Hey y'all! I noticed this subreddit has been pretty quiet lately, so I wanted to try and spark some discussion. How has everyone been? Anybody had any glorious gender-y moments lately? Anybody been floating around in any real or online communities similar to this one (and if you're comfortable linking it, feel free!).

It's just so confusing--everything gender-wise, or even stuff that we tend to associate with gender just makes my head hurt. I've had times where I'll be convinced I'm a trans man, and then times when I'll think that there's no way I could be anything other than a woman. I like wearing suits and yet, at the same time I wonder about wearing makeup, or heels, or wearing women's clothes again. For a while I hated being asked my pronouns because it felt like I was being asked to inadvertently declare my gender, and as you can probably tell I could write an essay about that and STILL not have an answer.

I dunno. I've been doing this song and dance for about six years and never does it get clearer to me where it's headed or where it ends. Sheesh!

Anthony Kurtz traveled to Senegal in 2011 as a volunteer for the organization Walking Tree and later spent 10 days documenting the lives of female auto mechanics in the capital, Dakar. The women in his series, titled "No Man's Job," are bold and courageous. Kurtz met with the founders of some of the first female-owned autoshops in the country, women who have successfully carved out a path in a world usually dominated by men. Kurtz describes his subjects as "resilient ... women who don't take no for an answer."

the photos: https://www.anthonykurtz.com/female-auto-mechanics-in-dakar-senegal

I feel like mainstream feminism is pushing for more femininity in all women. Everywhere I go I see this “embrace your femininity” bull shit it’s likely they don’t get that some women aren’t feminine in any way and don’t want to be. I’m masculine and I like it. For me femininity is like a pare of shackles just a horrible uncomfortable restraint that does nothing for the wearer I want to see mor acceptance and portrayals of butch/GNC women but when they show up people complain and say she shouldn’t have to be masculine to be powerful. I feel betrayed by mainstream feminism they were supposed to protect and uplift us instead they brush us aside and accuse us of having internalized misogyny don’t even get me started on TERFs and how they use us for their shity agenda they can go strait to hell.

I realize my title is kind of click bait.

Luisa Madrigal is a positively presented character. She is kind, generous, and unselfish almost to a fault.

And despite these being positive things, and despite Luisa being a positive example of an MoC character in mainstream media, I think she represents a particular example of an ongoing problem.

I’ve not done a proper survey, but my unreliable memory’s sense of it, is that positive potrayls of MoC women, rare as they are, tend to present them as a lot like Luisa: entirely service oriented. Something of a female version of the selfless strong man. Think Fezzik, as played by André the Giant, in [The Princess Bride](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_Bride_(film\)). Or, going back to MoC women characters, Susie Myerson, as portrayed by Alex Borstein, in The Marvelous Mrs Maisel.

Which, in a film that does have romantic goings on as a sub-plot, is frustrating, to put it mildly.

I’m entirely bisexual, so I wasn’t specifically frustrated at this MoC woman not having even a hint of a girlfriend. But my frustration was, if anything, worse: Luisa didn’t show even a hint of having a romantic inner life at all.

I’m not expecting a mainstream Disney film to pioneer the presentation of WLW MoC people. But what was done in this film — and what is done in other media with the same character stereotype isn’t just de-sexualising, it’s de-romanticising.^1

And this stereotype — the ‘unattractive’ woman who devotes herself to others (because, says the unspoken sub-text, no-one wants her) — is hurtful, damaging, and so very, very untrue.

FWIW, I still enjoyed the film: it’s a fairytale, but still has some worthwhile things to say about family and intergenerational trauma, especially given its intended audience includes young kids. It manages to get its simple but worthwhile message about trauma and healing across in an entirely primary-school-aged-kid-friendly way.

I watched the film with my entirely MoC partner, however. They are a fan of ‘light’ entertainment fare specifically because their real-world work gives them more than enough hard and gritty reality.^2

So I made a particular point, after the film was over, of reminding my partner of how much I want them, and how much I appreciate their particular and peculiar romanticism.

And I still want more media that treats being and presenting as MoC as just another way of being a person, rather than as a lazy stereotype masquarading as a character-type.

1. By ‘romantic’ I mean ‘conducive to or characterised by the expression of love’. I don’t mean ‘idealised ideas about reality or love’ or the Romantic art movement for that matter. Almost everyone has an inner life characterised by romantic longings and impulses. How they are expressed is irrelevant to their being experienced.

2. They work with pre-school children who are dealing with trauma, ranging from family break-downs all the way through to serious family violence and sexual predation.

Hello! I’m not a masculine woman in fact I am literally the opposite. As a gender nonconforming man I reckon you folks are baller and should keep up doing you regardless of where it falls in terms of gendered expectations. It’s a shame this reddit and other reddits for tomboys and the like are dead. I’m frequently on r/feminineboys and it’s a thriving amazing community that is very important to so many of its members. With the nature of how hard it is to go against the societal grain I wish the same thing existed for gender nonconforming women as us nonconformers are all in this together. Don’t really have a point, I just wanted to reach out to the other side of the nonconforming fence and offer the same positivity I offer other gender nonconforming guys and have been offered by them. Keep doing you!

Does anyone else get really sick of the she kicks ass in heals trope or the fem fatal and similar ones. Tropes like these basically say a woman can only fight if she appeals to the male gaze. Some try to reclaim it by saying “a woman shouldn’t have to give up her femininity to be badass” thats true but I’m sick of hearing this argument. Some of us didn’t give it up we threw it away or never had/wanted it to begin with. I want more butch/MOC representation.

You are some of the most exceptionally beautiful people on the planet. If you ever have the thought of approaching a man who’s caught you interest, know very well that you have been the center of his regardless of what he may say.

I haven't really noticed alot of posts here, or even on r/masculinegirls. Which is a bummer. So, is this subreddit active at all? If not, are there any that are? I'm talking about ones for masculine woman that still identify as a woman or female. Those are really hard to find. Anyways thanks!

When I watch tv it is very hard to find masculine women characters. Most female characters are a fem fatal/overly sexualized/an asshole or domineering to her supposed friends or a crapy half assed tomboy stereotype that barely fits the bill. Then whenever a show/movie has a masculine woman people complain about how women are having their femininity taken away or some other bullshit. Like no masculine woman exist.

It feels like masculine woman aren’t allowed to exist. People bitch and moan every time a female character isn’t conventionally attractive to men or to aggressive. They complaint about captain marvel because she was “to masculine” She isn’t even masculine she’s a soldier.

Anti SJW types lost their shit because the new She Ra is flat chested like say what you want about reboots but quite bitching about the lack of T and A in a kids show.

They also bitched about furyosa and some female Star Wars characters as well.

It’s not just anti SJW shit lords bitching some liberals/progressives say by having masculine woman it devalues feminine traits no it fucking doesn’t all of media has feminine woman. Just let masculine woman exist in media and in real life.

The closest I have seen to woman who even close to masculine of centre are some gems in Steven Universe,tigress in Kung fu panda,Sandy from sponge Bob, furyosa from mad Max and Riply from alien. It is so difficult to find masculine of centre woman.

Miscellaneous complaints about characters

The gems are aliens and as much as I love sci-fi it implies masculine women aren’t really human. Sandy still needed to have a flower on her space suit so we know she is a girl. Misty in Pokémon is said to be a tomboy but she is super girly and kind of athletic but mostly a bitch in fact most tomboys in media are like this.

Not the main rant but feminine men have it pretty bad to. They are ether a terrible gay stereotype,a villain,die first or the but of jokes. Masculine woman are shown rarely if ever but feminine men are portrayed as evil like what the actual fuck.

On the plus side r/rolereversal exist but still.

Is anyone else frustrated by this?

May update later

Hello community, I would be very thankful If you help me to answer this questionnaire it is for college and personal purposes, I think that it is important to reflect on the topic about sexism and how this is affecting both men and women, thanks a lot!

https://forms.gle/FRdMr2nb6kFU4akN7

Ps. It is not my first language I would have mistakes in my writing.

Australian Rules Football is a full-contact ball sport that I am a serious fan of. And the AFLW — the Women’s AFL competition — is one of the more significant things to happen in the sport for decades.

I’ve posted about it’s significance as a queer-friendly environment for women in the past and, if some fit of madness has you trawling through my post history, you’ll see I’ve occasionally posted other stuff about the AFLW in general and about how it keeps being an important thing for queer women.

But, if you’ll bear with me, this particular AFLW-connected topic feels like it fits here.

When I was a soldier I wore body armour. It was years ago, and military body armour has improved since my day. Even back then, however, one of the things I liked about body armour (all those keeping bullets and shrapnel from fucking you up benefits notwithstanding) was the way it kept everything in place. I’m not American, and was equipped with body armour designed to fit a range of body types. I didn’t have the experience women in the US Army faced when first issued body armour: having to wear gear designed specifically for male upper bodies.

I was also very aware of how de-gendering a full infantry outfit is. Not because I felt de-gendered (gender dysphoria or questioning isn’t something I’ve ever experienced) but because, at least so far as visuals are concerned, full infantry kit seriously de-gendered the company I commanded. Sticking with the binary for narrative brevity: my company was about 35% women and, when in field kit, it was basically impossible to gender anyone. Upper-body armour was and is definitely part of that.

Which brings me — finally, I hear the cry — to the point.

A friend of Donna Johnson’s had three daughters, and all three had taken up football (ie, Australian Rules Football). And Johnson wondered ‘if there was any kind of protective wear for their chest and ribs’.

There wasn’t.

Johnson started talking about this with her husband, Brad. Brad Johnson happens to be a 364-game AFL footy veteran and former captain of the Western Bulldogs men’s team (one of the 18 teams that make up the AFL/AFLW).

About three-and-a-half years later, the end-result of these initial conversations (and a whole lot more) is the Zena Z1, an impact protection garment for women who play full-contact sports.

Apparently about 15 current AFLW players used it during the 2020 AFLW season.

And, while I’ve not tried it myself (yet), a couple of players note that it’s ‘made a massive difference’. (This quote is from Sabrina Frederick, who happens to be a queer, masculine-of-centre woman.)

And questions of protection somewhat aside, it looks comfortable and, given it has a front-zip and can be put on and taken off like a vest, fairly easy to wear.

Moreover, it is designed to not be visible under an AFL guernsey. And an AFL guernsey is, basically, a tank-top. So the Zena Z1 clearly functions as underwear. This, if nothing else, has me seriously considering a purchase. The body armour I used to wear was outerwear.

At A$169.00 plus shipping (and they do ship outside Australia), this isn’t cheap. (As I type, A$169.00 is about US$123.00, £93.00 or €104.00.)

But it felt like something worth bringing to the attention of people in this particular space nonetheless.

Oh, and about that ‘modern corset’ line in the title: let me give the floor to one of my favourite YouTubers, Karolina Żebrowska, and her brilliant take-down of yet another sexist, patriarchal lie: How Victorian men taught us to hate corsets: the biggest lie in fashion history.

It’s not stretching things particularly far to argue the Zena Z1, and even the body armour I wore, are corsets or, at the very least, corsetted clothing.

Edit: typo correction in ante-penultimate paragraph.

I've really been wrestling with the concept of my own gender lately. I've always had some innate masculinity and it upsets me sometimes when people can't see that. I want to call myself a guy, or a dude, or a man. I want to be masculine without having to tack "for a lady" at the end of it. I don't want to be "relatively" masculine, or sort of boyish, I want to be masculine. Full stop.

I want to say that I know I'm not a man and that I'm secure in my womanhood (god do I hate that word) and that fuck you, the way I do gender is perfectly female and perfectly valid, and that that's the way I like it. But that's not true. I could be a guy. My security in my masculinity and gender nonconformity goes no deeper than my clothes. I know it's not true but I feel like I'm the only person who's ever felt like this.

The closest thing I can find to people who share my experience is the wonderful people of /r/butchlesbians, but where we differ is that they perform masculinity for themselves and women. I do it for myself and for men. And as much as I love that about myself, it only disconnects me further from womanhood.

Honestly, I find myself wanting to be a man sometimes. More than sometimes; often. But I can't figure out if I want to be a man because I am one, or if it's because I don't think I have a future as my current gender nonconforming self. Like, for now I can call myself handsome and call myself a guy because it feels good, but can I do that forever?

I don't know. I just needed to put this somewhere. Thanks for reading :^)

I’m kind of curious what kind of people everyone hangs around with. I’m a bi gnc girl, and all of my friends are guys and non-binary people with the exception of my best friend since I was a kid who is a lesbian. I used to have a lot of girl friends when I was a kid but as I grew older I found I had a harder time relating to a lot of women, especially feminine ones. It feels ironic that I’m attracted to women and I’m in a lot of social spheres with women, a lot of gay women, and they are all great, but I feel like I can barely understand and connect to a lot of them. I feel more comfortable talking to cishet guys than I do to a lot of women which feels kind of dumb.

Overall I just want to know what people you all hang out with, and if anyone else has these dynamics.

Recently out, and realized I thought I had a crush on all of The Outsiders (book and movie) but actually just wanted to be Matt Dillion. Did you experience anything similar?

I've been in a gender rut lately and I've been thinking about experimenting with pronouns. I'm fine with she/her, but I'm exploring he/him as well. I don't know if I want he/him exclusively but right now I'm liking the idea of using he/him a little bit like how you might see some cis gay men using she/her for themselves. Like, looking at myself in the mirror like "ooh, he's handsome!" or something. We'll see if it changes; I have a feeling it might but I'm trying to take things slow because I tend to get spooked and shut down if I do too much. Which sucks a little, but you gotta meet yourself where you're at!

So, how do y'all feel about pronouns? If you're comfortable, which ones do you use? Do you see your pronouns as something more set in stone or something you like to play around with? Or anything else you've been thinking about in regards to pronouns; I just want to talk about this!

Hi all.

How have you guys/gals overcome the initial apprehension to dress in a more masculine way? How do you deal with it, if it's still a thing?

Be it apprehension from outside opinions/reactions or from your own insecurity about identifying with something diverse.

While I also want to vent, the discussion is the focus, so I have flaired with that in mind.

(/vent

I have always preferred more masculine clothes. Be it for the style - I was since young age adamantly against flashy, delicate, cutesy, extravagant or simply girly clothes, although my resistance to fancy details in them have diminished - or the comfort/build quality - the first always weighted a lot for me, and the second were more noticeable as I have grown.

But I am still afraid to use the clothes I wish for, and even when visiting the masculine aisles I have to think to myself that if a stranger sees me, they would thing is for a male correlate. I also generally don't wear anything masc. but for tshirts as pajamas, my "pet" fleece jackets, and a retired trekking pair of boots.

I don't yearn for nothing too "visible". Just the basic, sober shirts, good and style approved jackets and boots, and perhaps a good fitting straight pants (that fewer brands seem to be making these days for the feminine section). Although I admit that smart male fashion is just too good, I don't think it would be well in me.

Well, perhaps it is visible. I realize my ideal self would dress like a tasteful male.

I don't actually dress anything too outwardly feminine. I try some clothes from time to time, tell myself that I will use some pieces, then they sit unused in my wardrobe for months/years until I give them away. And mostly use tshirts and pants - because hell no, I'm not going to shave my legs forever just to look acceptable, and it has cons, like scratching for days on end.

I'm afraid, though, and having no harmonic sense of style make more difficult for me to venture into the male wardrobe.

)