.

Don't forget that this is the villager sub: r/Missing411OnlyFans

He is currently on episode 13.

Are they any good? I haven't watched any of Dave's videos in a while

This post was initially a response to another, in a trucking community, I found in a 'Paulides' search last night. My reply was deleted within hours by the OP, as well as their own account. I'd thought Id add some to it and place it here. I'm no 'Solmote' or 'trailangel4', so do bear with me if there are some mistakes ^^ I gladly accept all criticism.

This whole series is pretty much garbage. Yes, truckers do play an important part in our society/economy, and we should all be thankful for them delivering the goods, but Paulides just really plays with several 'incidents' involving truckers in his series. Right from the first case, Satwant Bains, DP plays with the facts. Mr Bains crossed a bridge, northbound, pulled his rig over to the shoulder, then walked back onto the bridge, southbound, and for whatever reason, he ended up falling over the low guard rails, dropping his flashlight on the narrow shoulder of the bridge, and into the canal. He was unfortunately found about two to three miles south, drowned. In DP's version, he would have the viewers believe that Mr Bains parked his rig, then walked across two sets of double-laned highways, down a hill, over a fence, and then over a barbed wire fence to enter the canal. Everytime I look into a case he covers, I find 'discrepancies'. At about half way through the series, I checked into another case, Robert Grilliott. Paulides was intrigued that after several tests done on Robert, in 1994, it was found that the individual had an irregular pattern on a brain scan, specifically an area related to memory. These tests were performed after Robert had walked into a hospital, and could not recollect anything. Paulides tried to play his own claim up as 'unusual', and something to 'ponder', when in fact, after a few minutes of research, it was found, that in 1993, Mr Grilliott was involved in an accident a year prior to his going missing incident, that resulted in 'head trauma' aka concussion. Paulides failed to mention such.

It is very tragic that drivers do suffer bouts of amnesia, mental breakdowns, or find themselves involved in-over-their-heads, or even a criminal element to deal with, but you should really not take Paulides for his word on much.

The best reference for Mr Bains' case, would be a YouTube video by Missing Enigma. He has some very accurate photos, showing the bridge.

For the Grilliot incident, the following article explains what the doctors found when the looked into his past medical records. If you hit a subscription wall, look into the 'page source' to read it. Right-click, view page source, scroll two thirds of the way down, or just do ctrl f, and enter 'concussion' in the search(find) tab. Or you could just do a basic google search as follows...

truck driver "robert grilliot" "concussion"

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Well, that was my reply. I took another look at where the series is at this morning, and Paulides has touched on the incident of another missing Iowa man. The man has been missing for just a month, and Paulides deemed it to be 'necessary' to add the man's name to his series, due to the supposedly vast amount of requests from several of his villagers. Which I would call him out on anyday of the week. To Paulides, it's some much needed content for his channel. I have left out the name in respect of the man's family members and close friends. I read the transcript from Paulides' video. His voice, and demeanor, I do find distracting and some what irritating. He went through some details, then some 'theories', basically just pure speculation. BUT, what really caiught my eye, was how DP foccussed on the fact that pigs, smaller pigs, was the trucker's cargo. He then asked his viewers if they knew that pig parts were used in 'human surgeries'. He continues to say that he is not claiming this has anything to do with the incident, but there he is, talking about it. The man has no respect for anyone. I have had another instance where Paulides has used a 'newer' incident, and I wanted to do a write up on how DP covered it, but I had to stop myself. The case was too new. During my research, I had seen comments on forums, YouTube, and on Facebook, from grieveing family members and friends. So there was Paulides, again, sitting infront of his UFO poster, eluding to exactly what he thought had happened. What is equally disrespectful, are the agreeing comments left by his villagers. You get a 'posse' vibe from it overall.

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This was just a quick look at the series, and I encourage others that are interested, to take a deeper look. Maybe the 'Trucker Series' could become a mega thread one day. Well, that is the end of my first posting. I do hope it was accurate and free of any mistakes. I also do hope all those that celebrated the holidays enjoyed themselves. Have a good one!

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I want to preface this with what another user pointed out (a quote from DP): "I'm a film content provider. I make content. I make movies."

Glad he finally admitted it. Notice that he didn't say "I'm a documentarian" or "I'm dedicated to finding the missing."

What happened to the "documentaries" on Amazon?

As Paulides says, "When you make movies, you have to find a distributor for your movies to put your movies on a platform: Tubi, Amazon, blah, blah, blah..."

Well, sure. That's part of the process. According to IMDB, NABS - the production and DISTRIBUTION COMPANY- DP created with his son, is labeled as the distributor for Missing411 and Missing411: The Hunted. According to IMDB, Missing411: The UFO Connection.... has no distributor. It was a straight to streaming endeavor. And, in fact, the only places it was "distributed" were self-distribution platforms (Amazon, Tubee, etc.,.) by Paulides and his executive producer (who does a lot of self-distribution projects).

Amazon says "Prime Video Direct helps rights holders offer policy compliant titles for rent/buy (TVOD) through Prime Video. Please note submission of your content doesn't guarantee that your title will be selected for licensing or published by a given date."

Further, the terms of publication and listing on Amazon's video collection is laid out here.

Post-licensing content review

Prime Video is a curated service, and we're constantly refreshing our content offering and selection for customers. Content isn't licensed indefinitely and may be removed at any time at the sole discretion of Prime Video. Prime Video conducts regular reviews using customer signals and viewing behavior (like completion rate, unique customer streams, and total hours) to determine which titles are resonating with customers. Content that fails to meet our engagement standards may be subject to removal from the service.

We understand you invest a lot in your content and we always provide you with visibility in your Dashboard if your title isn't selected for licensing and/or removed from the catalog. Unless otherwise indicated, removed titles (or titles not selected for licensing) may not be resubmitted or appealed. All content submitted through Prime Video Direct is made available/licensed at the sole discretion of Prime Video.

So, essentially, if your viewership or search numbers falls below a certain engagement, your video can be removed from Amazon's offerings. It's not their fault. They held up their end of the bargain. Amazon Video is not a marketing service. They're not responsible for getting eyes on your movie. And, as the numbers show, once David's MUFCON appearance was done and dusted, the views on those movies TANKED to an abysmal level. Further, it had a terrible sales rate.

Amazon also has a pretty standard agreement for those who create content, when it comes to payment. It's not a secret formula. It's public information.

Content providers receive 50% of net revenue. If you offer a season for purchase, customers who have purchased one or more episodes may be able to purchase the season for a discounted price. The season price is reduced by the amount the customer has already spent on previous episodes. You will receive 50% of net revenue for the episode and season purchases.

We issue payments approximately 90 days after the end of the month in which the revenue event occurred.

So, there's no Big Bad Wolf. For the industry, it's a very, very simple arrangement. Now, it is my understanding that none of the on screen talent received compensation for being in any of David's content. Most of them participated because they just wanted their loved one's story told. Additionally, the people who did the editing and sound and production design (with the exception of Ben Paulides and DP) would've been paid for their services up front by the production company. The production company for all of these endeavors is NABS, LLC. So, he's not splitting profits.

Amazon also has this to say about marketing your content.

You may only promote/market your titles via digital marketing (social media posts, websites, etc.).

You may only promote titles that are live in the Prime Video catalog.

You may only use the text "Available on Prime Video".

You may not use the Amazon or Prime Video logos.

What is NABS, LLC? Is it a film production company?

You might be tempted to think that it is. After all, in IMDB, it's listed as if it is. David and his son use the NABS as a company identifier in their resume.

But, it's not a movie production company. NABS stands for North American Big Foot Search. North American Big Foot Search, LLC is an open, registered LLC in Montana in 2021. NABS,LLC (on the other hand) actually returns multiple business registrations.

• 📷 NABS LLC (Washington (US))
• 📷 NABS LLC (Hawaii (US))
• 📷 NABS LLC (Michigan (US))
• 📷 NABS LLC (Pennsylvania (US))
• 📷 160K NABS LLC (Rhode Island (US))
• 📷 Cool Nabs, LLC (Georgia (US))
• 📷 North America Bigfoot Search(NABS) LLC (Montana (US))
• 📷 Nabs LLC (Wyoming (US))
• 📷 NABS CONSULTING LLC (New Jersey (US))
• 📷 NABS PRODUCTS LLC (New York (US))\

Note that NONE of these, including Paulides' company, is a film production company.

What does "Copyright edition" even mean? Does DP have a copyright?

Copyrights are publicly searchable. David Paulides has only successfully obtained THREE. And, they are limited term copyrights:

"Missing 411: Idaho" filed in 2021

"Missing 411: The UFO Connection" filed in 2022.

So, this begs the question, why is he starting every. single. video. on. his. YouTube. Channel. for the last 10 years, with "copyright edition" for a copyright he does not own. He was not granted a Copyright for NABS, Missing411, or any of the stories he tells...because there's nothing to copyright.

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What's with the grift/tone?

So, as other members of this subreddit have noted, in this thread, we are now seeing videos being produced by Paulides that are sort of off the rails. This is largely due to, in his own words, the fact that he is struggling to find synergy with his content. At the peak of his popularity, his videos would pull in 25-50,000 views within the first 24 hours. Now, he's down to a range of 16,000-40,000...period, all time views. He's been playing with the format. He's tried hitching his star to other wagons. He's tried getting rid of the letters...only to bring them back and complain that viewership goes down when he reads the (questionable) letters of platitude. His "cases" are being debunked by multiple sources (including many on this subreddit) and youtubers like:

https://www.youtube.com/@ZealousBeast

https://www.youtube.com/@TheLoreLodge

And...DP is struggling. This just isn't working for him anymore. So, now he's asking his loyals to help him out. Why? Because, people didn't buy his self-promoted movies on Amazon Prime. They didn't watch them. Amazon pulled the titles off the platform for the simple reason that it failed to stay relevant and popular. It happens. It's not a conspiracy. It's just metrics. These movies were self-produced by David and his family and his fans who bought books. NABS is not a production company - it's a Big Foot research society. No one, including Paulides, should be shocked that the content was pulled off of a major streaming company for failure to produce views. He also locked himself into a market where he legally can't promote if it's not available.

I watched it a few weeks ago with a friend and then two days later wanted to show it to another friend and went to play it on Tubi and it was no longer available.

Only way to access it was buying or renting through Apple. I wanted to watch it with my dad tonight and it’s off apple too??? There’s no way to access it is the US as far as I can’t tell.

While this post may appear self-serving, please hear me out.

A few weeks ago I was contacted by family of Agnes Appleyard to let me know that police had made significant case progress.

Appleyard, a 72 year old woman, disappeared from her isolated homestead in 1986, with very little trace or clues. She is mentioned in the M411 Western United States & Canada book.

After an extensive search, the case eventually went cold and received zero police or media attention over the last two decades. Around 2016, I took it upon myself to dig into the case (along with other lesser known cases) in order to reignite the investigation, bring the spotlight back to her and finally locate the missing woman. It took a few years, but I was able to convince police to re-open the inactive case and collect DNA from the family in 2019/2020. It was around this time that family members heard of my involvement on the case and have been corresponding with me since.

About 3 weeks ago, police and the coroner’s office matched the DNA to a skull that had been found near the Appleyard property in 1987. At the time, the skull was determined to be unrelated to the case (I know what you’re thinking, and it’s actually a much longer story). The skull was proved to belong to Appleyard, the woman missing for 37 years. I am proud to play a part in reuniting this forgotten woman back with her family after nearly 4 long, painful decades.

Because of the pressure I put on the coroner, the police and the attention I brought to her disappearance, I was able to put this case on the “front burner” and make a positive outcome.

My investigation was detailed in the book Gone Cold: Death and Disappearances in the Northwoods. I know that some people on here are going to “boo” me and claim this is all just self-promotion but it’s really about the hard work that has been done and the positive impact I was able to make. It is validation that the attention I brought to older cases is not a waste of time. I will continue to do so using my own limited time, money and resources.

I am hopeful that this breakthrough will inspire authorities and media to seriously consider some of the other unsolved cases I’ve been working on. I am confident we will eventually bring some resolution to those families as well.

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So basically the title. I have no idea how to even begin to investigate this. I've been trying to google things to avail. This seems like an extremely hard topic to look into, but I have a feelings there are some really interesting cases out there that were blamed at the hand of a bear.

If anyone could help point me in the direction of a proper sub I could this question or maybe some way I could start looking into this it would be much appreciated! Thanks.

I was looking at accounts of soldiers getting trapped and swallowed by mud in quite gruesome fashion and I found it quite fascinating how dangerous mud can actually be. It got me wondering if perhaps sometimes when people vanish without a trace they actually just got sucked into mud somewhere, since that would make them impossible to see and would probably make it hard for dogs to find any scent.

This post will cover some issues in DP's most recent video.

Theresa Hoffman (25) - Missing August 24, 1953 from West Valley, NY.

To start, it's extremely interesting that there is ZERO report of her on NamUs or Charley Project. There are zero newspaper reports about this woman. There are no reports in the Social Security Death Index. There's no grave on FindAGrave. She's not on any Census Records.

DP specifically states "Now, understand Theresa had lived on this farm her entire life."

Well, that's simply untrue.

According to birth records, Theresa was born to Frank and Ada* (Or Ida) Hoffman, in 1927 IN CONCORD NEW YORK. She was still living there in 1930 (1930 Census). In the 1940 Census, she is 13 and living in Machias Junction, NY. In fact, Theresa and her parents didn't move to West Valley until just prior to the 1950 Census. At which point, Theresa is listed as 23. So, not only was Theresa 27/28 years old in 1953 (not 25)...but there's absolutely NO DATA that substantiates DP's claim that she'd lived on that farm her entire life.

As for her disappearance, I haven't been able to find ONE article or record about this "disappearance" or search. If anyone else has ANY record of this, please feel free to post what you find in comments. I can't find any sources about any of the claims of a search. Despite DP's claims that this was "one of the biggest searches in New York state history", there is NO mention or record! If 2500 people showed up to search, as DP claims, why hasn't he posted a single source or a single newspaper article?

DP then claims that Theresa was found in the corner of the barn a month later.

What Paulides fails to point out is that Theresa married Isadore Hoffman, a man 10 years her senior, in 1952. Isadore is a relative. They were married until Isadore's death in 2001. Theresa died in 2012. According to the family, this was not an easy marriage. Her parents also didn't know that this marriage had occurred in Manhattan, in 1952. So... I don't know about everyone else. But, I would really like DP to cite his sources.

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