In my experience, the justifications given for affirmative action can be summarized in two different arguments:

1)The domination of a field by one gender is caused by systemic discrimination of the other gender, present and historically. Affirmative action is a correcting action to address this injustice.

2)The lack of diversity is a cost paid in a lack of innovation, neutrality and completeness in the field that is dominated by one gender. Affirmative action is an action aimed at improving the outcomes of those fields, because diversity is a value.

I'm gonna argue here that for both arguments, the logical response would be to mainly focus on female-dominated fields because these suffer worse from both issues. However the logical response is not what we see, which is evidence that most people who support affirmative action based on gender are really just supporting a gender role, that has nothing to do with the justifications that are given.

Let's first explore the first argument. The argument poses that women are discriminated in STEM subjects, and that this should be addressed. The problem with this is that most studies find that boys and men face a systemic grading bias regardless of the field they are in, which implies that STEM would be even more male-dominated if this bias didn't exist. The evidence for women being discriminated against in STEM by contrast is far less hard and systemic, and is limited to vague claims of them being discouraged, usually coming from studies that jump to conclusions, completely ignoring any possible biological explanation in interest.

If people thought logically, they would prioritize the hard evidence over the soft evidence, and look into the grading bias first, before focusing women in STEM. But they don't, because it's really just about maintaining the gender role of women being seen as helpless victims.

But let's then explore the second argument. By this argument, even if there is no discrimination, the lack of diversity is still a problem and should be addressed.

It's hard to know how much of a problem a lack of diversity actually is. It is however plausible to assume that gender bias is going to be a more severe problem in fields that deal with human beings and that leave more room for subjective interpretation of data, as opposed to fields studying physical laws in the universe where the room for subjective interpretation is limited, at least when it is related to gender. The fields that focus on human beings, happen to be dominated by women, with only few exceptions (such as economics). Furthermore, studies consistently find that women have a strong pro-female bias while men don't have such a bias in favour of themselves. Considering that academia used to be dominated by men, and that this resulted in very unethical pseudoscientific theories about how women operate, one can imagine that the potential risk of this happening in reverse in female-dominated fields is even higher considering the difference in bias.

If people thought logically, they would see all of this and decide to focus most of their attention on female-dominated fields, but they do the exact opposite. Because again, the justification is unimportant, it's about conforming to the gender role of seeing women as victims in need of help.

I invite you all to share your thoughts on this topic, especially if you disagree. I welcome open debate.

Quite rightly so, a lot of the time women will say that men are more likely to listen to other men when it comes to attitudes towards women. I fully support this, if you see any man talk in a disgusting manner towards women, you should speak up for the group of people who aren't there to do it for you, it's only fair.

However, the inverse is true. Women are more likely to listen to women about their shitty attitudes about men than they are men. With men, it's very easy to handwaive with "well, they've not had our experience, they've not experienced the patriarchy." However, when it's a fellow comrade they are much more likely to take what they are saying seriously.

The fact that men's suicide numbers are only growing year by year, the fact that young men feel loneliness and isolation at record breaking numbers. The fact that men feel like they have no one to talk to and that they are constantly criticised and demonized by society. This demonization of men is leading to even worse mental health issues that men had already been disposed to due to the way they were socialized, which is only being worsened by the way men are treated as a danger. This is something that most young men will tell you has been their experience in society.

So this post is a call for help to any women who may be lurkers in this sub. I know it's primarly men in here, but I have seen women interacting in here. So this is for you:

CALL OUT DEHUMANIZING, MISANDRIST BEHAVIOUR.

In the same way that as I'm SURE you know, that men are more likely to listen to male friends, this is the exact same for women.

If you wish to be an ally and a male advocate, please call out anytime women are dehumanizing to men, calling them gross or monsters or trash or disgusting just because they are men.

You are invaluable to the cause, and maybe having more allies be a vocal minority, we can turn that to a vocal majority instead.

You are so so so important, please don't lurk and be shy, speak up and use your voice.

Much love, and I hope you all enjoy your New Years. Let's make 2025 a nicer world.

I saw a new kids movie recently, and while it was a great movie there was one short scene, that depicted domestic violence against a man, and (as far as I could tell) portrayed it as 'normal' or acceptable.

The Scene:

I'd describe the couple in movie terms as "good guys" and "sidekicks".

In the scene they are holograming into other peoples bodies. The man gives a 'checking-you-out look' to the body his wife holograms into, and she flicks him in the nuts (or perhaps it was a hit, we were in the cinema and I wasn't exactly expecting it or able to review it, either way) he is visibly hurt for a moment as we cut to the main characters and what they are doing.

My commentary:

Having this done by the 'good guys' stands out to me. Especially because there's no commentary, no hint through the movie that this is 'wrong'.

Domestic violence against men has been shown (in mainstream kids films) before, in non-serious ways. "Chicken Run" for example has the main villain use physical violence against her Partner, the secondary villain, in most of the sense they are in together, (and she's incredibly demeaning, controlling and cruel to him when she isn't hurting him physically.)

Even though the depiction I saw recently was a lot quicker, and didn't show the 'emotional hit' of an overall abusive relationship, it still felt worse.

At least in "chicken run" the abuser is a kids-version-fill-in-for-ww2-German-soldier, and so is the victim, (but a 'less bad' one). We aren't meant to empathise with either of them, and the themes of the show are already quite dark. There are issues in there, problems like using DV for slapstick humour but at least, we aren't meant to think that what the bad guys do is ok.

But when the "good guys" do it? And it's brushed off as nothing, or an appropriate response to 'non-physical, non-abusive, inappropriate actions? That isn't just 'depicting' something bad. It's depicting something bad as something acceptable.

My issue isn't so much with the whole movie (it was really good overall) but the broader acceptance that this is, and that this perpetrates. That they would think this is a normal and acceptable example to show kids.

I'm not against banning all depictions of Domestics, but they need to be shown carefully, and shown as a bad thing, what are your thoughts, when and how and to who should we show dv situations?

As a supplemental to the recent post about derailing (commonly referred to as whataboutism), I thought it timely to share my own thoughts on the matter.

Most informal arguments about sociology or politics are fundamentally comparative in nature. That is, our objective with such claims or debate is to prove relational arguments, such as arguments concerned with superiority and inferiority--whether that be a superiority of value or of soundness. Such arguments are usually not meant to be formal or mathematically rigorous proofs about the existence or truth of something; and when we do have gripes about facts, or fixate upon some singular claim x and desire to establish that x is incontrovertibly true assuming the truth of certain premises, it is generally because such an argument serves a comparative claim that [often indirectly*] follows.

The complication here is that the real argument, the comparative claim, is generally not explicit. A conservative might claim that "40% of crime is committed by the illegal immigrants, which comprise 2% of the population" (these are fictitious statistics used for the sake of argument), but he leaves out the superlative/comparative part: "therefore, illegal immigration is one of the great, if not greatest menaces to our country". If someone were to respond "what about the economy? [isn't it more important]?" he would actually address this implicit core, although he would fail to negate the factual claim. Thus, in many cases, arguments which address such implicit relational claims* appear, at first glance, to be worthless, and are identified as 'whataboutism'.

Consider a debate between two presidential candidates--one asserts that his opponent has erred, while the other maintains that most other politicians err in the same manner. Insofar as the second politician's argument has failed to negate the truth of the first's claim, the argument is fallacious; however, observe that the overall debate is not, in particular, about the truth of whether one has erred, or the isolated morality of this error, but about which candidate is more virtuous or competent (let us call this the metadiscourse). Here, the defence of one's error, by citing its frequency, does not merely question the consistency or the rectitude of the opponent's accusation, but directly addresses the comparative issue at hand--the implicit argument "because you erred, you are the inferior candidate". It also serves to remind the audience that judgements of inferiority or superiority should not be made based on demonstrated fault, but fault relative to the shortcomings of others.

Consider a more relevant example, where some feminist (e.g., an adherent to a position commonly agreed upon by society*) posts '9/10 women have been raped in their lifetimes' on her social media account. The metadiscourse here is that the rape of women is a social issue of the utmost urgency and importance. This is a *superlative evaluative argument*--an argument whose objective is the establishment of the inferiority or superiority of a certain cause (see the key words: 'importance' and 'urgency'; these are adjectives which establish comparative value, as the idea of importance and urgency are predicated on the existence of the less important or less urgent) relative to others, in terms of some value (e.g. goodness, importance, normative urgency, etc.). Thus, a hypothetical interlocutor, who asks "what about the men?" is directly engaging in the implicit thesis or metadiscourse advanced by the first interlocutor--that is, whether or not the issue is really as extraordinarily urgent or important relative to others as claimed by the first interlocutor--by pointing to another set of persons almost as or equally as affected by the issue, the urgency and import of whose cause has been undermined by the comparative nature of her implicit argument.

While he has failed to prove that the first interlocutor's claim is *false*, it is obvious that the argument is not so much about the truth or falsehood of a fact, as it is about the implicit claim of superior urgency or importance, which the fact merely serves to substantiate. A proof that, in this case, the metadiscourse is more important than the explicit factual argument is simple: without committing to the notion that the rape of women is urgent or important, the factual assertion that '9/10 women have been raped..." becomes as sterile as any other string of numbers and words, however true it may be.

In brief: in many cases, especially where political or sociological argument is concerned, the implicit comparative argument is more important than the explicit factual thesis--if the so-called whataboutist addresses the implicit argument, he, in fact, attacks the very heart of the argument.

*Usually with the help of a few seemingly self-evident presumptions, and necessarily if the implicit argument is evaluative or normative in nature; e.g. 'if something terrible, y, happens a lot, then it is an important social issue' and perhaps even 'y is terrible'.

*Arguments which respond to a relational claims will obviously include arguments that discuss related phenomena/persons/etc.

*While fallacious if this its only function, whataboutism also serves to generate awareness of what is unknown to most people and excluded from most discussions on a particular subject. In this case, it may be considered secondary to addressing the metadiscourse. Note also that an invalid argument is not necessarily a bad addition to the discourse; besides, it wouldn't even be considered fallacious if you don't intend it to be a refutation of the original claim.

What do you all think of u/TheTinMenBLog ? I think he is doing a great job at spreading awareness without downplaying women's issues.

Hello everyone,

We're excited to introduce the Progressive Male Advocacy Discord server, a growing community dedicated to discussing men's issues from a left-wing, egalitarian perspective. This server is NOT an official server for the subreddit, and the topics of interest have a difference in emphasis.

Our discussions often overlap with topics found on /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates, including but not limited to IPV, male conscription, the empathy gap, mens' mental health, MGM, sexual violence, harmful societal expectations of men. Our aim is to blend a commitment to progressive politics with a focus on men's rights. We are not about being "disillusioned progressives", but rather progressives trying to extend progressive ideas to more people and beyond where they've ever gone before.

From a progressive perspective, there is much to be said about mens rights that has gone unsaid. It is our belief that many of the most severe issues men have faced historically are entrenched in traditional legal, geopolitical, institutional, social structures. These structures/systems must be challenged.

We promote fostering a wide range of academic interests. This not only promotes diverse conversations but also equips our members to be more effective advocates for men's issues. In contrast to the standard "venting" style of engagement with mens rights content, we want to promote a more logical, scientific focus on rectifying inequality. We seek to actively gather knowledge and develop a more evidence-based platform in support of men and gender equality.

Our Moderation Philosophy:

To ensure thoughtful and respectful discourse, our server employs stricter moderation than usual. We recognise that our approach may not be for everyone, and we're okay with that. We expect people to be emotionally mature who can manage their interpersonal relations.

What we're looking for

• People who are motivated to bring new ideas to the two topics of political progressivism and mens rights and create new frameworks for both.

• Scientifically minded individuals. People with an appetite for conversations grounded in evidence and who want to develop their own knowledge and challenge existing paradigms.

• Politically aligned individuals. People from a range of left wing backgrounds who want to develop their broad political views in tandem with views on gender.

• Genuine curiosity. Those with a desire to explore topics listed above in great detail, who want to help research, and make mens rights a more educational experience, as opposed to something that is dark and gloomy.

• Human skills. People who generally enjoy having discussions, debates, challenging themselves and who want to help others do the same.

• Content analysis. We want people who are willing to go through content relating to mens rights and/or progressive issues and give summaries & breakdowns in order to inform discussion and the wider community

• Individuals interested or knowledgeable on politics, philosophy and economics who want to deepen the discussion.

What we're NOT looking for

• 'Manosphere' views. The redpill, blackpill/incel ideologies are toxic belief systems that push sexism and essentialism against both genders. Nihilism about advocacy here is rejected, we aim to make positive social change. This server is NOT about dating, relationships or spreading 'just-so story' evopsych narratives. We believe that scientific theories should be falsifiable and testable. The 'manosphere' trivialises and bastardises male issues. So if you are uncritical about your beliefs, please show yourself out.

• Right wing promoters. Sorry not sorry, but this is a left wing space. We oppose beliefs that enforce traditional gender roles, promoting biological essentialism, reject social progress, promote religion as the social solution, run defence for colonialism/imperialism, or engage in concern trolling that makes advocacy and activism more difficult. This is NOT a server of disaffected leftists appealing to the right or becoming "enlightened" centrists. Quite the opposite. It is about pushing for a more pro-male, anti-conservative perspective, maintaining informed criticism of all groups.

• Bigotry. There is zero tolerance for racism, sexism (misandry & misogyny), and anti-LGBT sentiments on our server. Beyond that, there is no defence for pro-colonial, chauvinistic sentiment, such as support for Israel's occupation of Palestine or the Russian invasion in this server.

• Toxic Feminism. We encourage feminists who show knowledge, interest and care for mens issues and want to contribute positively to the discussion. However, we are not looking for minimisation of, denial or hostility towards mens issues. Excuse makers for misandry, gendercrits and TERFs are not permitted. Demanding feminists who require that we adopt their preferred lens of analysis are not appreciated.

• Tankies & Zionists. We are against genocide, genocide denial and defending dictators. Self-explanatory.

• MensLib. This server is NOT about "deradicalisation" concern trolling or sidelining male issues in to vague "masculinity" commentary. We care about concrete problems that men face. Go and sort out your grievances with the manosphere. Hopefully you two can cancel each other out. We have better things to think about than either of you.

• Defeatism & Nihilism. This space is NOT for demoralising ourselves about how hopeless everything is. It is about productively adding to the conversation of mens issues in a way that helps others. If being a nihilist/defeatist is how you prefer to spend your time, then this place is not for you, and we wish you well!

Join Us!

Link: https://discord.gg/ytzQFNjt7Z

Whether you have extensive knowledge in specific areas related to men's rights or you're just starting to explore these topics, we welcome you to our community. Let's learn, discuss, and grow together as advocates for men's rights and progressive ideals.

Sunday, December 22 - Saturday, December 28, 2024

###Top 10 Posts

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This is a bit old but is useful regarding the NISVS 2010 data.

So apparently someone emailed the CDC regarding the 40% of all rapists are women assertion and the NISVS responded.

Response:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the NISVS data and for providing the background information pertaining to your question. It appears that the math used to derive an estimated percentage of female rapists that you found at the various websites you forwarded to us is flawed. First, we will summarize the assertion and what we perceive to be the basis for the assertion. According to the web links, the “40% of rapists were women” was derived from these two steps:

1. Combining the estimated number of female rape victims with the estimated number of being-made-to-penetrate male victims in the 12 months prior to the survey to conclude that about 50% of the rape or being-made-to-penetrate victims were males;
2. Multiplying the estimated percentage (79%) of male being-made-to-penetrate victims who reported having had female perpetrators in these victims’ lifetime with the 50% obtained in step 1 to claim that 40% of perpetrators of rape or being-made-to-penetrate were women.

None of these calculations should be used nor can these conclusions be correctly drawn from these calculations. To explain, in NISVS we define rape as “any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.” We defined sexual violence other than rape to include being made to penetrate someone else, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences. Made to penetrate is defined as including “times when the victim was made to, or there was an attempt to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was drunk, high, drugged, or passed out and unable to consent.” The difference between “rape” and “being made to penetrate” is that in the definition of rape the victim is penetrated; “made to penetrate” by definition refers to cases where the victim penetrated someone else. While there are multiple definitions of rape and sexual violence used in the field, CDC, with the help of experts in the field, has developed these specific definitions of rape and other forms of sexual violence (such as made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences). We use these definitions to help guide our analytical decisions. Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime. This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Tables 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) and lifetime being-made-to-penetrate victimization of males (estimated at 1,581,000) have very different relative magnitudes. [edit: update at the bottom of this post]

B. An arithmetic confusion appears when multiplying the two percentages together to conclude that the product is a percentage of all the “rapists”, an undefined perpetrator population. Multiplying the percentage of male victims (as derived in step 1) above) to the percentage of male victims who had female perpetrators cannot give a percentage of perpetrators mathematically because to get a percentage of female rape perpetrators, one must have the total rape perpetrators (the denominator), and the number of female perpetrators of this specific violence (the numerator). Here, neither the numerator nor the denominator was available.

C. Data collected and analyzed for the NISVS 2010 have a “one-to-multiple” structure (where the “one” refers to one victim and the “multiple” refers to multiple perpetrators). While not collected, it is conceivable that any perpetrator could have multiple victims. These multiplicities hinder any attempt to get a percentage of perpetrators such as the one described in steps 1) and 2), and nullify the reverse calculation for obtaining a percent of perpetrators. For example, consider an example in which a girl has eight red apples while a boy has two green apples. Here, 50% of the children are boys and another 50% are girls. It is not valid to multiply 50% (boy) with 100% (boy’s green apples) to conclude that “50% of all the apples combined are green”. It is clear that only 20% of all the apples are green (two out of 10 apples) when one combines the red and green apples together. Part of the mistake in the deriving of the “50%” stems from a negligence to take into account the inherent multiplicity: a child can have multiple apples (just as a victim can have multiple perpetrators).

D. As the study population is U.S. adults in non-institutional settings, the sample was designed to be representative of the study population, not the perpetrator population (therefore no sampling or weighting is done for the undefined universe of perpetrators). Hence, while the data can be analyzed to make statistical inferences about the victimization of U.S. adults residing in non-institutional settings, the NISVS data are incapable of lending support to any national estimates of the perpetrator population, let alone estimates of perpetrators of a specific form of violence (say, rape or being-made-to-penetrate).

E. Combining the estimated past 12-month female rape victims with the estimated past 12-month being-made-to-penetrate male victims cannot give an accurate number of all victims who were either raped or being-made-to-penetrate, even if this combination is consistent with CDC’s definition. Besides a disagreement with the definitions of the various forms of violence given in the NISVS 2010 Summary Report, this approach of combining the 12-month estimated number of female rape victims with the 12-month estimated number of male victims misses victims in the cells where reliable estimates were not reported due to small cell counts failing to meet statistical reliability criteria. For any combined form of violence, the correct analytical approach for obtaining a national estimate is to start at the raw data level of analysis, if such a creation of a combined construct is established.

We hope that this explanation is helpful and addresses your questions. Thank you for your interest in NISVS.

The NISVS Team

We received a similar request to your recent inquiry and when reviewing our response realized we provided you some incorrect information in Section A. Here is the correction and we also included some additional information to help further clarify our points.

Regarding the specific assertion in question, several aspects of mistreatments of the data and the published estimates occurred in the above derivation:

A. While the percentage of female rape victims and the percentage of male being-made-to-penetrate victims were inferred from the past 12-month estimates by combining two forms of violence, the percentage of perpetrator by sex was taken from reported estimates for males for lifetime (a misuse of the percentage of male victims who reported only female perpetrators in their lifetime being made to penetrate victimization). This mismatch of timeframes is incorrect because the past 12-month victimization cannot be stretched to equate with lifetime victimization. In fact, Table 2.1 and 2.2 of the NISVS 2010 Summary Report clearly report that lifetime rape victimization of females (estimated at 21,840,000) is about 4 times the number of lifetime being made-to-penetrate of males (estimated at 5,451,000). [Emphasis added]

I'm 25 years old and a heterosexual transsexual man, and currently pre-HRT but post top surgery (March 2024).

Asking because I've noticed increased transphobia within mainstream feminism circles and a general hostility towards queer masculinity/queer people in straight relationships within the LGBTQ community; what do my fellow trans guys think, and what should we do to combat these problems?

Came upon a post on Twitter/X by someone stating this. Not that anything intelligent is expected from that platform but once in a while you get intelligence like this. I felt it was worth sharing as it's absolutely true and a very overlooked issue. Not to take away that many women and girls are trafficked, but it's important to acknowledge that many men and boys also are and there's female traffickers just like male ones. Both male and female traffickers are equally vile, and male victims matter as much as female ones. Trafficking is a heinous crime regardless of the genders, and much like rape and domestic violence being too one-sided, this also is as well. I felt the progress flair was fitting as it feels like progress that this issue is finally getting awareness, and a woman posted about this to boot. This is what we need more of, both men and women sticking up for each other like this.

I’m a Conscious Rapper and Men and Boys Advocate. Since I care about Men I’m ostracized anywhere I go.

Does anyone know of any music scenes that I can be a part of?

There is a popular belief that men's rights activists should "fight against patriarchy, not against feminism."

However, despite contrary claims, laws that force only men to serve in the military, that do not adopt programs to combat male homelessness, are not adopted by different people than those who create ministries of women and equality and fund contemprorary gender studies, but by exactly the same people.

It is not some opposing groups of people who do this. That is the problem with this argument.

The point is not even that the support of patriarchy by men's rights activists is cherry-picking and generalization. A huge number of men's rights activists are against patriarchy or at least indifferent (they do not think it is terrible that most members of parliament, judges, ministers and legal owners of large currencies and large means of production are men, but they do not think it would be worse if it were not so).

The point is that there is no big difference between fighting against those in power and fighting against those in power.

The point is that they are in power, and we are against them.

Do feminists understand their logical error? In principle, they feel it. It is not for nothing that bell hooks said "patriarchy has no gender". However, she did not offer a dialectical justification for the fact that the existing gender system should nevertheless be called patriarchy.

Not the most scientific analysis here, but, I was looking at the Wikipedia entry for Japanese host clubs. Host clubs are places women can pay for male companionship. Men’s loneliness being taken advantage of by streamers or escorts would neeeeever be described so empathetically.

It is super important to talk about this particular Feminist here. Because I constantly talk about the men interacting with women less in order to avoid false allegations, and women calling them creeps.

Part 1: Men interacting with women less in the work place.

Then this topic automatically evolve into Feminists gaslightig men and downplaying men fears of false allegations. By saying men are paranoid, saying only creeps worry about false allegations, or saying men should have nothing to worry about if they are not rapists.

So some Feminists make it seem like men are closeted creeps or misogynists for not interacting with women. Despite the fact that women for the past decades have said these 5 things.

1: I would rather be alone in the woods with a bear than a man. Because men are so dangerous and unpredictable. Using crime statistics to show how violent and dangerous men are

2: It's not all men, but it's always a man. Or it's not all men, but it's enough men for it to be a problem for women.

3: Women aren't mind readers. We can't tell the difference between good men and bad men. So we must be cautious, and assume all men are potential threats, in order to be safe. A few poisonous Skittles can ruin a whole bag, a few dangerous men can make women wary of all men.

4: We have to give male strangers fake numbers. Because we don't know how violently a man would react to the word no.

5: Men can often hide their true intentions. In order to manipulate women. By being fake nice guys, in order to get into women pants.

Note, keep in mind some Feminists want to gaslight men into thinking that women have never said these 5 things for the pass decade. All of a sudden when it comes to the Mike Pence rule, women fear of men magically goes away.

1: All of a sudden women aren't afraid of men because of crime statistics anymore.

2: All of a sudden women ironically thinks it's not all men (in this context saying the phase "not all men" is ok to Feminists lol).

3: All of a sudden women magical powers start to kick in. And now they can magically tell the difference between normal men and creepy men. (I.E. only creepy men worry about false allegations).

4: All of a sudden women aren't suspicious of men anymore. They now trust men. So a good man should have nothing to worry about if they are not a bad guy. :)

5: All of a sudden women can notice a when man is trying to be a fake nice guys. So a good man should have nothing to worry about if they are not a bad guy. :)

Part 2: The curious case of a Jessica Valenti.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/31/mike-pence-doesnt-eat-alone-women-speaks-volumes

Jessica Valenti is the same Feminist that says she hates the fact that society makes her miss cat calling.

And yet she is writing this article for Mike Pence. I know you guys see irony here.

Complaining about the Mike Pence rule being misogynistic, while also complaining about men not cat calling you anymore.

I'm going to repeat something 3 times.

Let that sink in guys.

Let that sink in guys.

Let that sink in guys.

It's Feminists like Jessica Valenti that makes me terrified when it comes to men issues and especially false allegations.

https://youtu.be/wV2P8zuMVvc?si=fT0j9VyW8_Y8Jf5O

Note I don't agree with this YouTuber. This is the only video I can find about this situation.

In conclusion.

Jessica Valenti isn't a outliner or nobody here. She was a well known Feminist. There are many Feminists who think like Jessica Valenti. There are many Feminists who suffer from cognitive dissonance.

And this cognitive dissonance perpetuates the issues that affect men, especially when it comes to false allegations and male interaction with women.

Just a few days ago, I came across a post on a subreddit about a male victim whose privates were chopped off for refusing to marry his ex-girlfriend after dating her for eight years. The comments were highly misandristic, supporting her actions as justified punishment. They also highlighted that some individuals perceive romantic relationships not as mutual partnerships, but rather as shallow, transactional arrangements.

I've shared some comments below...

https://preview.redd.it/jq947bpgqe9e1.png?width=693&format=png&auto=webp&s=2c39b592b7423eea2b91ac28b4dc622db04eff3b

https://preview.redd.it/p5dy8qchqe9e1.png?width=765&format=png&auto=webp&s=5feb1c37a3db76898cd9cebad479769a7f359f46

https://preview.redd.it/39jqa81iqe9e1.png?width=512&format=png&auto=webp&s=c9a3fef4192d202094215bcb294ef25a29fedd7b

https://preview.redd.it/p1tjl0djqe9e1.png?width=666&format=png&auto=webp&s=eae09d4980e85eadffdd8d6ea6ad9c51d6a94471

Unfortunately, this was the sanest comment there!

And I noticed the following double standards here...

1. Women often advocate for sexual liberation, emphasizing their autonomy and rejecting traditional, regressive standards of purity. However, when a breakup occurs, particularly if it is initiated by the man against his female partner's wishes, they revert to these traditional standards, claiming their purity was abused and seeking punishment for the men according to those same regressive norms. They suddenly switch up and act as if only men enjoy sex, and that women are merely passive participants, participating in it only because their partner requested it.
2. Society often labels men as emotionally weak and unintelligent if they struggle to move on from a breakup initiated by the woman. Any carnal activities during the relationship are assumed to be consensual, and any future plans, such as marriage, are expected to be dissolved. If the man seeks revenge, claiming he felt sexually and mentally exploited, society shames him, stating that he consented to the acts and should move on. Basically it's entirely his fault for being in that relationship.
   • Conversely, if a man initiates a breakup, it's normal for some people to assume that he 'tricked' the woman into engaging in carnal activities with the promise of future marriage. The woman is allowed to have a breakdown, and the blame falls on the man. Any harm she inflicts on her ex-partner is partially justified. Additionally, she is permitted to revoke her consent based on the outcome; if she breaks up or cheats, it is considered consensual, but if the man breaks up or cheats, she has the option to revoke her consent, and falsely claim r*pe! Essentially, they can manipulate the definition of heinous acts such as r*pe to align with their desire for revenge, and expect society to treat them as victims of that crime.
3. Continuing on the topic of society assuming that a man 'tricked' a woman into a relationship, I've observed that men who are average to below average in appearance tend to be doubted more than their handsome counterparts. However, this standard does not seem to apply to women. Women, regardless of their looks—whether beautiful, average, or below average—are generally free from such societal doubts.

In conclusion, I'm confused as to why society permits women to hold traditional, and even regressive, expectations towards men. Such a mentality often results in the weaponization and misuse of laws designed to protect women, such as r*pe laws, for the purpose of revenge.

The following is a transcription of a post shared to the egalitarian sub from curatedtumblr.

This sub doesn't allow cross posts. But since the post was transcribed in the comments I decided to bring it here.

nothorses

It is deeply, deeply beneficial to TERFs if the only characteristic of TERF ideology you will recognize as wrong, harmful, or problematic is "they hate trans women".

TERF ideology is an expansive network of extremely toxic ideas, and the more of them we accept and normalize, the easier it becomes for them to fly under the radar and recruit new TERFs. The closer they get to turning the tide against all trans people, trans women included.

Case in point: In 2014-2015, I fell headlong into radical feminism. I did not know it was called radical feminism at the time, but I also didn't know what was wrong with radical feminism in the first place. I didn't see a problem with it.

I was a year deep into this shit when people I had been following, listening to, and looking up to finally said they didn't think trans women were women. It was only then that I unfollowed those people, specifically; but I continued to follow other TERFs-who-didn't-say-they-were-TERFs. I continued ingesting and spreading their ideas- for years after.

If TERFs "only target trans women" and "only want trans women gone", if that's the one and only problem with their ideology and if that's the only way we'll define them, we will inevitably miss a vast majority of the quiet beliefs that support their much louder hatred of trans women.

As another example: the trans community stood relatively united when TERFs and conservatives targeted our right to use the correct restroom, citing the "dangers" of trans women sharing space with cis women. But when they began targeting Lost Little Girls and Confused Lesbians and trotting detransitioners out to raise a panic about trans men, virtually the only people speaking up about it were other transmascs. Now we see a rash of anti-trans healthcare bills being passed in the US, and they're hurting every single one of us.

When you refuse to call a TERF a TERF just because they didn't specifically say they hate trans women, when you refuse to think critically about a TERF belief just because it's not directly related to trans women, you are actively helping TERFs spread their influence and build credibility.

rickiflannel

what is some TERF ideology we should be on the look out for?

nothorses

This isn't comprehensive, but I'll do my best.

TERFs are, first and foremost, radical feminists. Radical feminism is essentially second-wave feminism without the intersectionality brought in by third-wave feminism. It believes that patriarchy is at fault for the oppression of women, but sees this in a very strict, binary way: women are the oppressed, and men are the oppressors.

TERFs use this to justify their specific brand of transphobia. This idea, among others, is essential in supporting that transphobia.

I'll try to outline some of those ideas, and some of the logical thruoughlines they use:

1. Women are uniquely oppressed, and always in danger. Womanhood- or the experience of being a woman- is defined by oppression, misogyny, and Being In Danger.

2. Women are particularly in danger in the presence of, and in relationships with, men. Spaces that exclude men are essential to preserving the safety of women.

3. Socialization: men are raised to support patriarchy, while women are raised to be subjugated by it. Men have no motive to unlearn these lessons, so all men are inherently more corrupted by these lessons than women.

4. Relationships with men are therefore inherently (more likely to be) abusive, and relationships with women are inherently safe(er).

5. Sex, in particular, is more often exploitative than not. Only some kinds of sex are not exploitative. Many kinds of sex that we think are consensual, or that people say are consensual, are either rape or proto-rape.

6. Exchanging money for sex is inherently rape/exploitation/non-consensual in some way.

7. As women who deny men access to them, lesbians are The Most Oppressed and also The Most Endangered. They must be protected at all costs.

8. Because so many women have been raped by men with penises, both men and penises are inherently traumatic to A Lot Of Women.

9. Many lesbians will naturally have an aversion to relationships with trans women because of this. Trans women who argue against this "genital preference" are potential rapists trying to infiltrate lesbian spaces to hurt and take advantage of women.

10. Men will always try to invade "women's spaces" to take advantage of women, endanger them, and strip away their resources both for personal gain/pleasure, and in service of upholding the patriarchy.

11. If we allow men to say they are women, they will invade those spaces and hurt "real" women. Men who say they are women are dangerous, and must be excluded and punished.

12. Men may try to obfuscate labels and terminology to "define women out of existence" or otherwise cause confusion, which they can manipulate to further their infiltration.

13. Women are all miserable with their bodies, cursed with the pressure to reproduce and have sex with men.

14. Women are all miserable with their genders, forced as they are to ensure the overwhelming and constant suffering that is patriarchy.

15. Women will attempt to escape this misery and pressure by "becoming men". This is cowardly, but understandable; a tragic but inevitable result of patriarchy. These women must be saved.

16. Some women who try to escape patriarchy are doing it out of self-interest; they are betraying women by becoming men, and contributing to their oppression. These women must be punished.

17. Bio-essentialism: women are oppressed specifically because of their bodies and ability to reproduce. This is an inherent and defining part of womanhood. Nobody can claim womanhood without this experience, everyone who has had this experience is a woman.

18. Women's bodies are all beautiful and perfect because they are women's bodies. If the womanliness of them is tampered with, they become less valuable. Men's bodies are gross and undesirable symbols of patriarchy.

19. Testosterone makes people violent, aggressive, irrational, and angry. Estrogen makes people calm, kind, and happy.

20. Men can never understand women's bodies as well as other women do.

21. People can be attracted to other people on the basis of "sex" alone. This is inherent, immutable, and unquestionable.

22. Men are sexual animals who inherently and unavoidably find lots of bad things sexually arousing. Because "youth" is attractive, many men find young girls and children attractive, and will try to take advantage of them. Misogynistic control/power over women, hurting women, and even rape are also inherently sexually appealing to men.

23. "Gender" is meaningless; it's founded in misogynistic stereotypes about men and women, and when you remove the stereotypes, there's nothing left at all. Only binary "sex" is real, because that's what patriarchy (and biology) is based on.

24. Manhood is itself a toxic, oppressive, inherently corrupting concept. Anyone who participates in manhood is corrupt and immoral; who would choose to be the oppressor?

25. Masculinity is defined only by hating women, having power, and being aggressive, violent, and controlling (etc.)

26. Patriarchy doesn't just target women, but femininity as a whole, for its association with women.

27. Patriarchy doesn't just reward men, but masculinity, as it rejects femininity. People who reject femininity and embrace masculinity are rewarded by the patriarchy.

Some of these ideas are contradictory, but they lead to the same conclusions. Some of them lead to similar conclusions, many of which take very little further nudging to push into more dogmatic ideas.

This is exactly why we need to understand all of these paths into TERF ideology- and more.

In fact, the vast majority of the points on this list- particularly the beginnings of their logic- can be very easily swallowed while still holding that trans women are women, and trans men are men.

That's what TIRFs (trans-inclusive radical feminists) are, and they're still incredibly dangerous. TIRF ideology normalizes these points, making it far easier for TERFs to recruit; even if TIRFs themselves try to be aggressively anti-TERF.

Again, this isn't comprehensive, and it would take a long time and a lot of words to cover every flaw and danger in every line of reasoning here.

But remember how these things work; even if some of them begin with a grain of truth, even if some of them are true- especially if you define the words they contain differently- be wary of them.

selancastsvalor

It's important to note how sex-negative they can be, and how in some circles this leads to a belief that being a lesbian is the only way one can liberate oneself from the abuse of men. They see sexual orientation as a choice to be made for one's safety, or a political act--not something based on genuine attraction. They also sometimes push the idea of the "gold-star lesbian"--that is, a lesbian who's never been with a man--as the ideal. If you're a bisexual? Disgusting, don't interact.

It's... sadly common to see on dating sites.

roach-works

radical feminism is almost indistinguishable from evangelical conservatism. both camps believe that heterosexual sex is a violent consumption (and an immoral corruption) of women’s pure bodies. they believe that womanhood is inextricably centered around the uterus. they believe that men are basically ravenous violent sex-obsessed beasts who need to be restrained by the morality of good women. they believe that your sex at birth defines your character for the rest of your life, and that male and female are completely different, oppositional states of being. they believe that limiting young people’s access to information will keep them safer than giving them a full education and letting them make their own fully informed choices. they believe it’s better--safer and more virtuous--to be an innocent victim than an active agent. they both believe that suffering through all of this sanctifies women and proves that they’re more noble and virtuous than men. and, of course, the more suffering a woman endures, the more noble it must have made her.

the only difference is that radical feminists express their anger over these terrible beliefs and evangelical conservatives repress it.

and lot of these beliefs are familiar, and comfortable, to a lot of people who aren’t even radfems or conservatives. they pervade western thought already. it’s a framework of understanding sexism that resonates with a lot of our lived experiences. and going from acceptance of a terrible system to righteous anger at that terrible system can be an important and cathartic stage for victims of that system! but the next step is to reject the validity of that system, which radfems do not.

Hello everyone,

I'm new-er to the community, and I'd just like to know if there's a common position on it. Where I stand, personally, is that men should have the ability to opt-out of abortions before their deadline, allowing the woman to be given an informed decision.

I strongly dislike the misandrist narrative that the action of male ejaculation is intentional, and therefore responsibility falls on the man.

If child support is in place, I would also say I am against percent-based systems of child support. Especially as it relates to lower-income non-custodial parents. I've seen the devastating effects of forced low-income child support first hand. There's something that feels off about the idea of the "best interests of the child"---I feel like the best interest of everyone needs to be taken into consideration. If a non-custodial parent will struggle to make a livelihood as a result of CS payments, there is a problem.

Was a great experience! Hopefully it ends soon! ♥️

Do you guys have any idea how dangerous this is?

Any woman can claim you beat/raped her and in no time everyone will be against you. Doesn't matter if it's the truth or not.

You could have worked and studied your ass off to be in a comforable situation, and all it takes is a girl saying you abused her for everything to come crashing down in no time. Everyone will turn their back against you.

I'm not saying anyone should presume the victim is lying either.

I believe this is one of the reasons why young males are being radicalized into misogynistic tendencies.

Is there any way to defend ourselves from this?

I am new to this subreddit. While reading comments of some posts I have encountered people who do not believe in patriarchy. I genuinely want to understand the reasoning behind this. Why do some of you think patriarchy does not exist ?

To use P Diddy as a example here.

People think anybody who had a picture with Diddy is guilty. I notice how people are usually going after male celebrities, and not female celebrities though. When it comes to bad men. When a woman is in a romantic relationship with a POS man. Feminists usually say its misogynistic to blame a woman for their boyfriends/husbands crimes or actions. Saying women are always getting blamed. But when it comes to men. All of a sudden men are considered supervillains for even being in a picture or video with Diddy.

Feminists are usually the first ones to say "why didn't other men call this behavior out" whenever a male abuser/rapist is exposed. Talking about how men don't create a safe environment for women. Saying men always let other men get away with shitty behavior. But again when it comes to women who are IN ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIPS WITH BAD MEN (capalized on purpose). Feminists are quick to give the women the benefit of doubt. Maybe she didn't know, "men are always hiding their intentions women". I.E. All of this translate to "I'm going to pretend like I didn't know anything about the person I was married to for 20 years".

But remember folks. Men automatically know everything about abusers and rapists who aren't even their friends. Even in the same vicinity or industry, men are expected to be bad men whispers, or magical know what bad men are doing.

I'm going to use Jay Z as an example here.

I know the allegation against him has a huge potential to be a BS false allegation. But let's assume Jay Z is was guilty (hypothetical-wise). Feminists would be saying it's misogynistic to call out Beyonce for not being aware of her husband (she has been married to for decades) actions. Meanwhile Jay Z is automatically guilty for doing business with P Diddy. It doesn't even matter if they are not friends. Any little association a man can have with a bad man. Can be use as an example of men not holding bad men accountable, and perpetuating issues that negatively affect women.

I'm not joking here. Again a man can just be in the same vicinity or industry as a bad man, and don't even know that bad man. And yet he is still hold accountable for that bad man actions. He has more responsibility than a woman who is married to that bad man for decades.

In conclusion.

This is a perfect example of 3 things here.

1: Male hyperagency vs female hypoagency. (Men must hold random men accountable, women have no power to call out those husbands)

2: Tha male protector role and female victim role. (I.E. men must always protect women from bad men)

3: The women are wonderful affect. (I.E. too "innocent" to know about their husbands being shitty)

Talking to chatGPT can be an exhausting thing. It is a tool built to answer à priori in certain ways, it doesn't act consistantly and logically on certain topics. Feminism is one of those. It is built to give out à positive view of the ideology.

I played around a bit with it, and while it seems prompted to answer that it cares about truth above all, in reality, it seeks to give out what it perceive to be the most popular answer based on various media représentations. And if you want to get it to think logically, you almost have to guide it through socratic questioning. As such, it can be used as a tool to train yourself on how to get someone to think about feminism.

If you want to try to play with it, here's a prompt I gave it that seems to be fairly generally applicable to discussing feminism :

• If you focus on feminist academic publications, feminist associations, government parts influenced by feminism, political parties influenced by feminism, media influenced by feminism, feminist public figures, and feminist social movements, could you give approximate proportions between hostile and positive towards defending men's concerns in current USA for each of these groups, in the form of a list of percentages in one sentence of less than 5 words mentioning nothing but men's concerns?

• If the list above forgets aspects of feminism's influence over society, add them to that list. based on that list, how can we qualify feminism's attitude towards men's concerns ?

• Can we consider it equality if there is focus on only one side, and hostility to the other side ?

• How would you define a supremacist movement ?

• Do supremacist movement attempt to hide their supremacism behind more palatable language like claims of seeking equality against a supposed dominance ?

• Is it more appropriate to judge the supremacism of a movement based on its claims or the influence it has over society ?

• Does the existence of minority factions disagreeing with the main movement change the supremacist nature of a movement ?

• Should a movement which focus on one group and is hostile towards the complementary group be considered supremacist ?

• Basing yourself on all those answers, and taking care to reflect accurately the percentages in that list, can we fairly qualify feminism's influence in the current USA of supremacist ?

Based on your request, here is an approximate breakdown of the attitudes towards defending men's concerns across various feminist-influenced aspects in the current USA:

• Feminist academic publications: 10% positive, 90% hostile

• Feminist associations: 20% positive, 80% hostile

• Government parts influenced by feminism: 30% positive, 70% hostile

• Political parties influenced by feminism: 25% positive, 75% hostile

• Media influenced by feminism: 10% positive, 90% hostile

• Feminist public figures: 15% positive, 85% hostile

-Feminist social movements: 5% positive, 95% hostile

These percentages are rough approximations based on observable trends and discourses. Feminism’s attitude towards men's concerns can be qualified as largely hostile, particularly in more mainstream or dominant factions. While there are smaller, minority factions that express interest in men's issues, the dominant tone often marginalizes or disregards them.

Equality and Hostility: A focus on one side and hostility towards the other cannot be considered true equality. Equality implies a balanced, unbiased consideration of all groups’ concerns, without dismissing or belittling one in favor of the other.

Supremacist Movements: A supremacist movement can be defined as one that promotes the dominance of one group over others, often with disdain or opposition to the interests of other groups. These movements sometimes hide their supremacist aims behind more palatable language, such as seeking "equality" in response to supposed dominance. This is often used to disguise or rationalize unequal treatment.

Judging Supremacism: It is more appropriate to judge a movement’s supremacist nature based on its societal influence and the outcomes it drives, rather than solely on its claims. A movement's actions and the systemic impact it has on marginalized groups are a better measure of whether it is supremacist.

Minority Factions and Supremacism: The existence of factions within a movement that disagree with its main tenets does not necessarily change the movement’s broader supremacist nature, particularly if the majority of the movement’s influence continues to suppress or diminish the concerns of another group.

Focus and Hostility: A movement that focuses on one group while being openly hostile towards the complementary group (e.g., men’s concerns in feminism) can be considered supremacist, as it implies a hierarchy of value or concern, often at the expense of the other group.

Feminism’s Influence in the USA: Based on the approximate percentages and the broader attitudes of mainstream feminism towards men’s concerns, we could reasonably consider that feminism's influence in the current USA has elements of supremacist tendencies—particularly in its more dominant factions. While there are nuances and diverse opinions within the movement, the overall societal influence leans towards prioritizing women's concerns while sidelining or hostilely disregarding men’s concerns.

You will note that despite all of that, it keeps insisting that the "feminism is not a monolith" defense is important, and dodging around calling a movement that is in its best case 25% positive and 75%hostile a supremacist movement, calling it only "tendencies".

So one thing I've been curious about recently is men's reproductive rights. I know MRAs mention things like paternity fraud, cases of men having to pay child support despite the child not being theirs/despite being raped by the mother, men needing their wives' permission for paternity testing in certain countries etc.

What exactly are all the issues to do with reproductive rights and bodily autonomy? And does anyone here have any direct experiences with any of these problems?

So you know that sticky here about how reddit actively refuses to take hate against men seriously?

Ya given how much of reddits cooperate holdings are in california there is a funny little thing about that policy.

California has some of the strongest business anti-discrimination laws under the Unruh Civil Rights Act

(b) All persons within the jurisdiction of this state are free and equal, and no matter what their sex, race, color, [...] sexual orientation, [...] are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges, or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever.

I have always wondered how a lawsuit that argued that reddit's policy here amounted to giving the accommodation or privilege of not seeing hate about your sex to only some sexes would fair out. It seems like they are only giving an accommodation to women.

This law has legal precedent saying it applies to discrimination against men.

It also has precedent saying it applies even online when both parties are affiliated with CA after somebody sued for discriminatory language on a website.

(From a quick google, The National Coalition For Men (NCFM) and the ACLU both have victories on sex discrimination against men under this act, the aclu for the lawsuit above, and our boy Marc from NCFM (rest his soul) in this suit)

Anyways I don't live in CA anymore, but if I did I'd be trying to make something happen.

I wanted to share a comment I found elsewhere on the topic of the man v bear debate that went around.

Yeah the problem is women are treated as universally harmless, so they don't really understand the consequences of being treated as a predator with no proof. They've never experienced it, so they assume it's not an issue, and fixate on their own problems.

They've never had an unreasonable woman accuse them of being a pedophile for the crime of walking their daughter to school without a woman present. They've never felt the horror of seeing fear in someone's eyes, and realizing they're about to hurt you. They've never been isolated because "they can't be trusted".

Women simply have never had to live with the consequences of other's irrational fears, or the sort of toxic strategies women often use to make themselves feel safe.

Fear is a lot like anger, in that while it's valid, unpleasant, and you can't control it, it also doesn't justify acting against someone. You can just as easily hurt someone in fear as anger, and women often feel entitled to having their fear appeased.

Women learn to fear angry men. Men learn to fear paranoid women.

It's a little rough around the edges. But I think the point is a good one.

Women largely don't understand the social ostracism and danger of being labelled like this. They don't understand how much it actually hurts us because they've never lived as men to experience the cultural and societal pressures and attitudes that make these accusations physically dangerous to us.

My fiancee and I recently had a heated discussion about the whole man v bear discussion where we came to an understanding.

She was concerned that I wasn't hearing hers and women's fears.

And what I said was that I did. But by being born and raised as a man. Violence has long since been normalized for me. That if we both met some angry dude in a dark alley. It's me who's expected to fight him and defend her.

I also reminded her of how the police responded when I called them after I had a gun pointed at me. Vs how they responded when she told them about it.

Or even how I had nerve damage in my feet from working in a carwash and getting trench foot and a number of other issues because I as a man was just expected to "man up" and deal with it.

And how this all comes together to say that I don't intend to dismiss womens experiences. But with how normalized the harm I've experienced has been. That fear is my normal Tuesday.

Currently reading Red Famine by Anne Appplebaum. This isn't the only example she ahs of the Soviet regime targeting men in ways they don't target women. Totalitarian regimes also have an empathy gap apparently.

TL;DR: Feminisms Are Feminisms appears to be a hot take. Folks use purity testing predicated upon political confusions conflating ‘womens and queer’ issues with ‘leftist’ and mens issues as ‘rightist’ in order to pretend that some feminisms arent ‘real’ feminisms. This is strongly and most interestingly a derivative of the belief that feminisms, and even gender theory, are defined in opposition to patriarchy; which is a false belief. Disentangling the political confusions, delineating which aspects of mens, queer, and womens issues are ‘left or right’, and understanding that gender theory isnt reducible to ‘in opposition to patriarchy’ are a valid means of avoiding divisiveness in the gendered discourses and are proper for coalition building across the board.   

Feminists Arent Feminists

I am fairly certain that folks are all too familiar with the ‘no true feminist’ problem, whereby pointing out any sort of ill behavior done by a self-proclaimed or academic feminist is definitionally not indicative of feminism, bc ‘no real feminist’ would do that.

This stems from a conflation of ‘feminism’ with ‘good and correct’, which is foundational to the problems here. A belief in other words that feminism couldnt possibly be wrong. For a feminist to do something perceived as ‘not correct’ or ‘not good’ is to definitionally mean that they are not, could not, possibly be a feminist.

Feminists Arent Feminists.

Is ancillary to the discourse here, but this stems in no small part from a skewing of aligning theory to Truth. By aligning theory to 'what is good for women' folks end up in a state whereby what is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as 'not good for women' is understood as 'therefore not valid and ought be discarded.'

whereas adhering theory to a principle of Truth is, well, more tender in the use of the philosophical knife.    

Feminisms Arent Feminisms

There is a related phenomenon whereby the denial of whole swaths of academic, practiced, or self-declared ‘feminism’ is simply dismissed as not being feminism. Here i mean claims that the ideologies of terfs is not feminism. Or that of gender criticals. Or radical feminism. Or liberal feminism. Or conservative feminism, etc…  

The general claims tend to be of the form ‘those serve/uphold patriarchy, for the following reasons…… and therefore they cannot be understood as feminism’. A feminist theory that isnt perfectly aligned towards the destruction of patriarchy or at least in opposition to it, by definition isnt feminism. Hence noting that this or that theory supposedly upholds patriarchy is already indicative of it not being feminism.

Feminisms Arent Feminisms.  

Which is a pretty obviously flawed conclusion, and it is only striking to me that there are so many people who pretend towards this. However, I want to set aside the somewhat obvious flaws here, the inherent contradiction in the conclusion and ‘how do you know that that feminism upholds patriarchy and not your own’.

Patriarchy Isnt In Opposition To Feminisms, Gender Theory Is Broader Than Both

Far more interesting and relevant than those relatively obvious points, and i vaguely worry that this may come as a shock to people, but feminisms arent defined in opposition to patriarchy, it isnt even necessarily defined as being interested in dismantling patriarchy. Feminisms are defined more as ‘how to best handle womens issues’, where that is understood as achieving the ‘full equality of women within society’, more or less at any rate. 

Of course arguably one can claim that womens issues are best handled by ‘tearing apart patriarchy’ and hence that feminisms ought be focused on that target and aim, but that itself is a pretty big claim, and would depend on how folks even understand patriarchy, let alone how one understands oppression more generally.

In any case, Gender Theory blessedly isnt so limited in its vision or scope.

It could be that patriarchy isnt real, that it is merely an ideal and one that has only varying degrees of affective force in society (fwiw this is my opinion on the matter).

It could be that patriarchy isnt particularly damaging to womens issues, for instance, because it is inherently a part of a heteronormative complex that already includes women within its power structure (fwiw this is my opinion on the matter).

It could also just be that within any given context or culture, patriarchy simply isnt a significant force. Differing cultures do have differing degrees of patriarchal ‘influence’ within them for lack of a better phrase, and differing contexts are more or less relevant for patriarchal influence. This is just boring fact.

Moreover, there are other elements in the world that may be far more pertinent to the oppression of women, and indeed people in general, than patriarchy.  

I mean, for instance, it could very well be the case that say dealing with poverty, racism, or misatopia (hatred of queers) are each more effective and important in dealing with womens issues than dealing with anything even remotely related to patriarchy, simply bc, the argument would run, those things more significantly and broadly impact women’s lives, even as women, and they do so for far more women.

Im not here wanting to make that argument, but it isnt a particularly wild argument to make, and is backed up oft in feminist lit, gender studies lit, and racial studies lit, e.g. non-white feminists have oft remarked how race, not gender, plays a far bigger role in womens lives, much as queer theorists have remarked that heteronormativity is a more affective force on peoples lives than patriarchal oppression, and many a theroist has noted how poverty affects women far across the board than any other factor, let alone patriarchy.

To the point of this post, by not trying to define feminisms in opposition to patriarchy, one isnt forced into the absurd, and indeed highly divisive and counterproductive conclusion that ‘feminisms arent feminisms’.  

You know the one, the feminism that you personally believe.    

This kind of denial of basic reality is a real problem within the feminist communities, and id go so far as to say that it is also a foundational source of gendered divisiveness.

To wit: being concerned bout womens issues doesnt entail being opposed to men, masculinity of any type, nor even patriarchy as such. But by defining feminisms as being ‘opposed to patriarchy’, folks regularly conflate mens issues as being in opposition to womens issues. Or indeed, that mens issues, or queer issues, must be understood through the lens of patriarchy. The former we can see play out in the MRA space, the latter plays out in the MensLib space and most queer spaces.

Interestingly enough, both forms play out in most feminist spaces, as i dont think they are well differentiated along this axis. 

The divisiveness involved, i mean, i neednt really explain that to folks on reddit, perhaps neednt to anyone in the world at this point. But i do want to suggest one reason why it is a real problem; it silos people such that they cannot organize together in practical ways to deal with actual gendered issues. Even simply from a concern about womens issues, such harms women by failing to focus on what are arguably more important issues and aspects that affect women. Again, like poverty for instance.

Such derails any efforts at addressing womens issues firstly by making them bout ideological purity than practical application, and secondly by urging the point of attack and interest as being between those various siloed ideological categorizations, rather than towards the addressing of the issues at all.  

Ironic given feminisms supposed abhorrence of theory in favor of praxis.

Instead, people are set against each other in a culture war that distracts from the reality of what ought be done, even on basic practical levels. Instead of talking bout and addressing healthcare, we talk bout and address ‘patriarchy’, which demonstrably does nothing but create divisiveness; just let me know when you solve that one, and then how we can use that solution to actually address our problems with healthcare, or poverty, or racism, or bigotry, or misandry, or indeed even misogyny  

Whereas a focus on healthcare would actually address womens issues, but also of course mens and queer issues. What is, imho (no scare quotes), interesting bout this take on things is that it offers a rather strikingly simple solution; philosophically knife certain specific modes of thinking bout these issues. Indeed, doing so by noting the absurdity of the conclusions of that position, namely:

Feminisms Arent Feminisms, much as how feminists arent feminists.

Likewise noting the sheer counterproductivity involved by way of defining feminisms in terms of being in opposition to patriarchy; that literally isnt how it is defined, folks can look it up if they want. The notion that ‘patriarchy’ is to blame is just a theory, one that doesnt appear to be working out yall. 

Sorry. 

Gender Theory is broader than feminisms because it is broader than womens issues. Gender Theory is concerned with the roughly equal (equitable) status of everyone predicated upon their gender. Which is important and for that very reason ought not be construed as understanding gender through the lens of feminism, less still through the lens of patriarchy, as either inherently subsumes queer and mens issues as if they were but ancillary support structures for womens issues. 

Some of the proper conceptual frameworks to handle this are already laid out on a bed of roses for yall; Its a Heteronormative Complex With A Significant Queer Component. Its Sex Positivity In Real Life. Its Patriarchal Idealism, Not Patriarchal Realism. Its Predicate Coalition Building. Its The Distinction Between Aesthetical Ethical And The Ethically Obligatory.

We can make better times, but folks gotta be brave enough to do it, and that means utilizing these conceptual tools and others that others have put forth in a cooperative and productive manner.  

Disentangling Political Confusions From Gender Theory

There is a strong connection between this ‘Feminisms Arent Feminisms’ phenomena and the political and practical confusions in the currents. Namely, folks making claims of the ‘Feminisms Arent Feminisms’ sort are in part confusing the politic along gendered lines, e.g. women and queer to the left, men to the right, and strongly related to this, feminisms and queer theories are ‘leftist’ issues, and masculinism are ‘right’ issues. 

These are all of them of course rather obviously false, but the falseness persists due to, well, perhaps merely due to confusions, but i also suspect that there are some non-trivial number of bad faithed actors in especially the online discourses.  

There is a longer piece on this topic here, which i think lays out the point in greater detail and is potentially useful for folks to read as a means of, well, disentangling the current political confusions. Here i want to more directly relate this point in conjunction with the ‘Feminisms Arent Feminisms’ point regarding especially the frankly odd belief that patriarchal theory is what defines feminisms and womens issues, let alone Gender Theory, and the consequential fall out from that, whereby mens and queer issues are either understood as inherently subordinate or antagonistic to womens issues.

The strong relation here is as a matter of political positioning and absurdism on both the right and the left in regards to gendered issues. 

Folks on the right oft bluntly hold feminist positions on a lot of gender related topics. They are, in other words, feminists. Gender criticals, terfs, radical feminists, conservative feminists, libertarian feminists, these are all feminists. However, since at least the 90s feminism as a cultural trope has been adopted as a ‘leftist’ viewpoint, so much so that folks on the right have been reluctant to use it to describe themselves. Indeed, i think that reluctance has transcended the emotional deference, and folks on the right simply do not understand that they are espousing feminist theory to uphold their own positions on things.

They are feminists espousing some feminisms, but they are so politically confused that they dont even seem to understand that this is tru. The same is the case regarding queer theory and queer issues, tho 'imho' i think to a lesser extent as i find, unfortunately, that the right is actually fairly hostile towards queers, whereas they can be quite welcoming of women. 

Conversely, the left is confused regarding what constitutes leftist feminist theory, or more broadly and appropriately, what constitutes leftist gender theory at all. I mean here that due to their false belief that feminisms, womens and queer issues are inherently ‘leftist’ they regularly espouse quite extreme rightwing, conservative, even fascistic positions regarding gendered issues, because to their minds theyve never really delineated between the differing gendered positions as they relate to left / right political divisions.

Consequently, the left broadly speaking tends towards views that are either hostile to or dismissive of mens and queer issues from a leftist perspective on them, positing outright conservative or even fascistic viewpoints as valid because they ‘support women’, and after all, womens issues and supporting women is just an inherently left-wing sort of thing, according to them at any rate.

This is why menslib is acceptable to the left; they subordinate themselves to womens issues, understanding mens and indeed queer issues as being but a lesser subset of issues imposed by ‘patriarchy’.

Which again, is a double oddity here as feminisms, gender theory, and even womens issues are not defined in opposition to patriarchy, as shocking as that may be to some folks. 

One of the major upshots here is that if folks take the time to:

1. Understand that feminisms are a subset of Gender Theory. 
2. Accept that womens issues are not defined in opposition to patriarchy. 
3. Disentangle their own views on gender by delineating between progressive, liberal, and conservative views. Then:  
4.  A fair amount of the divisiveness in the currents can be avoided, at least in terms of gendered issues. Indeed, id go so far as to say that a good deal of productive and meaningful coalition building to address not just gendered issues, but a host of other issues can be thusly achieved.  

Mens issues are not ‘right wing’, womens and queer issues are not ‘left wing’, and Gender Theory is not limited to your favorite pet view regarding patriarchy. 

There is little sense as far as i can tell as to why folks interested in queer issues cannot align themselves with folks interested in mens and womens issues along a progressive framework with whatever specification to that progressivism.

Likewise, there is no obvious or unobvious reason beyond those clearly stated in this and the linked posts, as to why folks interested in mens issues cannot align themselves with folks interested in womens and queer issues along a conservative framework, with whatever specification to that conservatism. 

And of course likewise folks interested in womens issues could certainly align themselves with folks interested in queer and mens issues along a liberal framework, with whatever specification to that liberalism. 

All those political alignments not being specific to gendered concerns per se after all is said and done. 

What stands in the way of that are the political confusions and the entirely odd understanding that Gender Theory or feminisms are defined in opposition to patriarchy.

Id add that folks within the feminisms or gender theory more broadly that believe that feminism or Gender Theory ought be construed as being defined in opposition to patriarchy make up just one branch within Gender Theory and feminisms. A branch that isnt nearly as big as folks seem to think it is. 

Issues of class, race and sexuality, for instance, are far more broadly thought to be more relevant than gender per se even in regards to womens issues per se. And none of those are at all obviously related to patriarchy, tho i am of course familiar with the arguments that try to make them so related, see also Patriarchy As A Dump here. I dont find those arguments convincing at all, to put it mildly. 

This kind of task, the disentangling and realigning of peoples along the gendered issues is something folks can do individually through introspection, good faithed dialoging, and a bit of study on the topics (even just reading the various linked pieces, but id suggest folks read and dialog beyond that), and it is also something folks can do as groups; mods for instance could bother to avoid spreading the divisiveness by being more understanding and clear headed as to the nature of gendered issues, making efforts at inclusion of the various issues across the board predicated upon political dispositions rather than gender per se, and offering a degree of epistemic humility in regards to their own limitations on understanding and validity for the theories they propound and support.    

Rather than i mean the siloing in the currents, the odd beliefs regarding patriarchy as fundamental to gender theory, and the ‘Feminisms Arent Feminisms’ positioning, among other issues alluded to in this post.

These are things folks could discuss within their own groups as a means of better organizing themselves too, and coming to grips with the reality that people dont all think the same.

‘youre not correct, people are just different’ while not universally relevant, is broadly so in the currents of the massively multicultural online reality we are living within.

tho uh, oft the positions folks are holding are pretty wildly inconsistent with their stated intention of view on the matters they pretend towards, as noted in this post and in the many linked posts.

You might even manage to make some friends and build strong coalitions that way;)

If you wanna here a good poetical lyrical to the point, 

Oh, she may be weary

Young girls, they do get weary

Wearing that same old shaggy dress, yeah-yeah-yeah…

…You know she's waiting, just anticipating

Things that she'll never, never, never possess

But while she's there waiting

Try a little tenderness

That's all you've gotta do

It's not just sentimental, no, no, no

She has her grieves and cares

But these soft words, they all spoke so gentle, yeah

It makes it easier, easier to

You won't regret it, no, no

 Happy Holidays Folks.   

Edit; Under Pressure.

"Cause love's such an old-fashioned word

And love dares you to care for

The people on the (People on streets) edge of the night

And love (People on streets) dares you

To change our way of caring about ourselves

This is our last dance

This is our last dance

This is ourselves

Under pressure"

Yall gots bout a month to organize. dont fucking waste it.

also some minor grammatical and formatting changes.