A place to discuss Jazz Theory, and its applications in music.

I would like to preface this by apologising if this comes across as ignorant or condescending. I have already learnt classical theory and am extremely new to jazz theory. I am not good at picking up on social cues, so I am hoping that I do not offend anyone, as I am genuinely struggling with the concepts I refer to here.

I recently began learning jazz theory from Martin Cohen's Udemy course, "The Complete Jazz Theory Course". I have been making some progress, as I have learnt the different types of 7th chords, as well as the alterations one can add to them (For example, on a major seventh chord, one can add a 9, #4, #5 and 6, with one common voicing being to replace the 7 with both the 6 and the 9.).

However, I have been struggling to learn jazz theory, as the way the modes are described is counterintuitive to how I learnt classical theory.

From what I have seen in the lessons I have been taking, jazz describes the different chords in a scale using the different modes of the scale, rather than the degrees of the scale.

One example I learnt is in the "II-V-I" progression. In classical theory, this is described as "Dm-G-C". However, how it is described in jazz theory is "D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian". From what I have heard, this form of teaching jazz is referred to as "mode-scale theory". I have difficulty understanding this model, as it does not line up with what I was taught in classical theory.

The way chord progressions are described in jazz seems to perceive the changing of chords as a shift in the mode, rather than the tonal centre. So, while C Ionian and D Dorian have all of the same notes, in a II chord, the tonal centre is D, and so, it is thought of as being in D Dorian, rather than C Ionian.

Another thing I have learnt is the "II-V" progression, which in C major, would be "Dm-G", or "D Dorian, G Mixolydian". It seemed strange to me that a chord progression in a certain key would not include the tonic chord. However, I believe the key is simply used as reference point for the "II" and "V".

I have also learnt about the "V of V" progression, where one goes from one dominant 7th chord to another. I am unsure as to whether this is the same as a secondary dominant, or if the V one goes to is arbitrary.

Lastly, I have learnt that in jazz, multiple "II-V-I" progressions are often played one after the other. I am unsure as how this works, as it seems as though this would mean that the key of the song was changing every three chords. I am also uncertain as to the way in which one transitions from one "II-V-I" to the other. Is the key one modulates to arbitrary, or is it dependent upon the chord that comes before it.

I greatly appreciate any advice, and I would like to again apologise if anything I have said comes across as ignorant or condescending.

I have a copy of The Real Christmas Book and I'm looking at Meredith Willson's "It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas."

The way it's notated in this Real Book looks like AAB with a D.S. al coda at the first A that leads to the end of the second A. So, that basically looks like AABAA.

I want to make my own chart of this, so I started but noticed it might not be AABA.

Between the two A sections, the melody and changes are different enough that I will refer to them as A1 and A2. Certainly, every version I've heard ends with A2 but they don't cycle through with a strict AABA structure and I'm not quite comfortable saying for sure the form is A1 A2 B A2.

I made a spreadsheet comparing the form of seven different recordings of "It's Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas."

Side-note: It's written in the Real Book with a 6-bar B section and most every recording follows that. The one exception I found amongst these recordings is the Perry Como recording which has an 8-bar B section and is arguably the most popular version.

With singers of this era, I know the recording will almost always follow the form. Like if you listen to a tune sung by Frank or Ella, it will be AABA, strings take two A’s, return to sing BA. That, or it will be AABABA so it’s not too short.

So far, I don't really know what to call the form. Maybe it's AAB but when you know you're gonna end the tune you for sure play A2?

What do you think?

I've been playing around with an outside soloing concept. Essentially, I take a triad type and figure out all of the triads I can play in a key with an allowance of up to one non-diatonic note. For instance, in the key of G major, with that allowance, I can play; G major, A major, B major, C major, D major, E major, and F major. As in the example I just gave, I've noticed that sometimes the available chords by that rule set spell out a different scale. So, while improvising in the key of G major, I can play a major triad from any of the notes from the C major scale, and each of those triads will have only one non-diatonic note or be entirely diatonic. For the sake of transposition, you could say that while soloing in any major key you can play major triads from any note in a major scale up a 4th from the original key, and those triads will either be diatonic or have one non-diatonic note. This has been helpful while soloing because I can use the other scale as a reference structure, but it isn't just a substitution or superimposition because I'm not playing in the other key (obviously this produces notes that aren't wholly diatonic to any major key). I've just been calling them reference structures but I'm curious if there's an official theoretical name for this concept? Hopefully I've explained it clearly.

Edit: im not asking how to get good at solfege. I can already do it

While improvising, would it be helpful to be able to sing at the same time? I dont mean singing out solfege/numbers (do,re,mi/1,2,3), but random lyrics i come up with? So either singing the same melody as what I'm playing on piano, or improvising w voice AND improvising with piano at the same time.

Asking cus when I tried doing that, I couldnt hear the names of the notes I was singing like I usually do when I just audiate, so it was hard to copy what I was singing with the instrument.

Like are you supposed to be able to inprovise without imagining the names of the notes (so,la,do etc) ? Or are you always going to need to hear stufd like "so, la, do" as youre playing. If so, how in the world do people play multiple phrases/lines at once.

Tl:dr when artists like tyler the creator play piano live and sing at the same time (and its improvised to be different from the og song), did they do it by muscle memory, or can they easily improvise and sing at the same time?

Today is so nice because this is my first time to learn a jazz piano piece. The jazz piece is called just friends. They said it's easy for beginners but for me as a beginner it's quite difficult. But I slowly recognize about 2-5-1 and the half step movement of voice tones. As of now I only played the chords and practice 3 note voicing.

BTW the book that I used is called "The jazz book" by mark levine. They said it's good. And now I can approve it. Is it for you? You just need to have a little bit knowledge about music theory (There is also a small portion of music theory at the start of the book it covers intervals and scales).

This is my difficulty for now:

1. Inversion of voice notes
2. Timing or time signature (For me this is the difficult part for now since I dont have background of this I just play instrument right away)
3. Sight reading
4. Identifying notes of a chord (when I move chords especially when it is 3 note voicing)

These are my weaknesses for now but I'm still developing these and I know it takes time (like ear training also).

BTW would it be good if I start an email newsletter to keep you updated about my progress? I mean I just want to connect and build relationship with you guys (just a survey).

I'm also a self taught so If you can help me solve my pain points that would be highly appreciated.

Anyways thank you so much for reading my progress. And thats my progress for today.

There’s this amazing chord progression I heard recently, and I need help figuring it out what it was. as sort of like a turnaround. Very 1-6-2-5-ish, like you do at the end of the A section in “what a wonderful world” but way more outside. It was sort of Coltrane-ish. Anybody know what I mean?

Back in school, my friends and I would jam on guitars like this: if a song was in a key like C major or A minor, we’d just use the A minor scale for the entire song, no matter the chord changes. Same thing for other keys—Em scale for G major or E minor, etc. It worked well for basic pop and rock songs.

Looking back, I guess you could call that modal (?) soloing: we were basically locked into an Aeolian scale for the whole song, and it just worked.

(And of course, for the bluesier stuff, we’d just use the pentatonic scale over the whole song.)

Now that I’m trying to learn jazz, it feels like a huge leap. Even the most basic soloing seems to require things like targeting 3rds and 7ths, bracketing them, or at least outlining chord tones—and honestly, it’s so much harder, let alone the intermediate and advanced stuff.

So my question is: do (beginning) jazz players ever revert to just locking into a modal scale (like a simplified Ionian or Dorian) if they lose track of the changes mid-song?

Can somebody give me a road map to learn jazz standard. I hava a pdf of "the real book" this is a jazz book. And as of now i'm a beginner I can understand it a bit. But when i compare it to live performance of the artist, it is a bit played different and there are symbols that I don't know is there books or resources you can recommend where I can learn the basic?

I am studying Barry’s half step rules. I get that on dominant 7 chord and major 6 chord. But I don’t understand clearly on minor tonic.

If I see a minor tonic chord as minor 6. Can I play the line by putting a half step between 5^(th) and 6^(th), similar to major 6^(th)?

If I see a minor tonic chord as mM7 chord (melodic minor). Can I put a half step (rhythmic note) between Maj7th and 1^(st)?

I heard some would choose harmonic minor for minor tonic chord. So, there are 3 choices for minor tonic chord (m6/ melodic minor/ harmonic minor)?

I am pianist, I also got some questions on comping the half step rules.

I learnt that I could play the important minor for dominant 7, like Gm6 on C7.

Can I play lines using Gm6 half step rules (half step between 5^(th) and 6^(th))?

Or can I play lines using C7 half step rules while comping by Gm6 diminished scale (Gm6, Adim)?

For minor 251, | Dm7b5 | G7 | Cm |

If I want to use G7alt, then what I’m comping could be | Fm6 | Abm6 | Cm6 |

But can I play G7 Phrygian dominant half step lines while comping as | Fm6 | Abm6 | ?

Or I can play | Fm6 lines | Am6 lines | Cm6 | ?

I am a bit confused for applying Barry’s method on single lines vs harmonic.

I am really amazed by people who just listen to a song then transcribe it immediately ( I know some of them have perfect pitch or developed relative pitch) how do you guys train your ear to transcribe easilly? Or how do you guys do transcribing. I want to develop this skill because It seems that is also the other way to develop relative pitch.

Hey Jazz flutists, I’m a student learning jazz flute in college, I’m on my second year of learning about jazz, I don’t have lessons specifically catered to jazz— only jazz combo groups. My lesson teacher is classical and I’ve played a lot of jazz tunes and standards, but honestly I don’t know how to practice for improvisation. I don’t know how to execute falls/glissandos on flute that you hear great jazz flutists play, I do not know how to get that jazz flute sound or how to solo comprehensively despite knowing the form -because- I don’t know how to practice this style besides just playing the chord tones over and over, as practicing that hasn’t really helped me connect my lines from one to the other while improvising.

In my college I’m in this very awkward position cause while my peers have lesson teachers experienced in jazz to show them and teach them, I do not. YouTube does not have much content/lectures for Jazz flute that aren’t just someone playing scales or improvising over songs.

I transcribe by ear, but I don’t know what to extract from that other than I can play it and trying to find out what someone else plays there.

I listen to many jazz masters/greats’ records consistently.

The songs I’m given in class are only getting more difficult and when I reach out to my jazz professor I’m told I can’t expect to be great in a day, but I’m not expecting that, I’m just lost I’m trying to comprehend things.

Also, when people associate a scale with a chord I do not know how that is done so I’ve researched and was told that I can use Mixolydian scales for Dominant 7 chords, but how do you reach that conclusion or even learn to know what chords call for what scales?

My Professor says “use this blues scale” but how does one find out what scales to use over these chords?

If any jazz musicians/jazz flutists can lead me to some resources or explain some of the things mentioned above I’d appreciate it so much.

Can somebody explain to me why G7 resolve to C major. And it sound so good. What's the theory behind it? Can somebody give me more clear explanation about tension and release

I saw it on youtube but the definition is unclear can somebody explain?